A Milwaukee Road Non-confrontational thread.

[samfp1943]

This will (or should be) an interesting thread to watch..
Certainly, the Fate of the MILW, and its legacy, are topics of spirit and passion, as we have seen here.

Sam

[solzrules]

I think this is a great idea. The previous thread was arguing about freight rates from 30 years ago, and it got a little boring. I know nothing (firsthand) of the Milwaukee Road, but after reading a ton of books and traveling across the country looking for the remains I got some kind of okay pictures. I will post them here later.

[Anonymous]

[|)]

[kenneo]

The real problem was certain "usual suspects" could not let any "fact" or "opinion" opposite to their own could not leave "those that were not in complete agreement" to their facts and/or opinions. My experience is that, with incredibly few exceptions, there are so many different parts to any subject, all of them will be correct to one degree or another.

We need to remember that, and then put that into practice. That is one of the real benefits of these forums - we receive all of the benefits of all of these varried opinions and this in turn makes us all better for the reading and posting.

[fuzzybroken]

Actually, here's a good question to go along with this. I've always understood that CMC Heartland (aka CMC Heartless) was the surviving "corporate parent" of the Milwaukee Road (railroad). Yet a recent newspaper article mentions that they "took over" the real estate operations of the bankrupt railroad.

Being a newspaper article, I'm inclined to think that they're full of ... , but I'm always up for learning something new.

BTW, the article mentioned that CMC sold the last of its land in the Milwaukee area in December...

[solzrules]

Okay here we go.
If these don't turn out please let me know!


Here's Loweth substation in July, 2005. This was in the middle of nowhere, Montana. I think it is amazing that the railroad trucked craftsmen all the way out here to build this. At one time they must have really bought into the electification thing.



This is the view west of Loweth. Pretty desolate. Check out that signal mast!



Another signal mast, July, 2005



I caught this bandit in Wauwatosa on the CP Line (former MILW ROAD)

(By the way I apologize if some of these are repeats. I will have a few new ones later.)



This bandit was in Sturtevant in April, 2003.



This covered hopper was on the DME in July, 2005. You can see the weld marks where the placard for "America's Resourceful Railroad" was.

Okay, here a some new ones.



This is a caboose I found in the back yards of the rr museum at Union, Illinois.



I know this is a crappy picture, but I was really young and had no idea what I was looking at. This is a MILW RD. SDL-39 in Theinsville, WI. I think the year was something like 1987 but I may be wrong. The loco already has Wisconsin Central reporting marks on it. Last I read, these engines were heading to Brazil.



Here I am again as a very young kid in Heartland, WI. This is the westbound Empire builder on the double tracked Milw Rd mainline. Today, the line is single tracked and the depot you see to the left of the train is a whole lot more decrepit. The siding in front of me still exists. It serves a WE Energies electrical switch yard for the delivery of transformers.



This DME unit was a former Milwaukee Road SD 40-2. When the Soo gave these locos back the leasing company in the late 80's they got sold to Helm leasing who rebuilt them (I think). Helm sold them to DME and that is where I caught this one.
Waseca, Minnesota, July, 2005



Here is my loving wife helping out in Montevideo, Minnesota. The date you see is the date stamp in a concrete footing for a roundhouse that used to stand here. From what I was able to read the roundhouse was out of service sometime in the 50's. In case it is a little fuzzy the date is 1906 (point of reference - the Titanic was still a big pile of steel sheets at this point!)



I THINK this is a restored Milw Road boxcar at Montevideo. I find it hard to believe the lettering would remain that crisp 20 years after operation. July, 2005



This is an abandoned station spur in Mobridge, South Dakota. July, 2005. Hard to believe that the Olympian Hiawatha was here not 60 years ealier.....



The Milwaukee Road's arch-nemesis, the BNSF, travels on the transcon rails today. Here is a unit corn train on the move at Beebe, South Dakota. Apparently there was the potential to earn some money with this line. Ah well. How do I know it was a corn train? The corn was blowing off like snow as the train went by! Kinda neat.



Here is the bridge at Mobridge, SD. Some have argued that this was the begining of the Milwaukee's "great mistake". If the railroad had not built any farther than this they may be around today. That is a debatable point, however. July, 2005



This is taken in Terry, MT. This is approaching the end of the line on the old Milwaukee Road transcon as it is know today. The mileage sign reads 1077.1. We're a long way from Chicago, baby!

Okay, that is enough for tonight. If I get a chance tomorrow, I will throw up some pics from the second half of our journey into Idaho.

[Murphy Siding]

solzrules: Enjoyed the photos, thanks. About 5 years ago, I was at a wedding in Mobridge. I tried to find the wye for the(long gone) branchline to Faith and Isabell just west of the river, with no luck. I assumed it should have been just accross the bridge, before the line starts climbing. In hindsight, I would bet it's under the river/lake, as the line was gone before the Missouri was dammed up. I *think* that is the third bridge at Mobridge.

The SDL-39: Local legend was that they were ordered for use on light duty branch lines in the Dakotas, but nearly every other picture I see shows them sonewhere in Wisconsin. Anybody know what the range of those beasts was?

[solzrules]

QUOTE: Originally posted by fuzzybroken

Actually, here's a good question to go along with this. I've always understood that CMC Heartland (aka CMC Heartless) was the surviving "corporate parent" of the Milwaukee Road (railroad). Yet a recent newspaper article mentions that they "took over" the real estate operations of the bankrupt railroad.

Being a newspaper article, I'm inclined to think that they're full of ... , but I'm always up for learning something new.

BTW, the article mentioned that CMC sold the last of its land in the Milwaukee area in December...

I also heard that CMC/Heartland Partners was trying to finally liquidate itself but there were some enviromental liabilities that were preventing it from doing so.

[MP173]

Solz:

Nice shots. I will be good on this forum.

ed

[jimrice4449]

The shot of the Milw wide vision caboose is interesting in as much as Milw only owned two. They were tacked onto a BN order to serve as part of Milw's contribution to a joint coal unit train. Odly enough i worked on one of them from Missoula to Spokane, but after the Milw shut down and I was working for the BN. It still had Milw paint but I don't recall if it had been numbered into the BN series.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jimrice4449

The shot of the Milw wide vision caboose is interesting in as much as Milw only owned two. They were tacked onto a BN order to serve as part of Milw's contribution to a joint coal unit train. Odly enough i worked on one of them from Missoula to Spokane, but after the Milw shut down and I was working for the BN. It still had Milw paint but I don't recall if it had been numbered into the BN series.

MILW and BN ran a joint coal unit train? Where at?

[solzrules]

I think it was out of Gascoyne, North Dakota. I remember seeing some pictures in a book somehwere. They were using bathtub gondolas that were retro-fitted with a homemade cover to keep the coal dust from blowing out in transit.

[MichaelSol]

Colstrip eastbound and Gascoyne to Big Stone. BN originated the train at Colstrip, and Milwaukee took the train at Miles City, one of the Eleven Western Gateways under the BN merger. Each company supplied half the power for a run-through operation. The Colstrip trains generated about $7 million a year for Milwaukee, and the Gascoyne coal trains about $6.5 million.

Bechtel Corp. designed the car covers for Milwaukee and I believe the covers were part of the order for the coal cars.

[solzrules]

Isn't Bechtel a construction outfit? I didn't know they messed with railroad equipment.

[MichaelSol]

Well, they were an "engineering and construction" company. That must have been the engineering part. According to their website, they got started in railroading: "In 1998, our organization observed 100 years of building. It’s a legacy that began with W.A. Bechtel’s work grading railroad beds in 1898 and continues to this very moment on hundreds of job sites around the world."

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol

Colstrip to Big Stone Power Plant. BN originated the train at Colstrip, and Milwaukee took the train at Miles City, one of the Eleven Western Gateways under the BN merger. Each company supplied half the power for a run-through operation. It generated about $2.5 million a year for Milwaukee.

Bechtel Corp. designed the car covers for Milwaukee and I believe the covers were part of the order for the coal cars.

BNSF still does that run. I hear them all day and night when I'm in Aberdeen,S.D. The cars with covers must be long gone.

[n012944]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by jimrice4449

The shot of the Milw wide vision caboose is interesting in as much as Milw only owned two. They were tacked onto a BN order to serve as part of Milw's contribution to a joint coal unit train. Odly enough i worked on one of them from Missoula to Spokane, but after the Milw shut down and I was working for the BN. It still had Milw paint but I don't recall if it had been numbered into the BN series.

MWK and BN ran a joint coal unit train? Where at?

In 1978 the MILW had two run thru coal trains with the BN. The first called Columbia I was interchanged with the MILW at St. Paul to serve the Portage, WI. plant. The second, called Columbia II, was interchanged with the MILW at Council Bluffs, IA. and also ran to Portage, WI.


Bert

[Anonymous]

As a former employee in the engineering department in Aberdeen and later in Chicago, I can tell you the following:

Fuzzybroker: Chicago Milwaukee Corporation (CMC) was the surviving parent company that held all of the land that the Soo Line did not get with the purchase of the railroad. There was a lot of valuable land. The asset purchase agreement was not as clear as it should have been and there was some disagreement as to what land should have gone with the railroad and what was to remain.

Solzrules: NIce pictures.

Murphy Siding: The Faith and Isabel lines lasted until near the end. When the Oahe dam was built around the early 1970's parts of the lines were raised to get them above water level. The bridge you see in the picture above is the new bridge that was built at the same time. We started running coal trains between Gascoyne and Big Stone about 1973. We extended several siding then to accomodate the longer coal trains.

By the way some of us former employees get together every year for a picnic and we will meet again here in the Chicago area in a couple weeks.

Larry

[PwdOpd]

Murphy Siding - One question you asked - did anyone ride the Miwaukee? I'll answer that one. Somtime between 1960 and 1967 when we lived in Huron, S.D. OI took a trip to Dayton. Ohio. Rode the Milwaukee from Aberdeen to Chicago. Morning Hiawatha from Minneapolis to Chicago and the Afternoon Hiawatha Chicago to Minneapolis. It was in September when the trees were in their best color and I rode upstairs in the full length dome car and just really enjoyed the passing scenery. It was one of the smoothest rides I have ever had on a train, and we were on time to the minute in both directions.
Also rode the Milwaukee from Sioux Falls to Chicago and return. Ride wasn't quite as smooth, but we were on time both ways.
By the way, I worked at Union Station in Omaha for 8 years and can say that the Midwest Hiawatha from Chicago to Omaha was an on-time train.

Paul

[Murphy Siding]

PwdOpd: I'm curious why you would go to Aberdeen or Sioux Falls to go by MILW, when CNW ran right through Huron?

[PwdOpd]

Murphy Siding

Good question! I think I have a good answer - Northwestern had quit their passenger service through Huron the year before we moved there.

Paul

[chad thomas]

As long as we have a non confrontational Milwakee thread I have a question. What kind of traffic controll did the Milwakee Road use? Both on it's transcon and the branches.

[solzrules]

I think the transcon was ABS territory.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cnwrwyman

Murphy Siding: The Faith and Isabel lines lasted until near the end. When the Oahe dam was built around the early 1970's parts of the lines were raised to get them above water level. The bridge you see in the picture above is the new bridge that was built at the same time. We started running coal trains between Gascoyne and Big Stone about 1973. We extended several siding then to accomodate the longer coal trains.

Larry

I guess my hunch was right, that I was looking in the wrong place for the lines. The old road beds are under water! From the lay of the land, the branch line must follow the creek/lake west of the bridge?
Do you recall if there was much of anything shipped off the Faith and Isabell lines? That's mostly dry, hilly cattle country. I never quite understood why they built those branches, that seemed to go no where.

[Murphy Siding]

Just did a little snooping on Google and Terraserver, and found the old branch line roadbed west of the Mobridge bridge-pretty much in plain sight. The bridge(or causeway?) accross the creek/lake is still there, although it appears to have a section removed to accomodate the states large fleet of walleye seekers. Guess it's not that easy to find some things from the shoulder of a highway! [D)]

Another long gone section of MILW track I've tried to find evidence of, was a *short cut*, between Hudson, South Dakota, and Rock Valley, Iowa. I've read hints of it's existence, but have been unable to find it ob a map.

[Anonymous]

Two MILW trips I took as a kid were from Davis Jct., IL. One was a roundtrip to Denver on the City of Denver overnight. The other was a roundtrip to Chicago. Don't remember which City train we took, but I remember spending time in the dome car. We went to Stouffer's Restaurant upon arrival in Chicago, and then shopped at Marshall Fields on State St. Had a snack in the Walnut Room. All fond memories.

Also rode Milw commuter train out to Deerfield from Union Sta.

[Anonymous]

Murphy Siding. The Faith and Isabel lines were not very productive and probably should have been abandoned earlier. Abandonment may have been delayed because a large area would have been without rail service but there is no service now anyway.

Larry

[Anonymous]

Chad Thomas. It has been a while so my memory may not be completely accurate and there may have been

[Anonymous]

Chad Thomas. It has been a while so my memory may not be completely accurate and there may have been some changes since I was there. The main line from Minneapolis to Aberdeen was mostly single track automatic block. There had previously been some double track but as I recall most of the second main track had been removed. I don't recall if we had any CTC in those areas where the second main track was removed. As I recall much of the track from Mobridge to Miles City was controlled automatic block. That is, the dispatcher controlled the signals as with CTC but the switches were manual. Although controlled automatic block was more efficient that regular automatic block, I understand there was not a lot of it and possibly it was later prohibited except in those areas where it had already been installed.

Larry

[MichaelSol]

As a feature of his epic tour of America, John Gunther described the "velvet line of the Milwaukee Road" into Chicago as smoother than any other railroad's he had ever been on. John Gunther, Inside the USA (New York: Harper & Brothers, 1947) p. 910.

[CMSTPP]

Well to start things out I have been around quite a bit of Milwaukee equipment. The Wisconsin Great northern in Spooner, Wisconsin has a milwaukee road SW1. It is in running shape and now runs a passenger out of Spooner. Of course If you live in Duluth(Like I do) or if you have visited Duluth you would know Box cab EF2 # 10200. This locomotive was given the title "The largest electrical locomotive in the World." That was in 1912. Probably some larger electric locomotives than that now.
Since My dad worked for the WC I did get to see the Famous SDL39 running. But believe it or not the locomotives have quite the railroad to run. They are well taken care of and look good. The railroad that now runs them is called Frepasa. The railroad is actually located in Chile. You can find it on the internet.
Unforunately I was born just a few years after the Milwaukee disappeared so I didn't get the true look of the railroad. But It remains my favorite railroad and I am working on getting an actual locomotive. There are still quite a few of milwaukee road units floaten around and I am hoping to "aquire" one of them.
Unit coal trains now. I have a video from the early 1980s that got some good footage of the railroading out of ST. Paul, Minnesota. There in one of the scenes there is a unit coal train with some U30Cs. Two of the three units were Milwaukee road. The lead unit being the BN U30C. There quite the sight to behold.
Hopefully this sums some of it.

James

[jimrice4449]

The Idaho Divn was ABS/train order except for the stretch from Plummer Jct to Marengo. The line from Plummer Jct to Spokane had ABS because of the psgr trains that ran to Spokane on that line and then went on trackage rights on the UP to Marengo.
There was a bad head-on on that stretch of dark track about 1977 or so. A westbound ran a meet at Pandora and met an eastbound on single track in a 20 ft deep cut in basalt rock on a curve. Head brakeman was killed and engineer on the eastbound lost both legs
On a more cheerfull note towards the end of WWII my father treated me to a week end to remember. He traveled a lot on his job and had a convention to go to in Minneapolis. Ordinarily he would have left on Sunday but this trip he left on Saturday and took me along. I couldn't have been more than 10 or 11 at the time. We left Chicago on the Afternoon Hiawatha which I knew from my frequent visits to the Canal St. crossing was usually powered by one of those new diesels. Imagine my disapointment when we passed under the throat of the CNW depots and the lingering steam indicated that we had one of the F-7 Hudsons that stood in for the diesels from time to time. What do dumb kids know? At this time the Milw had a chart on the back of the public timetable w/ a picture of a milepost so you could convert seconds elapsed into MPH. We exceeded 100 MPH on three places. Once btween Cicago and Milwaukee and twice across central Wisconsin. He sent me back the next day on the CNW 400, which had a speedometer in the rear of the observation car, and it registred 112 MPH going through the suburbs between Milwaukee and Chicago (and this was in the days when crossing gates were operated by hydraulic pumps from towers and the crossing gaurd lit a seies of red lanterns on the gates at night.)

[Zwingle]

QUOTE: Another long gone section of MWK track I've tried to find evidence of, was a *short cut*, between Hudson, South Dakota, and Rock Valley, Iowa. I've read hints of it's existence, but have been unable to find it on a map.

Here's an 1881 map showing that line, although apparently back then "Hudson" was called "Eden."

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/S?ammem/gmd:@FILREQ(@field(SUBJ+@1(Chicago,+Milwaukee,+and+St++Paul+Railway+Company+))+@FIELD(COLLID+rrmap))

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by deepspire

QUOTE: Another long gone section of MWK track I've tried to find evidence of, was a *short cut*, between Hudson, South Dakota, and Rock Valley, Iowa. I've read hints of it's existence, but have been unable to find it on a map.

Here's an 1881 map showing that line, although apparently back then "Hudson" was called "Eden."

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/S?ammem/gmd:@FILREQ(@field(SUBJ+@1(Chicago,+Milwaukee,+and+St++Paul+Railway+Company+))+@FIELD(COLLID+rrmap))

Thanks for the info, but I can't get the link to work.[V] Can you double check it for me, that it works on your end? Thanks

[kenneo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by deepspire

QUOTE: Another long gone section of MWK track I've tried to find evidence of, was a *short cut*, between Hudson, South Dakota, and Rock Valley, Iowa. I've read hints of it's existence, but have been unable to find it on a map.

Here's an 1881 map showing that line, although apparently back then "Hudson" was called "Eden."

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/S?ammem/gmd:@FILREQ(@field(SUBJ+@1(Chicago,+Milwaukee,+and+St++Paul+Railway+Company+))+@FIELD(COLLID+rrmap))

Thanks for the info, but I can't get the link to work.[V] Can you double check it for me, that it works on your end? Thanks

I had trouble, also, because only part of the link auto-formatted.

What you need to do is highlight the entire URL and then open a NEW browser window. Paste the URL into the address bar of this new browser window and select it. It should open then.

[zardoz]

solzrules,
the photos are great! The first one is my fav of the bunch. Very nice.

[Murphy Siding]

kenneo: Thanks I got it to work. Now there, is a fun link to explore.

[packers97]

GOOD IDEA. Its a shame several people continue to ruin good threads with a 5th grade playground mentality.
Here is a questoin: A few years ago I trucked around the UP (Michigan) and specifically went looking for the republic mine north of Channing. Couldn't seem to find it. Anybody know how to get to it or have pics of the operations in that area? The CNW yard - below the milwaukee line in channing looks like it must have been interesting.

[Zwingle]

Sorry for the partial link. I wonder why only part of it linked? hmm.. I should have checked the post.

I do like that site. I can get lost in there for hours looking at those old maps. [:)]

[Murphy Siding]

I figered out how to make it work, thanks to kenneo. I did find the map showing the line from Rock Valley, Iowa, to Eden(Hudson), S.D. That must have been abandoned a long time ago. Curiously, I've traced another abandoned line that went from Renner to Madison, S.D., that one appears in old timetables, but never on a map either. I think it went out in the late 30's.

[coborn35]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CMSTPP

Well to start things out I have been around quite a bit of Milwaukee equipment. The Wisconsin Great northern in Spooner, Wisconsin has a milwaukee road SW1. It is in running shape and now runs a passenger out of Spooner. Of course If you live in Duluth(Like I do) or if you have visited Duluth you would know Box cab EF2 # 10200. This locomotive was given the title "The largest electrical locomotive in the World." That was in 1912. Probably some larger electric locomotives than that now.
Since My dad worked for the WC I did get to see the Famous SDL39 running. But believe it or not the locomotives have quite the railroad to run. They are well taken care of and look good. The railroad that now runs them is called Frepasa. The railroad is actually located in Chile. You can find it on the internet.
Unforunately I was born just a few years after the Milwaukee disappeared so I didn't get the true look of the railroad. But It remains my favorite railroad and I am working on getting an actual locomotive. There are still quite a few of milwaukee road units floaten around and I am hoping to "aquire" one of them.
Unit coal trains now. I have a video from the early 1980s that got some good footage of the railroading out of ST. Paul, Minnesota. There in one of the scenes there is a unit coal train with some U30Cs. Two of the three units were Milwaukee road. The lead unit being the BN U30C. There quite the sight to behold.
Hopefully this sums some of it.

James

It is painted GN however.

[CMSTPP]

Well ya what ever you want to say..but..Painting a Milwaukee road SW1 is incorrect. There are some differences between the two railroads. But yes the locomotive is painted GN but in its years it is still a milwaukee road unit.

James

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jimrice4449
There was a bad head-on on that stretch of dark track about 1977 or so. A westbound ran a meet at Pandora and met an eastbound on single track in a 20 ft deep cut in basalt rock on a curve. Head brakeman was killed and engineer on the eastbound lost both legs.

I don't think that stretch was dark. The westbound crew had fallen asleep.

[solzrules]

Okay, I got some more pics from my honeymoon posted here, I hope you find them interesting!



This is a picture of the final end of the line of Milwaukee Road trackage. The line swoops off to the left to tie into the BN on the left side of the picture. If you look closely, you will see a line of telegraph poles extending off into the distance. This represents where the old PCE continued on to Miles City, MT.



Here I am just outside of Miles City, MT. The mainline is still in place at this location to serve a few (VERY few) customers in Miles City. The section of railroad that is left here is in very rough shape (remember there were maintenance issues in the 70's already). The Sw. stand you see next to me was a hallmark of the Milwaukee Road-the feathered chevron. In this case it has been painted red with a white dot in the center, but in old days it would have had red and white stripes on it. I wanted to take it with me, but that may have been considered vandalism![:D]

BTW the big grease streak on my shirt is from lying down on the tracks to snap the picture of the mileage marker showing 1077 miles from chicago - see the pictures I posted earlier. Needless to say, that didn't come out in the wash and that shirt is a good 'ol dirty work shirt now.



I found a bridge in Miles City that has the original trackage still in place on it. This is at the west end of town. Couldn't believe it, as I thought all tracks had been removed at this point.



This was taken at the extreme west end of Miles City. The mainline tracks that are still in place are lost in the weeds. I wasn't able to find the precise end of them because they went into private property. They didn't appear to go on much farther. Hard to believe that this was a class 1 railroad at one time.

After this we were able to follow the row for quite a while, mostly from Highway 12, I think. At times, it looked like a railbanked corridor - bridges in place, grade intact, even some ballast in places. At other times, it was hard to decipher where the railroad had run. In some places, ranchers have dug out the elevated row to gain access to their lands. In other places, you can see the log-pylon bridges that were used extensively by the Milwaukee. Their decks have been removed, but the logs are still driven in the earth. Made for a sad sight.



After a while, we came to Harlowtown. This town seemed to want to maintain some of it's heritage. There was a museum of sorts down in the valley where the railroad had its yard, shops, and depot. All the people we met there were very friendly. Seemed like a real nice place to live! Anyway, I saw up on the hill this boxcar which had been converted into a storage shed. I further recognized it as a Milwaukee shops homemade car with the rib sides - a Milwaukee shops trademark. There were several of these in town.



Here is the depot at Harlowtown that has been restored (on the outside at least). The train order signal (I think) is still standing and to the extreme right is the X3800 electic switcher that ran from an extension cord that served in Deer Lodge.



This is a big wedge plow behind the depot. That must have been a sight seeing this cut through a drift or two!



This was the beautifully restored boxcab electric in downtown Harlowtown. It is very prominent. When you drive into town from either direction your eyes are immediately drawn to it. It was nice to see the town thought so much of the railroad, but I am sure the town suffered a great deal when the railroad left. Here we stopped for gas and I met a gentleman in the store with two loaded guns on the hip. I gained an even greater appreciation for Montana. Gotta love a state that actually respects its citizens enough to believe they can make descisions for themselves! Not like Wisconsin!



Two Dot, MT. This was the site of a substation and several railroad buildings. When we were there in late July, 2005, nothing was really left. The substation stood in the right side of this picture, and I found some footings for the structure, but that was about it. Some of the power line equipment on the right side of the picture is vintage, but not all of it. This town was featured in the Milwaukee Road's Historical Associations magazine "The Milwaukee Railroader". Otherwise I wouldn't have even stopped. Again, when the railroad left this town the town pretty much ceased to function.



After Two Dot, the railroad left Hwy. 12 and we had to turn south to stay with it. We came to Martinsdale, and found the above seen. The depot was standing, very dicrepit, along with the train order signal. There was even a shed off to the left of the depot. I am not sure what these were used for, hand cars maybe?



This fellow must have salvaged what he could when the railroad left town in Deer Lodge. The signal in the left of the picture was even working!!!!



This is the restored Little Joe in Deer Lodge. It looks great in the 1950's era paint scheme! Unfortunately we got there late in the day so the light wasn't too good for a picture. Oh well. Next time.
[V]



This was the depot in Deer Lodge. It has been converted into a church, so my wife and I coined the term "Cheapo"! The mainline ran right were the minivan is parked.



After Deer Lodge, we got into the Bitteroot range of the Rocky Mountains. This was absolutely beautiful country. It wasn't commercialized or anything like Colorado outside of Denver. The mainline through extreme western Montana has ben turned into a road of sorts, and we were able to take the truck on it for several miles. This is a picture of the ROW as it winds through the mountains. I-90 is nearby and at times the freeway passes overhead.



The railroad was not too tidy when it pulled the plug during 1981 and 1982. There are a lot of ties and debris that was left. I helped myself to several spikes and even a few tie plates. There are signal pedestals all over the line, but the signal masts have been removed. This is one tie that I found which was still pretty solid. There are ties on the Wisconsin and Southern by my house that look a lot worse then this one.



Here are some more discarded ties in the Bitteroots. My wife laughed when I told her to saddle the **** up and start throwing them in the truck. I guess we have some stuff to work on yet.



Here I am standing on a signal pedestal. It was easy to see where passing sidings were because there were several pedestal footings in close proximity to each other.



Here is my wife standing next to a pedestal with a mast base still attached to it.



Being an electrician, I was curious if the signaling cable was still in the ground. In this shot, you see the top of a pedestal with two cables coming up through the base. They are multi-conductor cables made out of aluminum. They were cut with some kind of saw when the mast was removed. They also were of a very old cloth on rubber construction- I'm guessing 1940's or so. When they installed the ABS signals I don't think there was any upgrading that occured after that.



Here was one of the intact bridges I mentioned earlier. It almost seems like they are ready for the DME to roll right in and throw some ties down! (Wishful thinking perhaps?) As for structural integrity, I figure if they can hold some SD40-2's then they should be able to handle my puny truck.



The country around Avery, Idaho was majestic. It was unspoiled for the most part. This isn't a train picture per se, but down in the valley behind one of these mountains in this picture the ROW still exists. I can see why this was a railfans' railroad, because orange and black diesels winding around in this scenery would have been absolutely spectacular! My truck was able to climb up this mountain, (it got a little hot due to the thin air) and we got some great pictures off of a ATV trail. A word of warning to you adventerous flatlanders - a country road in WI is a freeway compared to a country road in Idaho!



In western Montana I was able to find some evidence of the electric operation. This is north of Deer Lodge. What you are looking at is the remains of a cantery pole. The angular shaped pole was actually a "stub" the railroad installed in the 30's to avoid having to replace the whole pole. The original cantery pole is now shorter then the stub in. Looks like most of these were cut with chainsaws.



One goal I had was to find a tunnel the PCE went through. I was able to find this one north of Deer Lodge. It was a short one and the MRL tunnel was not a 100 feet to the east of this one, but it would have to do. Most of the tunnels are inaccesible, and I had to bend the rules a little bit to get at this one. It made for a great picture! The soot from 70 years of locos going through is still thick on the ceiling.

Well, that's pretty much it. My honeymoon (following the Milwaukee Road at least) was over at St. Maries, Idaho. I hope to return again soon and pick up the ROW and follow it to the coast. All in all, it was a very sad trip.

The Milwaukee Road seemed to follow a course that avoided most population centers. It was almost always headed due west, turning south a few times in western Montana. During a substantial part of the trip in Montana the MRL was never far away, further testament to the fact that the PCE was in competiton with several railroads. I certainly could see why some people had a vested interest in this railroad closing down. It was almost a striaght shot from Tacoma to Chicago! Today if the railroad was still around I am sure that it would be a coal hauler westbound and a major intermodal player eastbound. There would be less congestion on it because there weren't a lot of major on line industries (no population centers), so fewer locals tying up the tracks. It was very sad to think of the men that gave their lives trying to build this thing, and even worse to think of the labor that was torn up not 70 years later. 70 years in railroad terms is not that long of a period, given that most major rail building occured over 130 years ago. I think all Milwaukee fans should try and make the trip out to the west coast once in their lifetime and see how far the railroad went. It really puts the bankruptcy and loss into perspective.

I hope everyone enjoyed this.

Solz

[Murphy Siding]

solzrules: That was too cool! Thanks

[jimrice4449]

Trust me! I worked for the Milw as a brakeman and the track between Plummer Jct and Marengo was unsignaled. On the head-on at Pandora, the engr and the fireman were in a conversation about the ups and downs of wheat farming (the engr had a farm in Rosalia) and simply forgot the meet order. The caboose crew, as the train was rolling by the apparently empty siding, radioed the head end asking if the eastbound was in the siding. At that point the engr put the train into emergency and called the eastbound but it was too late to get everything stopped.
The inverted vee switch stand w/ the white ball on a red background is a GN fixture. We shared trackage w/ the BN(ex-GN) on part of the Coeur d Alene branch and had to carry Milw and Bn switch keys and that was the indicator of which key to use.

[greyhounds]

Solz,

How did you ever find a woman who would take such a fine trip for her honneymoon?

For some reason the C&IM began replacing steam by using Milwaukee SD7s. In Manito, IL they were called "Rocky Moutain Diesels". It was a big deal when a diesel train came through.

I was five and had very rudimentary reading skills at the time. I don't recall reading "Milwaukee Road" on the side of the engines. But I do remember orange and black diesels cresting the hill south of town.

They were the first diesel locomotives I recall seeing. But I was five.

[zardoz]

Solz,
I said it before and I'll say it again: those images are wonderful! I bet that was a fantastic trip!

How did you manage to find those locations? There are many places I would like to go and photograph the old sites, but I do not know how to find them. Did you use USGS maps, railfan maps, ??????

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jimrice4449

Trust me! I worked for the Milw as a brakeman and the track between Plummer Jct and Marengo was unsignaled. On the head-on at Pandora, the engr and the fireman were in a conversation about the ups and downs of wheat farming (the engr had a farm in Rosalia) and simply forgot the meet order. The caboose crew, as the train was rolling by the apparently empty siding, radioed the head end asking if the eastbound was in the siding. At that point the engr put the train into emergency and called the eastbound but it was too late to get everything stopped.
The inverted vee switch stand w/ the white ball on a red background is a GN fixture. We shared trackage w/ the BN(ex-GN) on part of the Coeur d Alene branch and had to carry Milw and Bn switch keys and that was the indicator of which key to use.

Absolutely correct; the "freight line" was dark between Plummer and Marengo.

Comments from friends and colleagues regarding the event:

The only head-on collision we had on the Coast Division during my time, was in '77 or '78 on the First Sub, at Pandora, Wash. As I recall, the westbound ran the train order meet, and surprised the eastbound west of Pandora. This was in dark territory on account that passenger trains bypassed this part of the mainline on their stop at Spokane.

Trains were:
#201C 200/159/139
#200 163/171/162/160/131

All units except the 159 and 139 were rebuilt for coal service (extra ballast, pacesetter, and other appliances). The 131, 200, 163, 171, 162, 160 were part of a group of 17 units so outfitted.

"According to what I have written down #201 was supposed to hold the main at Pandora and #200 was to enter the siding. Unfortunately, #201 did not wait and instead continued west. The crew on the #200 saw the cars on #201 moving in the distance and jumped before impact. Two hooks were called out: one from St. Maries, pulled by the 158, and one from Tacoma pulled by the 5502/5500. Line was not reopened until 2 am on 2/22/77."

Some difference of opinion on train numbers.

"Fred Richardson called the crews that fateful morning, what the proper id was for the westbound train. He said it was a dead freight, made up right there in the yard at St Maries after they got the weekend tonnage together from such sources as the yard and the Elk River line.

He also said the eastbound was a "dater." But he couldnt remember the
number. Dater was an old milw term for trains carrying a symbol number
and date such as 262s20 being No 262 off the coast on the 20th.

He also said that inasmuch as this was a yard makeup train, not shown on
any incoming lineup, the crews were not expecting it. And that the
engineer ,when accepting the call, commented that it was a surprise to
him and he had not expected to get out until that afternoon."

"They met head-on in a cut, just west of the siding. A brakeman riding in the 2nd unit on train 201 was killed, and the engineer on train 200 lost a leg."

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cnwrwyman

As a former employee in the engineering department in Aberdeen and later in Chicago
Larry

Can you offer some insight into some engineering on the MILW line west of Summit,S.D.? East of Bristol, the ROW is raised up really high, compared to the surrounding countryside. At places, I'd guess it to be 30'-40' above the surrounding prairie. The height does go up and down a bit, but the surrounding profile is fairly flat. This goes on for several miles. Back in the 1880's(?) when this line was built, all that dirt had to be moved by ,I would think,horsepower and manpower. Wouldn't it have been a lot easier to build the line a good 20' lower, and not move all that dirt? If it was done to gain elevation, an s-curve or horseshoe curve could have been easily put in at the time. In fact, there is a horseshoe curve in that area, that I believe is there to gain elevation at one point. There must be a logical reason it was built that way, that I'm not grasping. What are your thoughts? Thanks

[erikem]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding
Can you offer some insight into some engineering on the MWK line west of Summit,S.D.? East of Bristol, the ROW is raised up really high, compared to the surrounding countryside. At places, I'd guess it to be 30'-40' above the surrounding prairie. The height does go up and down a bit, but the surrounding profile is fairly flat. This goes on for several miles. Back in the 1880's(?) when this line was built, all that dirt had to be moved by ,I would think,horsepower and manpower. Wouldn't it have been a lot easier to build the line a good 20' lower, and not move all that dirt? If it was done to gain elevation, an s-curve or horseshoe curve could have been easily put in at the time. In fact, there is a horseshoe curve in that area, that I believe is there to gain elevation at one point. There must be a logical reason it was built that way, that I'm not grasping. What are your thoughts? Thanks

The Milw line between Baker and Harlowton, MT was a nice piece of work Much nicer than the parallel NP line. With a very few exception, most of the curves appear to be 2.5 degrees at the sharpest and noticeably less curvature on the Milw line between Terry and Forsyth than the NP line.

[solzrules]

QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz

Solz,
I said it before and I'll say it again: those images are wonderful! I bet that was a fantastic trip!

How did you manage to find those locations? There are many places I would like to go and photograph the old sites, but I do not know how to find them. Did you use USGS maps, railfan maps, ??????

When we started to follow the rail line in each state I would purchase a 'Gazetteer'. These were available at most major gas stations for about 20 dollars or so. They are worth every penny to the railfan, because they show current raillines as well as those railbeds that are abandoned and removed. They also show just about every road short of a driveway. With one of these it is real easy to follow the PCE from roads without trespassing. If we hadn't bought them, there is no way we could have followed the tracks like we were able to.

[solzrules]

QUOTE: Originally posted by greyhounds

Solz,

How did you ever find a woman who would take such a fine trip for her honneymoon?

For some reason the C&IM began replacing steam by using Milwaukee SD7s. In Manito, IL they were called "Rocky Moutain Diesels". It was a big deal when a diesel train came through.

I was five and had very rudimentary reading skills at the time. I don't recall reading "Milwaukee Road" on the side of the engines. But I do remember orange and black diesels cresting the hill south of town.

They were the first diesel locomotives I recall seeing. But I was five.

[(-D]She's a gem I'll give you that! The deal was for the first half of the trip we would go were I wanted to (follow the PCE) and the second half we would go were she wanted to. That's why we only made it to Idaho and not all the way to Tacoma. Some day soon I am going to go back and finish what I started! [:D]

[CMSTPP]

It goes to show how the milwaukee ran... The pictures are indiscribeable. Anyone can think there cool yes, but when you actually take the time to really look deep into the photos then it finally sinks in...............

James

[Anonymous]

Did the SOO have anything west of Minniapolis from MILW when they brought them out?

[arbfbe]

The Soo Line ended at Whitepine, MT in the far northeastern part of the state with their own construction. Like everyone else in the business they also had a line routed but never constructed through Montana towards the Pacific ocean.

The reporting marks and thus the most common abreviation for the Milwaukee Road is MILW and not MWK.

[mhurley87f]

Just a bit of info - one of the runners in last Saturday's Epsom Derby was called Snoqualmie Boy - no he didn't win, but I was tempted to invest !!

Hwyl,

Martin

[martin.knoepfel]

A to Snoqualmie: why didn't BN buy the Snoqualmie-pass-line and shut it's own line down if the MILW had the better alignment?

[FJ and G]

I don't see why we need 2 Milwaukee threads. I need an Old Milwaukee beer right about now

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by FJ and G

I don't see why we need 2 Milwaukee threads. I need an Old Milwaukee beer right about now

We're trying to keep this one nice, and civil.[:)] A little early for a brewski, isn't it?[;)]

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by arbfbe
The reporting marks and thus the most common abreviation for the Milwaukee Road is MILW and not MWK.

Thank you for pointing that out. I thought MWK looked awkward when I wrote it.

[chad thomas]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding
A little early for a brewski, isn't it?[;)]

[:0]

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding
A little early for a brewski, isn't it?[;)]

[:0]

And it's even earlier on the west coast![:0]

[CMSTPP]

Solz: When you went throught the states looking at the old Milwaukee did you encounter any of the large bridges out there in the mountains. The ones that trees are completely surrounding and all you can see are the bridges. Anyway were you ever on one of them?
If so, is there rail attached to them still?

And another thing. Did you get a look at Pipestone pass??? That I think is a pretty cool area besides the bridge spanning the Columbus river just down from the Saddle mountains.

James

[chad thomas]

Solz, Great photos and report !!!

[Murphy Siding]

Anybody know if there was much online traffi between Mobridge,S.D. and Terry, Montana? I know there were a couple of SD branches, and a few ND branches.

[solzrules]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CMSTPP

Solz: When you went throught the states looking at the old Milwaukee did you encounter any of the large bridges out there in the mountains. The ones that trees are completely surrounding and all you can see are the bridges. Anyway were you ever on one of them?
If so, is there rail attached to them still?

And another thing. Did you get a look at Pipestone pass??? That I think is a pretty cool area besides the bridge spanning the Columbus river just down from the Saddle mountains.

James

James -
The bridges you are taking about like Hull creek and Turkey creek are in very rugged country (probably why they are so dramatic). Another bridge that comes to mind is Eagle's Nest tunnel. I saw one from a distance while on the freeway, and from the angle I saw it I wasn't able to see any tracks even if they were attached. I did note that the cantery supports where still in place. We were moving fast, and I didn't get a picture. I hoped to see more of them but I didn't have any luck. As for Eagle's Nest, that bridge is still in existence, though it is now on private land. The only reason I know that was because there is an issue of "The Milwaukee Railroader" that shows one of the conventions taking a bus over the bridge and into the tunnel. The ranch owner was gracious enough to let the tour bus on the old ROW.

If you are interested, I have found a couple of websites where the people have made even more ambitious attempts to follow the right of way. They are really neat sites and they have some great pictures!

http://www.wwvrailway.com/milwauke.htm

This was written by Blair Kooistra, a gentlemen who has authored several articles concerning the Milwaukee for Trains Magazine. It is an awesome read about the railroad in its twilight.

http://www.brian894x4.com/MilwaukeeRoad.html

This guy actually took his truck on the ROW for quite a while, even going to the extreme of getting permission to go into areas that aren't readily accessible. He got some great pictures of the Milwaukee today.

http://webhome.idirect.com/~helmutw/milwrd/

This is one of the best sites for the railway history buff and the Milwaukee Road. This guy has traveled through Montana, Idaho, and Washington and photographed different scenes along the way, along with a description of where everything is and some history behind it. If you click on the link and then go down to the bottom of his web page you will find the links to his pictures and history.

http://friendsofcdatrails.org/Hiawatha/index.html

This site details Idaho's efforts to turn the Milwaukee's route through the Bitteroots inlcuding St. Paul pass and tunnel into a bike trail. A large portion of the ROW is already a bike trail, and from reading this it appears they want to make even more of it into a trail. This was arguably some of the most fascinating scenery on the railroad, and I can personally attest to this after almost driving the truck down the side of the mountain! I remember thinking to myself "Well, at least the last thing I will see flipping end over end at 900 miles an hour are lots of pretty flowers." My wife didn't share this enthusiasm.

As for the bridge over the Columbia river, that is also intact. The rails have been removed.


I got this picture from the internet. It is a relatively current picture showing this bridge as it looks today.

Hope this helps!

solz

[solzrules]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Anybody know if there was much online traffi between Mobridge,S.D. and Terry, Montana? I know there were a couple of SD branches, and a few ND branches.

If you mean is there much traffic on this route today, I am not sure. The old searchlight signals that the Milwaukee put up were de-comissioned with their heads turned away from the tracks. In some spots there were BNSF crews putting up three color signals, but towards the end of the line in Montana it didn't appear they were going to be doing any upgrading. However, the BNSF must have enough trains running on it to justify putting down welded rail. We didn't see anything when we were following it, however.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by solzrules

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Anybody know if there was much online traffi between Mobridge,S.D. and Terry, Montana? I know there were a couple of SD branches, and a few ND branches.

If you mean is there much traffic on this route today, I am not sure. The old searchlight signals that the Milwaukee put up were de-comissioned with their heads turned away from the tracks. In some spots there were BNSF crews putting up three color signals, but towards the end of the line in Montana it didn't appear they were going to be doing any upgrading. However, the BNSF must have enough trains running on it to justify putting down welded rail. We didn't see anything when we were following it, however.

I meant in the past, as those branch lines are long gone now too. The welded rail could be for all the coal trains that run through Aberdeen. When we're at grandma's, or out at the cabin at Mina Lake, the trains wake you up several times a night.([:D])

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Anybody know if there was much online traffi between Mobridge,S.D. and Terry, Montana? I know there were a couple of SD branches, and a few ND branches.

Mobridge to Terry, Subdivision 43 and part of Subdivision 44, generated just under $11 million in 1976, about 23,000 carloads. A very good traffic generator. About 250 miles of line, well above the Milwaukee average per mile earnings.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Anybody know if there was much online traffi between Mobridge,S.D. and Terry, Montana? I know there were a couple of SD branches, and a few ND branches.

Mobridge to Terry, Subdivision 43 and part of Subdivision 44, generated just under $11 million in 1976, about 23,000 carloads. A very good traffic generator. About 250 miles of line, well above the Milwaukee average per mile earnings.

Really? That's interesting. Most of that area is dry, cattle grazing country. Was most of the freight ag oriented, or did the branches into ND tap into a coal mine or some other minerals?

[MichaelSol]

Knife River coal mine at Gascoyne, shipped to Big Stone power plant, 6-7 trains a week. About a 350 mile haul. That was about $6.5 million. Didn't originate on this subdivision, but the BN/MILW Colstrip coal was coming over this line as well every day. Lots of coal trains through here. The rest? Dryland wheat mostly. Reeder and Scranton were half a million dollar to a million dollar stations, Hettinger & Lemon close to $400,000, Bowman, nearly a half a million, Thunder Hawk & McLaughlin, nearly $300,000, even a couple hundred thousand at Rhame and Baker. Between 1974 and 1978, this stretch of mainline increased from 9 MGT to over 12 MGT by 1978, to over 14 MGT east of Aberdeen. Very strong growth coming from the Western Lines in those years even as the Company as a whole had slipped into bankruptcy.

[Murphy Siding]

Michael: Do you have any info on loadings out of the Chamberlain to Rapid City, S.D. line of the same era? Any breakdowns on the kinds of material shipped? On both lines? Thanks

[CMSTPP]

Well thanks for the info there solzs. I have already seen that Dust in the wind website I thought it was one of the better websites out there. Thanks again. By the way I came across a Full Diesel roster on the milwaukee road from 1939-1993. It has almost every locotive the railroad owned diesel wise. If you want I can post it. But like I said it is absolutely huge and contains allot of info.

James

[solzrules]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CMSTPP

Well thanks for the info there solzs. I have already seen that Dust in the wind website I thought it was one of the better websites out there. Thanks again. By the way I came across a Full Diesel roster on the milwaukee road from 1939-1993. It has almost every locotive the railroad owned diesel wise. If you want I can post it. But like I said it is absolutely huge and contains allot of info.

James

Why not post it? I'd like to see it, especially the diesel section. Thanks!

[CMSTPP]

Here is the first chunk enjoy!!! The first number of each of the locomotives is the original number and the second number is when it was renumbered. After the date the locomotive was built is a bigger number, such as the first locomotive, 66076, this was the frame number. Maybe a little hard to read. Sorry. Like I said this is the first chunk and three more to come. I will post them later.

Milwaukee Road All-time Diesel Roster, 1939-1993
Compiled by Fred Hyde



Orig #.. Re#.. model.. milw model.. HP.... Date built.... Frame.. weight .. disposition

1602 982 HH600 6-AS 600 03/39 69076 204,000 Alco Retired 1961,scrapped @ Milw Shops
1603 983 HH600 6-AS 600 03/39 69077 204,000 Alco Retired 1961,scrapped @ Milw Shops
1672 822 S2 10-AS 1000 10/40 69215 230,000 Alco Retired, scrapped 1963 Milw Shops
1673 823 S2 10-AS 1000 10/40 69217 230,000 Alco Retired, scrapped 1963 Milw Shops
1674 824 S2 10-AS 1000 10/40 69218 230,000 Alco Retired, scrapped 1963 Milw Shops
1600 980 HH660 6.6-AS 660 04/40 69255 200,000 Alco Retired 1961, scrapped @ Milw Shops
1601 981 HH660 6.6-AS 660 04/40 69256 200,000 Alco Retired 1961, scrapped @ Milw Shops
14A DL109 20-AP 2000 10/41 69437 325,000 Alco Scrapped MILW shops early 1960's
14B DL109 20-AP 2000 10/41 69438 325,000 Alco Scrapped MILW shops early 1960's
1678 RS1 10-ARS 1000 11/41 69567 244,000 Alco 1943 USA 8002 ARR 1021 ARR 1069 Sold to US Army 10/42, r/b to C-C
1679 RS1 10-ARS 1000 11/41 69568 244,000 Alco 1943 USA 8003 ARR 1043 Sold to US Army 10/42, r/b to C-C
1666 825 S2 10-AS 1000 09/43 69935 230,000 Alco Retired, scrapped 1963 Milw Shops
1667 826 S2 10-AS 1000 09/43 69936 230,000 Alco Retired, scrapped 1963 Milw Shops
1668 827 S2 10-AS 1000 10/43 69937 230,000 Alco Retired, scrapped 1963 Milw Shops
1669 828 S2 10-AS 1000 11/43 69938 230,000 Alco SWP Cem 17 Retired,to Manufacturers Equip, to Silcott, to SW POrtland Cement, Fairborn OH
1676 873 RS1 10-ARS 1000 05/43 70814 253,000 Alco T/I to EMD for GP40, 1967
1677 874 RS1 10-ARS 1000 05/43 70815 253,000 Alco T/I to EMD for GP40, 1967
1663 829 S2 10-AS 1000 01/44 70956 233,000 Alco Retired, scrapped 1963 Milw Shops
1664 830 S2 10-AS 1000 01/44 70957 233,000 Alco Retired, scrapped 1963 Milw Shops
1665 831 S2 10-AS 1000 01/44 70958 233,000 Alco RSLX 570 Sold July 1961
1657 832 S2 10-AS 1000 09/45 73632 233,000 Alco Retired 1963,scrapped MILW shops 1963
1658 833 S2 10-AS 1000 09/45 73633 233,000 Alco Retired 1963,scrapped MILW shops 1963
1659 834 S2 10-AS 1000 09/45 73634 233,000 Alco Retired 1963,scrapped MILW shops 1963
1660 835 S2 10-AS 1000 09/45 73635 233,000 Alco Retired 1963,scrapped MILW shops 1963
1661 836 S2 10-AS 1000 09/45 73636 233,000 Alco Retired 1963,scrapped MILW shops 1963
1662 837 S2 10-AS 1000 09/45 73637 233,000 Alco Retired 1963,scrapped MILW shops 1963
975 580 579 RSC2 15-ARS 1500 11/46 73643 250,000 Alco To RSC2m;to PNC, scrapped04/76
rebuilt:10/65
976 (490) RSC2 15-ARS 1500 11/46 73644 250,000 Alco Converted toRS-2
977 581 577 RSC2 15-ARS 1500 11/46 73647 250,000 Alco To RSC-2m; to PNC, scrapped, 07/76
rebuilt:10/65
978 587 RSC2 15-ARS 1500 12/46 73648 250,000 Alco T/I to GE for U30B/U33C, scrapped 4/68 by Laclede Steel, St. Louis
979 582 RSC2 15-ARS 1500 12/46 74989 250,000 Alco T/I to GE for U30B/U33C, scrapped 4/68 by Laclede Steel, St. Louis
980 583 RSC2 15-ARS 1500 12/46 74990 250,000 Alco T/I to GE for U30B/U33C, scrapped 4/68 by Laclede Steel, St. Louis
981 491 457 RSC2 15-ARS 1500 12/46 74994 250,000 Alco Converted to RS-2
982 588 RSC2 15-ARS 1500 12/46 74995 250,000 Alco Converted to RS-2
983 589 RSC2 15-ARS 1500 12/46 74996 250,000 Alco Rebuilt from RSC-2, T/I to EMD for SD45/FP45/SDL39/GP40, 1969
984 590 RSC2 15-ARS 1500 12/46 74999 250,000 Alco Rebuilt from RSC-2, T/I to EMD for SD45/FP45/SDL39/GP40, 1969
985 591 578 RSC2 14-ARS 1400 02/47 75129 249,000 Alco R/b to RSC2m,10/65; to Kettle Moraine Scenic Ry 04/77
986 592 RSC2 15-ARS 1500 02/47 75130 249,000 Alco
987 593 RSC2 15-ARS 1500 02/47 75133 237,000 Alco T/I to GE for U30B/U33C, scrapped 4/68 by Laclede Steel, St. Louis
988 594 RSC2 15-ARS 1500 02/47 75134 237,000 Alco
989 584 RSC2 15-ARS 1500 02/47 75135 237,000 Alco T/I to GE for U30B/U33C, scrapped 4/68 by Laclede Steel, St. Louis
990 492 463 454 RSC2 15-ARS 1500 02/47 75138 237,000 Alco Converted to RS-2
991 585 576 RSC2 15-ARS 1500 02/47 75139 237,000 Alco 3/76 to PNC, scrapped, 07/76
To RSC-2m rebuilt:11/65
992 586 RSC2 15-ARS 1500 02/47 75140 237,000 Alco T/I to GE for U30B/U33C, scrapped 4/68 by Laclede Steel, St. Louis
1678 838 S2 10-AS 1000 11/47 75548 233,000 Alco Sold to US Government between 1960 and 1965
1679 839 S2 10-AS 1000 11/47 75549 233,000 Alco RSLX 571 Sold to Republic Steel through Silcott 07/61
1850 840 S2 10-AS 1000 04/49 76619 232,000 Alco
1851 841 S2 10-AS 1000 04/49 76620 232,000 Alco T/I to EMD for GP40, 1966
1852 842 S2 10-AS 1000 04/49 76621 232,000 Alco T/I to EMD for GP40, 1966
993 595 RSC2 15-ARS 1500 04/47 76639 256,000 Alco 01/76 03/76 KMSR 4 T/I to EMD for FP45/SD45/SDL39/GP40, 1969
04/49
994 596 RSC2 15-ARS 1500 04/47 76640 256,000 Alco Scrapped Milwaukee Shops 07/75
04/49
995 597 RSC2 15-ARS 1500 04/47 76641 256,000 Alco T/I to GE for U30B/U33C, scrapped 4/68 by Laclede Steel, St. Louis
02/49
996 493 455 468 RSC2 15-ARS 1500 04/47 76642 256,000 Alco Builts as RSC2, r/b to RS2
02/49
1853 843 S2 10-AS 1000 04/49 76747 233,000 Alco T/I to EMD for GP40, 1966
1854 844 S2 10-AS 1000 04/49 76748 233,000 Alco T/I to EMD for GP40, 1966
1855 845 S2 10-AS 1000 04/49 76749 233,000 Alco T/I to EMD for GP40, 1966
1856 846 S2 10-AS 1000 04/49 76750 233,000 Alco T/I to EMD for GP40, 1966
1857 847 S2 10-AS 1000 04/49 76751 233,000 Alco T/I to EMD for GP40, 1966
961 870 RS1 10-ARS 1000 03/50 77469 239,000 Alco T/I to EMD for GP40, 1967
962 871 RS1 10-ARS 1000 03/50 77470 239,000 Alco T/I to EMD for GP40, 1967
963 872 RS1 10-ARS 1000 03/50 77471 239,000 Alco T/I to EMD for GP40, 1967
1858 848 S2 10-AS 1000 05/50 77517 231,000 Alco T/I to EMD for GP40, 1966
1859 849 S2 10-AS 1000 05/50 77518 231,000 Alco T/I to EMD for GP40, 1966
1860 850 S2 10-AS 1000 05/50 77519 231,000 Alco T/I to EMD for GP40, 1966
1861 851 S2 10-AS 1000 05/50 77520 231,000 Alco T/I to EMD for GP40, 1966
1862 852 S2 10-AS 1000 05/50 77521 231,000 Alco T/I to EMD for GP40, 1966
1863 853 S4 10-AS 1000 11/50 78421 229,000 Alco T/I to EMD for GP40, 1966
1864 854 819 S4 10-AS 1000 11/50 78422 229,000 Alco
1865 855 S4 10-AS 1000 11/50 78423 229,000 Alco T/I to EMD for GP40, 1966
1866 856 S4 10-AS 1000 11/50 78424 229,000 Alco T/I to EMD for GP40, 1966
1867 857 S4 10-AS 1000 11/50 78425 229,000 Alco T/I to EMD for GP40, 1966
1868 858 S4 10-AS 1000 04/51 78718 232,000 Alco T/I to EMD for GP40, 1966
1869 859 S4 10-AS 1000 04/51 78719 232,000 Alco T/I to EMD for GP40, 1966
1870 860 S4 10-AS 1000 04/51 78720 232,000 Alco T/I to EMD for GP40, 1966
1871 861 S4 10-AS 1000 04/51 78721 232,000 Alco T/I to EMD for GP40, 1966
1872 862 S4 10-AS 1000 04/51 78722 232,000 Alco T/I to EMD for GP40, 1966
1873 800 S4 10-AS 1000 10/51 78844 232,000 Alco T/I to GE for U28B,1966
1874 801 S4 10-AS 1000 10/51 78845 232,000 Alco T/I to GE for U28B,1966
1875 802 S4 10-AS 1000 10/51 78846 232,000 Alco T/I to EMD for GP40, 1966
1876 803 S4 10-AS 1000 10/51 78847 232,000 Alco T/I to EMD for GP40, 1966
1877 804 S4 10-AS 1000 10/51 78848 232,000 Alco
1878 805 S4 10-AS 1000 10/51 78849 232,000 Alco T/I to GE for U28B,1966, scrapped by Luria, Madison, WI
1879 806 S4 10-AS 1000 10/51 78850 232,000 Alco T/I to EMD for GP40, 1966
1880 807 84? S4 10-AS 1000 10/51 78851 232,000 Alco
1881 808 S4 10-AS 1000 10/51 78852 232,000 Alco T/I to EMD for GP40, 1967
1882 809 S4 10-AS 1000 10/51 78853 232,000 Alco T/I to GE for U28B,1966, scrapped by Luria, Madison, WI
1883 810 S4 10-AS 1000 10/51 78854 232,000 Alco
1884 811 818 S4 10-AS 1000 10/51 78855 232,000 Alco Sold to Algoma Ry 07/76 Algoma #818
1885 812 S4 10-AS 1000 10/51 79216 231,000 Alco T/I to EMD for GP40, 1966
1886 813 S4 10-AS 1000 10/51 79217 231,000 Alco T/I to EMD for GP40, 1966
1887 814 S4 10-AS 1000 10/51 79218 231,000 Alco T/I to EMD for GP40, 1967
1888 863 S4 10-AS 1000 10/52 80083 232,000 Alco Sold to Precision Engineering early 1968
1889 864 S4 10-AS 1000 10/52 80084 232,000 Alco Sold to Precision Engineering early 1968
1890 865 S4 10-AS 1000 10/52 80085 232,000 Alco Sold to Precision Engineering early 1968
1891 866 S4 10-AS 1000 10/52 80086 232,000 Alco Sold to Precision Engineering early 1968
2475 450 RS3 16-ARS 1600 12/53 80578 248,000 Alco T/I to EMD for SD45/FP45/SDL39/GP40, 1969
2476 451 RS3 16-ARS 1600 12/53 80579 248,000 Alco T/I to EMD for SD45/FP45/SDL39/GP40, 1969
2477 452 RS3 16-ARS 1600 12/53 80581 248,000 Alco T/I to EMD for SD45/FP45/SDL39/GP40, 1969
2478 453 RS3 16-ARS 1600 12/53 80650 248,000 Alco T/I to EMD for SD45/FP45/SDL39/GP40, 1969
2479 454 463 RS3 16-ARS 1600 12/53 80651 248,000 Alco Scrapped Milwaukee Shops 04/76
2480 455 493 RS3 16-ARS 1600 12/53 80652 248,000 Alco
2481 456 467 RS3 16-ARS 1600 12/53 80653 248,000 Alco
2482 457 491 RS3 16-ARS 1600 12/53 80654 248,000 Alco
2483 458 RS3 16-ARS 1600 09/54 80738 235,000 Alco T/I to EMD for SD45/FP45/SDL39/GP40, 1969
2484 459 464 RS3 16-ARS 1600 09/54 80739 235,000 Alco
2485 460 RS3 16-ARS 1600 09/54 80740 235,000 Alco T/I to EMD for SD45/FP45/SDL39/GP40, 1969
2486 461 RS3 16-ARS 1600 09/54 80741 235,000 Alco Scrapped Milwaukee Shops 04/76
2487 462 469 RS3 16-ARS 1600 09/54 80742 235,000 Alco
2150 570 RSD5 16-ARS 1600 08/53 80777 297,000 Alco Scrapped Milwaukee Shops 03/76
2151 571 RSD5 16-ARS 1600 08/53 80778 297,000 Alco Scrapped Milwaukee Shops 03/76
2152 572 RSD5 16-ARS 1600 08/53 80779 297,000 Alco Scrapped Milwaukee Shops 03/76
2153 573 RSD5 16-ARS 1600 10/53 80802 296,000 Alco
2154 574 RSD5 16-ARS 1600 10/53 80803 296,000 Alco Scrapped Milwaukee Shops 03/76
2155 575 RSD5 16-ARS 1600 10/53 80804 296,000 Alco Scrapped Milwaukee Shops 03/76
1892 815 S4 10-AS 1000 12/53 80969 232,000 Alco
1893 816 S4 10-AS 1000 12/53 80970 232,000 Alco 03/77 V&M 23 Sold to Virginia & Mayland 03/77
1894 817 S4 10-AS 1000 12/53 80971 232,000 Alco
1895 818 811 S4 10-AS 1000 12/53 80972 232,000 Alco
1896 819 854 S4 10-AS 1000 12/53 80973 232,000 Alco T/I to EMD for GP40, 1966
2488 463 492 454 RS3 16-ARS 1600 11/55 81703 237,000 Alco T/I to EMD for SD45/FP45/SDL39/GP40, 1969
2489 464 459 RS3 16-ARS 1600 11/55 81704 237,000 Alco T/I to EMD for SD45/FP45/SDL39/GP40, 1969
2490 465 RS3 16-ARS 1600 11/55 81705 247,000 Alco Scrapped Milwaukee Shops 03/76
2491 466 RS3 16-ARS 1600 11/55 81706 247,000 Alco
2492 467 456 RS3 16-ARS 1600 11/55 81707 247,000 Alco T/I to EMD for SD45/FP45/SDL39/GP40, 1969
2493 468 455 RS3 16-ARS 1600 11/55 81708 247,000 Alco T/I to EMD for SD45/FP45/SDL39/GP40, 1969
2494 469 462 RS3 16-ARS 1600 11/55 81709 247,000 Alco Scrapped Milwaukee Shops 04/76
2495 470 RS3 16-ARS 1600 11/55 81710 247,000 Alco Scrapped Milwaukee Shops 06/75
1649 1635 985 VO660 6.6-BS 660 05/40 62393 204,000 BLW Retire 01/61, scrapped at Milwaukee Shops 1962
1680 928 VO1000 10-ARS 1000 07/40 62406 244,000 BLW Scrapped Milwaukee Shops early 1967
1681 929 VO1000 10-ARS 1000 07/40 62407 244,000 BLW T/I to EMD for GP40, 1967
1682 930 VO1000 10-ARS 1000 11/42 64434 238,000 BLW Scrapped Milwaukee Shops early 1967
1683 931 VO1000 10-ARS 1000 08/43 69642 237,000 BLW T/I to EMD for GP40, 1967
1684 932 VO1000 10-ARS 1000 08/43 69643 237,000 BLW To PNC,scrapped 05/76
1685 933 VO1000 10-ARS 1000 01/44 70121 240,000 BLW T/I to EMD for GP40/SD45, 1968
1686 934 VO1000 10-ARS 1000 02/44 70142 240,000 BLW Scrapped Milwaukee Shops 03/76
1687 935 VO1000 10-ARS 1000 05/44 70857 240,000 BLW To PNC,scrapped 06/76 (Miller? 08/65?)
1688 936 VO1000 10-ARS 1000 09/45 72044 242,000 BLW
1689 937 VO1000 10-ARS 1000 09/45 72045 242,000 BLW To PNC,scrapped 04/76
1690 938 VO1000 10-ARS 1000 09/45 72046 242,000 BLW Scrapped Milwaukee Shops 06/75
1691 939 908 VO1000 10-ARS 1000 09/45 72047 242,000 BLW To PNC,scrapped 05/76
1692 940 DS44-1000 10-ARS 1000 10/48 73920 231,000 BLW Scrapped by PNC 04/77
1693 941 DS44-1000 10-ARS 1000 10/48 73921 231,000 BLW
1694 942 DS44-1000 10-ARS 1000 10/48 73922 231,000 BLW
1695 943 DS44-1000 10-ARS 1000 10/48 73923 231,000 BLW
1696 944 DS44-1000 10-ARS 1000 11/48 73924 231,000 BLW
1697 945 DS44-1000 10-ARS 1000 11/48 73925 231,000 BLW
1901 946 DS44-1000 10-ARS 1000 10/49 74632 230,000 BLW
1902 947 DS44-1000 10-ARS 1000 10/49 74633 230,000 BLW
1903 948 DS44-1000 10-ARS 1000 10/49 74634 230,000 BLW
1904 949 DS44-1000 10-ARS 1000 10/49 74635 230,000 BLW
1905 920 S12 12-BS 1200 11/50 75007 237,000 BLW To PNC, scrapped 06/76
1906 921 S12 12-BS 1200 11/50 75008 237,000 BLW
1907 922 S12 12-BS 1200 11/50 75009 237,000 BLW To PNC, scrapped 08/76
1908 923 S12 12-BS 1200 12/50 75010 237,000 BLW To PNC, scrapped 09/76
1909 924 S12 12-BS 1200 12/50 75011 237,000 BLW To PNC, scrapped 08/76
2100 560 AS-616 16-BRS-6 1600 04/51 75085 328,000 BLW T/I to EMD for GP40/SD45, 1968
1910 900 S12 12-BS 1200 11/51 75146 237,000 BLW Scrapped Milwaukee Shops 03/76
1911 901 S12 12-BS 1200 11/51 75147 237,000 BLW
1912 902 S12 12-BS 1200 11/51 75148 237,000 BLW To PNC, scrapped 08/76
1913 903 S12 12-BS 1200 11/51 75149 237,000 BLW Scrapped Milwaukee Shops 06/75
1914 904 S12 12-BS 1200 11/51 75150 237,000 BLW To PNC, scrapped 08/76
2100B 2102 562 AS-616B 16-BRS-6 1600 04/51 75232 326,000 BLW Rebuilt to AS616
2101B 2103 563 AS-616B 16-BRS-6 1600 04/51 75233 326,000 BLW Rebuilt to AS616
970 926 RS12 12-BRS 1200 05/51 75242 244,000 BLW To PNC, scrapped 05/76
1915 905 S12 12-BS 1200 12/51 75278 236,000 BLW
1916 906 S12 12-BS 1200 12/51 75279 236,000 BLW
1917 925 S12 12-BS 1200 12/51 75701 240,000 BLW Scrapped Milwaukee Shops 06/75
971 927 RS12 12-BRS 1200 11/52 75702 244,000 BLW Scrapped Milwaukee Shops 06/75
2104 564 AS-616 16-BRS-6 1600 08/53 75907 294,000 BLW
2105 565 AS-616 16-BRS-6 1600 08/53 75908 294,000 BLW
2106 566 AS-616 16-BRS-6 1600 09/53 75909 294,000 BLW
2107 567 AS-616 16-BRS-6 1600 09/53 75910 294,000 BLW
1918 907 S12 12-BS 1200 12/53 75967 240,000 BLW To PNC, scrapped 05/76
1919 908 939 S12 12-BS 1200 12/53 75968 242,000 BLW T/I to EMD for SD45/FP45/SDL39/GP40, 1969
1920 909 S12 12-BS 1200 12/53 75969 242,000 BLW Sold to Escanaba & Lake Superior Ry for parts 03/77
1921 910 S12 12-BS 1200 12/53 75970 242,000 BLW
1922 911 S12 12-BS 1200 12/53 75971 242,000 BLW To PNC, scrapped 04/76
1923 912 S12 12-BS 1200 01/54 75972 242,000 BLW To PNC, scrapped 09/76
1924 913 S12 12-BS 1200 01/54 75973 242,000 BLW To PNC, scrapped 08/76
1925 914 S12 12-BS 1200 01/54 75974 242,000 BLW To PNC, scrapped 05/76
2101 561 AS-616 16-BRS-6 1600 04/51 78086 328,000 BLW
1708 44-Ton Daven 380 01/42 2364 88,000 Dvn Retired 8/19/58
1709 997 44-Ton Daven 380 01/42 2365 88,000 Dvn T/I to EMD for GP40, 1967
1650 668 NW2 10-ES 1000 06/39 00845 252,000 EMD 05/80 01/81
1651 669 NW2 10-ES 1000 06/39 00846 252,000 EMD 05/80
1610 960 872 SW1 6-ES 600 06/39 00878 203,000 EMD 05/80
1611 961 866 SW1 6-ES 600 06/39 00879 203,000 EMD 05/80
1612 962 865 SW1 6-ES 600 08/39 00904 203,000 EMD 05/80 10/75 DRI&NW 865,SDWG 865 To South Dakota Wheat Growers
1613 963 867 SW1 6-ES 600 03/40 01039 203,000 EMD 05/80
1614 964 SW1 6-ES 600 03/40 01040 203,000 EMD 02/65 To International Harvester, M/1960's
1615 965 941 860 SW1 6-ES 600 03/40 01041 203,000 EMD 05/80 01/83 To Independent Loco, 01/83, To Harvest States (07/83)
1616 950 862 SW1 6-ES 600 03/40 01042 201,000 EMD 05/80 01/83 To Independent Locomotive, St. Paul, To Pillsbury
1617 951 861 SW1 6-ES 600 03/40 01043 201,000 EMD 05/80 08/80
1618 955 870 SW1 6-ES 600 03/40 01044 201,000 EMD 05/80 06/77
1619 956 869 SW1 6-ES 600 03/40 01045 201,000 EMD 05/80 04/80 S&NC ??? Sold to Seattle & North Coast Ry, Port Angeles, WA
1620 966 SW1 6-ES 600 04/40 01046 203,000 EMD 02/65 Retired E/1965,disposition ??
1621 967 SW1 6-ES 600 04/40 01047 203,000 EMD 02/65 Retired E/1965,disposition ??
1622 952 863 SW1 6-ES 600 04/40 01048 203,000 EMD 05/80 03/83 To Chrome Crankshaft, Silvis, Ill., to Hardin Grain 09/83
1623 968 958 868 SW1 6-ES 600 04/40 01049 203,000 EMD 05/80
1624 969 959 871 SW1 6-ES 600 04/40 01050 203,000 EMD 05/80 10/75 DRI&NW 871 Sold to Davenport, Rock Island and Northwestern Ry
1625 970 942 873 SW1 6-ES 600 11/40 01178 197,000 EMD 05/80 08/79 To PNC
1626 971 943 874 SW1 6-ES 600 11/40 01179 197,000 EMD 05/80
1627 957 880 SW1 6-ES 600 11/40 01180 197,000 EMD 05/80 10/78 To PNC
1628 972 944 875 SW1 6-ES 600 11/40 01181 197,000 EMD 05/80
1629 973 945 876 SW1 6-ES 600 11/40 01182 197,000 EMD 05/80
1630 974 946 877 SW1 6-ES 600 11/40 01183 197,000 EMD 05/80 12/82 To Erman Howell for scrap, 12/82
1631 975 947 879 SW1 6-ES 600 11/40 01184 197,000 EMD 05/80 10/80 ST&T 7 To Superior Tie & Timber
1632 976 948 878 SW1 6-ES 600 11/40 01185 197,000 EMD 05/80 10/80 To Weyerhaeuser
1633 953 864 SW1 6-ES 600 11/40 01186 197,000 EMD 05/80 10/80 Nucor 8640
1652 670 NW2 10-ES 1000 11/40 01187 249,000 EMD 05/80 01/81
1653 671 NW2 10-ES 1000 11/40 01188 249,000 EMD 05/80 01/81
1654 672 NW2 10-ES 1000 11/40 01189 249,000 EMD 05/80 06/81
15A E6A 20-EP 2000 09/41 01363 315,000 EMD 03/61 T/I on E9A 36A
15B E6A 20-EP 2000 09/41 01364 315,000 EMD 03/61 T/I on E9A 36C
40A FT-A 13.5-EF 1350 10/41 01365 225,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
40D FT-A 13.5-EF 1350 10/41 01366 225,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
40B FT-B 13.5-EF 1350 10/41 01367 223,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
40C FT-B 13.5-EF 1350 10/41 01368 223,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
1634 977 949 881 SW1 6-ES 600 09/41 01369 197,000 EMD 05/80
41A FT-A 13.5-EF 1350 07/43 01774 233,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
41D FT-A 13.5-EF 1350 07/43 01775 233,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
41B FT-B 13.5-EF 1350 07/43 01776 233,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
41C FT-B 13.5-EF 1350 07/43 01777 233,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
42A FT-A 13.5-EF 1350 07/44 02613 228,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
42D FT-A 13.5-EF 1350 07/44 02614 228,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
43A FT-A 13.5-EF 1350 07/44 02615 228,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
43D FT-A 13.5-EF 1350 07/44 02616 228,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
44A FT-A 13.5-EF 1350 07/44 02617 228,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
44D FT-A 13.5-EF 1350 07/44 02618 228,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
45A FT-A 13.5-EF 1350 07/44 02619 228,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
45D FT-A 13.5-EF 1350 07/44 02620 228,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
46A FT-A 13.5-EF 1350 07/44 02621 228,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
46D FT-A 13.5-EF 1350 07/44 02622 228,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
47A FT-A 13.5-EF 1350 07/44 02623 228,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
47D FT-A 13.5-EF 1350 07/44 02624 228,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
42B FT-B 13.5-EF 1350 07/44 02625 226,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
42C FT-B 13.5-EF 1350 07/44 02626 226,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
43B FT-B 13.5-EF 1350 07/44 02627 226,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
43C FT-B 13.5-EF 1350 07/44 02628 226,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
44B FT-B 13.5-EF 1350 07/44 02629 226,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
44C FT-B 13.5-EF 1350 07/44 02630 226,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
45B FT-B 13.5-EF 1350 07/44 02631 226,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
45C FT-B 13.5-EF 1350 07/44 02632 226,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
46B FT-B 13.5-EF 1350 07/44 02633 226,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
46C FT-B 13.5-EF 1350 07/44 02634 226,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
47B FT-B 13.5-EF 1350 07/44 02635 226,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
47C FT-B 13.5-EF 1350 07/44 02636 226,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
16A E7A 20-EP 2000 06/46 03235 324,000 EMD 01/69 T/I on E9A 37A
16B E7A 20-EP 2000 06/46 03236 324,000 EMD 01/69 T/I on E9A 37C
17A E7A 20-EP 2000 06/46 03237 324,000 EMD 01/69 T/I to EMD for FP45/SD45/SDL39/GP40, 1969
17B E7A 20-EP 2000 06/46 03238 324,000 EMD 01/69 T/I to EMD for FP45/SD45/SDL39/GP40, 1969
18A E7A 20-EP 2000 06/46 03239 324,000 EMD 01/69 T/I to EMD for FP45/SD45/SDL39/GP40, 1969
18B E7A 20-EP 2000 06/46 03240 324,000 EMD 01/69 T/I to EMD for FP45/SD45/SDL39/GP40, 1969
19A E7A 20-EP 2000 06/46 03241 324,000 EMD 01/69 T/I on E9A 38A
19B E7A 20-EP 2000 06/46 03242 324,000 EMD 01/69 T/I to EMD for FP45/SD45/SDL39/GP40, 1969
20A E7A 20-EP 2000 06/46 03243 324,000 EMD 01/69 T/I on E9A 38C
20B E7A 20-EP 2000 06/46 03244 324,000 EMD 01/69 Wrecked, Kenosha,WI 1964 - scr Milw Shops
35A FT-A 13.5-EF 1350 07/45 03245 227,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
35D FT-A 13.5-EF 1350 07/45 03246 227,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
36A FT-A 13.5-EF 1350 07/45 03247 227,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
36D FT-A 13.5-EF 1350 07/45 03248 227,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
37A FT-A 13.5-EF 1350 07/45 03249 227,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
37D FT-A 13.5-EF 1350 07/45 03250 227,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
38A FT-A 13.5-EF 1350 07/45 03251 227,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
38D FT-A 13.5-EF 1350 07/45 03252 227,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
39A FT-A 13.5-EF 1350 07/45 03253 227,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
39D FT-A 13.5-EF 1350 07/45 03254 227,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
35B FT-B 13.5-EF 1350 07/45 03255 224,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
35C FT-B 13.5-EF 1350 07/45 03256 224,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
36B FT-B 13.5-EF 1350 07/45 03257 224,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
36C FT-B 13.5-EF 1350 07/45 03258 224,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
37B FT-B 13.5-EF 1350 07/45 03259 224,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
37C FT-B 13.5-EF 1350 07/45 03260 224,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
38B FT-B 13.5-EF 1350 07/45 03261 224,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
38C FT-B 13.5-EF 1350 07/45 03262 224,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
39B FT-B 13.5-EF 1350 07/45 03263 224,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
39C FT-B 13.5-EF 1350 07/45 03264 224,000 EMD 01/59 T/I to EMD for GP9s 280-331
1647 665 NW2 10-ES 1000 11/47 05238 249,000 EMD 05/80 12/84
1648 666 NW2 10-ES 1000 11/47 05239 249,000 EMD 05/80 01/83 To Independent Locomitve for scrap 01/83
1649 667 NW2 10-ES 1000 11/47 05240 249,000 EMD 05/80 10/84 To DWilson, Des Moines, IA 11/84
80A F3A 15-EF 1500 01/49 06307 235,000 EMD 03/65 T/I to EMD/GE for GP35/U25B/U28B, 1965
80D 81C F3A 15-EF 1500 01/49 06308 235,000 EMD 03/65 T/I to EMD/GE GP35/U25B/U28B, 1965
81A F3A 15-EF 1500 01/49 06309 236,000 EMD 03/65 T/I to EMD/GE for GP35/U25B/U28B, 1965
81D 84A F3A 15-EF 1500 01/49 06310 236,000 EMD 03/65 T/I to EMD/GE GP35/U25B/U28B, 1965
82A F3A 15-EF 1500 02/49 06311 236,000 EMD 03/65 T/I to EMD/GE for GP35/U25B/U28B, 1965
82D 85A F3A 15-EF 1500 02/49 06312 236,000 EMD 03/65 T/I to EMD/GE GP35/U25B/U28B, 1965
83A F3A 15-EF 1500 02/49 06313 236,000 EMD 03/65 T/I to EMD/GE for GP35/U25B/U28B, 1965
83D 86A F3A 15-EF 1500 02/49 06314 236,000 EMD 03/65 T/I to EMD/GE GP35/U25B/U28B, 1965
80B F3B 15-EF 1500 01/49 06315 232,000 EMD 03/65 T/I to EMD/GE for GP35/U25B/U28B, 1965
80C F3B 15-EF 1500 01/49 06316 232,000 EMD 03/65 T/I to EMD/GE for GP35/U25B/U28B, 1965
81B F3B 15-EF 1500 01/49 06317 227,000 EMD 03/65 T/I to EMD/GE for GP35/U25B/U28B, 1965
81C 84B F3B 15-EF 1500 01/49 06318 227,000 EMD 03/65 T/I to EMD/GE GP35/U25B/U28B, 1965
82B F3B 15-EF 1500 02/49 06319 227,000 EMD 03/65 T/I to EMD/GE for GP35/U25B/U28B, 1965
82C 85B F3B 15-EF 1500 02/49 06320 227,000 EMD 03/65 T/I to EMD/GE GP35/U25B/U28B, 1965
83B F3B 15-EF 1500 02/49 06321 227,000 EMD 03/65 T/I to EMD/GE for GP35/U25B/U28B, 1965
83C 86B F3B 15-EF 1500 02/49 06322 227,000 EMD 03/65 T/I to EMD/GE GP35/U25B/U28B, 1965
84A 107C F7A 15-EF 1500 05/49 06323 236,000 EMD 05/80 T/I to EMD/GE GP35/U25B/U28B, 1965
84D 106C F7A 15-EF 1500 05/49 06324 236,000 EMD 10/74 To PNC,scrapped
85A 108C F7A 15-EF 1500 05/49 06325 235,000 EMD 05/80 T/I to EMD/GE for GP35/U25B/U28B, 1965
85D 112C F7B 15-EF 1500 05/49 06326 226,000 EMD 05/80 T/I to EMD/GE for GP35/U25B/U28B, 1965
84B 106B F7B 15-EF 1500 05/49 06327 226,000 EMD 05/80 T/I to EMD/GE for GP35/U25B/U28B, 1965
84C 107B F7B 15-EF 1500 05/49 06328 226,000 EMD 05/80 T/I to EMD/GE for GP35/U25B/U28B, 1965
85B 108B F7B 15-EF 1500 05/49 06329 226,000 EMD 05/80 T/I to EMD/GE for GP35/U25B/U28B, 1965
85C 112B F7B 15-EF 1500 05/49 06330 226,000 EMD 05/80 T/I to EMD/GE for GP35/U25B/U28B, 1965
586 SDL39 23-ERS-6 2300 11/72 07345-1 280,000 EMD 02/85 HLCX 586 WC 586 To Wisconsin Central, 1988
587 SDL39 23-ERS-6 2300 11/72 07345-2 280,000 EMD 02/85 HLCX 587 WC 587 To Wisconsin Central, 1988
588 SDL39 23-ERS-6 2300 11/72 07345-3 280,000 EMD 02/85 HLCX 588 WC 588 To Wisconsin Central, 1988
589 SDL39 23-ERS-6 2300 11/72 07345-4 280,000 EMD 02/85 HLCX 589 WC 589 To Wisconsin Central, 1988
590 SDL39 23-ERS-6 2300 11/72 07345-5 280,000 EMD 02/85 HLCX 590 WC 590 To Wisconsin Central, 1988
2000A 696A TR2A 12/49 07919 247,000 EMD 05/80 09/78 To PNC 09/78
2000B 696B TR2B 12/49 07920 247,000 EMD 05/80 08/79 To PNC 08/79
86A 112A F7A 15-EF 1500 11/49 07944 234,000 EMD 03/65 T/I to EMD/GE for GP35/U25B/U28B, 1965
87A F7A 15-EF 1500 10/49 07945 235,000 EMD 05/80 12/81 Scrapped @Chrome Locomotive, Silvis, IL, 12/81
87C F7A 15-EF 1500 10/49 07946 235,000 EMD 05/80
88A F7A 15-EF 1500 10/49 07947 235,000 EMD 05/78 09/78 To PNC,scrapped
88C F7A 15-EF 1500 10/49 07948 235,000 EMD 05/80 06/82 To ChromeLocomotive 06/82 via Silcott
89A F7A 15-EF 1500 10/49 07949 235,000 EMD 05/80 02/81 To PNC,scrapped
89C F7A 15-EF 1500 10/49 07950 235,000 EMD 05/80 01/82 Scrapped @Chrome Locomotive, Silvis, IL, 12/81
87B F7B 15-EF 1500 10/49 07951 230,000 EMD 01/77 08/77 To PNC,scrapped
88B F7B 15-EF 1500 10/49 07952 230,000 EMD 05/80
89B F7B 15-EF 1500 10/49 07953 230,000 EMD 05/80 06/80 Scrapped @Chrome Locomotive, Silvis, IL, 07/80
74B F7B 15-EF 1500 12/49 07954 230,000 EMD 05/80 T/I do EMD/GE forGP35/U25B/U28B, 1965
75B F7B 15-EF 1500 12/49 07955 230,000 EMD 05/80 T/I do EMD/GE forGP35/U25B/U28B, 1965
76B F7B 15-EF 1500 12/49 07956 230,000 EMD 05/80 T/I do EMD/GE forGP35/U25B/U28B, 1965
77B F7B 15-EF 1500 12/49 07957 230,000 EMD 05/80 04/80 Scrapped @Chrome Locomotive, Silvis, IL, 12/81
78B F7B 15-EF 1500 12/49 07958 230,000 EMD 05/80 T/I do EMD/GE forGP35/U25B/U28B, 1965
79B F7B 15-EF 1500 12/49 07959 230,000 EMD 05/80 T/I do EMD/GE forGP35/U25B/U28B, 1965
74A F7A 15-EF 1500 12/49 08389 235,000 EMD 05/80 T/I do EMD/GE forGP35/U25B/U28B, 1965
74C F7A 15-EF 1500 12/49 08390 235,000 EMD 05/80 T/I do EMD/GE forGP35/U25B/U28B, 1965
75A F7A 15-EF 1500 12/49 08391 235,000 EMD 05/80 T/I do EMD/GE forGP35/U25B/U28B, 1965
75C F7A 15-EF 1500 12/49 08392 235,000 EMD 05/80 T/I do EMD/GE forGP35/U25B/U28B, 1965
76A F7A 15-EF 1500 12/49 08393 235,000 EMD 05/80 T/I do EMD/GE forGP35/U25B/U28B, 1965
76C F7A 15-EF 1500 12/49 08394 235,000 EMD 05/80
77A F7A 15-EF 1500 12/49 08395 235,000 EMD 10/74 To PNC, scrapped
77C 82A F7A 15-EF 1500 12/49 08396 235,000 EMD 05/80 05/84 To MadRiver & NKP Railway Society, Bellevue, OH
78A F7A 15-EF 1500 12/49 08397 235,000 EMD 05/80
78C F7A 15-EF 1500 12/49 08398 235,000 EMD 05/80
79A F7A 15-EF 1500 12/49 08399 235,000 EMD 01/78 03/78 To PNC,scrapped
79C F7A 15-EF 1500 12/49 08400 235,000 EMD 01/77 08/77 To PNC,scrapped
69A F7A 15-EF 1500 07/50 10311 234,000 EMD 10/74 To PNC, scrapped
69C F7A 15-EF 1500 07/50 10312 234,000 EMD 05/78 09/78 To PNC,scrapped
70A F7A 15-EF 1500 07/50 10313 234,000 EMD 05/80
70C F7A 15-EF 1500 07/50 10314 234,000 EMD 05/80 10/80 To Chrome Locomotive, scrapped
71A F7A 15-EF 1500 07/50 10315 234,000 EMD 01/76 06/76 To PNC,scrapped
71C F7A 15-EF 1500 07/50 10316 234,000 EMD 05/78 10/78 To PNC,scrapped
72A F7A 15-EF 1500 07/50 10317 234,000 EMD 05/80
72C 83C F7A 15-EF 1500 07/50 10318 234,000 EMD 05/80 Indiana Transport Museum, Noblesville, IN
73A F7A 15-EF 1500 07/50 10319 234,000 EMD 05/80
73C F7A 15-EF 1500 07/50 10320 234,000 EMD 05/80
68A F7A 15-EF 1500 07/50 10321 234,000 EMD 05/80 12/84 To Midwest Steel, scrapped
68C F7A 15-EF 1500 07/50 10322 234,000 EMD 05/80 Scrapped @ Chrome Locomotive, Silvis, IL, 12/81
90A 60A FP7A 15-EP 1500 06/50 10323 243,000 EMD 05/80 05/82 To Webster Tech College, Sindey NE, 03/84; To Mountain Diesel (Dale Sanders)
1986
90C 60C FP7A 15-EP 1500 06/50 10324 243,000 EMD 05/80 05/76 To PNC,scrapped
91A 61A FP7A 15-EP 1500 06/50 10325 243,000 EMD 05/78 09/78 To PNC,scrapped
91C 61C FP7A 15-EP 1500 06/50 10326 243,000 EMD 05/78 09/78 To PNC,scrapped
92A 62A FP7A 15-EP 1500 06/50 10327 243,000 EMD 05/80
92C 62C FP7A 15-EP 1500 06/50 10328 243,000 EMD 05/80
93A 63A FP7A 15-EP 1500 06/50 10329 243,000 EMD 05/80 01/81 GO 910 Sold to GO Transit
93C 63C FP7A 15-EP 1500 06/50 10330 243,000 EMD 10/74 10/80 To Chrome Locomotive, scrapped
94A 64A FP7A 15-EP 1500 06/50 10331 243,000 EMD 06/77 08/77 To PNC,scrapped
94C 64C FP7A 15-EP 1500 06/50 10332 243,000 EMD 10/74 08/77 To PNC,scrapped
69B F7B 15-EF 1500 07/50 10335 233,000 EMD 05/80 08/77 To PNC,scrapped
70B F7B 15-EF 1500 07/50 10336 233,000 EMD 05/80 To Independent Locomotive
71B F7B 15-EF 1500 07/50 10337 233,000 EMD 05/80 Rotary Snowplow power unit X-1
72B F7B 15-EF 1500 07/50 10338 233,000 EMD 10/74 10/78 To PNC,scrapped
73B F7B 15-EF 1500 07/50 10339 233,000 EMD 05/80 12/81 Scrapped @Chrome Locomotive, 12/81
68B F7B 15-EF 1500 07/50 10340 231,000 EMD 05/80 05/83 Indiana Transport Museum, Noblesville, IN
90B 60B F7B 15-EF 1500 06/50 10341 236,000 EMD 05/80 05/82
91B 61B F7B 15-EF 1500 06/50 10342 236,000 EMD 10/74 To PNC,scrapped
92B 62B F7B 15-EF 1500 06/50 10343 236,000 EMD 05/80
93B 63B F7B 15-EF 1500 06/50 10344 236,000 EMD

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Michael: Do you have any info on loadings out of the Chamberlain to Rapid City, S.D. line of the same era? Any breakdowns on the kinds of material shipped? On both lines? Thanks

West of Mitchell, Subdivision 41 of the Minnesota-Dakota Division went from Betts to Murdo, 142 miles, and Subdivision 42, Murdo to Rapid City, 144 miles.

Betts to Murdo generally generated about a million dollars, Chamberlain around $350,000 and Kennebec and Vivian with a quarter of a million each were the big originators of carloads on #41, Kadoka generated a quarter of a million on #42, and Rapid City $2.2-2.4 million. Overall, the line paid its way, not by much, but it paid its way.

Murphy Siding didn't generate or receive anything in 1974, but by 1977originated 36 carloads of something for $27,753 in revenue.

I don't know much about the Rapid City branch. It was originally one of the proposed routes of the PCE, and a survey was done from Rapid City west to Butte. I was only on the line once, it was 20 below, and 20 below there seemed a lot colder than 20 below where I come from.

I got to the Rapid City roundhouse, took a picture of a covered wagon out front, and decided it was too d*** cold for me. Whatever traffic they had in Rapid City, I didn't care at that point, and they weren't loading it anyway. I went back to Chicago.

When it was first built at the same time as the PCE, it was wheat country. Then the drought of 1907 put a kibosh on that. Half the settlers Milwaukee brought in left.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol
Murphy Siding didn't generate or receive anything in 1974, but by 1977originated 36 carloads of something for $27,753 in revenue.

That would have been 36 carloads of bentonite. About that time, CNW was derailing a lot of trains coming out of the bentonite mine at Colony, Wyoming, about 80 miles north. For a while,bentonite was trucked to Murphy Siding, dumped on the ground, and loaded into open hoppers with a front end loader. What a gooey mess!
I always wondered what the purpose of the siding had been. Decades before, the fields around there were sugar beet farms. A similar siding, about 10 miles up the road went right up to old loading chutes on a cattle ranch. It was fairly obvious what that one had been for. That siding was named after the ranch- HO Siding.

[MichaelSol]

Well, if I get a chance, I'll look at the revenue history of Murphy Siding and see when they were loading there.

[MichaelSol]

Earnings history of Murphy Siding -- the Milwaukee Road rail siding, not the Trains forum member -- back to 1950:

1977, $27,753
1976, $900
1975, 0
1974, $13,371
1973, $1,223
1972, $15,618
1971, $19,125
1970, $72,543
1969, $17,801
1968, $25,154
1967, $27,188
1966, $32,762
1965, $64,256
1964, $5,943
1963, $339
1962, $12,213
1961, $2,369
1960, 0
1959, 0
1958, 0
1957, 0
1956, 0
1955, 0
1954, $9,770
1953, 0
1952, 0
1951, 0
1950, 0

Interesting, happened to notice 1974, only 4 carloads were originating, 11 were terminating.

[Murphy Siding]

Thanks for the info Michael. Eleven carloads terminating? At a little siding in the weeds? There was two big propane tanks there, that were used to fill propane delivery trucks. Is propane hauled by railroads?

[blhanel]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol

Earnings history of Murphy Siding -- the Milwaukee Road rail siding, not the Trains forum member -- back to 1950:

Darn, I was going to make a wisecrack about that, but you clarified that before I could.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by blhanel

QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol

Earnings history of Murphy Siding -- the Milwaukee Road rail siding, not the Trains forum member -- back to 1950:

Darn, I was going to make a wisecrack about that, but you clarified that before I could.

[(-D][(-D]Ha! I didn't even notice that part![;)]

[rrandb]

Does anyone here have any idea how 1 lightweight combination/baggage car and 3 lightweight baggage cars with MILW reporting marks have ended up in an abandoned yard on the west side of Rockfort, IL. There is also a boxcar, flatcar, a crane and two steam tenders possibly from the IC They appear to have been last used as MOW equipment.There is more info and photo's at the link below. http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=67209

[Murphy Siding]

I read that the MILW line from Yankton, to Platte, S.D. was the first district on the railroad to fully dieselize, around 1950. The line, now gone, was a grain-gathering line built with 60# rail and not much ballast. Several 1% grades convinced the railroad to buy Alco RSC-2's for the line. Does anyone know what areas were to last to dieselize? You would have thought branchlines in the boonies wouldn't be a big priority.

[Murphy Siding]

I read that The Milwaukee Road purchased the first SD7 in April,1952, and the first SD, in early 1954. Anybody know if that is indeed true, and if any are still around?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by martin.knoepfel

A to Snoqualmie: why didn't BN buy the Snoqualmie-pass-line and shut it's own line down if the MILW had the better alignment?

The BN did own the Snoqualimie Pass line from 1980 to 1990 but never because the CEO at the time had interests else where and a rockslide sometime in the mid 80s sealed its fate an some time in 1987/88 the tracks were removed from ceder falls to Easton, the tracks from Renton to Ceder Falls remained so the BN could reach the branch line to Snoqualimie to serve a lumber mill but it closed in late 1990 and the track were removed in early 1991 I think

BTW: I am not sure if the dates are correct

[ericmanke]

Murphy Siding,
Yes, the Milwaukee Road did recieve the first production SD7s. The demonstator was purchased by the Southern Pacific. As far as the disposition of those first SD7s. I assume a few of them were rebuilt into SD10s, but I'm not really sure.

Eric

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericmanke

Murphy Siding,
Yes, the Milwaukee Road did recieve the first production SD7s. The demonstator was purchased by the Southern Pacific. As far as the disposition of those first SD7s. I assume a few of them were rebuilt into SD10s, but I'm not really sure.

Eric

Were SD7s and SD9s both rebuilt into SD10s?

[kenneo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol

Colstrip to Big Stone Power Plant. BN originated the train at Colstrip, and Milwaukee took the train at Miles City, one of the Eleven Western Gateways under the BN merger. Each company supplied half the power for a run-through operation. It generated about $2.5 million a year for Milwaukee.

Bechtel Corp. designed the car covers for Milwaukee and I believe the covers were part of the order for the coal cars.

BNSF still does that run. I hear them all day and night when I'm in Aberdeen,S.D. The cars with covers must be long gone.

The cars are probably long gone, but if not, the BN was not a fan of putting extra items on their cars -- like roofs that had to be removed for unloading and loading. I would imagine they disappeared as soon as the BN could arrange it.

[Murphy Siding]

     One of my nieces goes to high school in Faith, S.D.  She said that Faith got it's name when the Milwaukee Road came into town(and the town came into being).  There were to be three towns in a row:  Faith, Hope, and Charity.  In a later period of time, they could have been named Larry, Curley, and Moe, but that's a whole different story.  Unfortuneately, Faith was to be the end of the line.  The (Isabell(?) ) branch, and the Milwaukee Road are long gone..  From every photo I've seen of trains in Faith, it appears that the only freight was cattle and wool.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by martin.knoepfel

A to Snoqualmie: why didn't BN buy the Snoqualmie-pass-line and shut it's own line down if the MILW had the better alignment?

The BN did own the Snoqualimie Pass line from 1980 to 1990 but never because the CEO at the time had interests else where and a rockslide sometime in the mid 80s sealed its fate an some time in 1987/88 the tracks were removed from ceder falls to Easton, the tracks from Renton to Ceder Falls remained so the BN could reach the branch line to Snoqualimie to serve a lumber mill but it closed in late 1990 and the track were removed in early 1991 I think

BTW: I am not sure if the dates are correct

It should be noted that at the time BN decided to forego operating the Snoqualmie Pass line it also had decided to shut down the Stampede Pass line as well.  BN opted for the Columbia Gorge line as the preferred low grade route to the coast, and Stevens Pass for the intermodals, and everything else became redundant trackage in their view.

Although Snoqualmie Pass is superior to Stevens Pass, since BN would have only operated over ex-Milwaukee tracks from the Ellensburg area to the coast and not the Lind to Ellensburg section, any traffic over a Snoqualmie Pass reroute would still have to ply the ex-NP through the Yakima Valley and the Yakima River Canyon which is a low speed route and is much longer mileage between Spokane and Seattle than either the ex-PCE or Stevens Pass.   It would have taken an extra crew district and another 8 to 10 hours via Yakima/Snoqualmie as compared to Stevens Pass when coming from Spokane to Seattle.

By the time BN figured out it might actually need a third rail line between Spokane and Seattle, the Milwaukee rails were long gone, and only the Stampede pass rails had remained mothballed.

[Anonymous]

On train rides:
I just checked out, "The Olympian - A Ride to Remember," from the library through inter-library loan.  I'm just getting into it.  It's good.  Like the poster above, the author also remarks how smooth the ride was.  Those trains were obviously tops in their class back in the day.

Would also like to say that I can understand how people can feel strongly and the Milwaukee Road, or other railroads.  Some grew up with the railroad and were part of railroad families, and I can understand how it must feel for them to see that whole life's worth of memories wiped out.  Kind of like seeing your childhood home bulldozed, but maybe worse.  Seems to me the Milwaukee did not have to go down the path it did, so I understand the frustration of the people who were there to see the company get totally wiped out in the matter of a few years by a few determined people.  I would also like to say "sorry" for any negative comments I made here about people who have strong feelings today about the Milwaukee or any other railroad.  Thought this "non-confrontational" thread would be the right place to say this.

[MichaelSol]

On train rides:
I just checked out, "The Olympian - A Ride to Remember," from the library through inter-library loan.  I'm just getting into it.  It's good.  Like the poster above, the author also remarks how smooth the ride was.  Those trains were obviously tops in their class back in the day.

The author, Stan Johnson, is completing another book on the Milwaukee -- dealing with the construction of the Pacific Coast Extension. A big undertaking. His stepfather, Frank Feeblecorn, "Feebie," was a well-known and beloved conductor on the Milwaukee.

A mutual friend, Charlie Rock, a long-time Milwaukee Road conductor at Alberton, Montana, died Wednesday, and we both just heard about it this morning. Stan posted the following comment:

"I am personally saddened by Charlie's passing. I have spent a number of
hours with him talking Milwaukee as his father and my step-father worked
closely together and there were lots of stories to tell.

"Charlie remembered being carried as a lad onto the train by dad, bound for a hospital in Spokane after severely injuring his leg. Charlies' brother and my family are old friends and his brother preached my step-father's funeral sermon."

Small world at Milwaukee Road.

Stan's new book is the most detailed look at the construction of the PCE yet written, and will be a milestone insofar as technical books about construction of transcontinental railways in the U.S.. I was humbled to be asked to write the foreword for the book.

[Murphy Siding]

On train rides:
I just checked out, "The Olympian - A Ride to Remember," from the library through inter-library loan.  I'm just getting into it.  It's good.  Like the poster above, the author also remarks how smooth the ride was.  Those trains were obviously tops in their class back in the day.

The author, Stan Johnson, is completing another book on the Milwaukee -- dealing with the construction of the Pacific Coast Extension. A big undertaking. His stepfather, Frank Feeblecorn, "Feebie," was a well-known and beloved conductor on the Milwaukee.

A mutual friend, Charlie Rock, a long-time Milwaukee Road conductor at Alberton, Montana, died Wednesday, and we both just heard about it this morning. Stan posted the following comment:

"I am personally saddened by Charlie's passing. I have spent a number of
hours with him talking Milwaukee as his father and my step-father worked
closely together and there were lots of stories to tell.

"Charlie remembered being carried as a lad onto the train by dad, bound for a hospital in Spokane after severely injuring his leg. Charlies' brother and my family are old friends and his brother preached my step-father's funeral sermon."

Small world at Milwaukee Road.

Stan's new book is the most detailed look at the construction of the PCE yet written, and will be a milestone insofar as technical books about construction of transcontinental railways in the U.S.. I was humbled to be asked to write the foreword for the book.

Yes, I resurrected an old thread-sue me!

     I see from another thread, that the Stanley Johnson book is out now.  What can anyone tell me about the book?   Thanks

[Brooklyn Trolley Dodger]

  So how is the Snowmobiling on on the Mil. Road? Do they groom any part of it and are the bridges in place?

[Bob-Fryml]

     One of my nieces goes to high school in Faith, S.D.  She said that Faith got it's name when the Milwaukee Road came into town(and the town came into being).  There were to be three towns in a row:  Faith, Hope, and Charity.  In a later period of time, they could have been named Larry, Curley, and Moe, but that's a whole different story.  Unfortuneately, Faith was to be the end of the line.  The (Isabell(?) ) branch, and the Milwaukee Road are long gone..  From every photo I've seen of trains in Faith, it appears that the only freight was cattle and wool.

Quite a few years ago Trains editor David P. Morgan took up the Faith branch as a kind of cause celebre, specifically as an example of the unconsitutional taking of private property (from The Milwaukee Road stockholders) for dubious public benefit.  

Apparently the line was losing a lot of money, but the I.C.C. kept foot dragging about abandonment undoubtedly in response to pressure from the South Dakota congressional delegation.  Fortunately the proceedings in this case gave rise to a novel idea, one which made it easier to determine whether a line was worth keeping or not.  The Commission applied a new notion wherein the line could be considered viable if it could generate X-number of revenue carloads per route mile per year.  The line fell way short of the Commission's formula, the prospects for the line's future didn't look too hot either, so the abandonment petition was granted.

About three years ago I was driving from Aberdeen to Deadwood and decided to follow as much of this line as I could.  Wow, you talk about a nowhere-to-nowhere operation ... I was just amazed.  Heck, the revenue generating capacity of the Murdo/Rapid City line was a freight heavy-hauler compared to what I saw out there in the northwest quarter of So.Dak.!  It's a wonder that the line lasted as long as it did!

[MichaelSol]

All that empty country is where cows and sheep are raised in large numbers. Faith was a fairly typical granger line, and did well on sheep and cattle until trucks were just a better option for moving them, but then it briefly sprung back to life in the early 1970s. A 106 mile branch, DuCharme to Faith:

1951: $607,609

1952: $667,639

1953: $482,254

1954: $426,004

1955: $393,916

1956:$310,450

1957: $196,025

1958: $298,059

1959: $251,799

1960 $95,817

1961 $153,374

1962 $269,547

1963 $78,534

1964 $135,913

1965  $216,522

1966 $321,324

1967 $190,138

1968 $77,147

1969 $151,847

1970  $123,464

1971  $246,445

1972 $575,899

1973 $529,850

1974 $235,408

1975 $90,066

1976 $202,899

1977 $95,951

Unless they did some uncharacteristic maintenance, I doubt the line lost a "lot" of money, but probably had a couple of years -- and trend lines -- that it could be made as a poster child for granger line abandonment.

 

 

 

[Randy Stahl]

Michael,

Did you ever partake of Milw coffee ? I'm not talking about the stuff in the dining cars or the office coffee.

[MichaelSol]

Michael,

Did you ever partake of Milw coffee ? I'm not talking about the stuff in the dining cars or the office coffee.

You will have to explain that one to me, Randy.

[Randy Stahl]

he coffee pots we had in Milwaukee looked they had been coupled in !! The coffee didn't exactly perculate as such but more or less just boiled until someone turned it off or unplugged it . I had a bit of... texture, It could knock out a hangover in 10 minutes. The guys at the cutoff had a chicory coffee that when cooked correctly would make my eyes water. Sol Luna was the keeper of the coffee and did a fine job. I was thinking about Milw coffee today , I found that in Poland they have "railway" coffee. Nothing has come close to Milw coffee !!

I know that the lines west had the same dented coffee pots , we found bunches of them in boxcars.. and they still worked.

 

[MichaelSol]

Ha!

There was a coffee pot like that East Portal Substation -- I wasn't much of a coffee drinker back then, and the coffee from that pot didn't encourage me any in that direction ...

 

[Randy Stahl]

Ha!

There was a coffee pot like that East Portal Substation -- I wasn't much of a coffee drinker back then, and the coffee from that pot didn't encourage me any in that direction ...

 

All you needed was a hangover and you would have been driven to the Milw coffee.

[Murphy Siding]

 

Quite a few years ago Trains editor David P. Morgan took up the Faith branch as a kind of cause celebre, specifically as an example of the unconsitutional taking of private property (from The Milwaukee Road stockholders) for dubious public benefit.  

Bob-was that an article in Trains Mgazine?  If so, would you happen to know the date?

About three years ago I was driving from Aberdeen to Deadwood and decided to follow as much of this line as I could.  Wow, you talk about a nowhere-to-nowhere operation ... I was just amazed.  Heck, the revenue generating capacity of the Murdo/Rapid City line was a freight heavy-hauler compared to what I saw out there in the northwest quarter of So.Dak.!  It's a wonder that the line lasted as long as it did!

After you leave the metropolis of Mobridge, the population density flirts with negative numbers for a long ways to the west.

[Murphy Siding]

All that empty country is where cows and sheep are raised in large numbers. Faith was a fairly typical granger line, and did well on sheep and cattle until trucks were just a better option for moving them, but then it briefly sprung back to life in the early 1970s. A 106 mile branch, DuCharme to Faith:

1951: $607,609

1952: $667,639

1953: $482,254

1954: $426,004

1955: $393,916

1956:$310,450

1957: $196,025

1958: $298,059

1959: $251,799

1960 $95,817

1961 $153,374

1962 $269,547

1963 $78,534

1964 $135,913

1965  $216,522

1966 $321,324

1967 $190,138

1968 $77,147

1969 $151,847

1970  $123,464

1971  $246,445

1972 $575,899

1973 $529,850

1974 $235,408

1975 $90,066

1976 $202,899

1977 $95,951

Unless they did some uncharacteristic maintenance, I doubt the line lost a "lot" of money, but probably had a couple of years -- and trend lines -- that it could be made as a poster child for granger line abandonment.

I wonder if that branch line maybe got into some of the business involved in the Minuteman missle silos built all over northwestern S.D. during the late 60's and early 70's?

[Durango360]

I would like to thank the orginal poster for the pictures. I have always had an intrest with Milwaukee's PCE.   

 My experience begins not too long ago as I am only 38. In the early 80's my father talked to the track crews off and on and he would take me down to meet them (as I very much liked trains).  Eventually he began to talk to the local engineers, ect....  As time passed we were able to get a ride on one of the locals from Janesville, WI to Davis Jct, IL.  It was somewhere in the neighborhood of 12hrs long.  I wish we had taken pictures but all I have are memories... All I can remember is that there were 3 SW1's and we boarded at the roundhouse in Janesville. (which incedently was were F7 #102C was being stored).   I sat in the firemans seat for most of the trip, I think I was in shock :) .  However somewhere south of South Beloit and under the cover of darkness the engineer let me sit in the engineers seat and blow the whistle at the crossings and under his command adjust the throttle.  For a 13yr old I was in heaven.

Later on in 84-85 my dad and his father started purchasing cabooses from Harold Mahoney that was in charge of scrapping things.  We spent many hours walking around the Milwaukee Shops in Milwaukee, WI  (sorry no pictures as I was still only 14-16years old an my dad just never thought about it.)  I can fondly remember coming in on I-94 and looking down on the rail yards. We came in and drove right next to the turntable and stalls. The roundhouse had previous burned down but they still used the stalls as storage tracks. There was a small concrete wall around the stalls.  Just after that was Harolds office building.   Sitting next to one of the shop buildings under a large roof was Dynometer car X5000?  The one that eventually went to the IL Rwy Museum.  Harold showed us around the shops it was very impressive yet sadding at the same time.  All of the building were empty at the time.  The buildings were the orginal brick buildings not the newer car barns next to the Ba

It saddened me even more when the yard and all the shops were torn down.  Last year I drove by there and it's nothing but parking lots..........

As you can see that even though I knew the Milwaukee Road at the very end of it's life it still touched me very much. The employee's were all very nice.  I just wish I had pictures to go along with the memories.  I have had a hard time trying to find pictures of the Milwaukee shops in Milwaukee.  Why is there so little information on the largest shops on the system? The shops that made the Milwaukee Road.

Thanks for a place to share the memories..........  Todd

[Los Angeles Rams Guy]

My hometown of Edgewood, Iowa was on the Milwaukee Road's branchline that ran between Paralta (just east of Marion) and Jackson Jct. (just west of Calmar).  Memories galore of that.  Also, used to go to Cedar Rapids/Marion a lot as a kid and had numerous sightings of the "Cities" streamliners coming into Marion.  Also, of the River mainline in northeast Iowa (now the ICE and soon to be part of my employer again, the CPRS!) plus the secondary mainline from Marquette westward.

[ButchKnouse]

solzrules: Enjoyed the photos, thanks. About 5 years ago, I was at a wedding in Mobridge. I tried to find the wye for the(long gone) branchline to Faith and Isabell just west of the river, with no luck. I assumed it should have been just accross the bridge, before the line starts climbing. In hindsight, I would bet it's under the river/lake, as the line was gone before the Missouri was dammed up. I *think* that is the third bridge at Mobridge.

The SDL-39: Local legend was that they were ordered for use on light duty branch lines in the Dakotas, but nearly every other picture I see shows them sonewhere in Wisconsin. Anybody know what the range of those beasts was?

Murphy, I know this thread is as old as the hills, but I have a South Dakota issued highway map dated 1973-74 at it shows the Faith and Isabel lines as still being there.

At the Brookings city library they have/had a book listing the abandonment dates of all lines up to the point the book was published. I'm going over today and I'll give it a look. If it's still there I'll remember the title and give it to you in case you're ever up that way.

[ButchKnouse]

I read that the MILW line from Yankton, to Platte, S.D. was the first district on the railroad to fully dieselize, around 1950. The line, now gone, was a grain-gathering line built with 60# rail and not much ballast. Several 1% grades convinced the railroad to buy Alco RSC-2's for the line. Does anyone know what areas were to last to dieselize? You would have thought branchlines in the boonies wouldn't be a big priority.

Murphy, I know it's an old thread, but the Napa Junction to Platte line hasn't been used in 15 years and is weeded over, but it was not removed.

As you have probably already heard, (this post is just in case you haven't) an ethanol plant is being built at Wagner and the line from Napa Junction to Wagner is going to be upgraded to handle 10 MPH trains from the plant, plus I would assume whatever customers are left on the line in between. The are not upgrading to Platte. Dakota Southern is going to operate the line. DS has trackage rights on the BNSF from Mitchell to Sioux City.

[Murphy Siding]

Murphy, I know it's an old thread, but the Napa Junction to Platte line hasn't been used in 15 years and is weeded over, but it was not removed.

As you have probably already heard, (this post is just in case you haven't) an ethanol plant is being built at Wagner and the line from Napa Junction to Wagner is going to be upgraded to handle 10 MPH trains from the plant, plus I would assume whatever customers are left on the line in between. The are not upgrading to Platte. Dakota Southern is going to operate the line. DS has trackage rights on the BNSF from Mitchell to Sioux City.

  Yes, it's an old thread, but a very interesting subject.  I was down in that area about a month ago.  A lot of the line is gone.  Anywhere it crosses a paved highway, it looks like the rails were removed, and the pavement run through.  Also, it seems to have been ripped up where it goes through a town.  Tyndall, for example, seemed to have no trace of the railroad inside town.

     With consideration of the need to rebuild the line almost completely, and, with the beating new ethanol plant proposals are taking, I'd call this project dead in the water at this time.

[videomaker]

  solzrules,

  Thanks for the pics,I dont know anything about the Milw Rd except that I loved to look at the streamlined hudsons and pacifics they had,I believe they were the most beautiful steam train anywhere ! Bar none..I dont understand why "The Road" didnt take down the signal mast and dismantle the substations  but took track and ties up? Was this all that was required to abandon the routes?

[dmitzel]

I can add a bit to this regarding the former MILW mainline thru north-central South Dakota. My dad's family's farmstead was five miles north of Bowdle, SD (MP 763.9). I used to spend summers in the '70s at the farm, and later "in town" when Grandpa and Grandma moved there following retirement from active farming. The mainline was just north of their house on the west side of town, across a field.

My MILW memories were of the Columbia and Big Stone coal trains - grain back then seemed to move intermittently in locals eastward. This was the days before low-moisture corn and soybeans were developed that really changed farming in the area - everything back then was oats, wheat or barley for the most part. Now the ethanol "boom" and rising commodity prices are making this area fruitful again.

When the MILW left for good in '82 Cascade Green took over - what I'd give for those green SD40-2s now - but the railroad pretty much looked the same except for new BN switchstand targets and roadway signs. BNSF has since really wiped what made the line uniquely Milwaukee - the pole line is gone as so is the old US&S CAB (Controled Automatic Block - "poor man's" CTC). Modern hooded ABS signals now stand where constant-lit searchlights once held guard.

To me so much has changed that the Milwaukee's ghosts have moved on, no longer able to recognize the old Aberdeen Division. Still, I'm glad this rail remains active - much better than the weeds covering the ROW west of Terry, MT. I guess in that aspect I can't complain.

[caldreamer]

OK, what caused the demise of the Milkwaukee??

[Bob-Fryml]

 

Quite a few years ago Trains editor David P. Morgan took up the Faith branch as a kind of cause celebre, specifically as an example of the unconsitutional taking of private property (from The Milwaukee Road stockholders) for dubious public benefit.  

Bob-was that an article in Trains Mgazine?  If so, would you happen to know the date?

Murphy:-  It seems to me that the late Mr. Morgan discussed this issue somewhere in a 1968 to 1972 time frame.

/s/ Bob

[Bob-Fryml]

OK, what caused the demise of the Milkwaukee??

WHOO, BOY, ARE YOU OPENING A CAN OF WORMS!   Certain of the learned cognoscenti who have intimate knowledge of The Milwaukee Road's latter day managements and finances have gone into great depth in discussing this issue.  Their presentation of facts and analysis of the railroad's decline have been fascinating reading, and I cannot fully express in any number less than maybe 10,000 words how much I've appreciated the time and effort those folks have put into that discussion.

Unfortunately there have been a few "Northern Lines " types who have stirred up the pot to such hysterical proportions advancing many issues in favor of the big "Cascade Green Machine" that the discussions became quite ugly at times.

So for "IGoldberg" I would suggest that you do a historical word search through this category of threads and pick out a couple of the longer Milwaukee Road discussions and within them read what was written.  You'll not only learn a lot like I did, but you'll also learn why "Murphy Siding" wants to keep this

"A Milwaukee Road Non-confrontational thread."

Peace everyone!  /s/ Bob

  

[Bob-Fryml]

Northlake, Ill. - Tuesday, 22 July 2008. 

Two weeks before the start of Amtrak, I played hooky from college for three days to ride a couple of passenger trains that I always wanted to experience.  On a Thursday I rode the Empire Builder, Chicago-to-Minneapolis, and that following Saturday I rode the Morning Hiawatha back to Chicago.  A Pullman bedroom up and a parlor car seat back - both were great trips!

The Morning Hiawathas, eastbound and westbound, were The Milwaukee Road's last regularly scheduled passenger trains between The Windy City and The Twin Cities.  These schedules had ordinary parlor cars carrying the markers.  With the earlier demise of the Afternoon Hiawathas, the trains that carried the Road's ultra distinctive Skytop Lounge parlor cars, why didn't the company equip the "morning hi's" with this distinctive equipment?

By the early winter of 1971, I should think that The Milwaukee Road management would have already made a commitment to join Railpax (later called Amtrak); so even if the attractiveness of the Skytops would have boosted business a little, what difference would it have made?  

And here's a somewhat related question.  Given that in 1971 both the Burlington Northern and The Milwaukee Road had active passenger lines connecting Chicago with Saint Paul/Minneapolis, when did the National Railroad Passenger Corporation decide to favor the latter's route?  Or did the existence of Milwaukee being the largest intermediate station on either route make that question a no-brainer?

Just curious.

/s/ Bob

[ButchKnouse]

Murphy, I know it's an old thread, but the Napa Junction to Platte line hasn't been used in 15 years and is weeded over, but it was not removed.

As you have probably already heard, (this post is just in case you haven't) an ethanol plant is being built at Wagner and the line from Napa Junction to Wagner is going to be upgraded to handle 10 MPH trains from the plant, plus I would assume whatever customers are left on the line in between. The are not upgrading to Platte. Dakota Southern is going to operate the line. DS has trackage rights on the BNSF from Mitchell to Sioux City.

  Yes, it's an old thread, but a very interesting subject.  I was down in that area about a month ago.  A lot of the line is gone.  Anywhere it crosses a paved highway, it looks like the rails were removed, and the pavement run through.  Also, it seems to have been ripped up where it goes through a town.  Tyndall, for example, seemed to have no trace of the railroad inside town.

     With consideration of the need to rebuild the line almost completely, and, with the beating new ethanol plant proposals are taking, I'd call this project dead in the water at this time.

Are the ROW berms gone too? Too bad if they are, with the rising price of fuel it would be a shame to tear up a ROW now.

As far as the book at the Brookings library, I wasn't able to stay as long as I thought I could, but I last saw it in the books about South Dakota section.

On my way to Brookings I got a big suprise. They are laying new track on the DM&E. The last time they laid new track it ended between Hetland and Lake Preston. I assume they started at that point and are working their way to Wolsey. Which means uninterupted heavy welded rail from Springfield, Minnesota to Pierre, probably 250-300 miles. I just assume it's welded, since the last stretch was. After they get through Cavour I'll go out and have a look and find out for sure. They were 5 miles east of Cavour yesterday, heading west, which puts them roughly 26 miles from Wolsey. The trains haul butt through Miller when I'm there on Fridays, so they'll start going through Cavour quick too. I imagine the westbounders will be slowing down for the stop in Huron, but the eastbounders will be moving. (Huron is a division point with no through trains that I'm aware of.) Plus, supposedly there is a speed restriction on the James River viaduct.

R.J. Corman's men brought big load of equipement. They got lucky with the Manchester and Iroquois sidings no longer being used, both sidings were in use.

As long as we're on the topic of the Milwaukee Road, I have to say they had the prettiest locomotives and the ugliest switches. In Pierre there are at least 2 places where people are using Milwaukee Road switches as lawn decorations. And all Pierre ever has had was CN&W/DM&E.

Murphy, if you ever want to send me a direct e-mail, there's a link on the Huset's site under Past Winners and Champions.

[nanaimo73]

There is some interesting stuff on this website covering the western remains of the CMSP&P-

http://r67northern.blogspot.com:80/

[Los Angeles Rams Guy]

Northlake, Ill. - Tuesday, 22 July 2008. 

Two weeks before the start of Amtrak, I played hooky from college for three days to ride a couple of passenger trains that I always wanted to experience.  On a Thursday I rode the Empire Builder, Chicago-to-Minneapolis, and that following Saturday I rode the Morning Hiawatha back to Chicago.  A Pullman bedroom up and a parlor car seat back - both were great trips!

The Morning Hiawathas, eastbound and westbound, were The Milwaukee Road's last regularly scheduled passenger trains between The Windy City and The Twin Cities.  These schedules had ordinary parlor cars carrying the markers.  With the earlier demise of the Afternoon Hiawathas, the trains that carried the Road's ultra distinctive Skytop Lounge parlor cars, why didn't the company equip the "morning hi's" with this distinctive equipment?

By the early winter of 1971, I should think that The Milwaukee Road management would have already made a commitment to join Railpax (later called Amtrak); so even if the attractiveness of the Skytops would have boosted business a little, what difference would it have made?  

And here's a somewhat related question.  Given that in 1971 both the Burlington Northern and The Milwaukee Road had active passenger lines connecting Chicago with Saint Paul/Minneapolis, when did the National Railroad Passenger Corporation decide to favor the latter's route?  Or did the existence of Milwaukee being the largest intermediate station on either route make that question a no-brainer?

Just curious.

/s/ Bob

Ultimately I think it had to be because of the MILW's mainline serving Milwaukee.  On the former "Q" mainline, besides Aurora, all you had pretty much was Savanna, Prairie Du Chien (45 miles from my hometown in N.E. Iowa), and La Crosse.  Ironically, a similar situation existed in the Chicago - Omaha corridor where both the BN and MILW had active passenger service.  Here, it was a bit of the opposite even though the MILW went through the Cedar Rapids suburb of Marion and Perry is roughly 35 miles from Des Moines.  I can't help but wonder sometimes if Amtrak had chosen the MILW for the Chicago - Omaha segment if the mainline from Green Island to Council Bluffs wouldn't be alive and kicking today.   

[MichaelSol]

And here's a somewhat related question.  Given that in 1971 both the Burlington Northern and The Milwaukee Road had active passenger lines connecting Chicago with Saint Paul/Minneapolis, when did the National Railroad Passenger Corporation decide to favor the latter's route?  Or did the existence of Milwaukee being the largest intermediate station on either route make that question a no-brainer?

The City of Milwaukee was no doubt the compelling factor. However, in 1982, the Milwaukee did a thorough modeling of the double-track between Chicago and Twin Cities with the idea of consolidation into a single track CTC line. Conventional studies had shown that the line would not benefit from the double track for another thirty years, at the then-rate of traffic increase.

Milwaukee President W.L. Smith, a former BN Vice President, really liked that double track as he knew from the standpoint of having been on the "other side" the competitive advantage that Milwaukee had on that route because of the double track. He took Trustee Ogilvie and Federal Judge McMillen over the line in a business car behind a Sprint, showing the Trustee and the Judge the very good scheduling that the double main and rolling crew changes permitted. "We offered service better than the truckers, and virtually all of our traffic on the Sprints was taken off the highways."

However, conventional wisdom at the time called for consolidation of such lines at the traffic levels that the Milwaukee was operating. But, as Smith told me, in terms of service "nobody could beat the Milwaukee on that route" and he felt that obtaining and preserving that distinctive advantage -- contrary to the policy of the FRA and DOT at the time -- was what railroading was all about.

Booz-Allen-Hamilton did a study of the proposed consolidation, and Jim Schwinkendorf, Asst VP Planning, did an internal study. The results showed that operating costs were lower with the double-track because of the scheduling advantages that reduced equipment needs. Further, only the double track allowed the Sprint schedules, and a consolidation would substantially reduce Milwaukee's on-time bonuses received from Amtrak: one of the best on-time performance records on the Amtrak system.

Modern Railroads did an article on the interesting results, and the double-track mainline was, at that time, saved purely as a result of a pretty thorough cost/benefit analysis. But, those studies produced results all very contrary to the existing conventional wisdom -- a conventional wisdom that was otherwise driving line consolidation in the United States.

Whether that understanding -- of the double main's efficiency -- played a role in Amtrak's decision much earlier to use the line was probably "a" consideration, but most likely because Milwaukee's AM and PM Hiawatha's were the most successful of the passenger services on the corridor at the time of Amtrak's creation, likely because of the City of Milwaukee's presence, but perhaps because the train service had always been so reliable.

 

[zardoz]

Modern Railroads did an article on the interesting results, and the double-track mainline was, at that time, saved, purely as a result of a pretty thorough cost/benefit analysis. Whether that understanding played a role in Amtrak's decision much earlier to use the line was probably "a" consideration, but most likely because Milwaukee's AM and PM Hiawatha's were the most successful of the passenger services on the corridor at the time of Amtrak's creation, likely because of the City of Milwaukee's presence, but perhaps because the train service had always been so reliable.

There is still a fair amount of 39' stik rail on track #1 of the Chicago-Milwaukee CP route.  About 15 years ago I asked a track gang foreman about it (they were resurfacing the line at the time).  He said the stik rail was kept because the (back then) plan WAS to single-track even the C&M (Chicago-Milwaukee) subdivision, with the stik rail track to be used as sidings. 

There was even much talk regarding combining the C&M subdivision of the (then) SOO and the New Line of the (then) C&NW between Bryn Mawr and Milwaukee, and possibly beyond. They even talked about doing directional running utilizing both the C&M and the New Line.  However, I never did find out exactly where in Milwaukee the lines were going to part.

About 5 years later, I was talking to a signal maintainer (on the same C&M sub) that was redoing the wiring at a crossing.  He said that all of the crossings were being rewired in anticipation of high-speed (110mph) Hiawatha trains.

Quite a turn-around.

[MichaelSol]

There is still a fair amount of 39' stik rail on track #1 of the Chicago-Milwaukee CP route.  About 15 years ago I asked a track gang foreman about it (they were resurfacing the line at the time). 

I was over that line during that resurfacing work, between LaCrosse and Columbus, and was surprised to see the former Milwaukee crews still wearing their Milwaukee Road hardhats, and even some equipment with the canted red logo. Surprised, because the Soo Line had initially tried to obliterate everything "Milwaukee Road". The Milwaukee "presence" on those work crews was so conspicuous as to appear to me to be a point of pride. As I went through, I thought "how on earth are they getting away with that?" 

[bobwilcox]

And here's a somewhat related question.  Given that in 1971 both the Burlington Northern and The Milwaukee Road had active passenger lines connecting Chicago with Saint Paul/Minneapolis, when did the National Railroad Passenger Corporation decide to favor the latter's route?  Or did the existence of Milwaukee being the largest intermediate station on either route make that question a no-brainer?

Just curious.

/s/ Bob

We at the Northwestern helped out with a presentation to Railpax, in the week after we joined, saying the Milwaukee was the superior route via Chicago-Milwaukee-St. Paul.

[Los Angeles Rams Guy]

There is still a fair amount of 39' stik rail on track #1 of the Chicago-Milwaukee CP route.  About 15 years ago I asked a track gang foreman about it (they were resurfacing the line at the time). 

I was over that line during that resurfacing work, between LaCrosse and Columbus, and was surprised to see the former Milwaukee crews still wearing their Milwaukee Road hardhats, and even some equipment with the canted red logo. Surprised, because the Soo Line had initially tried to obliterate everything "Milwaukee Road". The Milwaukee "presence" on those work crews was so conspicuous as to appear to me to be a point of pride. As I went through, I thought "how on earth are they getting away with that?" 

Actually, the provincialism doesn't surprise me that much.  When I first started working for the CPRS in 1995 as an Agent/Operator in Enderlin, North Dakota, some of the former Soo Line guys up there kidded me about wearing my Milwaukee Road jacket to work one day saying "that's a 4-letter word up here". 

[MichaelSol]

Actually, the provincialism doesn't surprise me that much.  When I first started working for the CPRS in 1995 as an Agent/Operator in Enderlin, North Dakota, some of the former Soo Line guys up there kidded me about wearing my Milwaukee Road jacket to work one day saying "that's a 4-letter word up here". 

W.L. Smith retired rather than have anything to do with Dennis Cavanaugh. Another Milwaukee employee recalls:

"My personal experience with this subject came with the involvement of disposing of all Milw assets remaining in the Chicago Union Station headquarters after the Milw sale. I was retained under contract to "sell off" all items housed in that building with specific instructions to especially eliminate all items that referred to the Milw name.

"These instructions came direct from Dennis Cavanaugh, Chairman SooLine Railroad. I never met Cavanaugh in person, but with my personal telephone conversations with him, it was obvious he hated the Milw with a passion and would do what ever possible to marr its good name. One specific quote I recall him making was "what kind of chicken s_ _ _ outfit did I buy" which was directed to Milw management in the handling of "excess" personnel, which at the time was also my responsibility to eliminate along with "railroad memorabilia and furniture". 

"In the disposition of these items, the Soo was not concerned with selling everything at fair market value, ... . Having negotiated rates and contracts with the SooLine for years prior to the "take over" it was obvious they were nothing more than a dollar saving railroad and that is all they were concerned with."

 

[Los Angeles Rams Guy]

As much as I loved the Milwaukee Road (and always will), to say that I was somewhat "ticked off" when the Trustee and Senior Management threw their support behind the Evil Empire (a.k.a. the CNW) in late '84 would be the understatement of the year.  In that regard, I can't really say I'm surprised at the dissension and animosity that likely existed.

[zardoz]

As much as I loved the Milwaukee Road (and always will), to say that I was somewhat "ticked off" when the Trustee and Senior Management threw their support behind the Evil Empire (a.k.a. the CNW) in late '84 would be the understatement of the year.  In that regard, I can't really say I'm surprised at the dissension and animosity that likely existed.

I've heard the CNW called many things over the years, but "Evil Empire" is new. Does that make Heineman equivalent to Chancellor Palpatine?

I'm not saying it's wrong or misleading, just that I never heard that one.

[CGW]

As much as I loved the Milwaukee Road (and always will), to say that I was somewhat "ticked off" when the Trustee and Senior Management threw their support behind the Evil Empire (a.k.a. the CNW) in late '84 would be the understatement of the year.  In that regard, I can't really say I'm surprised at the dissension and animosity that likely existed.

I've heard the CNW called many things over the years, but "Evil Empire" is new. Does that make Heineman equivalent to Chancellor Palpatine?

I'm not saying it's wrong or misleading, just that I never heard that one.

I thought only CGW fans dislike the CNW.

Jeff

[CPRguy]

I love to work on the old MILW Rd. lines.  I Have been working for CPR for 4 years now, and love to talk to the old MILW guys about the "good o' days".  I remember one guy telling me that if and when they would get a new bucket of track bolts or spikes that some of the guys on the section would bring them home so the gangs wouldn't come and take them.  otherwise a common pratice was the go though the scrap pile and look for any useable bolts and spikes, and then go though it again just to make sure.  Also, there is a common term we use on the section and it is to "Red Wing plug it."  Thats when you either don't plug the spike hole at all or use dirt!  Very common on the Red Wing, MN MOW section.  It just goes to show you that they really didn't have anything.  Has anyone checked out this link?  I know its just one man's opinion. but I liked it.  http://www.trainweb.org/milwaukee/article.html

One of the things I heard is that when the SOO bought the MILW they only bought somethings and one thing that they didn't buy was the MILW name.  Thats why there was such a mad scramble to cover everything that bared the Milwaukee Road name.  I still do find some things that have the MILW name like a note pad at my desk, a wheel barrow that was used around the yard to pick up the dropped grain that still has the lettering C.M.stP.P on it, and switch plates, etc, etc.

 Thanks

[mrmikel]

There was another thread...whatever happened to the Milwaukee Road?  I guess it generated a lot of heat.

But the answer to what happened really is the Milwaukee Road could not run trains on time.  261 and 262 had to run on time to get the auto business and each division was run as if it were a separate railroad.

I heard tales of how the Coast Division (out of Tacoma, WA) would get their trains over the road on time by getting them all into the Avery yard which if my feeble memory serves only had four tracks, completely clogging it.  Coast Division did its job alright..then the Mountain Division had to somehow manage the mess.

For some reason, trains getting to Avery always had to be switched, shorts ahead, longs back in order to keep from pulling the long cars off the many curves to the top of the pass at East Portal. Why this was not done elsewhere, don't ask me.

Then the decision was made to abandon electrification just as the point when oil prices skyrocketed... but copper was high at the point, just as it is today, so they were all for scapping.

But continuing electrification never did quite pencil out because there was just not quite enough traffic, especially when there was a non electrified space from Othello, WA to Avery Idaho. So any decision on updating electrification included building many miles of new catenary and substations.

By the time the decsion had to be made, the substations on both Mountain and Coast Divisions were museum piece and nothing was stock.  Electricity (3000 volts DC) to power the trails was generated by motor generator sets...a great idea when started, but mightly behind the times in the 70s.

Milwauke Road, especially as a transcontinental railroad was always an iffy proposition.  But excellent management could have made it go.  But it did not have it.

[MichaelSol]

But continuing electrification never did quite pencil out because there was just not quite enough traffic, especially when there was a non electrified space from Othello, WA to Avery Idaho. So any decision on updating electrification included building many miles of new catenary and substations.

By the time the decsion had to be made, the substations on both Mountain and Coast Divisions were museum piece and nothing was stock.  Electricity (3000 volts DC) to power the trails was generated by motor generator sets...a great idea when started, but mightly behind the times in the 70s.

It penciled out just fine.

Some relatively random notes from one Power Company study:

The extension and expansion of the electrified sections of the Milwaukee Road will payout. The first fifteen years of operation will yield a small profit whose present value in 1974 is estimated to be $194,562. In the sixteenth year when the second generation of diesel locomotives would come into service, ...  the savings would be very large - exceeding $2,OOO,OOO per year.

New substations in the area of the "gap" are supplied by taps from existing utility transmission lines. Additional capacity is made available on the Coast Division and the Rocky Mountain Division by installing five new rectifier substations -to replace substations with motor generator sets ... These displaced motor generator sets are proposed to be moved to 6 substations where increased power appears to be required.

Losses from the utility delivery point to the locomotive were considered. Presently these losses approximate 30% on the Rocky Mountain Division and 25% on the Coast Division. Losses will be reduced substantially by this project.

The reductions are brought about in three ways:1. Increasing feeder capacity by doubling feeder cross section. 2. Increasing maximum voltage to 3750 volts from 3300 volts. 3. By the use of silicon diode rectifiers with losses of less than 2% as compared with motor-generator set losses of 8%.

AVERY - OTHELLO EXTENSION

New Catenary

Poles, etc.   $1,680,000

Trolley and Feeders $3,120,000

Labor $3,000,000

Trolley Total  $7,800,000

New Substations

Roxboro, Ralston, Revere, Malden, Tekoa, Plummer, St. Maries: 3750 VDC Rectifier substations at 4400 kw.

AC Substation Facilities [By Power Companies]

DC Substation Facilities $1,778,000

Substation Total $2,800,000

Total Avery - Othello  $9,578,000

A Rectifier substation at Black River will replace the MG substation at Tacoma. Puget Sound Power & Light will pay to build the transmission line extension to serve Black River if it can also use the line.

The largest portion of the total outlay for the electrification of the Milwaukee main line from Seattle-Tacoma to Harlowton will be for locomotives. Out of a total estimated investment of $32,000,000 by Milwaukee, $20,250,000 would be for locomotives and $11,750,000 for trolley, feeders and substations.

Fuel cost inflation should be greater for diesel fuel than for electric power because the utilities have large deposits of low cost coal available for development and oil supplies are increasingly  more remote and more costly.

Sometimes these engineers really hit the nail on the head.

[MichaelSol]

... but copper was high at the point, just as it is today, so they were all for scapping.

No, either way, the copper was coming out of the system, and had been incrementally for years. All of the upgrade proposals utilized copper salvage revenue as a partial contribution to the upgrade costs.

"Following the pattern established by the Railroad Company's electrical engineers, it is proposed to replace all copper feeders in the Coast and Rocky Mountain Divisions with aluminum feeders of approximately the same weight, thus doubling the equivalent copper cross section of all feeders replaced; This change will introduce a new size of wire to the Railroad; namely, 2250 MCM Al. "Sagebrush". This is equivalent to 1415 MCM copper."

 

[MichaelSol]

Milwauke Road, especially as a transcontinental railroad was always an iffy proposition.  But excellent management could have made it go.  But it did not have it.

The West end was where the growth was.

Between, 1960 and 1970, the annual growth rates (MGTM) were as follows:

Coast Division: 4.2%

Gap: 6%

Rocky Mountain: 5.4%

The ten year total showed a 50% total tonnage growth. Then, the BN merger conditions kicked in, and the growth rate grew to an 8% average annual increase, 1971-1976, another 50% increase in total tonnage.

Not many railroads in that era were showing consistent, sustained growth like that, and certainly not on Milwaukee's Lines East, which showed declining tonnages throughout those periods.

This was a problem for the Trustee and his minions, and resulted in one of the most dishonest portrayals, under oath, of a set of facts I have ever seen.

Inevitably, testimony on the subject of Milwaukee traffic and the PCE, offered to the Bankruptcy Court, the ICC, you name it, would start off with a description of the relatively light traffic on the PCE historically, and then jump into the BN Merger Conditions and what they were "supposed" to achieve. The next paragraph, in any statement or testimony, would invariably then remark something to the effect that "unfortunately, traffic on the Milwaukee continued to decline."

Any uninformed reader or listener, since the testimony was offered in the context of abandonment of the PCE, would reasonably conclude that the testimony was saying that "traffic on the Milwaukee PCE continued to decline."

But that was utterly false. Traffic had been growing all during the 1960s on the PCE and the rate of growth accelerated significantly during the 1970s as a result of the BN Merger Conditions. Milwaukee traffic on Lines East was failing and failing faster than the PCE could grow new traffic.

But, in the context of the presentations, the ICC, Congress, and the Bankruptcy Court heard carefully prepared testimony designed to leave the impression, the utterly false impression without actually saying it and committing perjury, that the PCE was losing traffic.

It was a remarkable exposition of how two truths could be used together to tell a lie. And how the weakness of Lines East was substituted for the strong growth on Lines West.

Now, why? Well, it doesn't make much sense, does it, if the assumption was that, at each turn, everyone was acting sincerely and diligently on behalf of the best interests of the railroad company?

When the big, expensive consulting study came back showing that the only realistic long-term viable railroad had to include the PCE in some configuration or another, the Trustee blew up at the staff that had advocated the shutdown, and quit. He may have been asking the same question at that point.

 

 

[doghouse]

 

Mike, when you refer to wire size, what does 2250 MCM or 1415 MCM mean?  Is there a difference between Al and Cu wire sizes?

[Dakguy201]

CPRguy, thanks for the link to the Todd James article on the final years of the Milwaukee.  I have always been puzzled regarding what happened; and although he obviously has some strongly held opinions, it is the most comprehensive explanation I have seen.

I printed it out and need to study it awhile.  However, just who is/was Todd James?  I tried Googling him and came up dry.  In deciding how much weight should be given to some of his statements, it would be useful to have some background on him.

[MichaelSol]

 

Mike, when you refer to wire size, what does 2250 MCM or 1415 MCM mean?  Is there a difference between Al and Cu wire sizes?

"Circular mil" is a standard unit of measure used in electrical engineering to describe the cross-sectional area of a conductor, copper, aluminum, etc. It represents one-thousands of an inch. Milwaukee Road's original feeder cable was 500 MCM -- thousand circular mils -- copper, for instance. This had been supplemented on mountain grades in the 1950's with 750 MCM aluminum.

The "equivalency" referred to by the Power company engineers refers to the size of the aluminum conductor needed to give equivalent power flow compared to a given size copper conductor. Copper is a better conductor of electricity than aluminum and so a larger aluminum conductor is necessary to equal the copper wire.

 

[MichaelSol]

Dakguy201 wrote:

CPRguy, thanks for the link to the Todd James article on the final years of the Milwaukee.  I have always been puzzled regarding what happened; and although he obviously has some strongly held opinions, it is the most comprehensive explanation I have seen. I printed it out and need to study it awhile.  However, just who is/was Todd James?  I tried Googling him and came up dry.  In deciding how much weight should be given to some of his statements, it would be useful to have some background on him.

Todd Jones was an engineer on the Canadian Pacific, at Portage I believe. Pretty smart guy and as he talked to old Milwaukee engineers, he developed the perception of "hey, wait a minute" about the Milwaukee's demise. You will note that he credits myself and Dave Sprau at the end of the article, which was printed in two parts in CTC Board magazine. He wrote it during 1999, if I recall. He had a website he put together. http://www.trainweb.org/milwaukee/

I haven't heard from him for a number of years.

Todd spent quite a bit of time going over the recent history of the MILW with both Dave and I -- I from the standpoint of the Milwaukee; Dave from the standpoint of a now retired BN Dispatcher located at a key time at the key joint MILW/BN agency at Maple Valley, Washington. Dave was a lifelong NP/BN employee and a very knowledgeable railroader in the Pacific Northwest.

At Maple Valley, Dave could see daily the uptick in traffic in both directions; the Kent Auto Marshalling facility virtually eliminating the former GN auto traffic; the Chryslers and Fords in one direction, Toyotas in the other; thousands of carloads of wheat, lumber, the Southern Pacific traffic, the upsurge in COFC/TOFC from the Stacey Street intermodal facility, capturing 76% of Port of Seattle import/export traffic, 50% of its container traffic, 50% of Port of Tacoma, and $45 million at Port of Portland/Southern Pacific and the Portland subdivision, the addition of second sections daily of 261 and 262, and daily 265 and 266.

Regarding the BN Merger Gateway conditions, I asked Dave how it looked from BN's perspective on the PCE as a result of the Conditions and the Portland Entry. His response, "Milwaukee Road was having BN for lunch." He could see it out his window every day.

[billbtrain]

Michael,

 How long would the revamping of the old electrified sections and closing the gap between the two sections have taken and what would have been purchased for new power?

Have a good one.

Bill B 

[erikem]

Back in 1969, GE proposed buidling some C-C electrics with essentially the same continuous TE and horsepower as the Little Joes - which would have been great for fast freight. The motors were GE-750's as in the Joe's, but I suspect the introduction of Kapton insulation is what allowed for a higher continuous current rating for the motors.

Michael is right about the definition of cmils and the proposed aluminum feeders would have substantially improved power delivery to the trains. 

[Dakguy201]

But, in the context of the presentations, the ICC, Congress, and the Bankruptcy Court heard carefully prepared testimony designed to leave the impression, the utterly false impression without actually saying it and committing perjury, that the PCE was losing traffic.

(portion omitted) 

Now, why? Well, it doesn't make much sense, does it, if the assumption was that, at each turn, everyone was acting sincerely and diligently on behalf of the best interests of the railroad company?

When the big, expensive consulting study came back showing that the only realistic long-term viable railroad had to include the PCE in some configuration or another, the Trustee blew up at the staff that had advocated the shutdown, and quit. He may have been asking the same question at that point.

Without saying it outright you are hinting that the Milwaukee's management were doing their best to eliminate the company.  Further, the Bankruptcy Trustee became aware that was the case; and rather than terminate those responsible for such actions, he chose to end his involvement. 

Are we talking about a railroad with a deliberately destructive management?  It sure sounds like it.   One has to wonder about motivation to do something like that.  When attempting to explain a puzzle, sometimes it helps to ask who benefitted.  In this case that is obviously the only competitor in that territory.

There has to be a great story in here somewhere.

[mrmikel]

Roughly $200,000 total for the first fifteen years profit...for that the railroad is supposed to invest millions?  Milwaukee was not the UP with bottomless pockets.

The existing locomotives were falling apart. There were tracks full in the Tacoma yard.  It was not a done deal that the system would continue to be 3000 volts.  A higher voltage AC system was, as I recall, more prominent in the thinking of the engineers.  That is primarily because the substations could be eliminated and the power dropped off as needed by the power company, as well as the locomotive control technology is simpler using an AC system.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

But, in the context of the presentations, the ICC, Congress, and the Bankruptcy Court heard carefully prepared testimony designed to leave the impression, the utterly false impression without actually saying it and committing perjury, that the PCE was losing traffic.

(portion omitted) 

Now, why? Well, it doesn't make much sense, does it, if the assumption was that, at each turn, everyone was acting sincerely and diligently on behalf of the best interests of the railroad company?

When the big, expensive consulting study came back showing that the only realistic long-term viable railroad had to include the PCE in some configuration or another, the Trustee blew up at the staff that had advocated the shutdown, and quit. He may have been asking the same question at that point.

Without saying it outright you are hinting that the Milwaukee's management were doing their best to eliminate the company.  Further, the Bankruptcy Trustee became aware that was the case; and rather than terminate those responsible for such actions, he chose to end his involvement. 

Are we talking about a railroad with a deliberately destructive management?  It sure sounds like it.   One has to wonder about motivation to do something like that.  When attempting to explain a puzzle, sometimes it helps to ask who benefitted.  In this case that is obviously the only competitor in that territory.

There has to be a great story in here somewhere.

You may want to see the book, The Nation Pays Again: The Demise of the Milwaukee Road 1928-1986, by Thomas H. Ploss (deceased mid-90's), 165 pp., ISBN 0961378816 / 9780961378813, privately published 1986 (?).  Ploss was a Milwaukee Road staff attorney who wrote the book just after its demise.  I haven't read it (yet) - I prefer to look to the future - but probably will some day.  A quick search indicates that copies are for sale from $75 to $110, so I'll probably borrow it through Inter-Library Loan ("ILL") first. 

If you really want to know more - about the book, Ploss, and the Milwaukee Road's demise - use the Trains.com forum Search function below.  Insert "Nation Pays Again" (use the quotes so it searches for the whole phrase, not just the individual words), and you should get about 44 "hits".  Some are repetitive and mere mentions; others - mainly from back in the 2004 - 2006 time frame - are more substantial.

- Paul North.