Bad train pictures

[Nora]

Why is rail shaped the way it is (cross-section wise)? Why not just have it straight on the sides instead of having the skinny part? (I'll just be grateful if that makes sense to anyone, actually...I shouldn't even be awake at this hour, much less trying to communicate with humanity...)

--Nora

[Nora]

Why is rail shaped the way it is (cross-section wise)? Why not just have it straight on the sides instead of having the skinny part? (I'll just be grateful if that makes sense to anyone, actually...I shouldn't even be awake at this hour, much less trying to communicate with humanity...)

--Nora

[CShaveRR]

That one's easy, Nora...If you had rail in the shape of a rectangle, or trapezoid, you'd have a lot of added weight without much added strength. The ability to transport and handle these huge rails would not be as much of a problem now as it was in the past, but cost would still be a factor. Besides, without the flat part on the bottom, how would you spike it down?

[CShaveRR]

That one's easy, Nora...If you had rail in the shape of a rectangle, or trapezoid, you'd have a lot of added weight without much added strength. The ability to transport and handle these huge rails would not be as much of a problem now as it was in the past, but cost would still be a factor. Besides, without the flat part on the bottom, how would you spike it down?

[Anonymous]

Here's a stupid question. What would happen if you were hooping up orders and you missed them?

[Anonymous]

Here's a stupid question. What would happen if you were hooping up orders and you missed them?

[cherokee woman]

Another question: What is "hooping up orders"?

[cherokee woman]

Another question: What is "hooping up orders"?

[edblysard]

Hi Nora,

One of the main reasons deal with the fact that mechanical engineers want the maximum amount of strength from the minimum amount of material.
If you made rail square, or a triangle, the amount of steel would double or tripple per yard, manufacturing cost follows suit, as does transportation and installation.

The contact surface between rail head, (ball) and wheel is quite small, you could cover the area with a dime.

In cross section, the top of the rail is slightly rounded, and the wheels have a slight taper, they are bigger towards the flange side, and taper to a smaller dia. towards the outside.

This allows the contact area to be small, and allows the wheels to track, or follow the rail.

The wheel set is smaller between the flanges from wheel to wheel than the rails are set apart from rail to rail, to allow some sideways play and prevent binding in curves.

The railcar balances on the wheels, which balance on the rails, if the flanges were in constant contact with the rail, they would wear away in one trip.

The shape of the rail is designed to allow it to bend, if it was a thick solid shape from top to bottom, you would have to cast or fabricate each section of a curve, as it is now, you can bend the rail into the curve, then spike it to the ties, if it was any more "solid" it wouldnt bend or flex.

Keep in mind the top of the rail will wear away, so why add more material under the part that is wearing away if you dont have to?

The weight of the cars is transmitted to the ball, or crown of the rail, then through the tang of the body of the rail to the foot then the ties to the roadbed.

Any more material added to the sides wouldnt help in any respect, all the weight, for the most part, goes straight down, what we currently use handles the job of transferring the weight to the ground quite well.

And the way rail is made allows for quick, cheap production.

Hot bar stock is run throught rollers, which use many tons per square inch to roll, or shape the rail.

Because its shape allows for flexability, you can run as long a piece of rail as you want.

As for steel shapes, what we think of as heavy rail is really quite light, averages about 135 lbs per yard.

Making it thicker, square or triangle shaped as noted, would make it much heavier, easily upwards of 200 lbs per yard, and require even more heavy duty equipment to make, transport and install it.

The reason rail transportation is so efficent is due completly to the fact that friction between the steel wheels and steel rail is so small.

Again, the contact area between the wheel tread and the rail head is about the size of a dime.

In contrast, your most efficent automobile still has a contact area between the rubber tire and road surface about the size of a coffee cup sacuer.

Next time you see a Dash 9 roll by, think about this.
You just watched 440,000 lbs (220 tons) run by you, balancing all that weight, on 12 dimes.

Its already as efficent as it can get.

We can make it all bigger, heavier rail and more massive machines, but the basic wheel and rail shapes have reached to top end of the design curve.

Ed

[edblysard]

Hi Nora,

One of the main reasons deal with the fact that mechanical engineers want the maximum amount of strength from the minimum amount of material.
If you made rail square, or a triangle, the amount of steel would double or tripple per yard, manufacturing cost follows suit, as does transportation and installation.

The contact surface between rail head, (ball) and wheel is quite small, you could cover the area with a dime.

In cross section, the top of the rail is slightly rounded, and the wheels have a slight taper, they are bigger towards the flange side, and taper to a smaller dia. towards the outside.

This allows the contact area to be small, and allows the wheels to track, or follow the rail.

The wheel set is smaller between the flanges from wheel to wheel than the rails are set apart from rail to rail, to allow some sideways play and prevent binding in curves.

The railcar balances on the wheels, which balance on the rails, if the flanges were in constant contact with the rail, they would wear away in one trip.

The shape of the rail is designed to allow it to bend, if it was a thick solid shape from top to bottom, you would have to cast or fabricate each section of a curve, as it is now, you can bend the rail into the curve, then spike it to the ties, if it was any more "solid" it wouldnt bend or flex.

Keep in mind the top of the rail will wear away, so why add more material under the part that is wearing away if you dont have to?

The weight of the cars is transmitted to the ball, or crown of the rail, then through the tang of the body of the rail to the foot then the ties to the roadbed.

Any more material added to the sides wouldnt help in any respect, all the weight, for the most part, goes straight down, what we currently use handles the job of transferring the weight to the ground quite well.

And the way rail is made allows for quick, cheap production.

Hot bar stock is run throught rollers, which use many tons per square inch to roll, or shape the rail.

Because its shape allows for flexability, you can run as long a piece of rail as you want.

As for steel shapes, what we think of as heavy rail is really quite light, averages about 135 lbs per yard.

Making it thicker, square or triangle shaped as noted, would make it much heavier, easily upwards of 200 lbs per yard, and require even more heavy duty equipment to make, transport and install it.

The reason rail transportation is so efficent is due completly to the fact that friction between the steel wheels and steel rail is so small.

Again, the contact area between the wheel tread and the rail head is about the size of a dime.

In contrast, your most efficent automobile still has a contact area between the rubber tire and road surface about the size of a coffee cup sacuer.

Next time you see a Dash 9 roll by, think about this.
You just watched 440,000 lbs (220 tons) run by you, balancing all that weight, on 12 dimes.

Its already as efficent as it can get.

We can make it all bigger, heavier rail and more massive machines, but the basic wheel and rail shapes have reached to top end of the design curve.

Ed

[JoeKoh]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cherokee woman

Another question: What is "hooping up orders"?

Cw
hooping up orders- Is where a trainmaster or dispathcer would literally put the orders for the trains on a stick with a circle on the end and lift it up to the engineers or conductors window .some stations had poles along the line where the conductor or engineer could grab the orders.
hope this helps.[8D]
stay safe
Joe

[JoeKoh]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cherokee woman

Another question: What is "hooping up orders"?

Cw
hooping up orders- Is where a trainmaster or dispathcer would literally put the orders for the trains on a stick with a circle on the end and lift it up to the engineers or conductors window .some stations had poles along the line where the conductor or engineer could grab the orders.
hope this helps.[8D]
stay safe
Joe

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by JoeKoh

QUOTE: Originally posted by cherokee woman

Another question: What is "hooping up orders"?

Cw
hooping up orders- Is where a trainmaster or dispathcer would literally put the orders for the trains on a stick with a circle on the end and lift it up to the engineers or conductors window .some stations had poles along the line where the conductor or engineer could grab the orders.
hope this helps.[8D]
stay safe
Joe

And in the days of the caboose, a copy of the orders would also be hooped up there. You can sometimes see train order holders in old pictures of stations. There would be two "stations" on the pole, one for the engine (the upper), one for the caboose.

As for what happens if they miss the pickup - Stop and Back Up...

I have a picture someplace from Rantoul IL. If I can find it, I'll scan and post it.

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by JoeKoh

QUOTE: Originally posted by cherokee woman

Another question: What is "hooping up orders"?

Cw
hooping up orders- Is where a trainmaster or dispathcer would literally put the orders for the trains on a stick with a circle on the end and lift it up to the engineers or conductors window .some stations had poles along the line where the conductor or engineer could grab the orders.
hope this helps.[8D]
stay safe
Joe

And in the days of the caboose, a copy of the orders would also be hooped up there. You can sometimes see train order holders in old pictures of stations. There would be two "stations" on the pole, one for the engine (the upper), one for the caboose.

As for what happens if they miss the pickup - Stop and Back Up...

I have a picture someplace from Rantoul IL. If I can find it, I'll scan and post it.

[Anonymous]

OK, I have a dumb question [:(] [?]

ON the way home from church today I saw a UP train (led by UP 6608) having a bunch of different cars being pulled. One of the cars was labeled something like this, "Caution Before Unloading Attach Ground" or "Ground Cables", or "Grounding Cables". Well anyway I am sure you get the picture. So what was this car hauling? A grounding cable would be to stabilize the electrical potential between the car and the ground and other objects. (This is the reason you should always fill your lawnmower gas can while it is physically setting on the payment at the gas station, to avoid a static discharge and possible explosion.) I have never seen that stencilled on a railroad car before (like I always watch for it [}:)] [;)] ) I really don't remember the type of car because I was trying to read the label, but I don't believe it was a boxcar. Would a grain car need grounding before unloading because of the grain dust? OK guys, jump on this one and educate me ( and everyone else who might want to know). lol

[Anonymous]

OK, I have a dumb question [:(] [?]

ON the way home from church today I saw a UP train (led by UP 6608) having a bunch of different cars being pulled. One of the cars was labeled something like this, "Caution Before Unloading Attach Ground" or "Ground Cables", or "Grounding Cables". Well anyway I am sure you get the picture. So what was this car hauling? A grounding cable would be to stabilize the electrical potential between the car and the ground and other objects. (This is the reason you should always fill your lawnmower gas can while it is physically setting on the payment at the gas station, to avoid a static discharge and possible explosion.) I have never seen that stencilled on a railroad car before (like I always watch for it [}:)] [;)] ) I really don't remember the type of car because I was trying to read the label, but I don't believe it was a boxcar. Would a grain car need grounding before unloading because of the grain dust? OK guys, jump on this one and educate me ( and everyone else who might want to know). lol

[edblysard]

Hi Jim,
You got it, to prevent a static charge from building up in the car.
Some hoppers full of plastic can built up a very high charge, and knock the snot out of you if you discharge it through you!
Tanks full of LPG, and a lot of gases need to be grounded while loading and unloading.
Most grain cars dont need grounding, the tops are opened, and enough venting happens to prevent dust buildup.

Ed

[edblysard]

Hi Jim,
You got it, to prevent a static charge from building up in the car.
Some hoppers full of plastic can built up a very high charge, and knock the snot out of you if you discharge it through you!
Tanks full of LPG, and a lot of gases need to be grounded while loading and unloading.
Most grain cars dont need grounding, the tops are opened, and enough venting happens to prevent dust buildup.

Ed

[Nora]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CShaveRR

That one's easy, Nora...If you had rail in the shape of a rectangle, or trapezoid, you'd have a lot of added weight without much added strength. The ability to transport and handle these huge rails would not be as much of a problem now as it was in the past, but cost would still be a factor. Besides, without the flat part on the bottom, how would you spike it down?

That makes sense. I figured there had to be a reason; thanks for explaining. Although I did understand why there had to be a flat part on the bottom...my question wasn't intended to be quite THAT stupid! [:I]

--Nora

[Nora]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CShaveRR

That one's easy, Nora...If you had rail in the shape of a rectangle, or trapezoid, you'd have a lot of added weight without much added strength. The ability to transport and handle these huge rails would not be as much of a problem now as it was in the past, but cost would still be a factor. Besides, without the flat part on the bottom, how would you spike it down?

That makes sense. I figured there had to be a reason; thanks for explaining. Although I did understand why there had to be a flat part on the bottom...my question wasn't intended to be quite THAT stupid! [:I]

--Nora

[Anonymous]

Not a dumb question at all. It should console you that the shape of the rail was not worked out for some time after railroads were invented, and all sorts of different shapes were considered and tried, some very unsuccessfully.

The T-shaped rail works brilliantly in almost all respects, which is why it has persisted for about 150 years. One of the most important reasons it works, cited above, is that economically uses steel for the performance it provides. Rail is extremely expensive: mile after mile, it really adds up. In the 19th century when railroads were built, rail was the single largest cost, and railroads that built during periods of high iron and steel prices often went bankrupt. So engineers have worked very hard for over a hundred years designing sections that are as stingy of steel as possible. Some of the sections they've designed haven't turned out so well: the NYC used a section in the 1960s that got a very bad reputation because it turned out prone to breakage.

Rail is made of very high-quality steel, which is expensive. More importantly, the manufacturing techniques needed to achieve predictable performance in the field are extraordinarily difficult. A broken rail can easily cause a $2 million derailment, and a steel-maker who starts producing a rail with a proclivity toward breakage will be bankrupt in short order. Very few steel manufacturers have the technical skills or the money to be in the rail business.

[Anonymous]

Not a dumb question at all. It should console you that the shape of the rail was not worked out for some time after railroads were invented, and all sorts of different shapes were considered and tried, some very unsuccessfully.

The T-shaped rail works brilliantly in almost all respects, which is why it has persisted for about 150 years. One of the most important reasons it works, cited above, is that economically uses steel for the performance it provides. Rail is extremely expensive: mile after mile, it really adds up. In the 19th century when railroads were built, rail was the single largest cost, and railroads that built during periods of high iron and steel prices often went bankrupt. So engineers have worked very hard for over a hundred years designing sections that are as stingy of steel as possible. Some of the sections they've designed haven't turned out so well: the NYC used a section in the 1960s that got a very bad reputation because it turned out prone to breakage.

Rail is made of very high-quality steel, which is expensive. More importantly, the manufacturing techniques needed to achieve predictable performance in the field are extraordinarily difficult. A broken rail can easily cause a $2 million derailment, and a steel-maker who starts producing a rail with a proclivity toward breakage will be bankrupt in short order. Very few steel manufacturers have the technical skills or the money to be in the rail business.

[dehusman]

Train order operators did most of the "hooping". On a lot of roads it wasn't a "hoop" it was a forked stick, shaped like a big "Y". The bottom was a 3/4 in dowell about 4 ft long and the two forks were 1/2 or 3/8" dowell about 2 ft long that seperated at about a 45 deg angle. The orders would be rolled and tied with a long loop of string. The string would be hooked on a small hook on the each fork and then held under a clip at the base of the fork, with the orders between the ends of the fork. The operator would hold the end of the "hoop" and touch the tip of a fork to the nearest rail (that would mean the operator was far enough away not to be hit by the train but close enough for the crew to reach the orders) and then hold the "hoop" up in the air were the engineer could reach it. The engineer would stick his arm through the open fork and the string would catch on his arm, pulling the string and orders loose from the hoop. The operator would take the other hoop and repeat the process with the conductor on the caboose.

Believe me a train looks a lot bigger and faster when its going by at an arms length away.

Dave H.

[dehusman]

Train order operators did most of the "hooping". On a lot of roads it wasn't a "hoop" it was a forked stick, shaped like a big "Y". The bottom was a 3/4 in dowell about 4 ft long and the two forks were 1/2 or 3/8" dowell about 2 ft long that seperated at about a 45 deg angle. The orders would be rolled and tied with a long loop of string. The string would be hooked on a small hook on the each fork and then held under a clip at the base of the fork, with the orders between the ends of the fork. The operator would hold the end of the "hoop" and touch the tip of a fork to the nearest rail (that would mean the operator was far enough away not to be hit by the train but close enough for the crew to reach the orders) and then hold the "hoop" up in the air were the engineer could reach it. The engineer would stick his arm through the open fork and the string would catch on his arm, pulling the string and orders loose from the hoop. The operator would take the other hoop and repeat the process with the conductor on the caboose.

Believe me a train looks a lot bigger and faster when its going by at an arms length away.

Dave H.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dehusman

Believe me a train looks a lot bigger and faster when its going by at an arms length away.

Dave H.

Dave [:)]

I bet it does. [;)]

But at least one would learn firsthand that the old _____ fable (intentionally left blank lol) wasn't true. [}:)] [;)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dehusman

Believe me a train looks a lot bigger and faster when its going by at an arms length away.

Dave H.

Dave [:)]

I bet it does. [;)]

But at least one would learn firsthand that the old _____ fable (intentionally left blank lol) wasn't true. [}:)] [;)]

[CShaveRR]

Believe me, sometimes that "hole" through you put your arm to snag the train orders seemed a lot smaller than it really was, too!

I never missed, though, and our speed was sometimes up around 50 when we went by Tower KO.

If you did miss, you would be operating without a clearance, which would be the equivalent of overstepping your DTC or TWC authority today. You'd better stop and get the orders!

One time, on a Weber transfer run, the hind end missed the orders at Mayfair. All we heard on the radio was one word: "Stop", followed several minutes later by "Go". Everybody knew what happened, anyway...

[CShaveRR]

Believe me, sometimes that "hole" through you put your arm to snag the train orders seemed a lot smaller than it really was, too!

I never missed, though, and our speed was sometimes up around 50 when we went by Tower KO.

If you did miss, you would be operating without a clearance, which would be the equivalent of overstepping your DTC or TWC authority today. You'd better stop and get the orders!

One time, on a Weber transfer run, the hind end missed the orders at Mayfair. All we heard on the radio was one word: "Stop", followed several minutes later by "Go". Everybody knew what happened, anyway...

[mudchicken]

Nora:

Mark & Ed do an excellent job on explaining most of the how and whys of the T-rail shape. Let's add a little to the answer:
(1) Ed talks about adding the mechanical engineer to reason why to the shape of the rail. You need also to remember the metalurgist/metalurgical engineers whose composition of the rail material could have direct affects on the shape of the rail.

(2) For every rail section, there are subtle changes to the rail section (outline) that have created 40+ different cross-sections for the SAME weight of rail (On the rail, the raised letters on the web tell you many things about where the rail came from and when it was rolled, its section and its variant design of the rail section, the number stamped into the rail on the other side is the "heat number" which is a pedigree of the rail and where it came out of the ingot and billet in the steel mill)

110# rail had troubles with the head of the rail "wobbling" and had multiple design changes over the life of the rail. The metalurgists and mechanical engineers had many headaches with the T-section for this rail.

Crane rail has a lip added to it which you frequently see in use in street trackage (built-in flangeway comes in handy) and then there is "head free" rail which has the ball of rail reduced in the lower corners of the head/ ball of the rail....

(3) back where Ed talked about the dime sized contact patch, ...the next time you see a rail grinder - think of that operation as the grinder trying to create the optimum contact patch and rail profile for the wheel to run on. The science of rail grinding is also something of an art and is often a loud object of discussion between railroad maintenance engineers on how this is to be done to obtain the best contact patch [and how to extend the life of that rail section]...this gets to be a dicey situation as railcar wheels on a train are hardly homogenous/ same and what is OK to one railroad is grounds for removal on another (people don't always read wheel gauges the same way)

[mudchicken]

Nora:

Mark & Ed do an excellent job on explaining most of the how and whys of the T-rail shape. Let's add a little to the answer:
(1) Ed talks about adding the mechanical engineer to reason why to the shape of the rail. You need also to remember the metalurgist/metalurgical engineers whose composition of the rail material could have direct affects on the shape of the rail.

(2) For every rail section, there are subtle changes to the rail section (outline) that have created 40+ different cross-sections for the SAME weight of rail (On the rail, the raised letters on the web tell you many things about where the rail came from and when it was rolled, its section and its variant design of the rail section, the number stamped into the rail on the other side is the "heat number" which is a pedigree of the rail and where it came out of the ingot and billet in the steel mill)

110# rail had troubles with the head of the rail "wobbling" and had multiple design changes over the life of the rail. The metalurgists and mechanical engineers had many headaches with the T-section for this rail.

Crane rail has a lip added to it which you frequently see in use in street trackage (built-in flangeway comes in handy) and then there is "head free" rail which has the ball of rail reduced in the lower corners of the head/ ball of the rail....

(3) back where Ed talked about the dime sized contact patch, ...the next time you see a rail grinder - think of that operation as the grinder trying to create the optimum contact patch and rail profile for the wheel to run on. The science of rail grinding is also something of an art and is often a loud object of discussion between railroad maintenance engineers on how this is to be done to obtain the best contact patch [and how to extend the life of that rail section]...this gets to be a dicey situation as railcar wheels on a train are hardly homogenous/ same and what is OK to one railroad is grounds for removal on another (people don't always read wheel gauges the same way)