Bad train pictures

[cpbloom]

Thanks to all for the answers on engine idling.

[cpbloom]

Thanks to all for the answers on engine idling.

[hogger42]

As far as moving the horns goes:

When we first got the Oakway motors (9000-9099) on the Joint Line, the horns
were right up front on the cab roof. Talk about LOUD!!!! They were deafening.
They're still loud mounted toward the rear but not as bad.

[hogger42]

As far as moving the horns goes:

When we first got the Oakway motors (9000-9099) on the Joint Line, the horns
were right up front on the cab roof. Talk about LOUD!!!! They were deafening.
They're still loud mounted toward the rear but not as bad.

[Anonymous]

THis Is a dummer Question was the Orange Blossom Special a Train? I'm sure we all know the song

DOGGY
GO CUBS

[Anonymous]

THis Is a dummer Question was the Orange Blossom Special a Train? I'm sure we all know the song

DOGGY
GO CUBS

[Modelcar]

....Yes, understand the modular design part of it...but why can't they design the connections and parts that are employed to keep integrity of the cooling system....so that is what they do...Hence, then one could employ a closed cooling system...One that could have antifreeze installed and not one that has to be drained when freezing is a threat.

[Modelcar]

....Yes, understand the modular design part of it...but why can't they design the connections and parts that are employed to keep integrity of the cooling system....so that is what they do...Hence, then one could employ a closed cooling system...One that could have antifreeze installed and not one that has to be drained when freezing is a threat.

[edblysard]

This may add to the understanding, or the confusion.

In your automobile, gas or diesel, if a cylinder goes, you pull the motor, strip it, take to a machine shop, have them do their thing, or buy a short block and bolt your parts on, and reinstall it in your car or truck.

Blow a cylinder is a SD40, and the shop pulls that liner, and rebuilds that cylinder only.

The ability to repair one that one cylinder, and only that one, has to exsist, from a cost perspective.

Replacing your 350 is cheap, compared to whats in a SD40.

Your car/truck is designed for the entire motor to be replaced as a single unit, and designed for the factory to install quickly, with no real thought to after market repair, even tune ups, after all, 100,000 miles is the expected use life on a car, and the idea that you, the owner, will repair it is no longer part of the concept, your expected to trade it in or sell it before you need to perform a major repair.

But 1000000 miles on a locomotive is normal, and with a piece of equipment that is designed with that long a service life, each and every part that can break or fail must be easily changable, without having to remove the entire engine.

So you cant cast it all as one piece, like a automobile engine.

Experience has taught the designers that, on a locomotive, you will bang a hole in a piston, burn a rod bearing, or spin a crankshaft bearing, lose a injector, so forth, and do so on a fairly predictable schedule.

You have to be able change each of these parts without removing the engine, and you have to be able to do so quickly, a locomotive down in the shop is not earning it's keep, and costing you money every day its not pulling a train.

Modular construction isnt new, thats what the big deal was about in EMD's -2 upgrade.
Instead of a electrictian chaseing down a short in a complex wireing harness, he pluged in his portable computer, and it diagonised which module in the electrical system failed.

The tech just pulls that module, and plugs in a new one, problem fixed in minutes, not hours.

They were building their diesel engines that way long before the transistor revolution happened, they just applied the same concept to the electrical system.

And last, the size alone of the engines dictates that you build it in modules, and design the repair parts or modules to be easy to install.

Not to many railroads can afford to keep a backshop at many terminals, nor afford the skilled labor to staff one.

You can pull the head off your passenger car with basic hand tools, and throw the head in the trunk of you wifes car, run down to Bobs machine shop, have Bob mill it down, and it's back on the car tomorrow.

What do you with the head of your SD40, or Dash 9?

You ship it to a heavy machine shop, or your major rebuilder, and bolt on the spare you have on hand, because you cant afford to wait to get the old one back, you have to have that locomotive running.

Modular construction is the only way to accompli***hat.

Ed

[edblysard]

This may add to the understanding, or the confusion.

In your automobile, gas or diesel, if a cylinder goes, you pull the motor, strip it, take to a machine shop, have them do their thing, or buy a short block and bolt your parts on, and reinstall it in your car or truck.

Blow a cylinder is a SD40, and the shop pulls that liner, and rebuilds that cylinder only.

The ability to repair one that one cylinder, and only that one, has to exsist, from a cost perspective.

Replacing your 350 is cheap, compared to whats in a SD40.

Your car/truck is designed for the entire motor to be replaced as a single unit, and designed for the factory to install quickly, with no real thought to after market repair, even tune ups, after all, 100,000 miles is the expected use life on a car, and the idea that you, the owner, will repair it is no longer part of the concept, your expected to trade it in or sell it before you need to perform a major repair.

But 1000000 miles on a locomotive is normal, and with a piece of equipment that is designed with that long a service life, each and every part that can break or fail must be easily changable, without having to remove the entire engine.

So you cant cast it all as one piece, like a automobile engine.

Experience has taught the designers that, on a locomotive, you will bang a hole in a piston, burn a rod bearing, or spin a crankshaft bearing, lose a injector, so forth, and do so on a fairly predictable schedule.

You have to be able change each of these parts without removing the engine, and you have to be able to do so quickly, a locomotive down in the shop is not earning it's keep, and costing you money every day its not pulling a train.

Modular construction isnt new, thats what the big deal was about in EMD's -2 upgrade.
Instead of a electrictian chaseing down a short in a complex wireing harness, he pluged in his portable computer, and it diagonised which module in the electrical system failed.

The tech just pulls that module, and plugs in a new one, problem fixed in minutes, not hours.

They were building their diesel engines that way long before the transistor revolution happened, they just applied the same concept to the electrical system.

And last, the size alone of the engines dictates that you build it in modules, and design the repair parts or modules to be easy to install.

Not to many railroads can afford to keep a backshop at many terminals, nor afford the skilled labor to staff one.

You can pull the head off your passenger car with basic hand tools, and throw the head in the trunk of you wifes car, run down to Bobs machine shop, have Bob mill it down, and it's back on the car tomorrow.

What do you with the head of your SD40, or Dash 9?

You ship it to a heavy machine shop, or your major rebuilder, and bolt on the spare you have on hand, because you cant afford to wait to get the old one back, you have to have that locomotive running.

Modular construction is the only way to accompli***hat.

Ed

[Modelcar]

Ed....Those solid state controls now available on modern engines make a bunch of sense...At least the engine does get a chance to shut down when it is inactive for a predetermined time and is restarted before, for example...the battery gets too low to do the starting. That system sure sounds like it makes sense to at leaat save some of the now expensive fuel.

[Modelcar]

Ed....Those solid state controls now available on modern engines make a bunch of sense...At least the engine does get a chance to shut down when it is inactive for a predetermined time and is restarted before, for example...the battery gets too low to do the starting. That system sure sounds like it makes sense to at leaat save some of the now expensive fuel.

[JoeKoh]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Both EMD and GE have auto start/stop systems on their newer locomotives.
Said system checks coolant temp, battery charge and air pressure in the main.
Most have a time setting, if the locomotive is isloated, and no control surface is moved,(throttle, train or independent brake), the locomotive's computer shuts the prime mover off.
If the coolant drops below a certain temp, battery charge drops, or air pressure drops, the computer restarts the prime mover, to re charge/ heat up these systems.

Almost every BNSF Dash 9 has htis, and quite a few EMD, back to the SD40-2 retrofits.

Our MK1500Ds, and the "New GP15 and 20s" have this feature.

Before the advent of this system, the odds of shutting down a locomotive for the night, and having it re start easily the next morning were not all that great.
Battries run down, and jump starting a SD40-2 aint that easy, your Chevy aint up to that, you need another locomotive and a really long set of jumper cables to do it.

A dead locomotive is a expensive track bumper, and if its dead in front of the rest of your locomotives, well...

Add to that the then cheap price of diesel, the chance of engine damage, and the hassle of starting a cold, older locomotives, leaving them running was a good choice, back then.

Todays solid state equipment, and the cost of diesel, the emissions laws, and better engineered equipment, shuting a locomotive down when not in use make sense, from a economic and mechanical point of view.

Ed

Ed
apparently CSX isnt listening.they let a train run for about 6 hrs today waitng for a new crew.
stay safe
Joe

[JoeKoh]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Both EMD and GE have auto start/stop systems on their newer locomotives.
Said system checks coolant temp, battery charge and air pressure in the main.
Most have a time setting, if the locomotive is isloated, and no control surface is moved,(throttle, train or independent brake), the locomotive's computer shuts the prime mover off.
If the coolant drops below a certain temp, battery charge drops, or air pressure drops, the computer restarts the prime mover, to re charge/ heat up these systems.

Almost every BNSF Dash 9 has htis, and quite a few EMD, back to the SD40-2 retrofits.

Our MK1500Ds, and the "New GP15 and 20s" have this feature.

Before the advent of this system, the odds of shutting down a locomotive for the night, and having it re start easily the next morning were not all that great.
Battries run down, and jump starting a SD40-2 aint that easy, your Chevy aint up to that, you need another locomotive and a really long set of jumper cables to do it.

A dead locomotive is a expensive track bumper, and if its dead in front of the rest of your locomotives, well...

Add to that the then cheap price of diesel, the chance of engine damage, and the hassle of starting a cold, older locomotives, leaving them running was a good choice, back then.

Todays solid state equipment, and the cost of diesel, the emissions laws, and better engineered equipment, shuting a locomotive down when not in use make sense, from a economic and mechanical point of view.

Ed

Ed
apparently CSX isnt listening.they let a train run for about 6 hrs today waitng for a new crew.
stay safe
Joe

[Modelcar]

....Peter as you describe the flexibility between parts in the locomotive engine....and we're assuming that is the accepted method of constructing these engines over the years....It seems the "leaks" are an accepted action of these assembled parts....It just seems odd there is not a way to install the many parts together that would allow an engine's cooling circuits to have integrity. Many automotive engines have aluminum blocks and contain cast iron cylinder liners...and some cast iron heads along with the aluminum blocks...still maintaining integrity of the cooling system circuits in the engine. I know it is a fact of what several posts are saying....That is, living with the built in "leaks" of the railroad engine...I'm simply wondering why that can't be overcome in design and elimiinate the draining of the cooling system, and or the constant idling.

[Modelcar]

....Peter as you describe the flexibility between parts in the locomotive engine....and we're assuming that is the accepted method of constructing these engines over the years....It seems the "leaks" are an accepted action of these assembled parts....It just seems odd there is not a way to install the many parts together that would allow an engine's cooling circuits to have integrity. Many automotive engines have aluminum blocks and contain cast iron cylinder liners...and some cast iron heads along with the aluminum blocks...still maintaining integrity of the cooling system circuits in the engine. I know it is a fact of what several posts are saying....That is, living with the built in "leaks" of the railroad engine...I'm simply wondering why that can't be overcome in design and elimiinate the draining of the cooling system, and or the constant idling.

[edblysard]

Both EMD and GE have auto start/stop systems on their newer locomotives.
Said system checks coolant temp, battery charge and air pressure in the main.
Most have a time setting, if the locomotive is isloated, and no control surface is moved,(throttle, train or independent brake), the locomotive's computer shuts the prime mover off.
If the coolant drops below a certain temp, battery charge drops, or air pressure drops, the computer restarts the prime mover, to re charge/ heat up these systems.

Almost every BNSF Dash 9 has htis, and quite a few EMD, back to the SD40-2 retrofits.

Our MK1500Ds, and the "New GP15 and 20s" have this feature.

Before the advent of this system, the odds of shutting down a locomotive for the night, and having it re start easily the next morning were not all that great.
Battries run down, and jump starting a SD40-2 aint that easy, your Chevy aint up to that, you need another locomotive and a really long set of jumper cables to do it.

A dead locomotive is a expensive track bumper, and if its dead in front of the rest of your locomotives, well...

Add to that the then cheap price of diesel, the chance of engine damage, and the hassle of starting a cold, older locomotives, leaving them running was a good choice, back then.

Todays solid state equipment, and the cost of diesel, the emissions laws, and better engineered equipment, shuting a locomotive down when not in use make sense, from a economic and mechanical point of view.

Ed

[edblysard]

Both EMD and GE have auto start/stop systems on their newer locomotives.
Said system checks coolant temp, battery charge and air pressure in the main.
Most have a time setting, if the locomotive is isloated, and no control surface is moved,(throttle, train or independent brake), the locomotive's computer shuts the prime mover off.
If the coolant drops below a certain temp, battery charge drops, or air pressure drops, the computer restarts the prime mover, to re charge/ heat up these systems.

Almost every BNSF Dash 9 has htis, and quite a few EMD, back to the SD40-2 retrofits.

Our MK1500Ds, and the "New GP15 and 20s" have this feature.

Before the advent of this system, the odds of shutting down a locomotive for the night, and having it re start easily the next morning were not all that great.
Battries run down, and jump starting a SD40-2 aint that easy, your Chevy aint up to that, you need another locomotive and a really long set of jumper cables to do it.

A dead locomotive is a expensive track bumper, and if its dead in front of the rest of your locomotives, well...

Add to that the then cheap price of diesel, the chance of engine damage, and the hassle of starting a cold, older locomotives, leaving them running was a good choice, back then.

Todays solid state equipment, and the cost of diesel, the emissions laws, and better engineered equipment, shuting a locomotive down when not in use make sense, from a economic and mechanical point of view.

Ed

[M636C]

Modelcar,

Most truck engines, as I understand it, are cast blocks with cast in water jackets, and the block expands and contracts as a single unit. The EMD engine is a structure made up of castings and rolled sections welded together, with water passages and jackets confined to specific areas, with flexible connections between the cylinder liners and the block itself for the water/coolant. Differential heating and cooling causes stress in the structure, particularly in the welds. This can result in cracks, requiring welding, and in serious cases stress relief by heating the entire structure, followed by remachining to get proper alignment.

I'd like to know how much of the 3600 hours/year is "avoidable", the loco just sitting in a yard awaiting assignment, and how much is "unavoidable", incurred with a crew aboard, coupled to a train, checking for air leaks, or waiting for a crossing on single track, when the duration is short but of unknown duration, like an automobile waiting at lights or a railroad crossing.

Peter

[M636C]

Modelcar,

Most truck engines, as I understand it, are cast blocks with cast in water jackets, and the block expands and contracts as a single unit. The EMD engine is a structure made up of castings and rolled sections welded together, with water passages and jackets confined to specific areas, with flexible connections between the cylinder liners and the block itself for the water/coolant. Differential heating and cooling causes stress in the structure, particularly in the welds. This can result in cracks, requiring welding, and in serious cases stress relief by heating the entire structure, followed by remachining to get proper alignment.

I'd like to know how much of the 3600 hours/year is "avoidable", the loco just sitting in a yard awaiting assignment, and how much is "unavoidable", incurred with a crew aboard, coupled to a train, checking for air leaks, or waiting for a crossing on single track, when the duration is short but of unknown duration, like an automobile waiting at lights or a railroad crossing.

Peter

[Modelcar]

What is the big issue that coolant can't be contained in a diesel engine of railroad engine size....? I understand large truck engines aren't nearly as big but they do have contained cooling systems that contain antifreeze....3600 hrs. per year idling totals up engine usage and fuel consumption pretty rapidly and today's fuel costs add quickly. But back to my original thought...Why can't these engines coolant be sealed in the system as well as other internal compustion engine systems...?

[Modelcar]

What is the big issue that coolant can't be contained in a diesel engine of railroad engine size....? I understand large truck engines aren't nearly as big but they do have contained cooling systems that contain antifreeze....3600 hrs. per year idling totals up engine usage and fuel consumption pretty rapidly and today's fuel costs add quickly. But back to my original thought...Why can't these engines coolant be sealed in the system as well as other internal compustion engine systems...?

[M636C]

cpbloom,

There are two points to your question. Yes fuel is costly, but EMD in particular have introduced a low speed idle, which cuts idle fuel consumption by about 30%. What is the alternative? If the engine is shut down, it cools down. This causes stresses in the structure of the engine, and in cold weather, the coolant might freeze. Some locomotives have a computer system that checks the temperature and restarts the engine and runs it for as long as required to heat it up for an extended shut down. Otherwise heaters can be fitted to maintain the engine temperature.

EMD engines are at most risk, because they have air inlet ports part way down the cylinder, and there is always the risk that coolant might leak through these ports into the cylinder. This is only a problem if the piston is below the inlet port, because it is possible that on starting, the water will be trapped above the piston on starting, and will (being effectively incompressible) breal the head from the cylinder liner. The risk of this happening has been greatly reduced since the change to water jackets attached to the liners, which occured with the 567C engine in the mid 1950s, but there is still a real risk, and EMD locomotives still have a very slow crank speed on first restarting, to help any water drain before it can be trapped.

Locomotives with 567, 567A and 567B engines were best left idling between overhauls to avoid damage. The Victorian Railways actually disconnected the engine start switch, and insisted that should a locomotive shut down (or be shut down) a technician should be called to check the locomotive out before restarting it. This was mainly due to concern for water leaks.

While things are not as bad today, there is still a trade-off between paying for fuel to leave the unit idling, or risking greater cost for possible damage by shutting the unit down.

Peter

[M636C]

cpbloom,

There are two points to your question. Yes fuel is costly, but EMD in particular have introduced a low speed idle, which cuts idle fuel consumption by about 30%. What is the alternative? If the engine is shut down, it cools down. This causes stresses in the structure of the engine, and in cold weather, the coolant might freeze. Some locomotives have a computer system that checks the temperature and restarts the engine and runs it for as long as required to heat it up for an extended shut down. Otherwise heaters can be fitted to maintain the engine temperature.

EMD engines are at most risk, because they have air inlet ports part way down the cylinder, and there is always the risk that coolant might leak through these ports into the cylinder. This is only a problem if the piston is below the inlet port, because it is possible that on starting, the water will be trapped above the piston on starting, and will (being effectively incompressible) breal the head from the cylinder liner. The risk of this happening has been greatly reduced since the change to water jackets attached to the liners, which occured with the 567C engine in the mid 1950s, but there is still a real risk, and EMD locomotives still have a very slow crank speed on first restarting, to help any water drain before it can be trapped.

Locomotives with 567, 567A and 567B engines were best left idling between overhauls to avoid damage. The Victorian Railways actually disconnected the engine start switch, and insisted that should a locomotive shut down (or be shut down) a technician should be called to check the locomotive out before restarting it. This was mainly due to concern for water leaks.

While things are not as bad today, there is still a trade-off between paying for fuel to leave the unit idling, or risking greater cost for possible damage by shutting the unit down.

Peter

[cpbloom]

I didn't see this posted previously, if it has been I apologize. Anyway, my question is about locomotives idling; I'm not talking about waiting at a signal, but more like waiting in yards for their next road assignments. Is it more efficient (certainly not fuel efficient) to keep them running while their not doing anything. I was EMD's website and they said that locos spend more than 3600 hours a year in idle. I have always wondered about this but never asked.

[cpbloom]

I didn't see this posted previously, if it has been I apologize. Anyway, my question is about locomotives idling; I'm not talking about waiting at a signal, but more like waiting in yards for their next road assignments. Is it more efficient (certainly not fuel efficient) to keep them running while their not doing anything. I was EMD's website and they said that locos spend more than 3600 hours a year in idle. I have always wondered about this but never asked.

[M636C]

Dan,

Coopers is only used by South Australians, the Orions being based just North of Adelaide. Other Australians blame the local water and old English brewing techniques for the results obtained drinking Coopers!

Only minimal capital letters, even now!

Peter

[M636C]

Dan,

Coopers is only used by South Australians, the Orions being based just North of Adelaide. Other Australians blame the local water and old English brewing techniques for the results obtained drinking Coopers!

Only minimal capital letters, even now!

Peter

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

dharmon,

Certainly, the engine heat was the reason I was given for that location.

And I've been trying to remember my RAAF Squadron numbers (I was only directly involved with the F/A-18s), so I have to guess - do No 10 fly AP-3C Orions?

But in general, the RAAF combine a really easygoing approach off duty with really professional flying. In the RAN we are just jealous of the quality accommodation they seem to arrange when away from home base!

Peter

AP-3s..you are correct sir....and with regards to the work hard / play hard. Last night was the end of exercise party hosted by the squadron. This morning, after sampling a fair amount of Coopers....I am most assuredly in support of Rule G. Typing seems very loud this morning.

No one is allowed to use all caps until noon.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

dharmon,

Certainly, the engine heat was the reason I was given for that location.

And I've been trying to remember my RAAF Squadron numbers (I was only directly involved with the F/A-18s), so I have to guess - do No 10 fly AP-3C Orions?

But in general, the RAAF combine a really easygoing approach off duty with really professional flying. In the RAN we are just jealous of the quality accommodation they seem to arrange when away from home base!

Peter

AP-3s..you are correct sir....and with regards to the work hard / play hard. Last night was the end of exercise party hosted by the squadron. This morning, after sampling a fair amount of Coopers....I am most assuredly in support of Rule G. Typing seems very loud this morning.

No one is allowed to use all caps until noon.