QUOTE: Originally posted by solzrules [(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D]
QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Hey....lets talk Erie Lackawanna. ed
QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol Milwaukee had 76% of Port of Seattle traffic, 60% of Port of Tacoma, and 23% of overall Washington State traffic compared to Union Pacific's 15%. Milwaukee's Kansas City blocking from the Pacific Northwest got to Kansas City faster than BN's, even though BN had the shorter route to Kansas City. Best regards, Michael Sol
QUOTE: Originally posted by Kevin C. Smith QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol It is true the PCE was remarkably compact -- not a lot of little branch lines wandering all over, and the ones such as Moses Lake were suprisingly productive. But that was the point. The PCE basically shot from the Twin Cities into the ports at Tacoma and Seattle, then Portland. That was 1770 miles of long haul, 1,916 including Portland. Add in the Louisville traffic and there is a 2600 mile line haul. I seem to recall-in the dark recesses of my faulty memory-the TRAINS "Professional Iconoclast" suggested that two railroads that would work best for his proposed integral train system to bring Pacific Rim traffic to population centers in the east would be the MR and Erie. The Milwaukee Road because it was one of the transcons that ran through to Chicago, so there would be only the Chicago terminal interchange and both railroads had minimal branchlines compared to long haul mains to help eliminate rehandling and delays...FWIW
QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol It is true the PCE was remarkably compact -- not a lot of little branch lines wandering all over, and the ones such as Moses Lake were suprisingly productive. But that was the point. The PCE basically shot from the Twin Cities into the ports at Tacoma and Seattle, then Portland. That was 1770 miles of long haul, 1,916 including Portland. Add in the Louisville traffic and there is a 2600 mile line haul.
QUOTE: Originally posted by CMSTPP I like to pronounce it....... Erie lack-a-money!!!![:D][:P][(-D] This is the only thing I know about the Erie Lakawanna. This will be interesting. James
QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo (NOT MR - that is the McCloud River)...
QUOTE: Originally posted by rebelfdl I've been following this thread since the beginning...valid arguements all around... BUT...Of the major contributors to this thread... How many worked for MILW... Where in the company.... If not, where is your info coming from???? Just to clear things up for us non-MILW people....
QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo QUOTE: Originally posted by rebelfdl I've been following this thread since the beginning...valid arguements all around... BUT...Of the major contributors to this thread... How many worked for MILW... Where in the company.... If not, where is your info coming from???? Just to clear things up for us non-MILW people.... I can only speak for myself, but I worked WITH the MILW at Portland. Michael Sol and Randy Stahl did work for the MILW. I had a job offer from the MILW in the early 1970's and did not accept. The reasons, however, had nothing to do with the Company. My dad was born in Terry, MT, and grew up there and told me many "yarns" about the MILW during the 1920's. Michael Sol's father and grandfather worked for the MILW, also.
QUOTE: Originally posted by greyhounds QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo Originally posted by rebelfdl I've been following this thread since the beginning...valid arguements all around... BUT...Of the major contributors to this thread... How many worked for MILW... Where in the company.... If not, where is your info coming from???? Just to clear things up for us non-MILW people.... I can only speak for myself, but I worked WITH the MILW at Portland. Michael Sol and Randy Stahl did work for the MILW. I had a job offer from the MILW in the early 1970's and did not accept. The reasons, however, had nothing to do with the Company. My dad was born in Terry, MT, and grew up there and told me many "yarns" about the MILW during the 1920's. Michael Sol's father and grandfather worked for the MILW, also. Well, that helps explain his emotion which I'm convinced is excessive and actually crosses the border of irrationality. What did Mr. Sol do for the old MILW? BTW, I myself worked for a forwarder, the Illinois Central Gulf (I left as Asst. Director Intermodal Market Development and Pricing), and RoadRailer. "By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that. Reply solzrules Member sinceJanuary 2006 From: SE Wisconsin 1,181 posts Posted by solzrules on Friday, May 19, 2006 8:47 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by rebelfdl I've been following this thread since the beginning...valid arguements all around... BUT...Of the major contributors to this thread... How many worked for MILW... Where in the company.... If not, where is your info coming from???? Just to clear things up for us non-MILW people.... Books, my friend. Books and these threads. But mostly books. You think this is bad? Just wait until inflation kicks in..... Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Friday, May 19, 2006 9:40 AM Speaking of books, has any got the updated "Electric Way Across the Mountains" ? Are there any changes from the earlier version ? Dale Reply CMSTPP Member sinceAugust 2005 From: Along the old Milwaukee Road. 1,152 posts Posted by CMSTPP on Friday, May 19, 2006 12:59 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by solzrules QUOTE: Originally posted by rebelfdl I've been following this thread since the beginning...valid arguements all around... BUT...Of the major contributors to this thread... How many worked for MILW... Where in the company.... If not, where is your info coming from???? Just to clear things up for us non-MILW people.... Books, my friend. Books and these threads. But mostly books. I agree I must have 15 books on the milwaukee and I have learned so much from them. I have learned a little on the forum such as the PCE. But yup it's mostly books and I never did see the milwaukee road running. I wasn't yet born. James The Milwaukee Road From Miles City, Montana, to Avery, Idaho. The Mighty Milwaukee's Rocky Mountain Division. Visit: http://www.sd45.com/milwaukeeroad/index.htm Reply erikem Member sinceDecember 2005 From: Cardiff, CA 2,930 posts Posted by erikem on Saturday, May 20, 2006 1:05 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo My dad was born in Terry, MT, and grew up there and told me many "yarns" about the MILW during the 1920's. Michael Sol's father and grandfather worked for the MILW, also. Interesting - my dad was born in Miles City, but my Aunt and older uncle were born in Terry - my grand father's first job in the US was helping his brother-in-law Bernie Kempton with the horse teams used for grading the PCE through Terry. Last time i was in Terry was for a family reunion - staying of course at the Kempton Hotel. Have you seen a copy of "Wheels across Prairie County" put out by the Prairie County Historical society ca 1970? Reply solzrules Member sinceJanuary 2006 From: SE Wisconsin 1,181 posts Posted by solzrules on Saturday, May 20, 2006 1:16 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by erikem QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo My dad was born in Terry, MT, and grew up there and told me many "yarns" about the MILW during the 1920's. Michael Sol's father and grandfather worked for the MILW, also. Interesting - my dad was born in Miles City, but my Aunt and older uncle were born in Terry - my grand father's first job in the US was helping his brother-in-law Bernie Kempton with the horse teams used for grading the PCE through Terry. Last time i was in Terry was for a family reunion - staying of course at the Kempton Hotel. Have you seen a copy of "Wheels across Prairie County" put out by the Prairie County Historical society ca 1970? Never heard of it. What is it about? You think this is bad? Just wait until inflation kicks in..... Reply erikem Member sinceDecember 2005 From: Cardiff, CA 2,930 posts Posted by erikem on Saturday, May 20, 2006 10:33 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by solzrules QUOTE: Originally posted by erikem QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo My dad was born in Terry, MT, and grew up there and told me many "yarns" about the MILW during the 1920's. Michael Sol's father and grandfather worked for the MILW, also. Interesting - my dad was born in Miles City, but my Aunt and older uncle were born in Terry - my grand father's first job in the US was helping his brother-in-law Bernie Kempton with the horse teams used for grading the PCE through Terry. Last time i was in Terry was for a family reunion - staying of course at the Kempton Hotel. Have you seen a copy of "Wheels across Prairie County" put out by the Prairie County Historical society ca 1970? Never heard of it. What is it about? A history of all of the families who lived in Prairie County, which includes Terry. I don't recall seeing much of anything about the MILW, but it did touch quite a number of people there. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, May 20, 2006 11:33 AM The historic and current trend regarding PNW westbound intermodal is that it's always been light. Mostly auto. Most PNW westbound has been and is still PR export stuff, while import intermodal dominates eastbound. LA and SoCal's a different story, lot's of domestic westbound intermodal aka Santa Fe. Hmmm, Ken should know this......... Reply Edit MichaelSol Member sinceOctober 2004 3,190 posts Posted by MichaelSol on Saturday, May 20, 2006 12:14 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal The historic and current trend regarding PNW westbound intermodal is that it's always been light. Mostly auto. Most PNW westbound has been and is still PR export stuff, while import intermodal dominates eastbound. LA and SoCal's a different story, lot's of domestic westbound intermodal aka Santa Fe. Hmmm, Ken should know this......... For the period in question, 1974 or thereabouts, Port of Seattle was handling about 8,000 TEU's per month import eastbound. The Port had a defined preference for working with the Milwaukee and Milwaukee's Tokyo office seemed to develop better relationships with the ocean carriers, mostly APL, Sea-Land, Japan Six and K-Line. Going through a bunch of data and making some extrapolations, I can suggest that BN had about 14 revenue export TEU's westbound into Seattle per day. Whether that is technically "negligble" compared to Milwaukee's 100 or more import TEU's eastbound, I guess is it a matter of perspective. ["Seattle Harbor Container Traffic," Port of Seattle Planning and Research Department, January, 1978. p. 52]. Port of Seattle's Planning and Research Dept was cranking out all sorts of scenarios for growth. Interestingly, several of the studies don't even mention westbound intermodal traffic. Recent historical trends through the Port of Seattle show that import intermodal continues to grow at 4.8%, export intermodal at 3.8%, and westbound empties continue to grow at 4.2%. Currently, the ratio is about 2.2 to 1, in favor of eastbound intermodal. Reply MichaelSol Member sinceOctober 2004 3,190 posts Posted by MichaelSol on Saturday, May 20, 2006 1:07 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Kevin C. Smith Since the PCE was the "last man in" to Sea/Tac area, how long did it take for the MILW to gain that lion's share of the traffic? Probably not long. GN's western terminal was really in Everett, and NPs in Tacoma. Each served Seattle on essentially branch lines. It was an important echo from the Northern Securities battle that both E.H. Harriman and William Rockefeller decided jointly to build into downtown Seattle, cooperated in the effort, and UP even loaned Milwaukee $5 million at one point when Wm Rockefeller couldn't find his checkbook. GN's lines west earned only about $20 million in 1913; the CM&PS already earned $13 million. Since Everett was a pretty busy port in those days, Milwaukee probably already had the lion's share at Seattle. Reply MichaelSol Member sinceOctober 2004 3,190 posts Posted by MichaelSol on Saturday, May 20, 2006 2:01 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Kevin C. Smith QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol Milwaukee had 76% of Port of Seattle traffic, 60% of Port of Tacoma, and 23% of overall Washington State traffic compared to Union Pacific's 15%. Milwaukee's Kansas City blocking from the Pacific Northwest got to Kansas City faster than BN's, even though BN had the shorter route to Kansas City. Best regards, Michael Sol Despite the MILW's preponderance of traffic from Seattle & Tacoma, the smaller share of the total Washington state has me curious. Was this because NP and maybe GN had more/more productive branch lines to draw traffic from outside the port cities? Or were there enough other urban areas that the GN/NP served that the MILW didn't? My ORG's show a lot of NP lines in Washington State, but that doesn't mean a lot of traffic. Well, from a historical perspective, there were five major rail lines: Union Pacific, Milwaukee, Great Northern, Northern Pacific, and SP&S. The average market share would be 20%. Milwaukee was above average. If Union Pacific is removed, Milwaukee is still above the average remaining market share of GN, MILW, NP and SP&S of 21%. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, May 20, 2006 2:59 PM Excuse me for jumping in with this question for all the MILW experts This is one that I have never heard a answer for. Milw plotted a line from Tacoma to Yakama that was only partly built (Elby east about 5 miles) Was the land (right of way) that was plotted ever purchased, aquired by MILW, or was it just a map plot The real question is what happened to the land rights? Reply Edit MichaelSol Member sinceOctober 2004 3,190 posts Posted by MichaelSol on Saturday, May 20, 2006 3:04 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by pactrail Excuse me for jumping in with this question for all the MILW experts This is one that I have never heard a answer for. Milw plotted a line from Tacoma to Yakama that was only partly built (Elby east about 5 miles) Was the land (right of way) that was plotted ever purchased, aquired by MILW, or was it just a map plot The real question is what happened to the land rights? Well, that's on odd coincidence. A colleague ran across a series of files on the Milwaukee's Yakima surveys at the Washington State Dept of Natural Resources and we were discussing those just yesterday. I had never heard of them. Reply kenneo Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Upper Left Coast 1,796 posts Posted by kenneo on Sunday, May 21, 2006 2:00 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by erikem QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo My dad was born in Terry, MT, and grew up there and told me many "yarns" about the MILW during the 1920's. Michael Sol's father and grandfather worked for the MILW, also. Interesting - my dad was born in Miles City, but my Aunt and older uncle were born in Terry - my grand father's first job in the US was helping his brother-in-law Bernie Kempton with the horse teams used for grading the PCE through Terry. Last time i was in Terry was for a family reunion - staying of course at the Kempton Hotel. Have you seen a copy of "Wheels across Prairie County" put out by the Prairie County Historical society ca 1970? No, I have not. But your grandfather and mine may have know each other. Grandad owned several ranch properties around Terry and Hysham, a bank and a chain of lumber yards. Eric Reply kenneo Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Upper Left Coast 1,796 posts Posted by kenneo on Sunday, May 21, 2006 2:13 AM Michael and pactrail ---- The Tacoma and Eastern (now owned by the City of Tacoma) was the MILW extension South toward the Columbia. I don't know who originated the line, but the MILW took it over after construction ceased near Elba. The line to the East eventually went as far as Morton. It was supposed to go over White Pass and down into Yakima (parallel to US 12) but that would have been another Stevens Pass situation with grades and tunnels. I don't know much more about it than that. If you have ever been over White Pass it will remind you of Rollins Pass prior to the drilling of the Moffett Tunnel and the D&SL's crossing. Eric Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, May 21, 2006 9:00 AM Eric, Thanks for the reply. However the Elbe - Morton - Davidson Lake line is not the line in question. MILW was building a line from Elbe to Ashford and then plotted to Yakama. Some of which followed Highway 704. That right of way is the land plot / ownership in question. The Mount Rainier SR runs on the Elbe - Morton - Davidson Lake line. Reply Edit greyhounds Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Antioch, IL 4,371 posts Posted by greyhounds on Sunday, May 21, 2006 4:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal The historic and current trend regarding PNW westbound intermodal is that it's always been light. Mostly auto. Most PNW westbound has been and is still PR export stuff, while import intermodal dominates eastbound. LA and SoCal's a different story, lot's of domestic westbound intermodal aka Santa Fe. Hmmm, Ken should know this......... "Mostly Auto". What are you talking about? What I know (gleaned from actually routing intermodal freight to the PNW from Chicago) is: 1) Chicago was a major manufacturing center that generated a lot of TOFC business in the 70's 2) People in the PNW used these manufactured products, you know, outboard motors, bycycles, floor tile, Cracker Jax, alarm clocks, etc. 3) People in the PNW also used products made east and south of Chicago - products that were shipped TOFC, or trucked, into Chicago and interchanged to BN and CNW/UP for intermodal movement to the PNW. 4) Truckers such as Yellow Freight had regular volume TOFC movements of LTL to the PNW. When I was with the ICG we handled the Yellow traffic. It was routed ICG-CHGO-BN. Sometimes Yellow would switch the routing to ICG=CHGO-CNW-FRMT-UP, but their 10 or so trailers/day were always there. 5) Add up the trucker LTL, the UPS, the US Mail, and the manurfactured goods and you had a good volume of westbound TOFC to be put on a train in Chicago. 6) "Good Volume" that was sufficient for both the BN and CNW/UP to establish dedicated intermodal service between Chicago and Seattle by the mid 70's. I don't know what your definition of "light" is, but the volume was "heavy" enough to support competing services on two different rail routes. The MILW, of course, couldn't run with the BN or the CNW/UP routings. I never saw Yellow put a load on the MILW. The freight was there, the MILW was just not cometitive for it. Intermodal was the real traffic growth potential for the railroads and the PCE of the MILW just couldn't be competitive for it. Of course the Santa Fe lead the way in intermodal developmet. But the PNW had good intermodal (read TOFC in the 70's) traffic and the two viable lines from Chicago to the PNW served and competed for this business. The non-viable cancer on the rail industry line, Milwaukee's PCE, didn't have a chance to get this time sensative traffic. Again, what were you talking about with intermodal autos. "By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, May 21, 2006 5:17 PM Ken, you're set for the straight jacket. The dominate manufactured good from the Upper Midwest was autos. The time period you're talking about, basically 1970's on up, PNW consumption patterns favored imported manufactures over Midwest manufactures. This is the period when Japanese goods became major market players, and the PNW was a key Japanese market. You just didn't get alot of Chicago manufactured goods bound for the PNW once the import patterns were established. More than likely, any westbound intermodals were getting what was left of the domestic goods market, and since the Milwaukee was favored by the importers via Seattle and Tacoma, what Chicago goods bound for the PNW that were left would probaby favor another routing in defiance of the import friendly Milwaukee. Perhaps also Yellow and Milwaukee just didn't have a working relationship. They were scraps, Ken, just scraps. But if you can explain why a "cancer" can dominate the Asian import trade through PNW ports, feel free to expound. It is amazing that you have become so addled that you cannot discern between the favorable position of Milwaukee's PCE relative to the other PNW transcons, and the real cancer on the Milwaukee's system, namely the Midwest Granger lines. In the meantime, we'll arrange a rendevous between you and those nice young men in their clean white suits and they're coming to take you away, ha ha....... Reply Edit « First«6789101112»Last » Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo Originally posted by rebelfdl I've been following this thread since the beginning...valid arguements all around... BUT...Of the major contributors to this thread... How many worked for MILW... Where in the company.... If not, where is your info coming from???? Just to clear things up for us non-MILW people.... I can only speak for myself, but I worked WITH the MILW at Portland. Michael Sol and Randy Stahl did work for the MILW. I had a job offer from the MILW in the early 1970's and did not accept. The reasons, however, had nothing to do with the Company. My dad was born in Terry, MT, and grew up there and told me many "yarns" about the MILW during the 1920's. Michael Sol's father and grandfather worked for the MILW, also.
Originally posted by rebelfdl I've been following this thread since the beginning...valid arguements all around... BUT...Of the major contributors to this thread... How many worked for MILW... Where in the company.... If not, where is your info coming from???? Just to clear things up for us non-MILW people....
QUOTE: Originally posted by solzrules QUOTE: Originally posted by rebelfdl I've been following this thread since the beginning...valid arguements all around... BUT...Of the major contributors to this thread... How many worked for MILW... Where in the company.... If not, where is your info coming from???? Just to clear things up for us non-MILW people.... Books, my friend. Books and these threads. But mostly books.
QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo My dad was born in Terry, MT, and grew up there and told me many "yarns" about the MILW during the 1920's. Michael Sol's father and grandfather worked for the MILW, also.
QUOTE: Originally posted by erikem QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo My dad was born in Terry, MT, and grew up there and told me many "yarns" about the MILW during the 1920's. Michael Sol's father and grandfather worked for the MILW, also. Interesting - my dad was born in Miles City, but my Aunt and older uncle were born in Terry - my grand father's first job in the US was helping his brother-in-law Bernie Kempton with the horse teams used for grading the PCE through Terry. Last time i was in Terry was for a family reunion - staying of course at the Kempton Hotel. Have you seen a copy of "Wheels across Prairie County" put out by the Prairie County Historical society ca 1970?
QUOTE: Originally posted by solzrules QUOTE: Originally posted by erikem QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo My dad was born in Terry, MT, and grew up there and told me many "yarns" about the MILW during the 1920's. Michael Sol's father and grandfather worked for the MILW, also. Interesting - my dad was born in Miles City, but my Aunt and older uncle were born in Terry - my grand father's first job in the US was helping his brother-in-law Bernie Kempton with the horse teams used for grading the PCE through Terry. Last time i was in Terry was for a family reunion - staying of course at the Kempton Hotel. Have you seen a copy of "Wheels across Prairie County" put out by the Prairie County Historical society ca 1970? Never heard of it. What is it about?
QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal The historic and current trend regarding PNW westbound intermodal is that it's always been light. Mostly auto. Most PNW westbound has been and is still PR export stuff, while import intermodal dominates eastbound. LA and SoCal's a different story, lot's of domestic westbound intermodal aka Santa Fe. Hmmm, Ken should know this.........
QUOTE: Originally posted by Kevin C. Smith Since the PCE was the "last man in" to Sea/Tac area, how long did it take for the MILW to gain that lion's share of the traffic?
QUOTE: Originally posted by Kevin C. Smith QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol Milwaukee had 76% of Port of Seattle traffic, 60% of Port of Tacoma, and 23% of overall Washington State traffic compared to Union Pacific's 15%. Milwaukee's Kansas City blocking from the Pacific Northwest got to Kansas City faster than BN's, even though BN had the shorter route to Kansas City. Best regards, Michael Sol Despite the MILW's preponderance of traffic from Seattle & Tacoma, the smaller share of the total Washington state has me curious. Was this because NP and maybe GN had more/more productive branch lines to draw traffic from outside the port cities? Or were there enough other urban areas that the GN/NP served that the MILW didn't? My ORG's show a lot of NP lines in Washington State, but that doesn't mean a lot of traffic.
QUOTE: Originally posted by pactrail Excuse me for jumping in with this question for all the MILW experts This is one that I have never heard a answer for. Milw plotted a line from Tacoma to Yakama that was only partly built (Elby east about 5 miles) Was the land (right of way) that was plotted ever purchased, aquired by MILW, or was it just a map plot The real question is what happened to the land rights?
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