QUOTE: Originally posted by ardenastationmaster -too obsolete, like a diesel submarine.
QUOTE: Originally posted by METRO QUOTE: Originally posted by ardenastationmaster -too obsolete, like a diesel submarine. Don't discount the mighty diesel. Diesel/electric subs are still the quietest in the world and the Russian Foxtrot class is purpose designed to kill American nuclear aircraft carriers on lone wolf missions without being detected. Still could be kinda useful... Now I just hope the Russians don't sell them to Iran. haha Cheers! ~METRO
Dan
QUOTE: Originally posted by Lord Atmo i never get busted for photography in Altoona. ever. i even get waved to by engineers and other crewmembers frequently
QUOTE: Originally posted by shay1925 There is no such law. Go to this web site, print out the photographer's rights brief, carry it with you, and go have fun. Jim http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm
QUOTE: Originally posted by rkcartwright ooookay, I just gotta put my two cents in & set some of this right so nobody gets hurt here. Any city or township or whatever can draw up their own ordinanace about anything and enforce it. You can quote federal law till your blue in the face, but it wont help until the day you go to court. Until then you may be in jail. #2. Private security people may have the right and power to DETAIN you, until the police arrive. How they do that depends on A. How their trained, B, How their equipped, and C, what measures the people who contracted with them will allow. I personally would not want to risk giving some nimrod wannabe who couldnt qualify to be a peace officer an excuse to mace or stun or tune me up with a baton. Some of these folks are a brick shy of a full load, and it all comes down to their word against yours. Be cool, recognize that these are weird times, and common place things in our lives are going to be different for a while till it all settles down. I go to Cajon Pass frequently and you really have to watch your step. You are dealing with people who have been stationed out in the boonies by their selves with a cell phone and an over active imagination. You dont wanna mess with some clown who hasnt taken his meds that day. And anybody who trys to argue with a genuine cop is just asking for trouble. They arent going to back down even if you show them a copy of the U.S. Constitution. . Tke it easy out there folks. It isnt worth the trouble.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Safety Valve Turn over the film? HAH. It's all digital now. I keep a small digital film card that has random images on it.
QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFrailfan QUOTE: Originally posted by bnsfkline I carry around a copy of "The photograpers rights" and that usally shuts em up and they go away grumbling. Photographing trains is NOT a federal offence, if it was, we'd ALL be in federal prison! Now that tells it like it is.
QUOTE: Originally posted by bnsfkline I carry around a copy of "The photograpers rights" and that usally shuts em up and they go away grumbling. Photographing trains is NOT a federal offence, if it was, we'd ALL be in federal prison!
Originally posted by dsktc Why are these weird times? Have we suspended the Constitution, Habeas Corpus and the rule of law? Dave You will make all those fine arguments in court. They wont be heard by the person who arrests you. And, these are weird times because terrorist activity is forefront in everyone's minds now,and a very easy excuse for just about everything involving trespassing. . I simply offer advice. Take it, or dont, live with your choice. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 3:57 AM Indeed, I shall make all of these fine legal arguments in court and prevail. Dave QUOTE: Originally posted by rkcartwright Originally posted by dsktc Why are these weird times? Have we suspended the Constitution, Habeas Corpus and the rule of law? Dave You will make all those fine arguments in court. They wont be heard by the person who arrests you. And, these are weird times because terrorist activity is forefront in everyone's minds now,and a very easy excuse for just about everything involving trespassing. . I simply offer advice. Take it, or dont, live with your choice. Reply Edit edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 4:00 AM Oh yes they will hear about all of that, and much, much more. Those very arguments will be heard by the person who arrests me, my attorney guarantees that. And the following civil suit against the officer and his or her department will make sure that the message gets through in the most fundamental and costly way. Or, we could follow someone’s advice, and stick our heads in the sand and leave it up to someone else...that is what you’re saying, that our Constitutional rights are not even worth a night in jail? Cause if you are, then I think you missed the whole point in civilians having rights in the first place… QUOTE: Originally posted by rkcartwright Originally posted by dsktc Why are these weird times? Have we suspended the Constitution, Habeas Corpus and the rule of law? Dave You will make all those fine arguments in court. They wont be heard by the person who arrests you. And, these are weird times because terrorist activity is forefront in everyone's minds now,and a very easy excuse for just about everything involving trespassing. . I simply offer advice. Take it, or dont, live with your choice. 23 17 46 11 Reply Hugh Jampton Member sinceSeptember 2003 From: Southern Region now, UK 820 posts Posted by Hugh Jampton on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 10:22 AM My advice: Stay away from Spain, even before the bombings train photography of any kind, even tryin to take a picture of the missus in a station brings a number of law enforcement officers running, all of them shouting; NO PHOTO!!! NO PHOTO!!, and don't even think of trying to take a picture of an actual train as they will quickly arrest you. Generally a lurker by natureBe AlertThe world needs more lerts.It's the 3rd rail that makes the difference. Reply germanium Member sinceDecember 2005 From: Hampshire, England 290 posts Posted by germanium on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 10:31 AM Putting a uniform on a half-wit doesn't make him any less of a half-wit, probably makes him more so. Reply trainboyH16-44 Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: Mile 7.5 Laggan Sub., Great White North 4,201 posts Posted by trainboyH16-44 on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 2:54 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by dananbeth I have taken the time to read evryone posts and i have just 1 simple thing to say. If you wanna take pictures of the trains and who doesnt??? come on over to the Rochelle trainpark and snap away!!! You can take all the shots you want hassle free. I did that once...took me a week to get there! Too bad there aren't more places where you can safely take pictures without any chance of harassment. I had a good day on Monday, I went railfanning for a few hours, and everybody was friendly and not a single person looked suspicious! Go here for my rail shots! http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=9296 Building the CPR Kootenay division in N scale, blog here: http://kootenaymodelrailway.wordpress.com/ Reply coldguy Member sinceAugust 2005 From: Milwaukee, WI 35 posts Posted by coldguy on Thursday, April 27, 2006 12:03 AM Certainly there is no law against taking pictures of trains, or anything else in a public setting. And a private security guard can't do much of anything besides look menacingly at you, unless you're on the private property they're protecting. But don't lose your mind over it. We are a civilized people, are we not. Don't let it ruin your day. But I have some words for many of you amateur lawyers. You sould take the advice of the few wise posters here who are urging you to respect law enforcement. Don't think that because you are able to qoute a few lines of the constitution that you are invincible. If a police officer thinks you are acting suspiciosly, they have probable cause to stop and question you. Be polite, stop taking pictures, and answer their questions. If they tell you to put away the camera, put it away. If they tell you to leave, then leave. Don't start a civil rights rally right then and there, because you will lose. If you're a jerk and argue with an officer, they can cite you for any number of misdemearors, most commonly, loitering. Get a little loud and you're disturbing the peace. Use profanities and you're disorderly. Flip them off or spit in their general direction and you've just assaulted a police officer. Put up a fight, and you're resisting arrest. You get where I'm going here? You don't know all the information about why that officer is there. There may have been a previous incident of vandalism or some other crime at the place where you happen to be, just taking pictures. You may have accidently wandered onto private property, and someone called. Do you really want to spend some time in a squad car, or holding cell, or get maced, or taserd, over some pictures? Exercise some common sense! Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, April 27, 2006 3:54 AM Respect law enforcement?! Respect them when they're wrong and ignorant of the law?! I submit we need to teach respect for the constitution and the rule of law to everyone, including those in law enforcement. Quoting Justice White in TERRY v. OHIO, 392 U.S. 1 (1968): http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=392&invol=1 "There is nothing in the Constitution which prevents a policeman from addressing questions to anyone on the streets. Absent special circumstances, the person approached may not be detained or frisked but may refuse to cooperate and go on his way. However, given the proper circumstances, such as those in this case, it seems to me the person may be briefly detained against his will while pertinent questions are directed to him. Of course, the person stopped is not obliged to answer, answers may not be compelled, and refusal to answer furnishes no basis for an arrest, although it may alert the officer to the need for continued observation." Dave QUOTE: Originally posted by coldguy But I have some words for many of you amateur lawyers. You sould take the advice of the few wise posters here who are urging you to respect law enforcement. Don't think that because you are able to qoute a few lines of the constitution that you are invincible. If a police officer thinks you are acting suspiciosly, they have probable cause to stop and question you. Be polite, stop taking pictures, and answer their questions. If they tell you to put away the camera, put it away. If they tell you to leave, then leave. Don't start a civil rights rally right then and there, because you will lose. If you're a jerk and argue with an officer, they can cite you for any number of misdemearors, most commonly, loitering. Get a little loud and you're disturbing the peace. Use profanities and you're disorderly. Flip them off or spit in their general direction and you've just assaulted a police officer. Put up a fight, and you're resisting arrest. You get where I'm going here? You don't know all the information about why that officer is there. There may have been a previous incident of vandalism or some other crime at the place where you happen to be, just taking pictures. You may have accidently wandered onto private property, and someone called. Do you really want to spend some time in a squad car, or holding cell, or get maced, or taserd, over some pictures? Exercise some common sense! Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, April 27, 2006 5:26 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Hugh Jampton My advice: Stay away from Spain, even before the bombings train photography of any kind, even tryin to take a picture of the missus in a station brings a number of law enforcement officers running, all of them shouting; NO PHOTO!!! NO PHOTO!!, and don't even think of trying to take a picture of an actual train as they will quickly arrest you. Interesting to hear that - may explain why Spain is poorly-covered by the internet rail photo sites. I've railfanned in France a few times, however not since 9/11. Before then you used to get odd looks but I guess they must be used to people taking photographs of the TGVs by now, and I never got hassled. It's not just trains either - if I take a photo of a ship or dock area now (another interest of mine) I take care to do so very quietly and without advertising my presence, also making sure that I'm stood in a public area. If anyone's about, the camera goes away. I've rather taken to using a camera phone - only 1 megapixel but after you learn how to use it you can get some pretty good shots, certainly good enough for modelling purposes. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, April 27, 2006 9:05 PM Unless they are real police or point a gun at me, I pretty much just ignore anyone who attempts to interrupt one of my favorite pastimes. And of course carry my "photographers rights"with me...... Reply Edit RudyRockvilleMD Member sinceSeptember 2001 From: US 1,015 posts Posted by RudyRockvilleMD on Friday, April 28, 2006 10:26 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Hugh Jampton My advice: Stay away from Spain, even before the bombings train photography of any kind, even tryin to take a picture of the missus in a station brings a number of law enforcement officers running, all of them shouting; NO PHOTO!!! NO PHOTO!!, and don't even think of trying to take a picture of an actual train as they will quickly arrest you. Hugh:I don't doubt your railroad photography experience in Spain so your advice is well taken, but I did not have any trouble photographing trains in stations in Spain in either of my trips in 1998 and 2002. I photographed RENFE's Talgo's Euromeds (broad gauge versions of Spain's AVE's) and freight trains from a platform in Tarragona right across the tracks from the railroad police in 1998 without any trouble. However, when I saw what I thought was a security guard on the platform I asked him in Spanish if it was ok to phtograph trains, and he told me "no" so I left; possibly he didn't understand my question or my Spanish. I photogrphed a few trains from public property in Tarragona without any problems after I left the station. I met an English speaking railfan on a platform of a suburban station south of Madrid in 2002, and I asked him what he knew about photographing trains from station platforms, and he told me he never had any problems. So when I got back to Puerta de Atocha in Madrid I photographed two AVE's from their platforms, and I left; again, with no problems even though there were some security guards walking around. I was lucky both times, but since the bombings in Madrid in 2004 I would not photograph trains anywhere in Spain, even from public property. When I visited Spain in 2002 I noticed the trains were all running in flat land so I had to conclude that the trains in Spain run mostly in the plains . Reply RudyRockvilleMD Member sinceSeptember 2001 From: US 1,015 posts Posted by RudyRockvilleMD on Friday, April 28, 2006 11:07 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by nobullchitbids Guys, the rules are simple: 1) The First Amendment remains the fundamental law of the land. 2) Unless clearly and unambiguously posted for genuine reasons of national security (e.g. the inside of an atom-bomb assembly plant), photographing anything from a public place is permissible, and no statute trumps the Constitution. 3) The railroad has the right to regulate activity on its own land. 4) Many stations are railroad property, even though open to the public. 5) Wackenhutt Security is a private security firm; in many states, its personnel can execute arrests; however, such an arrest is no different from any other citizen's arrest, and the executing individual, if a private person, does not enjoy any kind of judicial or quasi-judicial immunity (both he and the company can be sued for damages). 6) No one is required to turn over film to anyone (even a police officer), unless he actually is under arrest -- a threat of arrest is not sufficient. 7) Even an actual police officer is not immune from suit for violating First-Amendment rights (18 U.S.C. sec. 242; 42 U.S.C.. secs. 1983, 1985). 8) Most courts have jurisdiction only over "cases" or "controversies" -- there must be an actual arrest, or a civil suit, before them for the court to defend your rights. So, show some courage, guys: The next time some self-appointed defender of the law threatens you with arrest for doing something perfectly legal, call his hand on it and tell him his alternative is to take a hike or face arrest for assault (you should call the cops, not arrest him yourself -- see above). BUT, do make certain you are on public land when you do this! I agree with your points, but let me sort of a devil's advocate. While many stations are railroad property, open to the public, the question whether stations owned by public transit authorities are public property in the sense of a public sidewalk or a public park has never been tested in court so each transit authority can determine whehter to allow photography from its stations' platforms. Currently METRA, Metro North, and now NJ Transit permit phtography from their stations' platforms, while SEPTA bans it, and MBTA requires a permit. While indivdual police officers or their jurisdictions may not be immune to law suits for violations of civil rights, it can be expensive to sue them, and from what I understand many lawyers are reluctant to take such cases. Further, such law suits are very expensive to pursue. Be careful what you say to a "rent-a-cop," even on public property, as many of them could be sworn police officers with arrest authority who are moonlighting for "rent-a-cop" agencies. It is still best to avoid confrontation over railraod photography with law enforcement as much as possible even if they are wrong. Also, watch out for vigilantee wannabees. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, April 29, 2006 9:18 PM In response to thisQUOTE: Originally posted by cspmo QUOTE: I was threatened with arrest by a Wackenhut security person Call the Wackenbutt office and tell them where ,& when this happen, that guard would probably get fired. Security can not arrest anyone all they can do is call the Police. many states have "armed" security laws which include the right to arrest, detain, and transport people to the jail or magistrate. Best thing to do is not argue as this security person could have those priviliges. Yes even though there are no Federal Laws, there could be local ordinances that could come into effect. Reply Edit bob@osd Member sinceFebruary 2006 51 posts Posted by bob@osd on Sunday, April 30, 2006 7:37 PM Just a thought,CNW6000. The engineer may have thought that you were trying to photograph him parked too close to a crossing. Particularly if he is on 1 of a 2 track line, he may be afraid that, if he is setting off the crossing gates, people may be convinced that his is the only train near that crossing. Someone may decide to go around the gates and get hit by another train that is hidden by his. The railroads have faced large lawsuits due to this. Reply 123 Join our Community! 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QUOTE: Originally posted by rkcartwright Originally posted by dsktc Why are these weird times? Have we suspended the Constitution, Habeas Corpus and the rule of law? Dave You will make all those fine arguments in court. They wont be heard by the person who arrests you. And, these are weird times because terrorist activity is forefront in everyone's minds now,and a very easy excuse for just about everything involving trespassing. . I simply offer advice. Take it, or dont, live with your choice. Reply Edit edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 4:00 AM Oh yes they will hear about all of that, and much, much more. Those very arguments will be heard by the person who arrests me, my attorney guarantees that. And the following civil suit against the officer and his or her department will make sure that the message gets through in the most fundamental and costly way. Or, we could follow someone’s advice, and stick our heads in the sand and leave it up to someone else...that is what you’re saying, that our Constitutional rights are not even worth a night in jail? Cause if you are, then I think you missed the whole point in civilians having rights in the first place… QUOTE: Originally posted by rkcartwright Originally posted by dsktc Why are these weird times? Have we suspended the Constitution, Habeas Corpus and the rule of law? Dave You will make all those fine arguments in court. They wont be heard by the person who arrests you. And, these are weird times because terrorist activity is forefront in everyone's minds now,and a very easy excuse for just about everything involving trespassing. . I simply offer advice. Take it, or dont, live with your choice. 23 17 46 11 Reply Hugh Jampton Member sinceSeptember 2003 From: Southern Region now, UK 820 posts Posted by Hugh Jampton on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 10:22 AM My advice: Stay away from Spain, even before the bombings train photography of any kind, even tryin to take a picture of the missus in a station brings a number of law enforcement officers running, all of them shouting; NO PHOTO!!! NO PHOTO!!, and don't even think of trying to take a picture of an actual train as they will quickly arrest you. Generally a lurker by natureBe AlertThe world needs more lerts.It's the 3rd rail that makes the difference. Reply germanium Member sinceDecember 2005 From: Hampshire, England 290 posts Posted by germanium on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 10:31 AM Putting a uniform on a half-wit doesn't make him any less of a half-wit, probably makes him more so. Reply trainboyH16-44 Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: Mile 7.5 Laggan Sub., Great White North 4,201 posts Posted by trainboyH16-44 on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 2:54 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by dananbeth I have taken the time to read evryone posts and i have just 1 simple thing to say. If you wanna take pictures of the trains and who doesnt??? come on over to the Rochelle trainpark and snap away!!! You can take all the shots you want hassle free. I did that once...took me a week to get there! Too bad there aren't more places where you can safely take pictures without any chance of harassment. I had a good day on Monday, I went railfanning for a few hours, and everybody was friendly and not a single person looked suspicious! Go here for my rail shots! http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=9296 Building the CPR Kootenay division in N scale, blog here: http://kootenaymodelrailway.wordpress.com/ Reply coldguy Member sinceAugust 2005 From: Milwaukee, WI 35 posts Posted by coldguy on Thursday, April 27, 2006 12:03 AM Certainly there is no law against taking pictures of trains, or anything else in a public setting. And a private security guard can't do much of anything besides look menacingly at you, unless you're on the private property they're protecting. But don't lose your mind over it. We are a civilized people, are we not. Don't let it ruin your day. But I have some words for many of you amateur lawyers. You sould take the advice of the few wise posters here who are urging you to respect law enforcement. Don't think that because you are able to qoute a few lines of the constitution that you are invincible. If a police officer thinks you are acting suspiciosly, they have probable cause to stop and question you. Be polite, stop taking pictures, and answer their questions. If they tell you to put away the camera, put it away. If they tell you to leave, then leave. Don't start a civil rights rally right then and there, because you will lose. If you're a jerk and argue with an officer, they can cite you for any number of misdemearors, most commonly, loitering. Get a little loud and you're disturbing the peace. Use profanities and you're disorderly. Flip them off or spit in their general direction and you've just assaulted a police officer. Put up a fight, and you're resisting arrest. You get where I'm going here? You don't know all the information about why that officer is there. There may have been a previous incident of vandalism or some other crime at the place where you happen to be, just taking pictures. You may have accidently wandered onto private property, and someone called. Do you really want to spend some time in a squad car, or holding cell, or get maced, or taserd, over some pictures? Exercise some common sense! Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, April 27, 2006 3:54 AM Respect law enforcement?! Respect them when they're wrong and ignorant of the law?! I submit we need to teach respect for the constitution and the rule of law to everyone, including those in law enforcement. Quoting Justice White in TERRY v. OHIO, 392 U.S. 1 (1968): http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=392&invol=1 "There is nothing in the Constitution which prevents a policeman from addressing questions to anyone on the streets. Absent special circumstances, the person approached may not be detained or frisked but may refuse to cooperate and go on his way. However, given the proper circumstances, such as those in this case, it seems to me the person may be briefly detained against his will while pertinent questions are directed to him. Of course, the person stopped is not obliged to answer, answers may not be compelled, and refusal to answer furnishes no basis for an arrest, although it may alert the officer to the need for continued observation." Dave QUOTE: Originally posted by coldguy But I have some words for many of you amateur lawyers. You sould take the advice of the few wise posters here who are urging you to respect law enforcement. Don't think that because you are able to qoute a few lines of the constitution that you are invincible. If a police officer thinks you are acting suspiciosly, they have probable cause to stop and question you. Be polite, stop taking pictures, and answer their questions. If they tell you to put away the camera, put it away. If they tell you to leave, then leave. Don't start a civil rights rally right then and there, because you will lose. If you're a jerk and argue with an officer, they can cite you for any number of misdemearors, most commonly, loitering. Get a little loud and you're disturbing the peace. Use profanities and you're disorderly. Flip them off or spit in their general direction and you've just assaulted a police officer. Put up a fight, and you're resisting arrest. You get where I'm going here? You don't know all the information about why that officer is there. There may have been a previous incident of vandalism or some other crime at the place where you happen to be, just taking pictures. You may have accidently wandered onto private property, and someone called. Do you really want to spend some time in a squad car, or holding cell, or get maced, or taserd, over some pictures? Exercise some common sense! Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, April 27, 2006 5:26 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Hugh Jampton My advice: Stay away from Spain, even before the bombings train photography of any kind, even tryin to take a picture of the missus in a station brings a number of law enforcement officers running, all of them shouting; NO PHOTO!!! NO PHOTO!!, and don't even think of trying to take a picture of an actual train as they will quickly arrest you. Interesting to hear that - may explain why Spain is poorly-covered by the internet rail photo sites. I've railfanned in France a few times, however not since 9/11. Before then you used to get odd looks but I guess they must be used to people taking photographs of the TGVs by now, and I never got hassled. It's not just trains either - if I take a photo of a ship or dock area now (another interest of mine) I take care to do so very quietly and without advertising my presence, also making sure that I'm stood in a public area. If anyone's about, the camera goes away. I've rather taken to using a camera phone - only 1 megapixel but after you learn how to use it you can get some pretty good shots, certainly good enough for modelling purposes. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, April 27, 2006 9:05 PM Unless they are real police or point a gun at me, I pretty much just ignore anyone who attempts to interrupt one of my favorite pastimes. And of course carry my "photographers rights"with me...... Reply Edit RudyRockvilleMD Member sinceSeptember 2001 From: US 1,015 posts Posted by RudyRockvilleMD on Friday, April 28, 2006 10:26 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Hugh Jampton My advice: Stay away from Spain, even before the bombings train photography of any kind, even tryin to take a picture of the missus in a station brings a number of law enforcement officers running, all of them shouting; NO PHOTO!!! NO PHOTO!!, and don't even think of trying to take a picture of an actual train as they will quickly arrest you. Hugh:I don't doubt your railroad photography experience in Spain so your advice is well taken, but I did not have any trouble photographing trains in stations in Spain in either of my trips in 1998 and 2002. I photographed RENFE's Talgo's Euromeds (broad gauge versions of Spain's AVE's) and freight trains from a platform in Tarragona right across the tracks from the railroad police in 1998 without any trouble. However, when I saw what I thought was a security guard on the platform I asked him in Spanish if it was ok to phtograph trains, and he told me "no" so I left; possibly he didn't understand my question or my Spanish. I photogrphed a few trains from public property in Tarragona without any problems after I left the station. I met an English speaking railfan on a platform of a suburban station south of Madrid in 2002, and I asked him what he knew about photographing trains from station platforms, and he told me he never had any problems. So when I got back to Puerta de Atocha in Madrid I photographed two AVE's from their platforms, and I left; again, with no problems even though there were some security guards walking around. I was lucky both times, but since the bombings in Madrid in 2004 I would not photograph trains anywhere in Spain, even from public property. When I visited Spain in 2002 I noticed the trains were all running in flat land so I had to conclude that the trains in Spain run mostly in the plains . Reply RudyRockvilleMD Member sinceSeptember 2001 From: US 1,015 posts Posted by RudyRockvilleMD on Friday, April 28, 2006 11:07 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by nobullchitbids Guys, the rules are simple: 1) The First Amendment remains the fundamental law of the land. 2) Unless clearly and unambiguously posted for genuine reasons of national security (e.g. the inside of an atom-bomb assembly plant), photographing anything from a public place is permissible, and no statute trumps the Constitution. 3) The railroad has the right to regulate activity on its own land. 4) Many stations are railroad property, even though open to the public. 5) Wackenhutt Security is a private security firm; in many states, its personnel can execute arrests; however, such an arrest is no different from any other citizen's arrest, and the executing individual, if a private person, does not enjoy any kind of judicial or quasi-judicial immunity (both he and the company can be sued for damages). 6) No one is required to turn over film to anyone (even a police officer), unless he actually is under arrest -- a threat of arrest is not sufficient. 7) Even an actual police officer is not immune from suit for violating First-Amendment rights (18 U.S.C. sec. 242; 42 U.S.C.. secs. 1983, 1985). 8) Most courts have jurisdiction only over "cases" or "controversies" -- there must be an actual arrest, or a civil suit, before them for the court to defend your rights. So, show some courage, guys: The next time some self-appointed defender of the law threatens you with arrest for doing something perfectly legal, call his hand on it and tell him his alternative is to take a hike or face arrest for assault (you should call the cops, not arrest him yourself -- see above). BUT, do make certain you are on public land when you do this! I agree with your points, but let me sort of a devil's advocate. While many stations are railroad property, open to the public, the question whether stations owned by public transit authorities are public property in the sense of a public sidewalk or a public park has never been tested in court so each transit authority can determine whehter to allow photography from its stations' platforms. Currently METRA, Metro North, and now NJ Transit permit phtography from their stations' platforms, while SEPTA bans it, and MBTA requires a permit. While indivdual police officers or their jurisdictions may not be immune to law suits for violations of civil rights, it can be expensive to sue them, and from what I understand many lawyers are reluctant to take such cases. Further, such law suits are very expensive to pursue. Be careful what you say to a "rent-a-cop," even on public property, as many of them could be sworn police officers with arrest authority who are moonlighting for "rent-a-cop" agencies. It is still best to avoid confrontation over railraod photography with law enforcement as much as possible even if they are wrong. Also, watch out for vigilantee wannabees. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, April 29, 2006 9:18 PM In response to thisQUOTE: Originally posted by cspmo QUOTE: I was threatened with arrest by a Wackenhut security person Call the Wackenbutt office and tell them where ,& when this happen, that guard would probably get fired. Security can not arrest anyone all they can do is call the Police. many states have "armed" security laws which include the right to arrest, detain, and transport people to the jail or magistrate. Best thing to do is not argue as this security person could have those priviliges. Yes even though there are no Federal Laws, there could be local ordinances that could come into effect. Reply Edit bob@osd Member sinceFebruary 2006 51 posts Posted by bob@osd on Sunday, April 30, 2006 7:37 PM Just a thought,CNW6000. The engineer may have thought that you were trying to photograph him parked too close to a crossing. Particularly if he is on 1 of a 2 track line, he may be afraid that, if he is setting off the crossing gates, people may be convinced that his is the only train near that crossing. Someone may decide to go around the gates and get hit by another train that is hidden by his. The railroads have faced large lawsuits due to this. Reply 123 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Originally posted by dsktc Why are these weird times? Have we suspended the Constitution, Habeas Corpus and the rule of law? Dave You will make all those fine arguments in court. They wont be heard by the person who arrests you. And, these are weird times because terrorist activity is forefront in everyone's minds now,and a very easy excuse for just about everything involving trespassing. . I simply offer advice. Take it, or dont, live with your choice.
QUOTE: Originally posted by rkcartwright Originally posted by dsktc Why are these weird times? Have we suspended the Constitution, Habeas Corpus and the rule of law? Dave You will make all those fine arguments in court. They wont be heard by the person who arrests you. And, these are weird times because terrorist activity is forefront in everyone's minds now,and a very easy excuse for just about everything involving trespassing. . I simply offer advice. Take it, or dont, live with your choice. 23 17 46 11 Reply Hugh Jampton Member sinceSeptember 2003 From: Southern Region now, UK 820 posts Posted by Hugh Jampton on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 10:22 AM My advice: Stay away from Spain, even before the bombings train photography of any kind, even tryin to take a picture of the missus in a station brings a number of law enforcement officers running, all of them shouting; NO PHOTO!!! NO PHOTO!!, and don't even think of trying to take a picture of an actual train as they will quickly arrest you. Generally a lurker by natureBe AlertThe world needs more lerts.It's the 3rd rail that makes the difference. Reply germanium Member sinceDecember 2005 From: Hampshire, England 290 posts Posted by germanium on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 10:31 AM Putting a uniform on a half-wit doesn't make him any less of a half-wit, probably makes him more so. Reply trainboyH16-44 Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: Mile 7.5 Laggan Sub., Great White North 4,201 posts Posted by trainboyH16-44 on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 2:54 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by dananbeth I have taken the time to read evryone posts and i have just 1 simple thing to say. If you wanna take pictures of the trains and who doesnt??? come on over to the Rochelle trainpark and snap away!!! You can take all the shots you want hassle free. I did that once...took me a week to get there! Too bad there aren't more places where you can safely take pictures without any chance of harassment. I had a good day on Monday, I went railfanning for a few hours, and everybody was friendly and not a single person looked suspicious! Go here for my rail shots! http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=9296 Building the CPR Kootenay division in N scale, blog here: http://kootenaymodelrailway.wordpress.com/ Reply coldguy Member sinceAugust 2005 From: Milwaukee, WI 35 posts Posted by coldguy on Thursday, April 27, 2006 12:03 AM Certainly there is no law against taking pictures of trains, or anything else in a public setting. And a private security guard can't do much of anything besides look menacingly at you, unless you're on the private property they're protecting. But don't lose your mind over it. We are a civilized people, are we not. Don't let it ruin your day. But I have some words for many of you amateur lawyers. You sould take the advice of the few wise posters here who are urging you to respect law enforcement. Don't think that because you are able to qoute a few lines of the constitution that you are invincible. If a police officer thinks you are acting suspiciosly, they have probable cause to stop and question you. Be polite, stop taking pictures, and answer their questions. If they tell you to put away the camera, put it away. If they tell you to leave, then leave. Don't start a civil rights rally right then and there, because you will lose. If you're a jerk and argue with an officer, they can cite you for any number of misdemearors, most commonly, loitering. Get a little loud and you're disturbing the peace. Use profanities and you're disorderly. Flip them off or spit in their general direction and you've just assaulted a police officer. Put up a fight, and you're resisting arrest. You get where I'm going here? You don't know all the information about why that officer is there. There may have been a previous incident of vandalism or some other crime at the place where you happen to be, just taking pictures. You may have accidently wandered onto private property, and someone called. Do you really want to spend some time in a squad car, or holding cell, or get maced, or taserd, over some pictures? Exercise some common sense! Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, April 27, 2006 3:54 AM Respect law enforcement?! Respect them when they're wrong and ignorant of the law?! I submit we need to teach respect for the constitution and the rule of law to everyone, including those in law enforcement. Quoting Justice White in TERRY v. OHIO, 392 U.S. 1 (1968): http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=392&invol=1 "There is nothing in the Constitution which prevents a policeman from addressing questions to anyone on the streets. Absent special circumstances, the person approached may not be detained or frisked but may refuse to cooperate and go on his way. However, given the proper circumstances, such as those in this case, it seems to me the person may be briefly detained against his will while pertinent questions are directed to him. Of course, the person stopped is not obliged to answer, answers may not be compelled, and refusal to answer furnishes no basis for an arrest, although it may alert the officer to the need for continued observation." Dave QUOTE: Originally posted by coldguy But I have some words for many of you amateur lawyers. You sould take the advice of the few wise posters here who are urging you to respect law enforcement. Don't think that because you are able to qoute a few lines of the constitution that you are invincible. If a police officer thinks you are acting suspiciosly, they have probable cause to stop and question you. Be polite, stop taking pictures, and answer their questions. If they tell you to put away the camera, put it away. If they tell you to leave, then leave. Don't start a civil rights rally right then and there, because you will lose. If you're a jerk and argue with an officer, they can cite you for any number of misdemearors, most commonly, loitering. Get a little loud and you're disturbing the peace. Use profanities and you're disorderly. Flip them off or spit in their general direction and you've just assaulted a police officer. Put up a fight, and you're resisting arrest. You get where I'm going here? You don't know all the information about why that officer is there. There may have been a previous incident of vandalism or some other crime at the place where you happen to be, just taking pictures. You may have accidently wandered onto private property, and someone called. Do you really want to spend some time in a squad car, or holding cell, or get maced, or taserd, over some pictures? Exercise some common sense! Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, April 27, 2006 5:26 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Hugh Jampton My advice: Stay away from Spain, even before the bombings train photography of any kind, even tryin to take a picture of the missus in a station brings a number of law enforcement officers running, all of them shouting; NO PHOTO!!! NO PHOTO!!, and don't even think of trying to take a picture of an actual train as they will quickly arrest you. Interesting to hear that - may explain why Spain is poorly-covered by the internet rail photo sites. I've railfanned in France a few times, however not since 9/11. Before then you used to get odd looks but I guess they must be used to people taking photographs of the TGVs by now, and I never got hassled. It's not just trains either - if I take a photo of a ship or dock area now (another interest of mine) I take care to do so very quietly and without advertising my presence, also making sure that I'm stood in a public area. If anyone's about, the camera goes away. I've rather taken to using a camera phone - only 1 megapixel but after you learn how to use it you can get some pretty good shots, certainly good enough for modelling purposes. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, April 27, 2006 9:05 PM Unless they are real police or point a gun at me, I pretty much just ignore anyone who attempts to interrupt one of my favorite pastimes. And of course carry my "photographers rights"with me...... Reply Edit RudyRockvilleMD Member sinceSeptember 2001 From: US 1,015 posts Posted by RudyRockvilleMD on Friday, April 28, 2006 10:26 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Hugh Jampton My advice: Stay away from Spain, even before the bombings train photography of any kind, even tryin to take a picture of the missus in a station brings a number of law enforcement officers running, all of them shouting; NO PHOTO!!! NO PHOTO!!, and don't even think of trying to take a picture of an actual train as they will quickly arrest you. Hugh:I don't doubt your railroad photography experience in Spain so your advice is well taken, but I did not have any trouble photographing trains in stations in Spain in either of my trips in 1998 and 2002. I photographed RENFE's Talgo's Euromeds (broad gauge versions of Spain's AVE's) and freight trains from a platform in Tarragona right across the tracks from the railroad police in 1998 without any trouble. However, when I saw what I thought was a security guard on the platform I asked him in Spanish if it was ok to phtograph trains, and he told me "no" so I left; possibly he didn't understand my question or my Spanish. I photogrphed a few trains from public property in Tarragona without any problems after I left the station. I met an English speaking railfan on a platform of a suburban station south of Madrid in 2002, and I asked him what he knew about photographing trains from station platforms, and he told me he never had any problems. So when I got back to Puerta de Atocha in Madrid I photographed two AVE's from their platforms, and I left; again, with no problems even though there were some security guards walking around. I was lucky both times, but since the bombings in Madrid in 2004 I would not photograph trains anywhere in Spain, even from public property. When I visited Spain in 2002 I noticed the trains were all running in flat land so I had to conclude that the trains in Spain run mostly in the plains . Reply RudyRockvilleMD Member sinceSeptember 2001 From: US 1,015 posts Posted by RudyRockvilleMD on Friday, April 28, 2006 11:07 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by nobullchitbids Guys, the rules are simple: 1) The First Amendment remains the fundamental law of the land. 2) Unless clearly and unambiguously posted for genuine reasons of national security (e.g. the inside of an atom-bomb assembly plant), photographing anything from a public place is permissible, and no statute trumps the Constitution. 3) The railroad has the right to regulate activity on its own land. 4) Many stations are railroad property, even though open to the public. 5) Wackenhutt Security is a private security firm; in many states, its personnel can execute arrests; however, such an arrest is no different from any other citizen's arrest, and the executing individual, if a private person, does not enjoy any kind of judicial or quasi-judicial immunity (both he and the company can be sued for damages). 6) No one is required to turn over film to anyone (even a police officer), unless he actually is under arrest -- a threat of arrest is not sufficient. 7) Even an actual police officer is not immune from suit for violating First-Amendment rights (18 U.S.C. sec. 242; 42 U.S.C.. secs. 1983, 1985). 8) Most courts have jurisdiction only over "cases" or "controversies" -- there must be an actual arrest, or a civil suit, before them for the court to defend your rights. So, show some courage, guys: The next time some self-appointed defender of the law threatens you with arrest for doing something perfectly legal, call his hand on it and tell him his alternative is to take a hike or face arrest for assault (you should call the cops, not arrest him yourself -- see above). BUT, do make certain you are on public land when you do this! I agree with your points, but let me sort of a devil's advocate. While many stations are railroad property, open to the public, the question whether stations owned by public transit authorities are public property in the sense of a public sidewalk or a public park has never been tested in court so each transit authority can determine whehter to allow photography from its stations' platforms. Currently METRA, Metro North, and now NJ Transit permit phtography from their stations' platforms, while SEPTA bans it, and MBTA requires a permit. While indivdual police officers or their jurisdictions may not be immune to law suits for violations of civil rights, it can be expensive to sue them, and from what I understand many lawyers are reluctant to take such cases. Further, such law suits are very expensive to pursue. Be careful what you say to a "rent-a-cop," even on public property, as many of them could be sworn police officers with arrest authority who are moonlighting for "rent-a-cop" agencies. It is still best to avoid confrontation over railraod photography with law enforcement as much as possible even if they are wrong. Also, watch out for vigilantee wannabees. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, April 29, 2006 9:18 PM In response to thisQUOTE: Originally posted by cspmo QUOTE: I was threatened with arrest by a Wackenhut security person Call the Wackenbutt office and tell them where ,& when this happen, that guard would probably get fired. Security can not arrest anyone all they can do is call the Police. many states have "armed" security laws which include the right to arrest, detain, and transport people to the jail or magistrate. Best thing to do is not argue as this security person could have those priviliges. Yes even though there are no Federal Laws, there could be local ordinances that could come into effect. Reply Edit bob@osd Member sinceFebruary 2006 51 posts Posted by bob@osd on Sunday, April 30, 2006 7:37 PM Just a thought,CNW6000. The engineer may have thought that you were trying to photograph him parked too close to a crossing. Particularly if he is on 1 of a 2 track line, he may be afraid that, if he is setting off the crossing gates, people may be convinced that his is the only train near that crossing. Someone may decide to go around the gates and get hit by another train that is hidden by his. The railroads have faced large lawsuits due to this. Reply 123 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
23 17 46 11
QUOTE: Originally posted by dananbeth I have taken the time to read evryone posts and i have just 1 simple thing to say. If you wanna take pictures of the trains and who doesnt??? come on over to the Rochelle trainpark and snap away!!! You can take all the shots you want hassle free.
Go here for my rail shots! http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=9296
Building the CPR Kootenay division in N scale, blog here: http://kootenaymodelrailway.wordpress.com/
QUOTE: Originally posted by coldguy But I have some words for many of you amateur lawyers. You sould take the advice of the few wise posters here who are urging you to respect law enforcement. Don't think that because you are able to qoute a few lines of the constitution that you are invincible. If a police officer thinks you are acting suspiciosly, they have probable cause to stop and question you. Be polite, stop taking pictures, and answer their questions. If they tell you to put away the camera, put it away. If they tell you to leave, then leave. Don't start a civil rights rally right then and there, because you will lose. If you're a jerk and argue with an officer, they can cite you for any number of misdemearors, most commonly, loitering. Get a little loud and you're disturbing the peace. Use profanities and you're disorderly. Flip them off or spit in their general direction and you've just assaulted a police officer. Put up a fight, and you're resisting arrest. You get where I'm going here? You don't know all the information about why that officer is there. There may have been a previous incident of vandalism or some other crime at the place where you happen to be, just taking pictures. You may have accidently wandered onto private property, and someone called. Do you really want to spend some time in a squad car, or holding cell, or get maced, or taserd, over some pictures? Exercise some common sense!
QUOTE: Originally posted by Hugh Jampton My advice: Stay away from Spain, even before the bombings train photography of any kind, even tryin to take a picture of the missus in a station brings a number of law enforcement officers running, all of them shouting; NO PHOTO!!! NO PHOTO!!, and don't even think of trying to take a picture of an actual train as they will quickly arrest you.
QUOTE: Originally posted by nobullchitbids Guys, the rules are simple: 1) The First Amendment remains the fundamental law of the land. 2) Unless clearly and unambiguously posted for genuine reasons of national security (e.g. the inside of an atom-bomb assembly plant), photographing anything from a public place is permissible, and no statute trumps the Constitution. 3) The railroad has the right to regulate activity on its own land. 4) Many stations are railroad property, even though open to the public. 5) Wackenhutt Security is a private security firm; in many states, its personnel can execute arrests; however, such an arrest is no different from any other citizen's arrest, and the executing individual, if a private person, does not enjoy any kind of judicial or quasi-judicial immunity (both he and the company can be sued for damages). 6) No one is required to turn over film to anyone (even a police officer), unless he actually is under arrest -- a threat of arrest is not sufficient. 7) Even an actual police officer is not immune from suit for violating First-Amendment rights (18 U.S.C. sec. 242; 42 U.S.C.. secs. 1983, 1985). 8) Most courts have jurisdiction only over "cases" or "controversies" -- there must be an actual arrest, or a civil suit, before them for the court to defend your rights. So, show some courage, guys: The next time some self-appointed defender of the law threatens you with arrest for doing something perfectly legal, call his hand on it and tell him his alternative is to take a hike or face arrest for assault (you should call the cops, not arrest him yourself -- see above). BUT, do make certain you are on public land when you do this!
QUOTE: Originally posted by cspmo QUOTE: I was threatened with arrest by a Wackenhut security person Call the Wackenbutt office and tell them where ,& when this happen, that guard would probably get fired. Security can not arrest anyone all they can do is call the Police.
QUOTE: I was threatened with arrest by a Wackenhut security person
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