Ideas on railroad re-building

[mudchicken]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tunnelmtrfan

I think all the lines should be rebuilt and recommissioned. Particulary the CRIP, KC to Denver, granted the Kyle (Railamerica) owns the line but 25 MPH is not a very profitable gain without the further loss in profit for track condations. Also with all the ethonal plants being built, maybe there is a chance of raillines being rebuilt.

(1) UP bought Sandown to Belt Jcn [Denver East Belt Line] as a Denver Bypass and will go to work rehabbing it once the legal mess created by Colorado & Eastern(Gary Flanders et. al) is cleaned-up. This includes flattening an old hotel at old Stapleton.

(2) RailAmerica/Kyle got a physical plant that is in much better condition now than it was in the early 1980's-1990's. Much of it is 40 MPH now thanks to Roadmaster Van DerVeen and crew. East of Belleville (to KC via Clay Center) and Mahaska (to Omaha via Fairbury)is gone or out of service.

The old UP/KP has come full circle from near abandonment in 1990 to being a double track candidate within 10 years (transcon bypass & relief valve). As work on this line continues, Kyle gets UP detours on occasion from Salina to Limon. UP is spending a bunch of $$$ on the lines between Salina-Limon-Denver-Cheyenne. Looked lately?

[tunnelmtrfan]

I think all the lines should be rebuilt and recommissioned. Particulary the CRIP, KC to Denver, granted the Kyle (Railamerica) owns the line but 25 MPH is not a very profitable gain without the further loss in profit for track condations. Also with all the ethonal plants being built, maybe there is a chance of raillines being rebuilt.

[Anonymous]

Being a South Dakota boy, 2,4, and 1 get my vote. And as long as we're dreaming, let's open up Tennessee Pass again.

Choo-Choo-Wayne

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pgberkin

Yeah, I know...I thought there was some room here for whimsy.

Maybe you're on to something there. As the water isn't too deep there, perhaps a shallow tunnel would be in order? The view would be somewhat boring for the engineer, but none of those pesky crossings to worry about.[:)]

[Anonymous]

#8! The Erie was/is my all-time favorite line and of course is the only one here in my area that was torn up.

Mike Rapchak Jr.
Hammond, IN

[Anonymous]

Yeah, I know...I thought there was some room here for whimsy.

[Modelcar]

Yes, highway Rt. 1 was extended out to Key West after the Hurricane of the mid '30's destroyed much of the RR and it was not rebuilt. More recently most of the bridges have been replaced with new, and wider ones. Most of the old RR ones are still in place but disconnected.

[Anonymous]

For NKPgator.
I disagree with you that light rail is like cussing. Having spent 7 years on the board of directors of a large transit agency I have an insight to light rail vs heavy (freight and conventional passenger) rail. The railroads will not give up their ROW just because a transit agency wants to tear it up for light rail. After all the BNSF, UP, and others are in business to move freight and need their tracks to operate. What we bought was under utilized or out of service lines going to the center of a town. The metrics of rail service has changed in the last 100 years. No longer is there a rail line up every alley in metropolitan areas to serve warehouses, factories, etc. These have moved to the suburbs and most of the terminal railways have greatly diminished in size (length, not width). What remains is the lines of several independant rail lines that went to down town areas. These remain from before the merger craze in the last 25 years. Thanks to mergers much of this track is redundant as the merged lines are using the best line to get through the town. At one time there were 7 class 1s in Dallas. Now there are two. (There is a third, KCS, however it terminates here and does not cross the town) We managed to purchase the redundant lines for future conversion to light rail. By definition light rail typically only goes 10-15 miles from the center of town. Anything longer would call for commuter (heavy) rail. A transit agency is wise to buy these redundant lines when they are available. Even if your current plans do not call for light rail on a given corridor buy it anyway. Who knows how the transit patterns will change in 10-20 years. You NEVER will get it any cheaper and after it is built on forget reverting it back to rail service. Disused corridors typically go for 1/2 to 1 million per mile and typically are 100 feet wide. This is the optimum width to run a two track light rail system and still have room for a third line to handle any freight that a shortline may develop. Think of the cost to buy a 100 foor strip through any town. NOBODY's treasury is big enough to do this. So do not curse light rail. It is still 4' 8 1/2" wide and employs pobably more sophisticated signalling than a heavy rail line. Yes, the cars do not look like a Harriman coach but a train ride is a train ride.

As to cost to lay a track on an existing ROW figure on 1 million per mile. Forget rehabbing the old line. By this time the ties are rotton and the rail is usually too light to be useful in todays service. Call the junk man and hope he will remove it for tha salvage value. This investment is for a good high speed rail line without any signalling. Figure the same investment per mile for signalling and catenary if you electrify. Our total investment including ROW, trackwork, signalling, catenary, yards and cars averages 45 million per mile. Railroading is not for the faint at heart.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pgberkin

What about the Flagler line to Key West?

I think there's a highway built on top of it.[xx(]

[Anonymous]

What about the Flagler line to Key West?

[ValleyX]

Actually, I have read but can't document that the railroads, when built, were primarily interested in hauling freight until they discovered that they could make money hauling people. Maybe I read it on the 'net.

Another railroad that is still in place but unlikely to be resurrected is the LE&W/NKP/N&W/NS between Lima and Portland, IN. NS leased the portion west of Lima to the Indiana state line to R. J. Corman and actually sold them ten miles of it between Celina and St. Marys, OH. With the saturation of traffic that nearly paralyzes the former Wabash at times west of Fort Wayne, one has to wonder if todays' managers wonder what those people were thinking ten or twelve years ago.

[Modelcar]

AntiGates....Send me your email address {mine is on my bio}, and we'll fix you up with some Trail / rail shots.....Can't put them on here.

[Anonymous]

Finally I see a topic as far fetched as I like to dream. I've heard arguments and even done some curious digging on how one might try to open up an old rail line. I came up with a figure of roughly 1,000,000 dollars a mile no matter if the line was preexsisting or not. although when you want to try and pull a dream into reality ,being able to show it once was real helps. Me I was looking at the former LS&MS {NYC} that ran through my town. I researched and found this line's only real problem was Vanderbuilt underestimated the NKP and then diverted way too much funding away from the line until it basicly collapsed from lack of upkeep. Don't get me wrong, I am a locomotive in front ,caboose in back ,romantic railfan. But finding out this line was electrified and ran steeple cabs and trolly cars was an interesting fact to uncover, as well as the fact that the line did not survive on freight traffic, but passenger traffic!!!! And what is one of the biggest complaints of potentual rail passengers??? Trains don't really go anywere!!!
Lets not forget that most of the lines in question were not built for freight customers!! When these lines came into being was in an age before automoblies and super highways. Passengers were a big reason one town was connected to another by rail 100 years ago. I am one for seeing these lines returned..not for freight but passengers as they were originally intended for. Of course I have been a student of history enough to realize that when the freight railroads gave up their passenger business they lost a lot of public favor. I think they gave up too soon and why they are afraid to resume a potentually profitable business is beyond me....perhaps costs are a bit high to risk it.
Anyway, I believe that if some of these segments were relaid in light rail {why does that sound like cussing to me??} and the railroad actually does go were people commute to everyday then you have a good reason to restore any old right of way. I can see it happening....maybe not in my life time but one day there won't be any oil left at all anywere. and the wisdom of our for fathers cutting these paths to everywere will come back to light

[Modelcar]

Larry....I agree, I would like very much to see any Trail returned to it's original use....A railroad, if in fact the circumstances had changed to merrit for that to happen.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

LVJJJ....Larry, some of the bike riding people that came forward to help to establi***rails on abandoned RR ROW's have by their actions preserved the route of many former RR's that could possibly be used in the furture whereas that would not have been possible if they had not done so....I'm one of them and by the way, I don't drive a large SUV....Do drive a 3.0L automoblie {that accomplishes good mileage}, and a small pick up...{V6}.

Ummmm, have you got any pictures from the C&O biketrail?....I'd particilarly like to see those old bridges down town if you have any. [8)]

[chad thomas]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

I agree - all of them (more or less) - although in some cases it would probably be better to build new lines from scratch rather than resurrecting older ROW's from the late 1800's. My understanding is that those old RI ROW's weren't exactly "engineered" in a way that would make them useful today.

You also should have included some of the lesser known Western ex-railroads, like....

12. Tonopah & Tidewater - a good north south alignment that could have been added to down to LA/San Diego and up to the inland PNW. North south routes may be a better fit today than traditional east west routes.

13. Nevada Northern + UP's ex Twin Falls (ID) to Wells (NV) - same thing, a north south alignment that could be stretched farther to connect more logical terminals.

14. The Modoc line - once a somewhat viable alternative to UP's OSL routing for traffic between the PNW and UP's central corridor.

15. BNSF's Havre to Great Falls, Great Falls to Helena, and Helena to Butte segments - part of the erstwhile I-15 corridor between Alberta and LA. Too bad UP and BNSF can't cooperate more for such multi-carrier alignments.

There's probably more, but I want to point out that such rebuilds probably should not simply relay track on the entire old grade. Be better to do some realigments to avoid certain grades and such.

12. The Tonopah & Tidewater was one of three routes south of the area known as the Bullfrog mineing district. Dureing it's day it might have made sense but there is really nothing to justify it's existance today. It runs through some of the most desolate and unpopulated areas and was prone to flooding in the Amagosa canyon and Crucero areas and subject to long closures. For a north south route the Las Vegas & Tonopah would have made a more viable route as it would end in a major population center. Even the longest lasting route, the Carson & Colorado / SP Jawbone and the Mina branch could not retain enough traffic to justify itself. After the C & C quit, the rails retreated from Tonopah to Mina where a mineral reload existed for a while but eventually the Thorne - Mina segment was abandoned in favor of trucking minerals to Battle Mountain on the Overland route. The remainder of the Mina Branch exists basicly to serve the huge munitions depot in the Hawthorne area. Even that segment was in jeapordy in the early 90s and the depot was told to "use it or loose it" (by the ICC?) when the SP threatend to abandon most of the line.


13. The Wells branch of the UP was basicly a shortcut from the Pacific Northwest to the northern California markets for lumber products vs the extra 300-400 miles to Ogden and back. It would make little sense today as this traffic can run directly down the Cascades on home rails all the way.

As for the Nevada Northern, guess what. It looks like it is going to be rebuilt (most track still exists on this route). It will be used to haul coal to a couple power plant to be built in the Steptoe Valley north of Ely / McGill. The line was successfully repurchased from the LA DW&P recently and they have one last legal hurdle to overcome and it looks like that will happen soon. If I recall, service could begin within a couple of years. And of course the Nevada Northern Musem will be able to run the whole line. They will also rebuild the segment between Shafter (ex WP connection) and Cobre (ex SP connection) for the Museum trains even though the coal trains will likely not use this segment. But as far as the NN being a through route that's not going to happen. Any route to the south would have many treacherous mountan crossings to deal with. Even the existing line up to Ruth is STEEP and windy.


14. I might be a bit biased on this one, as I lived on the Modoc for many years, but I think this abandonment was a mistake. Yes, Much of the traffic on the Modoc could just as easily be rerouted to the Oregon line, but this line was a valuable bypass that prooved it's worth several times when Donner or the Feather River routes were shut down due to adverse weather / landslides that are a frequent problem in winter. It could also have been a viable route option for BNSFs Overland traffic in and out of central / southern Oregon as opposed to sending it north through the funnel.


Of course I would love to see all these lines back in action but the reality is I don't think I will see any of them rebuilt in my lifetime (Nevada Northern excepted).


The only abandoned routes (out west) I see being restored in my lifetime are the Milwakee Road's Cascade crossing (Snowqualamy ?sp? Pass) and mabee back to eastern Washington. And the Pheonix line to Wellington (I belive rails are intact there). But only time will tell.[;)][8D]

[Anonymous]

as a scenic RR, the old Chehalis Western from Chehalis, Washington (on I-5) to South Bend, Washington, on Willapa Bay, would be fantastic, particularly if a good small stem engine were available to haul the train. Love the bridge at Raymond across the Willapa River what a scenic great!!!

[LVJJJ]

modelcar, since it sounds like you would not be opposed to re-opening the r/w that you ride on, I am not referring to you. It's true that the rails-to-trails movement has preserved many rr-rights-of-way (during my tenure as a planner, helped preserve railtrails here in NW Washington), however many of those who support the trails will allow re-opening the rails only over their dead bodies (I hope they'll make good ballast). I'm not a casual observer of government regulations & environmental extremists, as I worked for Whatcom County Planning for over 20 years as a zoning and subdivision administrator ('73 to '00). I sadly watched as the art of compromise (regarding planning and zoning) disappeared in a cloud of environmental extremism. The hypocracy of the environmental elite who promote the green agenda while tooling around in their SUV's, drives me nuts, cause I was in the middle of the fight for over 2 decades and I hate dishonesty. Now I am a consultant for the overburdened, tax-paying, land owner who finds his property held hostage because the greenies (i.e. anti-capitalists who are heavily invested in the stock market) have been able to win over the legislatures and courts. Hopefully, since we are both on the Trains website, we are still on the same page. Larry in Blaine.

[Modelcar]

LVJJJ....Larry, some of the bike riding people that came forward to help to establi***rails on abandoned RR ROW's have by their actions preserved the route of many former RR's that could possibly be used in the furture whereas that would not have been possible if they had not done so....I'm one of them and by the way, I don't drive a large SUV....Do drive a 3.0L automoblie {that accomplishes good mileage}, and a small pick up...{V6}.

[Anonymous]

Although it's not included in your above list, I would like to see the branch of the
Erie RR from Salamanca to Dunkirk, NY, be rebuilt. This was the first railroad to
reach the Great Lakes from the East (1853), and contributed greatly to the development
of the area, although Buffalo eventually stole their thunder. Since this would be solely
for the benefit of us historical nuts, chances of it happening is from none to nil.

[LVJJJ]

Follow the money. When it becomes profitable, all kinds of rail lines will open and re-open. Nothing happens in this world unless and until there is money to be made. When it becomes too expensive to run trucks on deteriorating hiways, shippers will turn to the next cheapest alternative, railroads. Thank God railroad companies aren't afraid to run over all of the bicycle-riding (and SUV driving hypocritical) environmentalists that might be lying in their way. Larry (formerly in Las Vegas now in Blaine, WA).

[Anonymous]

You bet I would like to see Tennessee Pass reopened.
For that matter, there will come a time in the not too distant future when most all rail lines will be reconsidered for reopening or the relaying of rail as the price of operating a private vehicle will be prohibitive.
Even busses will not be energy efficient enough .

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

In a lot of cases single track lines exist on what were double-track rights-of-way (either prepared for double and never installed or removed during downsizing), and double-tracking existing lines may be the answer.

Excellant point.

I am often impressed to see relics of instances where forward thinking railroads secured the right of way needed and made preliminary preparations for future expansion. Often as long as a hundred years ago.

We have a number of bridges here that despite being dual track, one can see that the builder designed the abutments to be ready made to accept additional parallel spans.

And I suspect that preexisting infastructure such as that, weighs into the decision on which routes will be kept, and which are expendable.

[Modelcar]

I was just thinking of the WM when the last post mentioned of it.....And above Dave mentions of the double track ROW's still in existence above and probably many available to build on if necessary. My thoughts go over to the WM ROW through southern Pennsylvania...Meyersdale, Garrett, etc....The line for the most part I believe was single track but I note bridges {at least some of them were constructed for double track}...I cite the example of the massive Salisbury Viaduct near Meryersdale. A trestle about 1500 ft long was designed and built for double track but the 2nd track was never installed. That massive trestle is now part of the east / west trail through that area and has a concrete walkway on top of it with steel framed and wire fencing on it's sides....Really a great place to look around from on top of it...{roughly 80 or so ft. high, maybe more}. The ex B&O east / west line is right under it and heading for the mountain crossing east of Meyersdale and Sand Patch.

[Anonymous]

Think about dreaming BIG! Jay Gould, when he built his Wabash Pittsburgh Terminal Railroad, had vast plans. ROW was acquired to permit four tracks. It was graded and most bridges/tunnels were built for double track. And lastly only a single track was laid. Talk about going downhill in a big way.

[rails39]

With the senitiment in Washington DC to move people will never happen

Rails39

[Anonymous]

The ones mentioned are great choices to be sure, but I would also have to add the Old Western Maryland Railway Thomas subdivision from Thomas to Elkins. Now that friends, was railroading. The Black Fork grade was something to behold, especially in the Autumn. I should know since I worked there many years ago.
R K Shamer, former WM ATM.

[Anonymous]

I have always been of the opinion that abandonment of the B&O Parkersburg line was a colossal mistake--especially since portions of the route had undergone considerable work to improve clearances. Some cost study must have "proved" this was a good economic move (thru trains had to be drastically rerouted!) CSX probably wishes they had that capacity/route today.

[daveklepper]

In a lot of cases single track lines exist on what were double-track rights-of-way (either prepared for double and never installed or removed during downsizing), and double-tracking existing lines may be the answer.

[Modelcar]

...You mean my memory may have served me correct on that 759...Wow...