Should train consists be posted on the internet?

[pmsteamman]

I was on another railfan website and there were some people posting the entire train consist of a certian shortline (hazmat and all). When I posted how I thought this was not a good idea I was totaly dragged through the mud, saying "Its my right to post this you are just some crusty ol rail who hates railfans" (I dont think 30 is crusty, and I dont hate railfans). I have never seen this happen on here and was just wondering how everybody else felt.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

I don't see how it would be too much of a problem since the material was probably dated by the time it got posted. Any hazmat cars are going to be visibly placarded anyway so posting a consist isn't a safety issue.

[chad thomas]

I see nothing wrong with that, Like Paul said hazmat cars have like 4 big placards indicateing what's in them.

[oltmannd]

If he's just copying down car init and numbers as the train goes by, no problem. If he's getting them "unofficially" from a RR wheel report or elsewhere, then it's a problem.

[Modelcar]

....My thoughts on subject is: It would be inappropriate. Why subject some questionable people {who knows who is monitoring}, to this info....and who knows what some may do with it.

[tree68]

Anyone standing lineside can get the same info, so that's not a security issue. Why anyone would care about the full consist of a train escapes me, unless they were into tracking cars (were was XYZX 123456 yesterday?).

As for the response when challenged, it was very typical of someone who isn't even sure themselves that what they are doing is appropriate - deflect the blame elsewhere, especially back on the questioner.

[trainfan1221]

On a somewhat related note, a while back, Trains magazine did an article following a UP train on its journey from Council Bluffs to I forget where. But they had a fold out with the contents and destination of each car on the train, and kept tabs on its journey across the system. I found this to be one of the most interesting things they had ever done, and would love to see another story like that again sometime.

[Junctionfan]

Stenciling will also indicate what is in the certain cars so it doesn't really matter often who is watching otherwise there would no stencilling.

[vsmith]

Well lets see,

Hi there! I'm Mr Terroroist, instead of having to try and observe cargo movement where I might attract attention to myself I would just love to able to check Mr Internet to see when that nice train carrying all that loveley chlorine will be rolling past that cute little elementary school in the middle of the city so I can ram a rented truck full of homemade explosives into it a grade crossing and kill a few thousand infidel American dogs and go straght to my 40 virgins in heaven. Thank you Thank You Thank You, You just made my job sooooo much easier by posting all this lovely data where any nutjob like me can access it.

Does the above scenerio sound good ?

2 words:
BAD IDEA

[pmsteamman]

Not just Mr. Terroroist but every other stupid moron who has a grudge against the Govt or just maybe the railroad itself, and I agree anybody standing trackside can read whats in there but there is no need to advertise it. I post this because I dont want to be the engineer of the train who gets hit by that rented truck. I have 2 daughters and a son on the way that I just LOVE to come home to every night (and my wife when she is not crabby).

[oltmannd]

How does knowing where a car WAS tell anybody anything about where the care WILL BE and WHEN?

And, we're not even talking about timely universal car tracing that the shippers have, we're talking about random, coccasional consist posting. Somebody needs to explain exactly in detail how a bad guy looking at a consist posting could plot something bad before I'll believe it's a problem.

A bad guy, all by himself, with an implement of destruction, a map, a rent-a-car and a pair of eyeballs could do plenty of damage involving a rail shipment without needing to check any random consist postings on the internet.

How does the threat of random consist postings compare to the info available to terrorists from Google maps arial photos of urban areas?

[Anonymous]

Well, I found something along these same lines online not too long ago... there is a website that you can look up the location of every freight car (including haz-mat cars) on the Belt Railway of Chicago system.... the odd part is that it was on the BRC's public website...

http://4.BeltRailway.com/indinv.html

(All one has to do is enter the three digit code of a particular industry from the list on http://www.BeltRailway.com/industries.html).

So seems like rail security is not just an issue of rail fans, but maybe also some railroads too disclosing more than they should... [B)]

[Anonymous]

I really don't see any point in knowing what's on a train anyway unless you're a shipper or the railroad itself. People are getting carried away, yikes.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

Well lets see,

Hi there! I'm Mr Terroroist, instead of having to try and observe cargo movement where I might attract attention to myself I would just love to able to check Mr Internet to see when that nice train carrying all that loveley chlorine will be rolling past that cute little elementary school in the middle of the city so I can ram a rented truck full of homemade explosives into it a grade crossing and kill a few thousand infidel American dogs and go straght to my 40 virgins in heaven. Thank you Thank You Thank You, You just made my job sooooo much easier by posting all this lovely data where any nutjob like me can access it.

Does the above scenerio sound good ?

2 words:
BAD IDEA

Not trying to pick a fight here but, I think the right wing has done a fine job of scaring you to death.

I work in the airline business and I am here to tell you that if "they" want to do it again, they will. All of the lame security measures put in place will only catch the stupid. There are as many gaps in airport security today as there was on 9/11. Just different gaps. The determined will figure a way around the gaps. I hardly believe they would rely on internet information for planning a plot. These guys are a little more disciplined than that.

I, on the other hand might find that info useful since I am in the process of building a large prototypical model railroad. I observe the trains in my area, taking note of what types of cars are in tow so I can use that knowlege to operate my MRR more prototypically.

Like many have said, all you need to do is follow any train and you can get this info.

Just because it is not something you are interested in, doesn't mean it is of no value. It just means it is of no value to you.

Seems like everyone has forgotten why our forefathers came to this land.

I don't think a psudo manifest for a train that has been long gone is much of a threat to national security.

my .02. Let the thrashing begin.

Mike in Tulsa
BNSF Cherokee Sub

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by drfizzix

Well, I found something along these same lines online not too long ago... there is a website that you can look up the location of every freight car (including haz-mat cars) on the Belt Railway of Chicago system.... the odd part is that it was on the BRC's public website...

http://4.BeltRailway.com/indinv.html

(All one has to do is enter the three digit code of a particular industry from the list on http://www.BeltRailway.com/industries.html).

So seems like rail security is not just an issue of rail fans, but maybe also some railroads too disclosing more than they should... [B)]

How is the info the BRC provides "disclosing more than they should"? Specifically, how would a bad guy use the knowledge that specific car with a specific commodity was spotted on at a specific industry at a specific date and time to do anything evil?

[coborn35]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mike Rehling

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

Well lets see,

Hi there! I'm Mr Terroroist, instead of having to try and observe cargo movement where I might attract attention to myself I would just love to able to check Mr Internet to see when that nice train carrying all that loveley chlorine will be rolling past that cute little elementary school in the middle of the city so I can ram a rented truck full of homemade explosives into it a grade crossing and kill a few thousand infidel American dogs and go straght to my 40 virgins in heaven. Thank you Thank You Thank You, You just made my job sooooo much easier by posting all this lovely data where any nutjob like me can access it.

Does the above scenerio sound good ?

2 words:
BAD IDEA

Not trying to pick a fight here but, I think the right wing has done a fine job of scaring you to death.

I work in the airline business and I am here to tell you that if "they" want to do it again, they will. All of the lame security measures put in place will only catch the stupid. There are as many gaps in airport security today as there was on 9/11. Just different gaps. The determined will figure a way around the gaps. I hardly believe they would rely on internet information for planning a plot. These guys are a little more disciplined than that.

I, on the other hand might find that info useful since I am in the process of building a large prototypical model railroad. I observe the trains in my area, taking note of what types of cars are in tow so I can use that knowlege to operate my MRR more prototypically.

Like many have said, all you need to do is follow any train and you can get this info.

Just because it is not something you are interested in, doesn't mean it is of no value. It just means it is of no value to you.

Seems like everyone has forgotten why our forefathers came to this land.

I don't think a psudo manifest for a train that has been long gone is much of a threat to national security.

my .02. Let the thrashing begin.

Mike in Tulsa
BNSF Cherokee Sub

If they are smart enough, well, Im not gonna say it online, god-forbid I give some nutjob idea's, but there are way.

As dar as you MR goes, you dont need all that info to run prototypically.

[oltmannd]

Knowing where a particular car was at some particular time is LESS useful to a bad guy than his eyeballs. It is most certainly NOT unpatriotic to post "I saw NS 123456 at West Podunk yard last Saturday".

Depending on how realistic a modler is trying to get, he could need way more than just some random consists.

[jsoderq]

The shortline near where I live has specifically requested people not to do this, and since it jas continued , they are now getting really nasty about people on their property. "DON'T POKE AT THE BEAR!!!!"

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd

QUOTE: Originally posted by drfizzix

Well, I found something along these same lines online not too long ago... there is a website that you can look up the location of every freight car (including haz-mat cars) on the Belt Railway of Chicago system.... the odd part is that it was on the BRC's public website...

http://4.BeltRailway.com/indinv.html

(All one has to do is enter the three digit code of a particular industry from the list on http://www.BeltRailway.com/industries.html).

So seems like rail security is not just an issue of rail fans, but maybe also some railroads too disclosing more than they should... [B)]

How is the info the BRC provides "disclosing more than they should"? Specifically, how would a bad guy use the knowledge that specific car with a specific commodity was spotted on at a specific industry at a specific date and time to do anything evil?

I was simply pointing out that for those that think posting train consist information online poses a security risk, that rail fans are not entirely to blame here, but some railroads themselves do effectively the same thing.

My personal opinion is that this issue is overrated anyway, since as several have already pointed out, any terrorist wanting to use certain railroad cars to execute their plan, can just as easily get the same information simply from watching trains trackside.

[tree68]

Not all that long ago I was trackside, with camera and notebook, several times, to gather information on commodities normally seen on the line that runs through our area. Why? I'm preparing HO railroad cars for use on the Incident Command simulator used to train emergency first responders in our area...

[wallyworld]

The short answer is no. Politics aside ( which are a dead end anyway), an once of prevention is better than a pound of cure. No paranoia intended. I am not concerned about the Taliban randomly firing RPG's at the subject of our favorite topic,but if you want to have the local constables remove your hard drive and question you on railroad topics-be my guest. There was a guy in Nevada who picked up an odd black box by the side of the road and out of curiousity picked it up and brought it home. The FBI tore his trailer apart removed his hard drive etc. It turned out the hapless individual had picked up a federal proximity detector and it led the g-men right to his home. Have fun.