An intelligent topic about RR crossings

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MP57313

In the Los Angeles area, the new MTA Gold Line opens this weekend, and most of it follows a former Santa Fe route from LA to Pasadena. Most of the crossings have four-quadrant gates and even pedestrian gates. But what do you bet we'll see a fatal accident in the not-too-distant future. Such an accident will likely be caused by the dare-devil/thrill-seeker approach to life that some people have...

There probably will be some sort of accident. I don't think that there is any crossing anywhere in the world that is 100% idiot-proof. There are a great deal of the daredevils and thrill-seekers out there. I once heard about a guy from a town near where I live whose idea of fun was to stand in the middle of the track as a train was coming and, like a moron, happily wave at the crew on board. He would then jump away at the very last second as the train got right to him. The last time he tried this he had been drinking...I don't think I need to say the outcome. If you think that guy was stupid I also heard of a pedestrian who was so impatient while waiting for a train that he actually tried to craw under the moving train to get to the other side. It's not just the motorists we have to worry about.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MP57313

In the Los Angeles area, the new MTA Gold Line opens this weekend, and most of it follows a former Santa Fe route from LA to Pasadena. Most of the crossings have four-quadrant gates and even pedestrian gates. But what do you bet we'll see a fatal accident in the not-too-distant future. Such an accident will likely be caused by the dare-devil/thrill-seeker approach to life that some people have...

There probably will be some sort of accident. I don't think that there is any crossing anywhere in the world that is 100% idiot-proof. There are a great deal of the daredevils and thrill-seekers out there. I once heard about a guy from a town near where I live whose idea of fun was to stand in the middle of the track as a train was coming and, like a moron, happily wave at the crew on board. He would then jump away at the very last second as the train got right to him. The last time he tried this he had been drinking...I don't think I need to say the outcome. If you think that guy was stupid I also heard of a pedestrian who was so impatient while waiting for a train that he actually tried to craw under the moving train to get to the other side. It's not just the motorists we have to worry about.

[mudchicken]

If they still have the idiotic "no whistle" rule enforced by the city through there and people still climb all over the Alhambra viaduct like they did in the 90's , it's a slam dunk.....

[mudchicken]

If they still have the idiotic "no whistle" rule enforced by the city through there and people still climb all over the Alhambra viaduct like they did in the 90's , it's a slam dunk.....

[MP57313]

In the Los Angeles area, the new MTA Gold Line opens this weekend, and most of it follows a former Santa Fe route from LA to Pasadena. Most of the crossings have four-quadrant gates and even pedestrian gates. But what do you bet we'll see a fatal accident in the not-too-distant future. Such an accident will likely be caused by the dare-devil/thrill-seeker approach to life that some people have...

[MP57313]

In the Los Angeles area, the new MTA Gold Line opens this weekend, and most of it follows a former Santa Fe route from LA to Pasadena. Most of the crossings have four-quadrant gates and even pedestrian gates. But what do you bet we'll see a fatal accident in the not-too-distant future. Such an accident will likely be caused by the dare-devil/thrill-seeker approach to life that some people have...

[dfandrews]

May I suggest additional reading: N.Y. Times News Service article from last year some time, by Erica Goode, "STUDY FINDS INCOMPETENT PEOPLE TOO INCOMPETENT TO REALIZE TRUTH."

[dfandrews]

May I suggest additional reading: N.Y. Times News Service article from last year some time, by Erica Goode, "STUDY FINDS INCOMPETENT PEOPLE TOO INCOMPETENT TO REALIZE TRUTH."

[kenneo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by traisessive1

I hope your happy...........you killed yourself and caused haslte for many others.

The problem, is that they usually kill several innocent people along with them. Often children. If it were not for the fact that the driver is dead, he/she would be brought up on one or another of various murder charges (probably some form of vehicular homicide). What they are really doing amounts - in legal terms - to murder/suicide.

The other thing, is, that not all of these accidents are negligence. This winter, near Madras, Oregon, a family was on the way from their ranch to school. Dad was at work at his perimedic's job. On the way, the family drove a road that dipped off a small ledge to the railroad tracks. Road is covered with ice with a layer of water on top. They tried stopping more than a quarter mile away, slowing from their raod speed of less than 20 mph. But they did not get stopped prior to the top of the "hill" and slid down the road for 1/4 mile to finally stop underneath the moving train. Dad was on the rescue crew.

So, when we are talking on this subject, we should realize that a few of these messes are not stupid jerk caused. Everybody involved really did try to do it right.

[kenneo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by traisessive1

I hope your happy...........you killed yourself and caused haslte for many others.

The problem, is that they usually kill several innocent people along with them. Often children. If it were not for the fact that the driver is dead, he/she would be brought up on one or another of various murder charges (probably some form of vehicular homicide). What they are really doing amounts - in legal terms - to murder/suicide.

The other thing, is, that not all of these accidents are negligence. This winter, near Madras, Oregon, a family was on the way from their ranch to school. Dad was at work at his perimedic's job. On the way, the family drove a road that dipped off a small ledge to the railroad tracks. Road is covered with ice with a layer of water on top. They tried stopping more than a quarter mile away, slowing from their raod speed of less than 20 mph. But they did not get stopped prior to the top of the "hill" and slid down the road for 1/4 mile to finally stop underneath the moving train. Dad was on the rescue crew.

So, when we are talking on this subject, we should realize that a few of these messes are not stupid jerk caused. Everybody involved really did try to do it right.

[traisessive1]

There isnt much you can do anymore to stop people.
Where i live i watched a guy walk infront of a 4 car passenger train going 85mph with about 4 seconds to spare. Well if he waited an extra 4 seconds the engineer wouldnt have had to have that heart attack (figure of speech) for nothing.

The way I see it is people are morons in general and only think of themselves, sooo.......if they want to cause other people greif and pain for their own stupidity go ahead, die, I hope your happy...........you killed yourself and caused haslte for many others.

[traisessive1]

There isnt much you can do anymore to stop people.
Where i live i watched a guy walk infront of a 4 car passenger train going 85mph with about 4 seconds to spare. Well if he waited an extra 4 seconds the engineer wouldnt have had to have that heart attack (figure of speech) for nothing.

The way I see it is people are morons in general and only think of themselves, sooo.......if they want to cause other people greif and pain for their own stupidity go ahead, die, I hope your happy...........you killed yourself and caused haslte for many others.

[kenneo]

It must be that I am really ancient, or something, but I can remember when only the most busy crossing had flashing lights. There were a few with wig-wags. These were improtant but less busy. The rest had crossbucks and the private crossings had nothing. Those special few with flashing lights or wig-wags had control circuits that duplicated ABS systems, just that they were restricted to the individual crossing. Problem was, a train would get into the circuit and stop or there would be a fault in the circuit and the lights and wig-wags would continue to flash and wig and wag. I still hear drivers say "There's no train comming. The're just broke. Drive around them." The other main attitude or habit is people being in a hurry and not wanting to even wait a few seconds.

The Santa Fe had signs in Arizona and New Mexico that had wording to this effect -- "It takes the train 20 seconds to clear this crossing whether you're in front of the train or not."

I have been told that the only reason that crossing gates are built as they are is to permit emergency vehicles to pass through. I can not prove or disprove that statement.

The problem with the "old" type of controll system for lights is that it is "non-adjustable" and they turn on when the train is at a specific point in its approach to the crossing. The train could be "fast", the setting for the crossing, or "slow" and take "forever" getting to the crossing. People expect the latter and have a tendency to run the lights/gates.

There is a fix for that problem, but it is nearly as expensive as the crossing itself, and they are called predictors. A predictor is a computer controlled device that "sits on top" of the older circuits and adjusts the action of the lights, bells and gates to reflect the speed of the approaching train. It does this by sending a coded signal through the "original" approach circuit the signal is returned to it in such a way that the computer can determine approach speed and then properly operate the warning devices.

How sensitive are predictors? Well, they can tell if the train is stopped. They can tell if a train is in the circuit or not. They know if a train reverses direction within the circuit. They can determine the speed from zero to (you set the limit).

I would think that universal use of the predictor system, a red-yellow-green traffic light and a red-light camera would go a very long ways to control this situation. The only "sure cure", of course, would be total security barriers around railroad property and absolutely no grade crossings, niether of which is practical at this time.

[kenneo]

It must be that I am really ancient, or something, but I can remember when only the most busy crossing had flashing lights. There were a few with wig-wags. These were improtant but less busy. The rest had crossbucks and the private crossings had nothing. Those special few with flashing lights or wig-wags had control circuits that duplicated ABS systems, just that they were restricted to the individual crossing. Problem was, a train would get into the circuit and stop or there would be a fault in the circuit and the lights and wig-wags would continue to flash and wig and wag. I still hear drivers say "There's no train comming. The're just broke. Drive around them." The other main attitude or habit is people being in a hurry and not wanting to even wait a few seconds.

The Santa Fe had signs in Arizona and New Mexico that had wording to this effect -- "It takes the train 20 seconds to clear this crossing whether you're in front of the train or not."

I have been told that the only reason that crossing gates are built as they are is to permit emergency vehicles to pass through. I can not prove or disprove that statement.

The problem with the "old" type of controll system for lights is that it is "non-adjustable" and they turn on when the train is at a specific point in its approach to the crossing. The train could be "fast", the setting for the crossing, or "slow" and take "forever" getting to the crossing. People expect the latter and have a tendency to run the lights/gates.

There is a fix for that problem, but it is nearly as expensive as the crossing itself, and they are called predictors. A predictor is a computer controlled device that "sits on top" of the older circuits and adjusts the action of the lights, bells and gates to reflect the speed of the approaching train. It does this by sending a coded signal through the "original" approach circuit the signal is returned to it in such a way that the computer can determine approach speed and then properly operate the warning devices.

How sensitive are predictors? Well, they can tell if the train is stopped. They can tell if a train is in the circuit or not. They know if a train reverses direction within the circuit. They can determine the speed from zero to (you set the limit).

I would think that universal use of the predictor system, a red-yellow-green traffic light and a red-light camera would go a very long ways to control this situation. The only "sure cure", of course, would be total security barriers around railroad property and absolutely no grade crossings, niether of which is practical at this time.

[dekemd]

My personal recommendation would be a standard traffic light. Have it change to yellow at 30 seconds, then red at 25 seconds before the train came across the crossing. Most people who run red lights do so in the first five seconds after the light turns red. I see very few people run a red light after it's been red for a while. This would still give 20 seconds before the train reached the crossing. It shouldn't be anymore expensive than the standard flashing lights and gates.

Of course, no one has ever drove around the gates at a crossing when I was sitting nearby in my patrol car. Imagine that.[:D]

[dekemd]

My personal recommendation would be a standard traffic light. Have it change to yellow at 30 seconds, then red at 25 seconds before the train came across the crossing. Most people who run red lights do so in the first five seconds after the light turns red. I see very few people run a red light after it's been red for a while. This would still give 20 seconds before the train reached the crossing. It shouldn't be anymore expensive than the standard flashing lights and gates.

Of course, no one has ever drove around the gates at a crossing when I was sitting nearby in my patrol car. Imagine that.[:D]

[ironhorseman]

To me the most inconvinient part of the crossing is how bumpy it gets.

In regards to camaras at crossings: this is already done in some places.

In regards to barriers: they may be designed to keep people out as well as being trapped in. To solve this put the barrier 50' out from the rails.

It's amazing we can stop an aircraft landing on a carrier using ropes and nets, but motorists are so determined to get through they'll tear through nets. I'm sure nothing short of a reinforced steel wall that raises from underground twice as wide as the road will stop some people.

A more practical idea would be to put up stop signs and traffic lights, but we all know how people like to run red lights and breeze through stop signs. Heck, people don't even stop for ambulances and fire trucks anymore.

You'll have to me more creative than barricades, bells, and lights. Maybe a "car wash while u wait" will keep people stopped at crossings.

Or maybe there can be a robotic arm that pops out of the ground to grab the car and place it in the back of the line to wait.

Or an electomagnetic shield can be put in to disable the automobile if it gets to close to the crossing.

[ironhorseman]

To me the most inconvinient part of the crossing is how bumpy it gets.

In regards to camaras at crossings: this is already done in some places.

In regards to barriers: they may be designed to keep people out as well as being trapped in. To solve this put the barrier 50' out from the rails.

It's amazing we can stop an aircraft landing on a carrier using ropes and nets, but motorists are so determined to get through they'll tear through nets. I'm sure nothing short of a reinforced steel wall that raises from underground twice as wide as the road will stop some people.

A more practical idea would be to put up stop signs and traffic lights, but we all know how people like to run red lights and breeze through stop signs. Heck, people don't even stop for ambulances and fire trucks anymore.

You'll have to me more creative than barricades, bells, and lights. Maybe a "car wash while u wait" will keep people stopped at crossings.

Or maybe there can be a robotic arm that pops out of the ground to grab the car and place it in the back of the line to wait.

Or an electomagnetic shield can be put in to disable the automobile if it gets to close to the crossing.

[oltmannd]

>>Why not install cameras that are activated when the crossing gates/lights are activated, to take pictures of the license plates of the the cars that run through/around the crossing gate arms? <<

Yes. Local governments ought to do this and pay for it!

[oltmannd]

>>Why not install cameras that are activated when the crossing gates/lights are activated, to take pictures of the license plates of the the cars that run through/around the crossing gate arms? <<

Yes. Local governments ought to do this and pay for it!

[SALfan]

Why not install cameras that are activated when the crossing gates/lights are activated, to take pictures of the license plates of the the cars that run through/around the crossing gate arms? There are a lot of red-light cameras in my area that capture the license plates of red-light runners and automatically generate a traffic ticket that is mailed to the vehicle owner; they have been very effective in decreasing the number of accidents at traffic lights.

[SALfan]

Why not install cameras that are activated when the crossing gates/lights are activated, to take pictures of the license plates of the the cars that run through/around the crossing gate arms? There are a lot of red-light cameras in my area that capture the license plates of red-light runners and automatically generate a traffic ticket that is mailed to the vehicle owner; they have been very effective in decreasing the number of accidents at traffic lights.

[wabash1]

Ed

the swing arm system isnt new here they been here for sometime and the other type crossing we have is one that when you hit it it dont give right away it takes alittle to move it then you shear the pin . the maintainer comes out and puts a pin back in and off he goes.( maybe a little more time than that but close) .

the other suggestion i have for crossing is that the crews are ask to report all close calls at crossings. but the cops wont ticket anyone we report cause they didnt see it happen. its a simple process but a good one is to deputies the crews. then when they report a driver on a close call. they can report to court and testify. after these people haft to start paying for these high fines maybe they will think twice. it wont stop them but it may slow them down.

[wabash1]

Ed

the swing arm system isnt new here they been here for sometime and the other type crossing we have is one that when you hit it it dont give right away it takes alittle to move it then you shear the pin . the maintainer comes out and puts a pin back in and off he goes.( maybe a little more time than that but close) .

the other suggestion i have for crossing is that the crews are ask to report all close calls at crossings. but the cops wont ticket anyone we report cause they didnt see it happen. its a simple process but a good one is to deputies the crews. then when they report a driver on a close call. they can report to court and testify. after these people haft to start paying for these high fines maybe they will think twice. it wont stop them but it may slow them down.

[Anonymous]

I think that part of the problem is that drivers are too stupid these days to recognize what a flashing railroad signal means. We had a crossing in a previous town that I worked for that had standard red-yellow-green traffic signals at a crossing in addition to the standard RR flashers. To my observations this combination was more effective as there is no question in the mind of drivers what each color means and what action is expected.

One action I was able to do that was effective was to suppliment standard cross bucks on unsignaled crossings with stop signs. It to seemed effective since the charge was changed from an un-enforceable running a cross buck in front of a train to running a stop sign- which can be written any time- not just when a train is in the area. In my experience people started to respect them more (at least as much as they do stop signs else where.)

If I had a suggestion now it would be to phase out the standard RR flasher and replece it with standard MUTCD traffic signals- flasing yellow with no train in circiut and solid red when a train in in the circiut.

[Anonymous]

I think that part of the problem is that drivers are too stupid these days to recognize what a flashing railroad signal means. We had a crossing in a previous town that I worked for that had standard red-yellow-green traffic signals at a crossing in addition to the standard RR flashers. To my observations this combination was more effective as there is no question in the mind of drivers what each color means and what action is expected.

One action I was able to do that was effective was to suppliment standard cross bucks on unsignaled crossings with stop signs. It to seemed effective since the charge was changed from an un-enforceable running a cross buck in front of a train to running a stop sign- which can be written any time- not just when a train is in the area. In my experience people started to respect them more (at least as much as they do stop signs else where.)

If I had a suggestion now it would be to phase out the standard RR flasher and replece it with standard MUTCD traffic signals- flasing yellow with no train in circiut and solid red when a train in in the circiut.

[zardoz]

Kev,
That system seems to be a really good idea. Perhaps the 5 minutes of bell ringing was a bit much, but the yellow lights warning would probably help. Unless drivers saw yellow lights the same as yellow traffic signal lights: a reason to speed up to beat the red!

[zardoz]

Kev,
That system seems to be a really good idea. Perhaps the 5 minutes of bell ringing was a bit much, but the yellow lights warning would probably help. Unless drivers saw yellow lights the same as yellow traffic signal lights: a reason to speed up to beat the red!

[Anonymous]

WEll this might be off Topic, but still rather interesting. it too is about Ralroad crossings.

Couteaux du lac crossing.. used to be brutal. Absolutely terrible. old Grandfathered crossing lights... junkie things they were.. It finally hit the town that they needed to do somehting.

They were replaced top of the line gates and everything.. more lights then you can shake a stick at.

I know your thinking.. how is this interesting.. this happens every day.. well heres the cool part..

the old RR crossing lights Were moved 250 meters BACK from the tracks, the RED lens taken out and replaced with YELLOW lens, the X at the top was removed and replaced with a yellow one, with black lettering saying TRAIN NEAR... WHEN FLASHING.

LAst year they uped the system even mopre, when they timed the "Warning Railraod lights" to the block signaling system. as soon as the block signal signals would light up (just after the corssing, indicating a train is in the block somewhere.. the yellow warning lights woudl start.) This ofcourse sparked complaints from the neighbors because the bell was loud and ringing 5 minutes before the train passed through the corssing.. but the vast majority of them Thought this was a great, excellent idea..

So whats that missouri.. a 5-10 minute warning without the barriers even going down!! and then ofcourse 30 secondes before the train comes through the red ones, or "Regular warning devices" start, just like regular.