"Whiskers", seniority, and etc....

[Murphy Siding]

Could some of you railroaders on here explain to us non-railroaders on here, the ins & outs of how railroads determine who gets what job? I've read about "sign-on dates", "bidding on jobs", and similar things, but don't have a real grap of how it works. Thanks

[Anonymous]

all contracts are different but one thing that is the same everywhere is seniority. seniority is determined by the date that you start working for the railroad. to answer your first question seniority determines who gets what job.

[csxengineer98]

senority will determan what job/jobs you can work..and what type of service you will work (road...yard...extra board)... the older you are in senority... the more choices you have for what pools extra boards and yard jobs to pick from to work... so the oldest persons on the senority roster pick the best jobs..and so on down the line untill the guys with the youngest senority get "stuck" working the crappiest jobs becoues no one else with more senority wants to work them...
also as stated above...your trainman senority date is set by the day you start work...your first day on the proporty... engineers senority is desided by the date you went to engineers school...(but this is subject to local and company labor agreements)
csx engineer

[Anonymous]

Seniority!?!? I wish we had that on shortlines [8D].

[DRBusse]

If you can find a book called "Vectors" at your local library...it is a collection of columns written by the late Len Morgan, longtime columnist for Flying magazine (and brother of the late Trains Magazine editor David P. Morgan).

The book contains an outstanding essay called "Seniority" that is just as applicable to railroad employees as to flyboys. Well worth reading to explain just how important seniority is to transportation workers...the airline system of seniority and job-bidding was borrowed from the rails (as was the pay scale based on weight-on-drivers).

(The last essay in the book is also worth reading--it's Len's obituary to David).

[Murphy Siding]

When a job comes "open",then everybody who wants the job applies for it, and the one with most seniority automatically gets it?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by [e-mail]

all contracts are different but one thing that is the same everywhere is seniority. seniority is determined by the date that you start working for the railroad. to answer your first question seniority determines who gets what job.

Not necessarily true. All contracts and railroads are different. The Company decides how the seniority roster is set up and maintains the roster, usually through Crew Management or Human Resources depending upon the RR. The seniority date may be the first date you are on the property or it may be determined by the date of your physical examination for T&E service. Conrail used this method and it worked better than the first day on the property method because the physical date and time was set and no questions arose when a number of people started on the same day (we had 4 in our small terminal). The NS uses the first date on the property method.

LC

[Anonymous]

On the BNSF when multiple people have the same hire date, toward the end of training, they hold a conference call among all of those classes throughout the system and everybodies name goes into a hat and is drawn by one MFT. One by one you establish your seniority by lottery for that specific hire date. Craft transfers go to the top of the list automatically.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by drfizzix

Seniority!?!? I wish we had that on shortlines [8D].

go to the BLET website and learn how to organize a Union on your railroad and then you will have seniority and other benifits, I would not work for a railroad without union rep.

[tatans]

Gee, just because you have been on the job longer than me you get the better job, probably the easier job and all the benefits that go along with it, what ever happened to to the concept of the best qualified person would get a certain position, oh, that might mean someone might have to actually do the best job or take a night course or work hard, what kind of a concept is that??? my! my! we can't have that now can we?? Just being at work longer doesn't really mean you are the one that's qualified for a certain position.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tatans

Gee, just because you have been on the job longer than me you get the better job, probably the easier job and all the benefits that go along with it, what ever happened to to the concept of the best qualified person would get a certain position, oh, that might mean someone might have to actually do the best job or take a night course or work hard, what kind of a concept is that??? my! my! we can't have that now can we?? Just being at work longer doesn't really mean you are the one that's qualified for a certain position.

It sure does.

I was thinking about taking a night course at the community college on effecient switching tech. Can you direct me there.
C'mon man this ain't Wal Mart! Only kiss-asses worry about best qualified crap. 9 outta 10 times, the person with the most time is better qualified.
I take it you are non-union........figures

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken

On the BNSF when multiple people have the same hire date, toward the end of training, they hold a conference call among all of those classes throughout the system and everybodies name goes into a hat and is drawn by one MFT. One by one you establish your seniority by lottery for that specific hire date. Craft transfers go to the top of the list automatically.

Interesting. I had heard that some roads drew straws. The Conrail way (which I started with as I said above was first by Physical Date and then by time of physical on that date and if both were at the same time, by employee birthdate. That way the older man really was the "older man" on the roster...

LC

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tatans

Gee, just because you have been on the job longer than me you get the better job, probably the easier job and all the benefits that go along with it, what ever happened to to the concept of the best qualified person would get a certain position, oh, that might mean someone might have to actually do the best job or take a night course or work hard, what kind of a concept is that??? my! my! we can't have that now can we?? Just being at work longer doesn't really mean you are the one that's qualified for a certain position.

And just thinking you are better qualified doesn't make that assertion so either.

[Anonymous]

Let me add yet another aspect to this seniority discussion by using my own experience.
I hired out with NS 9/9/99 along with seven other guys. All eight of us went to conductor training school at the same time, even though I marked-up a month ahead of the others. To assign seniority among our class NS used the last four digits of our social security numbers, in my case my last four digits are quite high so, as it turned out, I was the low man on the "totem pole" even though I was the oldest in age and even though I marked-up ahead of the other new hires.
On a 12 man extraboard I was the least in seniority and got the jobs no one else wanted. I knew it would be that way and I didn't complain. A year and a half later all eight of us were either furloughed or accepted transfers to another state due to the re-routing of trains 118 and 119. Goes to show you how quickly things can change in the railroad business.

[jeffhergert]

When I hired out in 1998, our seniority date was the first day of brakeman's class. The actual position in that class was determined by our birthdates. UP employees transferring from other crafts into trainmen's jobs went first by age, then all the rest of us.
Someone in the class ahead of me complained that there was no contract provision to give craft transfers preferrence, so that stopped.
New hires now get their seniority by using the last four digits of their social security numbers, like baberuth73 mentioned.
I was originally hired for North Platte as there were no openings in Iowa at the time. I had my physical there. Between the physical and brakeman's class, jobs opened in Iowa and I was allowed to join the Iowa class. My paperwork got hung up for a week and it cost me a few slots of seniority in Iowa.
Out in North Platte, they stated at the hiring session that seniority would be determined by how well you did on your final rules exam in brakemen's class.
Too bad the ex-CNW at that time didn't do that. I would've had the top position of my class. [:D]
Jeff

[tatans]

Jeffh: now there's a concept, actually qualifying for a final rules exam, I'll bet that had a lot of guys yelling "unfair", now if only they would do that with all levels of seniority. And ironken, what's non-onion mean?---figures.

[Anonymous]

sorry taters....I should have written it in crayon...UNION. My best suggestion to you is to hire on with Wal-Mart where you are promoted by manager's preference, sex, minority status and all of those other, "best qualified," qualifiers. The seniority system is so un-fair. Whomever has managed to put the most time in with the company must be doing something right, thus giving them seniority. How archaic! I agree with you. All seniority should be abolished. I bet you would love to hear, "Well Tartans, you are a great employee and have been here 2 yrs longer than Sue, but we need more women in management....so better luck next time on that promotion." Seniority based systems are pure silly! You cannot suckass your way in, befriend your way in, or any other means of getting around a guy that has twice as many years in as you. Nobody claims ethnic bias, age descrimination, gender, or religious descrimination with a seniority system. It all boils down to your number. What fun is a workplace without a little descriminatory promotion?

[samfp1943]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken

QUOTE: Originally posted by tatans

Gee, just because you have been on the job longer than me you get the better job, probably the easier job and all the benefits that go along with it, what ever happened to to the concept of the best qualified person would get a certain position, oh, that might mean someone might have to actually do the best job or take a night course or work hard, what kind of a concept is that??? my! my! we can't have that now can we?? Just being at work longer doesn't really mean you are the one that's qualified for a certain position.

It sure does.

I was thinking about taking a night course at the community college on effecient switching tech. Can you direct me there.
C'mon man this ain't Wal Mart! Only kiss-asses worry about best qualified crap. 9 outta 10 times, the person with the most time is better qualified.
I take it you are non-union........figures

And the key working phrase is SENIORITYHowever you determine it...
And Another aspect of the Senority Game: Some years ago I worked at a company that was on the L&N main line between Memphis and Bruceton,Tn. The plant was serviced daily by an L&N local that went east on the old NC&St.L line[ all that was left of it at the time] about thirteen miles out to Lenow,Tn East of Memphis and then returned back and ran out the L&N main line to Brownsville, Tn[ about 50 miles] and then back to Memphis where the job terminated for the day, it ran 5 day a week. The equipment was L&N as were the employees, but the kicker was the crew's senority was on NC&St.L and they were senior to any L&N employees, so they held down what was considered to be the best job at Memphis for a crew, regular start-time and back home at night . Regular hours and vertually bump proof..

[Murphy Siding]

tatans: I can see ironken's point here. Consider that most of the job is learned on the job. A longer time on the job should make one better qualified. A system that would always be judging who is "more qualified" would be really unworkable, in my eyes. You could probably file a lawsuit over each and every job asignment-who wants that? If you had two similar engineers, with similar job performance, how to decide which one is "more qualified"? Perhaps, you could base it on who has *produced* more for the railroad-of course, that would probably be the one with the most time in on the job.(The one with the most seniority.) All things considered, seniority is probably the least unfair way to asign jobs.

[arbfbe]

tatans,

So what if the trainmaster decides the "best qualified person" for the job just happens to be the Superintendant's nephew who hired out last week? See why the unions have been strong supporters of the seniority system? It may not be perfect but once your seniority is established EVERYONE KNOWS where they stand. You know which jobs you can hold and just exactly who can bump you from yours.

It also makes management's job so much easier since they do not have to listen to an endless stream of whining about why one employee thinks they are so much more qualified than that worthless piece of skin now holding the premier job. The manager can just hold up the seniority roster and settle the argument.

Employees also have an incentive to stick around at the same place of employment for a longer time. Seniority may be a long time coming but most know that over time their position for improved jobs improves over time.

[Anonymous]

Its all reall a craps shoot. I supervise an inspection department with a seniority system. It runs smoothly much of the time. The problem comes when some of my inspectors can hardly read a gage any more because their eyes are going. There are some fine inspectors that I cant keep because they keep getting bumped. (Production here is very cyclical based on the whims of the govt.) I cant build a bullpen of good young talent and over 75% of the inspectors are due to retire within 3 yrs. God bless them. They've been here 40 years but it sure does kill the incentive for anyone younger to come here and try hard.

[badlandsbutch]

Since everyone is rules qualified in the same labor group, labor class; senority determines who gets the bid. Exempt positons are determined by ----- who's neck the noose fits or
the new hard charger that lacks experience. MOW point of view.

[Anonymous]

Well another aspect: I worked 5 years for SP the last 3 as an engineer, and I was always on the xtra board, but i did work a lot not always at good runs but I worked. Then I went into a apprenticeship in the newspaper and had to sink to the bottom, but once again I perservered and I worked up to a journeyman Printer and with out seniority I would never gotten into the top management job I retired with, because I would never have had the right experience

[bawbyk]

I was thinking about taking a night course at the community college on effecient switching tech. Can you direct me there.
C'mon man this ain't Wal Mart! Only kiss-asses worry about best qualified crap. 9 outta 10 times, the person with the most time is better qualified.
I take it you are non-union........figures

[Anonymous]

Just think if you have younger people that can stick it out for another 3 yrs, those older people will be retiring and they will have a good job. I put in 35 years and was always close to the bottom of the seniority list. as they were always cutting jobs. But like Scott said earlier. you can always tell when a train has been there as they leave fre***racks, but I still can't look at the tracks and tell which way the train was going, unless I actually see the train.

[wabash1]

To those people who dont like unions and senority practice, then dont hire out with companies that work this way. then you wont be dissapointed when all your best brown nosing tactics dont get you nowhere. that is the best reason for senority is that I never care who is brown nosing the bosses when i want i job i bid it in . it is real simple the guy or gal that has put in 20 has more qualifications than a guy hired 2 weeks ago. and someone who has worked for the company for 20 years is not going anywhere. and knows the jobs the shippers and consignee. what they want and need. the guy here 2 weeks only know there is a party friday and he needs beer money.

[art11758]

The only negative to seniority I ever experienced at a job was the guy that was second on the list was a loafer. Consistently did as little as possible on the basis it was his "right" as a senior man. I out lived him (he died from cancer) and went on eventually to his spot on the list. I was well liked by management ,not on account of anything other than my ability. Was it the best system? No. The most workable and easy to understand? Absolutely.

[dlazyh51]

At the beginning when I hired out 16 years ago for BN, I also had my questions and doubts about seniority. My dad was stauntchly anti-union, even though he did work for the NP back in the early '50s. Maybe there was some reason for it I don't know, but that's another story.
I wondered why more qualified people weren't working the better jobs. Then as time progressed, and I got to know everyone and had a chance to work with so many different people, I've come to realize that everyone is equally qualified. The job isn't something you pick up right away, but learn as you go. There are so many rules and things, and when you work with these guys and gals, you learn to respect them. It's a team effort thing, you learn and trust everyone out here.
So when it comes to seniority and someone holding a special job, trust me when I say that this person should have the job, because he/she has been out here the longest and knows what's going on. I would trust this person more than someone claiming to know more who is fresh off the street.

[Anonymous]

Well folks there seems to be some union haters in here!
I worked for the CNR Toronto for 31 years and I can tell you now if there were no union the company could just about do what it wanted to with workers, jobs and pay.
I was not a big fan of the union, but with out it things would have not been as good.
most of what I am reading in here is about the running trade, well I was not in that part of the railway I was a trucker and a heavy Equipment operator ie,Containers.
As some are saying, yes seniority does count, if you qualified for the job.
But what if you wanted to do another job in the railway and you were not qualified to do that job! The only way that I could get the heavy equipment job was to be trained, at that time, you could only get trained by bidding summer holiday relief.
You had three days to prove that you had ability and potential to do the job, if you didn't you were disqualified, if you did then you got fifteen days of training and then you got the job. WL

[route_rock]

SO what I was at the bottom ofr a week. Now I have over 400 under me. The retirements are coming I will be able to hold whatever pool turn I want soon enough ( if I want to do that)
I have worked that non seniority list crap. I dont care if you have more time than me its your right in my eyes to be able to bid into that job. But if you just came on the property? Hell no. I got passed for management positions cause the little suck butts were yes men. Me I dont brown nose well. I do my job and I go home. If you dont like me stepping on your toes to get it done go cry to someone else.
Now I am set up and ina good position. I like it and if your younger in whiskers and you want my job? Well your going to have to wait.Someday I will move and you will tell people the same thing.( BTW I do a *** fine job because I HAVE to! My safety and my pilots safety depends on me doing my job 100% right 100% of the time)