Amtrak train stuck for 20 hours

[Anonymous]

The Amtrak offical who let the train leave Jacksonville was fired today.

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by paulstecyna21

oltmannd
where would they have to divert the trains? and don't they electrical power within the train to run on?

The trains are all diesel powered south of Washington DC and can run on any track, anywhere, so diverting them off their normal route is technically feasible.

[paulstecyna21]

oltmannd
where would they have to divert the trains? and don't they electrical power within the train to run on?

[mloik]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wwhitby

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

So who's in charge at CSX?, Moe , Larry or Curly?

Shemp :-)

I was going to say Groucho, Chico, and Harpo...

(and Zeppo for the true fans)

(and Gummo for the even true-er fans)

[RudyRockvilleMD]

I looked at railroad maps in Florida and Georgia, and I couldn't find any viable detour route. Amtrak had only one choice, and that was to bridge its passengers around the derailment in Savannah. I wonder why buses were not available in what might be a relatively populous area when it can seemingly readily charter buses to bridge derailments in less populated areas.

[Tharmeni]

Today's arrival of the Cardinal (from DC, Cincy and Indy) arrived in Chicago 28 minutes early today.
How many members of the press do you think were on hand? How many passengers did they interview?

You're right.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

So who's in charge at CSX?, Moe , Larry or Curly?

OH A WISE GUY HUH NYUK NYUK NYUK
MOE'S IN CHARGE LAME BRAIN

UP'S law firm same as AMTRAK'S
DEWEY CHEATUM & HOWE

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by paulstecyna21

qoute orginally from JOdom
I'm not familiar with the track layout in Savannah, but it's possible that if the Amtrak train had been rerouted to Macon from Jacksonville or Brunswick then sent to Savannah it could have bypassed the derailment.
to view that link go to http://maps.google.com and type in Savannah, georgia and you will see a map of their rail system in georgia.

NS from Jacksonville to Macon is single track and already congested. The best intermodal running time is currently 9 hour.

Brunswick (Jessup) to Macon is less congested, but dark. Best intermodal time is 8 hours.

Macon to Savannah is also mostly dark. Best intermodal time is currently 7 hours.

So, it's pretty unlikely you could complete the detour in less than 15 hours - not much better than waiting it out. And, that's provided you could find NS crews to pilot it.

There is a proposal to rebuild Jessup to Atlanta as 110 mph passenger route (for Atlanta to Jacksonville service - a Federally designated high speed corridor) and another proposal to do conventional passenger service to Savannah. If those were done, a detour would be considerably more viable.

[paulstecyna21]

qoute orginally from JOdom
I'm not familiar with the track layout in Savannah, but it's possible that if the Amtrak train had been rerouted to Macon from Jacksonville or Brunswick then sent to Savannah it could have bypassed the derailment.
to view that link go to http://maps.google.com and type in Savannah, georgia and you will see a map of their rail system in georgia.

[paulstecyna21]

i did find out that the trains did make it to their destination and this actually pushed people to fly instead of taking amtrak to points north and south.

[daveklepper]

The whole shabang is explained by lack of David Gunn. He would have probably gotten to the area as quickly as he could under the circumstances and taken charge.

[RRCharlie]

The spectacular derailment referred to in one of the threads happened just north of Jacksonville before Christmas day as we say it that afternoon as we left Jax on # 98 to go to NYP. We arrived on time the next morning!!!!

I saw a report somewhere today, 4 January, that the derailment that fouled up Amtrak and CSX was indeed the one my wife and I saw at the south end of the tracks leading into the Savannah passenger station.

The Amtrak trains take a route called the 'Nahunta cutoff" , former ACL trackage, Jax, Callahan in FLA; Fokston, Nahunta, Jesup, Savannah in GA. Some of the following northbound freights could have been going to Waycross after leaving Folkston, GA.

As far back as 1967 just at the ACL-SAL merger, all their passenger trains used the current Savannah passenger station which was built west of downtown. Every track funnels into that location and when it gets blocked as it did after Christmas, nothing can move through there.

[oltmannd]

Once upon a time, the SAL coulda detoured over the ACL and vice versa - but that's all be "rationalized".

Looking at GA rail map, there really aren't any possible detour routes that would have been better than just waiting it out.

I like the "bus bridge" idea. Shouldn't have been too difficult to charter a half dozen busses, even if you had to draw from Atlanta to do it.

I find it hard to believe they couldn't figure a way to get the train and buses together at a road Xing. ...unless they were getting such poor info from CSX that it caused bad decisions.

[Modelcar]

rrnut282....I probably am the one who wondered about the possibility of rerouting these detained Amtrak trains {if they would have been stopped in time to do so}, etc....As for all the regulations and track inspections, and other questions raised...why not be able to deviate some of these to handle the emergency....using restricted speed running....It's simply running another train over tracks used everyday...I know, all the restrictions in place that this sort of thing can't be done at will for just a "late" train, etc....but under these conditions with people kinda "emergency stranded" seems to me in this day and age of communitations, and all the rest...something as such could be done....If not, maybe now is a good time to work out the details so the "next time" this happens someone will know what and how to do it.

[motor]

QUOTE: Originally posted by motor

Did that train ever make it to NYC, or at least out of GA? This thread isn't clear on that, unless I missed something.

motor

Guess it's still stuck in that Peach State swamp.

John

[rrnut282]

I'm going to guess that Amtrak couldn't back up because there probably were other trains waiting behind them. What I didn't see addressed in any of the information posted so far, Amtrak couldn't find enough buses to get pax to their destination. OK, so why didn't they get just enough buses to "detour around the derailment" and reverse the trains on either side of the derailment at Jacksonville and north of Savanah? Letting them go like lemmings from Jacksonville was big risk with no possibility of a "plan B".

How CSX has emerged without blame for this situation is beyond me. Another poster suggested that they reroute trains on another track. Amtrak can only run on rails that they have a "right" to run that has been negotiated by lawyers and only after it has been inspected and found to be in condition that will allow safe passage of a passenger train at speed. That cannot be worked out in a couple of hours. Sometimes it takes years. Also Amtrak in some cases ends up paying a (small) part of the track maintainence of the tracks that they run on, but do not own.

One last question, has anybody seen these "supply trailers" someone asked about? Could they be confusing road railers full of mail as a supply trailer?

[SALfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nemisis

Now here's a question for those of you who know the routes in North Florida and Georgia better than I do. For the 6 hours we were stuck in Jacksonville BNSF freights kept rolling by the whole time. Where did they go? They weren't in front of us at the derailment site. Did they take a turnoff before Savannah?

Norfolk Southern's line into Jacksonville starts in Macon, GA and runs roughly south to Valdosta, GA, then turns east-southeast to go to Jacksonville (IIRC). Depending on where you were, the freights could have headed for Macon via Valdosta, or they could have gone north 70 miles to Brunswick, GA on CSX and then moved to NS's line to Macon. Again IIRC, NS's lines to JAX, Brunswick and Savannah are like the fingers on a hand, with the palm being Macon (these are ex-Central of Georgia lines).

I'm not familiar with the track layout in Savannah, but it's possible that if the Amtrak train had been rerouted to Macon from Jacksonville or Brunswick then sent to Savannah it could have bypassed the derailment. However, that probably would have been impractical for dozens of reasons, such as other traffic on NS lines, lack of familiarity with those lines by Amtrak crews, lack of passenger-service facilities, etc., etc.

[motor]

Did that train ever make it to NYC, or at least out of GA? This thread isn't clear on that, unless I missed something.

motor

[wwhitby]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

So who's in charge at CSX?, Moe , Larry or Curly?

Shemp :-)

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

oltmannd....Quite a scenario to handle such an emergency....and "what a way to run a railroad"......

When mgt focuses on assigning blame more than fixing problems, there is a tendency to provide "happy talk" rather honesty. RRs that have morning phone conferences to decompose yesterday's disasters and hammer in the blame tend to have disfunctional processes. This was pretty much standard procedure most places 30 years ago - back when RRs had plenty of spare resources and fewer demands for high service levels.

[paulstecyna21]

i have been down to perryville, maryland and have seen supply trailers coupled up to amtrak trains. now why couldn't amtrak send a supply train to the that were stuck and get personel to unclog the toilets?

[Modelcar]

oltmannd....Quite a scenario to handle such an emergency....and "what a way to run a railroad"......

[vsmith]

So who's in charge at CSX?, Moe , Larry or Curly?

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AMTK200

If CSX couldn't give a decent estiment why didn't Amtrak hold the Train in Jacksonville?

Plausible play by play:

CSX train derails.
Crew tells dispatcher
Dispatcher tells Chief Dispatcher (or STO or whatever CSX calls'em)
Chief tells AVP of trans and calls Div Engr.
Div Engr tells his line supv. to go find out what happened.
Meanwhile, AVP tells Ingram (the really big boss!) who lets it be known that they better get it cleaned up, pronto, no matter what!
This word flow quickly down the food chain, with increasing emphasis along the way, to the Engr supv. who just arrived on the site.
With pressure from "on high", the guy makes his absolute rosiest assessment as to when trains can be running again. He may not have much experience, either, which wouldn't help.
Work of time to cleam up filters back up, perhaps with some "rounding down" along the way, to make Ingram happy.
So, based on this info, they give Amtrak Wilmington the happy news, "only an couple of hours or so". Amtrak tells them to let the train go and CSX and start running trains behind it in anticipation of a quick clean up.

Now, if you add in the possibility of the job being bigger than the first, rushed analysis, the "couple of hours" could easily become 12+ hours, with trains stacking up on single track in both directions.

...and the toilets are full.....

[Anonymous]

If CSX couldn't give a decent estiment why didn't Amtrak hold the Train in Jacksonville?

[Modelcar]

...I'm sure there was enough blame to be placed several locations.....If Amtrak had 3 trains heading north...and of course that is an everyday occurrence, and someone should have known of the derailment....and Amtrak personnel should have been on top of what had happened and before the trains got near that location....a plan should have been devised with CSX or whatever RR was necessary to handle a way around the derailment for them, etc.....If not possible cancel the trains at a proper location that alternate transportation could be arranged...or at least some to lodging, etc...Something better than what actually took place....Practically nothing...!

[Anonymous]

[8D]ok why cant they back the train to to nearest station or a small town
& unload passengers onto a bus or while waiting go to nearest store & why be out in the woods what if a person had needed medical attention theres a law suit waitin to happen come on AMTRAKthink about it
[:D]

[UPTRAIN]

CSX knows exactly what they're doing, and are probably still laughing about it...ok not really. But somebody didn't inform them of the full situation that was ahead.

[paulstecyna21]

that is interesting becuase i go to the eastern center for arts and technology in willow grove, pa and one person told me that this is outragous and crazy if you ask me. I say that amtrak should have used diesel locomotives to keep the trains on time if you ask me. why couldn't they do that?