engine levels

[Mookie]

Leaving for work this morning in the pre-dawn, I heard a coal train leaving town. Sounded like it was right next door, but was actually about 10 blocks away. I heard him increase his speed about 4 times. Our city is in a bowl and every direction out of town is uphill.

My question is how high do these speed levels go -
Is 8 correct? How does the engineer know when to go to the next level? I assume it is like a big truck - so many gears before you reach your travel speed, just not sure if it is the same.

As always - thanx

Jen

[kschmidt]

Greetings,

Yes, a locomotive has 8 notches for the throttle. But it is not like a transmission on a truck. The engineer is not shifting through the gears he has to set the throttle based on different things. The engineer has to think about a lot of different things when increasing or decreasing the throttle. There is the speed limit of the track they are running on. How much power is needed to get the train up the hill to get out of town. Also if the locomotive powers up to quickly the wheels may begin to spin on the rails and this can cause problems. Also if there is not enough power given the train could stall out on hill. So there are alot of things going on when you hear that engine being throttled up or down.

Keith

[Anonymous]

Yes, our AMT trains have 8 speeds aswell, usually to start we go to eight.. then when were nearing the station go down to about 4... then 0... then apply brakes..

Consider this.

A spedd throttle is basicaly like a gas pedal.. pretend your foot is your hand.. if the engine is 'throttled' (thanks Keith for the word, i wasn't ure what i was going to put!) to speed 8 is like pushing on your gas pedal full.. naturally your car would take off, so does an enginge (so to speak, in it's slow way).. now move up or down to 4 is like easing off the gas pedal.... and then 0 is like taking your foot of the gas.. your car won't stop... just downspeed slowly until you apply the breaks.

Now either that analogy is perfect or really screwed up. tell me if you get it..
Cheers, Kev

[Anonymous]

I would imagine that you are talking commuter type trains. I dare you to run freight like you just desgribed. It sounds like you need a lawnmower throttle on your tinker train. Rabbit means fast, and turtle means slow. Dynamic? what dynamic? Draft forces and buff forces, what are they? Just go and don't go. But there again, I forgot that in your neck of the woods, remotes are operated from the control tower.

[Anonymous]

Love people who challenge what montreal has

AMT YES! it is commuter train, but you know who makes the locomotive?? GE ofcourse! you want the model number? its an AC4400CW. the seize of that thing would surprise anyone.it works on... drum roll... EIGHT speeds!!! you know who owns the other portion of the AC$$00CW's? CP RAIL!!! and IT is, A FREIGHT TRAIN ENGINE.. works with EIGHT speeds, and EXACTLY how i stated it to work. I defend my position all the way, the other locomotive commuinly used is CN's GP units, bought from them.. it uses EIGHT, 8, HUIT, speeds like.. wow.. i described.. someone put this on Ripley's believe it or not. So i come to the AMT's defence when it's considered a "TINKER" train. They have some of the best FREIGHT train locomotives made by EMD, and GE (that for the record stands for GENERAL electric)so please, it is basicly running a freight train with people! so dude, don't challenge me again on an issue u are unsure about, because i'll deal you another red signal, next time it'll be an Absolute.

Cheers, Kev

[Mookie]

Well, somewhere in there I think I got the info I was looking for. It sounds like it takes a good set of hands and some reasonably good ears to run an engine.

The thing that intrigued me was that he was into the 4 range and had barely cleared the yard - was still in residential area nearby. Does this indicate a pretty good grade? And the top level is 8, correct? For example, do the coal trains that go thru Nebraska (flat) at their top speed, run at 8? Forgive me for not being really mechanically minded. I am trying to put this into something I am familiar with - cars, trucks and I know they aren't the same, but struggling with getting a grasp of some of these things.

Be patient...

Jen

[BRAKIE]

Jen,I would like to share this with you.I recall when working as a brakeman the engineer on a older EMD unit like the GP7/9 would look down toward the ground to see if the train was moving or not this was due to the loading up these units would do before they would actually move.With a ALCO you had instant throttle response.You open the throttle and you would start to move.

I also notice the engineer would be adjusting the throttle setting and train brake in order to keep the train under control...I have seen units in run 8 with the sanders open pulling hard as well,yet the speed wasn't all that fast.

To answer your question yes I have seen throttles left in run 8 for short periods of time..

One of the dangest things I ever seen was when a engineer put a tool box on the dead man control,walk over to the water cooler and get a drink of water while the the train was still moving.The fireman did not seem the least concern about the engineer doing this...

[Mookie]

I can identify with the engineer/fireman - I have heard some really scary things that the "old timers" would do.

[Anonymous]

Like I say, whip a coal load into run 8 and see what happens. I never denied that your little RR used locos that had 8 throttle "notches". You surprise me that you would know what an absolute signal was. Good for you! "It is basically running a freight train with people," sure ***! Auto brake valve is set up for pass not freight, you don't have 18,000 trailing tons or 125 cars.
Don't get allmighty with me "dude," my pay comes from the RR as well and it is not some little passenger line or a class 2.
Cheers Ken

[Mookie]

Ironken - you have helped me in the past. Where would a coal train be set to run if on pretty flat ground and doing the speed limit?

Jen

[Anonymous]

Hi Jen,
The last thing a heavy train wants to do is move. A light train is easy but if I'm heavy I'll start out by "taking up the slack". Pulling real slow, notch 1 or 2. When I think my train is stretched I'll come out a couple more notches. This is the critical time. If I have enough power, say 4 or more units, and try to hurry at this point, I can pull the train in two. I have a gauge that tells me how hard I'm pulling. It's called an amp meter. If my amp meter is at the upper limits, 1600, and my speed is real slow then my "tractive effort" is high and I could break a knuckle. This danger decreases as speed increases.
One thing I do and tell any engineer trainee that has the misfortune of riding with me is to keep an eye on that amp meter and don't notch up while the amps are steady or increasing. As long as the amps are on the way down it is o.k. to notch up. Starting a train is the easy part, stopping it is the trick. That same lazy ol' train that didn't want to start a while ago doesn't want to stop now! Inertia in it's truest form.
You wrote," I heard him increase his speed about 4 times."
Likely he was allowing the amps to drop before givin''er some more.
This reminds me of something I saw on T.V. a few years ago. Connie Chung was doing a special on train crossing accidents and it seemed to me that the program was a little bit anti rail. At one point she said that, after a particular crossing accident The engineer "admitted in a court of law that he had his locomotives at FULL POWER !!" Like he was being a cowboy.
You just don't get it do you Connie?
Slofr8.

[Mookie]

Slofr8 - Thank you! We are getting there. This is some of what I was looking for. I have heard that we do have a 1% grade going south out of Lincoln, which didn't sound like a lot to me, but the engineer smiled and said it was a lot - especially for a long coal train. But - after the 4 notch, what would be the likely scenario after he was finally on flat ground and not struggling. This one was going to KCMO, so probably wouldn't want to rip it too fast, but some go west across NE to Wyoming and between here and North Platte, it seems pretty flat. So about where do you think he might end up notch-wise? Just a guess is fine! Would it help if I said they are SD70Macs - about 125 loaded coal cars - the ones that go south have one on the front and a helper on the end and the ones that go west usually have 2 units on the front only.

Jen

[Anonymous]

Jen, I hired out in coal country and to be honest with you there are alot of variables involved. Remember, I was a lowly conductor, but, paid attention to what was going on with my train. I would say one of the variables is HPT (horsepower per ton) and weight of train. Where I was, the entire train wasn't always on river grade. The head end may be on level ground,as the rear is still pulling a grade. As for Kev's posts, he seems a little underschooled in freight svce. On the sub that I worked on the speed limit was 55mph empty if that speed could be maintained in less that notch 3 and 50mph for loads. Can't help you out much more than that.
Ken

[Anonymous]

There you go, Jen. Slofr8 put it masterfully. Myself, not being an engineer was afraid to get into tractive effort and amperage territory, for fear of making a fool out of myself. He stated it exactly how I was tought by some old Hogs.
Ken

[Anonymous]

Wow, Jen. Small world. Occasionally, I get forced to Hostle power down here in KC. See the same trains that you are talkin' bout down here in Murray every day.

[Anonymous]

ok Ironhead listen closely..

i'll say this slow so even you can understand, alright? Maybe you don't like the fact that i'm Canadian.. but here goes nothing..
WE..... USE...... LOCOMOTIVES...... MADE......BY .......GE.. ok that part should be easy. The... MODEL ......NUMBER.....IS....AC4400CW...MADE.....BY...GE...

next sentance:

No.....automatic.....break....valve....in....locomotives...

hmmm okay you got that.. or was that still to fast? oh and can u tell the difference between a Restrictiove and absolute signal? Quite frankly, i couldn't care less where your pay comes from, good thing you don't work passenger, your customer relations really suck. so that last reply.. most of it.. you forgot to ask me if i cared... SURPRISE! i don't!! Also, whatever railroad you work for (do they still use steam engines?- maybe thats where the coal idea comes from) should seriously consider revoking you as a driver because you are clearley inept, and a nugatory person to that Railroad. you should consider seeking counceling for your anger and agression.

get a another job/life/anything in any order.

Steam is out man! it went out about 55 years ago!

CHEERS, 55 years and EIGHT speeds ahead of you,
Kev.

[Mookie]

it is one more piece and it does help. I need to remember this isn't like running a bus or a car!
You brought up a good point - my head is level and my tail is not! It is starting to make more sense!

Thanx Ken!

Jen

[Mookie]

I didn't realize you were that close! We see the ones that come to you and also the ones that are going to the Cooper Nuclear Station in Brownsville, NE.

Having you see those trains reassures me I am not just imagining things!

Jen

[Mookie]

Everyone is so great about keeping it simple for me. Sometimes I really struggle with what they are talking about when they start "railroading" among themselves, but the answers directly to me are usually very understandable.

Sometimes it is hard to understand since I can't see the inside of an engine or it never stops long enough for me to get a good look at something, but hey - I have lots of time to train watch in the future!

Jen

[Anonymous]

Jen wrote : "But - after the 4 notch, what would be the likely scenario after he was finally on flat ground and not struggling."
I couldn't begin to guess,Jen.
Where I am (Maine) even what we call a flat piece of track isn't all that flat. Some times I can go for a few miles at say notch 2,3,or 4. Depends on the trains weight, length and track profile. It's usually a fairly constant adjustment of power and or brake to keep the train stretched or bunched or whatever the engineer feels is necessary. Even on flat ground.
Now a train of all loads that long is not that hard to control. His train was approaching 7000 feet. Most likely one part of a train is going up or down a little. It mostly keeps itself stretched. Not to say he doesn't have to know what he's doing though. These guys are handling trains at the upper limits of what the braking system is designed for. I take my hat off to them.
But a freight train with a mix of loads and empties is a little different. Say the loads are on the rear and the unit starts up a slight grade. The head end of the train slows a little and the faster moving rear slams into it. It's refereed to as a run in. Very embarrassing, let me tell you. It's easy to avoid with all loads or empties or the loads ahead of the empties.
This is more information than you asked for, Jen, but it's a hard question to answer without a little 'splainen.
Slofr8.

[Anonymous]

Glad we could help. i don't mean to change the topic on everyone but heres a dellema.. CP rail, or the AMT owns a lot of different locomotives, some dating back to the old EMD F series, the "bullets" to GE's AC4400CW. my question is this, and i mean not to change the subject.. but what are the outter appearence differences between EMD's SD90MAC and GE's AC4400CW? because they look almost exactly alike.. i ahve to gamble each time because i don't know what it actaully is. once inside it has a peice of paper which one it is.. KINDA giving it away! any help would be great in "spotting the differences!"

Cheers,
Kev

[cabforward]

i have read the posts for this topic, and still don't get it.. what is being applied thru the throttle? is it diesel rpms or electrical current? how much power is added going from notch 1-2? is it the same amount in going from 4-5?

what are the priority gauges to be watched in increasing, cruising and decreasing speed routinely? in reading posts, it seems 3 of the meters to watch are amps, air pressure & speed..

speed is important, because there are restrictions & rules out the wazoo.. just as important is engine performance (diesel and electric).. which gauges tell how efficiently the engine is doing? what is the threshold on different gauges that is a 'red flag'
..like temp. gauges for oil & water in a car?

between the load, the grade & speed restrictions, it must get pretty deep in deciding what to do & when..

it has to be a hard trade-off when pulling out of a yard with a coal train (or equally heavy load).. just when maximum speed is reached, the throttle must be pulled back for a curve, grade, etc.. it must put a lot of stress on an engine to work up to pulling a load to maximum speed, only to cut back due to the terrain or populated area, then accelerating again after the restriction is passed.. what does an engineer watch for to get thru this o.k.?

[edblysard]

Easy identifier, fuel tank on EMD is rounded on the sides, GE has sharp angler sides, with the air reservoir cut into a recession on one side.
EMDs are good looking, GE looks like a lego train.
Ed

[Anonymous]

Boy Kev, you really gave me the absolute red here. My mistake. And I appologize. To quote you, you wrote "No automatic break valve in locomotives." Well here is where you show your RRing superiority. And I am glad that I was set straight by you that there are NO automatic brake valves on a loco. Oh by the way Kev, have a great day.

[edblysard]

Throttle notches corrospond with pre-set universial engine rpm. Notch 4 on a GE is the same as notch 4 on a EMD. The prime mover, (diesel engine) turns the alternator via a direct drive shaft, more rpm = more amps, more amps= faster spin on traction motors.
Best anology I can come up with is your electric blender. It has 5 or 6 buttons, button 1 allows only a small portion or low amperage to flow to the motor, so it runs slow, button 5 allows all the amperage to go to the motor, it runs fast.
Load it up with bread dough(resistance) and try it on button one, it bogs down, so you "notch it up" to button 5 to get all the power to knead the dough. Same with a locomotive, notch 1 is low amps, notch 8 is top amperage. Once the train is moving, the resistance (inerita) is overcome, and less amperage is needed to keep it moving.
As for stress on the locomotive, these things are pretty tough, add to that the fact that most engineers know the terrain they run over better than you know the street you live on. They know when the grade increases, or rises, where it flows down hill slightly, and react accordingly. I rode with a UP crew once, when we reached track speed, 60 mph, the engineer almost never touched the throttle, he just applied the train brakes ever so gently to keep the train stretched out down hill, and let off the brake, increased the throttle one notch uphill, allowing the inerita to push us over the hills. I never once felt the slack run in hard enough to notice it more than a gentle nudge.
Good engineers know in advance when and where any sharp curves are, the strain on the locomotive is minimun, they allow the weight and mass of the train to work for them.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[edblysard]

Guess telling him what a independent and automatic brake valve is, and the difference between the two, would be a waste of time?
Ed

[Mookie]

Slofr8 - I loved your "splainen". It was just what I was looking for. I figured there wouldn't be just a certain notch, but hadn't quite figured out why. And I was looking for some kind of explanation on what determined the "notch".

We were watching a freight train coming in one day and he was getting pretty slow and suddenly had to come to a complete stop - I think he startled the whole neighborhood! I felt bad for him!

Thanx for info!

Jen

[Mookie]

Gentlemen: I appreciate all your answers. I think I now have some idea about the "notches".
Now I need to go and put all this information together.

Thanx

Jen

[Anonymous]

Yup, that's what I was thinking Ed. I guess that ol Kev really "dealt me an absolute red on this one." Maybe those GE units which means General Electric (thanks Kev for setting me straight on that one, pretty funny coming from somebody that cannot distinguish an EMD, Electromotive Division, from a GE) don't have automatic brake valves. I guess since automatic brake valves don't really exist, locomotive air brake tests just got shorter. Set up the ind. release. good to go!
Cheers Ken

[edblysard]

Guess your really shivering in your redwings now, having been dealt a absolute red by a expert. And yeah, I though it kinda odd a bigtime player like him cant tell the difference between EMD and GE, so I gave him a cheap hint. Wonder if he knows which end of the train the brakes start setting up from?
Whoops, that would require one of those non exsistent automatic brake valves...I forgot, we still have brakemen, using those running boards on top of the cars to run down the train, tieing hand brakes to slow it all down.
Wanna bet MR DOW(better living through chemicals)
has automatic train stop confused with automatic brake valve?
Stay Frosty,
Ed