Subway sandwiches on Amtrak, pressurized airplanes and Cub Scouts

[dldance]

When I travel long-distance by train, I expect a sleeper and a car attendant. I expect dining service (not a sandwich of a trolley). And I expect to pay about 3X the airline fares for the same distance. If I wanted to be packed into a narrow seat with 150 other passengers, eating a stale sandwich off a trolley - I would go by AIR and save money. I know that Amtrak is not the Super Chief - but it is all I have today.

And on shorter distances, I would rather have a fresh Subway sandwich than the premade thing I got on my last short Amtrak trip.

dd

[jeaton]

Don

If you want you can go on from now until the end of time, but you are still comparing apples to oranges, or in this case, freight cars to passenger cars.

You are also making some very grand assumptions using total head count of a freight railroad to a passenger railroad. About the only thing they have in common if 4' 8 1/2" . I might point out that the short distance trains run with a total of three crew, 4 if there is food and beverage service. If you want to call a long distance service without diner, sleepers, check baggage, and lounge efficient, be my guest. If you think all of the cost reduction will automaticly transmit to the bottom line, just hang on for a few years and see how it works out.

[TomDiehl]

You might as well compare trucks to busses. They haul a totally different type of payload.

If you're comparing train crews, the ones that are specific to the passenger operation have no equivalent on a freight train, therefore, no basis for comparison.

True, a locomotive is a locomotive, and requires periodic service and repair regardless of the horsepower. A 500 HP diesel will require the same number of oil changes, lubrications, inspections, etc, as a 5000 HP one will.

Amtrak is a $2 Billion company compared to a $7 Billion company doing completely different jobs. The only similarity is they both run on rails.

Under Gunn, the rules were changing for the better, and he did have an incentive to get more productive. The protective rules he had to work against greatly slowed the progress on this front.

Since Amtrak IS passenger railroading in the US, there really isn't anything else to compare it to.

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl

QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd
But, the payroll is still 2/3 of what NS's is when NS runs 5x more trains per day and maintains 10x more locomtives and 1000x more track miles than Amtrak. I can't think of a single basic industry that hasn't greatly increased labor productivity (or gone away) since the 1960s.

So, how about figuring out how to run the LD trains with a crew of 6, for starters. Engineer, Conductor, one or two trainmen, and......

That might be a valid comparison and work if the passengers didn't mind being packed into a boxcar with no food, bathrooms, or even windows.

The 60's would be a bad point of reference, at that point in history, most railroads had cut back services on passenger trains in an effort to kill them off.

I'm not sure how big the actual train crew is on an Amtrak train, but I doubt if it's more than 6 people. I've only ever seen the engineer and conductor. Most are the "hotel staff" type jobs.

By "crew" I meant all the Amtrak employees incl. car attendants, etc. I think your typical 10 car LD train will have an engineer, conductor, one or two trainmen, 3-5 dining car staff, one lounge car attendant, one attendant per sleeper and one attendant for every two coaches. For the Crescent, that would yield a count of 11 or 12.

And, I'll allow my comparison between NS and Amtrak isn't entirely fair, but 19,000 employees to run a measly 300 trains a day!

And, my comparison isn't as far out as it seems. Amtrak is a $2B company, NS is a $7B company.

A locomotive is a locomotive. Amtrak's do about double the mileage per year per loco as NS, but HP-hrs are the same.

NS has about 200,000 frt cars on line at any point in time to take car of. Amtrak has about 2000 pass cars. Even if a pass car requires the same maint as a locomotive, NS still has more locos than Amtrak has locos + cars.

NS has about 30,000 miles of track to take car of vs. 1500 or so for Amtrak.

Amtrak has resevations and ticketing, but NS has customer service, waybilling and revenue accouting. Call it a wash.

Both have puchasing, but NS buys more stuff.

Both have all the other regular G&A depts, Law, Accounting, etc. - call it a wash.

NS puts a two man crew on each of it's trains. Amtrak may have 3 or 4. But far, far, fewer trains.

If NS were run the way frt RRs were run in the 1960s, they'd have 50-60,000 employees, not the <30,000 on the payroll today.

Amtrak has never had the incentive to get more productive. So, running trains 1971-style is still "in". As you point out, the RRs did little in the 1960s with passenger service, so what you really have is 1950's style railroading.

The "cures" for this put out by the Fed DOT are really pretty silly, but the point being made isn't completely invalid. There are a couple of nice articles in Railway age about Amtrak. this month, but they're not available on line.

[edbenton]

When I drove truck I lost 7 hours waiting for a Laborer to move a drum out of the way so I could get loaded. It was empty so I could have moved it I went to move it out of the way and the fork lift driver goes not your job to move it. I asked him to move it he goes not my job. So I waited and waited the person was paged ime and time agin finally he showed up I asked him were he had been he goes on my break. I lost it I said you have been on a F###### break for 7 hours, he goes no I also had to go to the bathroom I called his supervisor over and went well I hope your company enjoys that 4 grand in detiontion time and the fact he just shut the plant down at the other end for 4 hours and the fine they will give you. The supervisor fird the guy on the spot and then his union rep comes up and said I am filing a grevience agansit the company to get his job back. I had to testify at it and needless to say the laborer lost his job. I alone got 2 grand of the detition time pay. The company was fined 75 grand for shutting down the plant and 4 grand in detition time all because I was not allowed to move a empty drum.

[TomDiehl]

QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd
But, the payroll is still 2/3 of what NS's is when NS runs 5x more trains per day and maintains 10x more locomtives and 1000x more track miles than Amtrak. I can't think of a single basic industry that hasn't greatly increased labor productivity (or gone away) since the 1960s.

So, how about figuring out how to run the LD trains with a crew of 6, for starters. Engineer, Conductor, one or two trainmen, and......

That might be a valid comparison and work if the passengers didn't mind being packed into a boxcar with no food, bathrooms, or even windows.

The 60's would be a bad point of reference, at that point in history, most railroads had cut back services on passenger trains in an effort to kill them off.

I'm not sure how big the actual train crew is on an Amtrak train, but I doubt if it's more than 6 people. I've only ever seen the engineer and conductor. Most are the "hotel staff" type jobs.

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton

QUOTE: Originally posted by RudyRockvilleMD

I personally experienced the food vending machine on the SP's Daylight in the 1960's. The vending machine was located in a lounge car. The passenger was supposed to be able to deposit money in the vending machine, and get the meal. But the machine didn't work so you had to give the attendant money, and he unlocked the machine to allow you t get the meal.

Why would a short trip like New York - Albany need a cafe car?. A refreshment cart or trolley would be all that would be needed. They use refreshment carts frequently on trains with short runs in Great Britain and Europe. Granted the cart may not have as great a variety in food or sandwiches as you might find in a cafe car.

I agree with Randy Stahl !!!!!

I think that Amtrak's decision to pull the lounge car service on these trains is fairly indicative that the service had little or no impact on ridership. If such is the case, why even bother with a cart. Riders can easily do what commuters will do. Grab something to go. On the other hand, if Subway or anybody else can make a profit providing a service on a short run train like this, well go for it.

As I've said, it is just not going to be as easy as one might think.

I agree it won't be easy - or simple - or painless. But, Amtrak HAS to greatly improve labor productivity if there is going to be a chance of saving the LD trains with sleeper and food service. You simply can't have a 10 car LD train with 150 passengers on board at any one time and a crew of 12. That just won't work. The status-quo is a non-starter.

Amtrak's labor productivity is horrendous. They HAVE reduced payroll by 5000 (about 20%) in the past couple of years w/o cutting service 20% - in fact, they are carrying MORE passengers. So, what was the "value added" of those 5000? But, the payroll is still 2/3 of what NS's is when NS runs 5x more trains per day and maintains 10x more locomtives and 1000x more track miles than Amtrak. I can't think of a single basic industry that hasn't greatly increased labor productivity (or gone away) since the 1960s.

So, how about figuring out how to run the LD trains with a crew of 6, for starters. Engineer, Conductor, one or two trainmen, and......

[TomDiehl]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton

QUOTE: Originally posted by RudyRockvilleMD

I personally experienced the food vending machine on the SP's Daylight in the 1960's. The vending machine was located in a lounge car. The passenger was supposed to be able to deposit money in the vending machine, and get the meal. But the machine didn't work so you had to give the attendant money, and he unlocked the machine to allow you t get the meal.

Why would a short trip like New York - Albany need a cafe car?. A refreshment cart or trolley would be all that would be needed. They use refreshment carts frequently on trains with short runs in Great Britain and Europe. Granted the cart may not have as great a variety in food or sandwiches as you might find in a cafe car.

I agree with Randy Stahl !!!!!

I think that Amtrak's decision to pull the lounge car service on these trains is fairly indicative that the service had little or no impact on ridership. If such is the case, why even bother with a cart. Riders can easily do what commuters will do. Grab something to go. On the other hand, if Subway or anybody else can make a profit providing a service on a short run train like this, well go for it.

As I've said, it is just not going to be as easy as one might think.

Not just that, but there's always reports that food service on the trains costs more than it makes. Subway was supposed to return a percentage of the receipts to Amtrak for the use of the train facilities. It may have been a small amount, but at least it would be on the positive side of the equation.

The main union fear is that this will be a "foot in the door" for contracting out the food (and other) services on more of the trains.

[jeaton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by RudyRockvilleMD

I personally experienced the food vending machine on the SP's Daylight in the 1960's. The vending machine was located in a lounge car. The passenger was supposed to be able to deposit money in the vending machine, and get the meal. But the machine didn't work so you had to give the attendant money, and he unlocked the machine to allow you t get the meal.

Why would a short trip like New York - Albany need a cafe car?. A refreshment cart or trolley would be all that would be needed. They use refreshment carts frequently on trains with short runs in Great Britain and Europe. Granted the cart may not have as great a variety in food or sandwiches as you might find in a cafe car.

I agree with Randy Stahl !!!!!

I think that Amtrak's decision to pull the lounge car service on these trains is fairly indicative that the service had little or no impact on ridership. If such is the case, why even bother with a cart. Riders can easily do what commuters will do. Grab something to go. On the other hand, if Subway or anybody else can make a profit providing a service on a short run train like this, well go for it.

As I've said, it is just not going to be as easy as one might think.

[jeaton]

I am not surprised that the Union would be opposed to out sourcing. There doesn't seem to have been a certain threat of job action, but I don't think the that the union has to inform the public if such action is on their mind. Could be that the union informed management that a strike would be on the table, but I wonder if that is actually the governing issue. Amtrak Chairman Laney's comment to Trains Magazine Bob Johnston that the project is under review sure doesn't say much.

As I said when I started this topic, REFORM doesn't come easy. If there is a person at Amtrak who thought this pilot project could go with out ANY protest by the Union, we can say for certain that we have found someone that fell off the turnip truck just yesterday.

Jay

[RudyRockvilleMD]

I personally experienced the food vending machine on the SP's Daylight in the 1960's. The vending machine was located in a lounge car. The passenger was supposed to be able to deposit money in the vending machine, and get the meal. But the machine didn't work so you had to give the attendant money, and he unlocked the machine to allow you t get the meal.

Why would a short trip like New York - Albany need a cafe car?. A refreshment cart or trolley would be all that would be needed. They use refreshment carts frequently on trains with short runs in Great Britain and Europe. Granted the cart may not have as great a variety in food or sandwiches as you might find in a cafe car.

I agree with Randy Stahl !!!!!

[Anonymous]

Here's the rest of the union story.

Union opposes Subway food service on trains
(The following article by eric Anderson was posted on the Albany Times Union website on November 30.)

RENSSELAER, N.Y. -- A leafleting campaign by unionized Amtrak workers apparently brought a quick end to an effort by Subway to offer onboard food service.

Subway stopped providing food on trains running exclusively between Rensselaer and New York City last week, six days into a four-month pilot project.

On Tuesday, one of the Subway franchisees providing the service, Bob Hurley, said he'd like to resume food service on the trains. But a union official, Gary Maslanka, said his members remain opposed to the project.

Amtrak ended its own food service on trains originating or terminating in Rensselaer last July. An Amtrak spokesman at the time said the move would save $1 million a year.

Sixteen unionized members were affected, but most were offered other positions within Amtrak.

Union officials argued their members had qualifications -- training in safety and security issues -- that went beyond food service, and they were there to help out in an emergency.

"There is no comparison between well-paid, well-trained" Amtrak employees and the Subway workers who replaced them, said Maslanka, chairman of the Amtrak Service Workers Council and director of the railroad division for the Transport Workers Union. "We are definitely opposed to Subway workers providing service that our members have provided for years.

"It's a step in the wrong direction," he added.

Amtrak announced the pilot program earlier this month as a way to restore some food service while at the same time not incurring additional losses for the railroad.
Subway's Hurley declined to talk about the specific reasons his franchise ended its service on the trains. He said, however, that he was happy with the reception received from passengers.

"We're just trying to work through things," he said. "We went in hoping this would be a long-term commitment."

Under the Amtrak deal, Subway paid the passenger railroad a portion of its proceeds. Subway used Amtrak's cafe cars, and a worker went through the coaches delivering food to travelers.

One Los Angeles resident, who e-mailed the Times Union saying he was aboard a northbound train last week when the leafleting took place, said he was charged $2 for a bottle of water, even though he was in business class, where beverages previously had been free.

He also said passengers received two leaflets, one that said the Subway service was taking away union jobs, and the other saying the service was creating a safety issue for passengers.

From BLET Site

[jeaton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Randy Stahl

I'll bet if Hooters was in the mix there would be very little opposition . If not subway ......HOOTERS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now that would be real reform....EMAIL AMTRAK CHAIRMAN LANEY!!!!

[Randy Stahl]

I'll bet if Hooters was in the mix there would be very little opposition . If not subway ......HOOTERS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Dutchrailnut

One can blame Union all they want, its Amtrak breaking the Labor contract.
If you got a labor contract that is valid for X amount of years it can not be broken by bringing in outside sources.
The Railway labor act specificaly states no changes in contract and no section six notices till 6 months before contract expires.
If no new contract is signed a status quo holds the old contract as governing document.
Amtrak was about to be getting a rude awakening, not by union workers but by courts for having managers with no brains. See:
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode45/usc_sup_01_45_10_8_20_I.html

At the risk of sounding lawyerly...lol...

The Railway labor Act does not provide for a six month period for notices it actually provides for only "at least thirty days written notice".

Here is the full text of the section known as "Section 6", which is actually Section 156 of the Act:

<<<
§ 156. Procedure in changing rates of pay, rules, and working conditions


Release date: 2005-03-01

Carriers and representatives of the employees shall give at least thirty days’ written notice of an intended change in agreements affecting rates of pay, rules, or working conditions, and the time and place for the beginning of conference between the representatives of the parties interested in such intended changes shall be agreed upon within ten days after the receipt of said notice, and said time shall be within the thirty days provided in the notice. In every case where such notice of intended change has been given, or conferences are being held with reference thereto, or the services of the Mediation Board have been requested by either party, or said Board has proffered its services, rates of pay, rules, or working conditions shall not be altered by the carrier until the controversy has been finally acted upon, as required by section 155 of this title, by the Mediation Board, unless a period of ten days has elapsed after termination of conferences without request for or proffer of the services of the Mediation Board.

>>>

If in fact the Amtrak union agreements call for six months notice this might be contained in the agreement itself, but not in the Railway labor Act.

LC

[TomDiehl]

QUOTE: Originally posted by PigFarmer1

Originally posted by Limitedclear

There has been speculation in the press that issues may have arisen with the Amtrak union for the onboard crews who have lost their jobs when Amtrak cut food service on the Renssalaer based crews. Presumably objections have been raised to non-union Subway employees providing food service on those trains.

See this article from the Albany Times Union for example:

http://www.ble.org/pr/news/headline.asp?id=15037

LC

As someone who has no intentions of ever riding Amtrak again after so many experiences with terrible "service" let me ask this question: Were Amtrak kitchen employees ever put out by having to operate can openers in order to serve the Franco American spaghetti slop that they supposedly cooked onboard the train??? Food for thought (NO pun intended). Some of the worst food I've ver eaten was consumed on Amtrak. Seems to me that Subway would be a big step up from the culinary garbagr normally served by Amtrak.

Unfortunately the link here is word-for-word of the one in the original post, although different sources.

Pigfarmer, I don't know what Amtrak trains you have eaten on, but in my experience (August of this year), the food in the Dining Car on a long distance train can easily rival the best restaurants. The food is prepared on board, unlike an airline where you get a newer version of a TV dinner. And usually not as good as the Swanson version.

The Subway contract was to place a rudimentary food service on the shorter distance trains. New York City to Albany is about 2-1/2 hours. I believe that Amtrak had recently dropped the Cafe car (still better than airline food) on these routes and wanted something to replace it for the convenience of the passengers without the financial loss to the company.

I believe there's still more to the story.

Smile, it makes people wonder what you're up to. Chief of Sanitation; Clowntown

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