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Originally posted by Limitedclear There has been speculation in the press that issues may have arisen with the Amtrak union for the onboard crews who have lost their jobs when Amtrak cut food service on the Renssalaer based crews. Presumably objections have been raised to non-union Subway employees providing food service on those trains. See this article from the Albany Times Union for example: http://www.ble.org/pr/news/headline.asp?id=15037 LC As someone who has no intentions of ever riding Amtrak again after so many experiences with terrible "service" let me ask this question: Were Amtrak kitchen employees ever put out by having to operate can openers in order to serve the Franco American spaghetti slop that they supposedly cooked onboard the train??? Food for thought (NO pun intended). Some of the worst food I've ver eaten was consumed on Amtrak. Seems to me that Subway would be a big step up from the culinary garbagr normally served by Amtrak. MoW employee Reply RudyRockvilleMD Member sinceSeptember 2001 From: US 1,015 posts Posted by RudyRockvilleMD on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 8:52 PM I understand there is a new firm that will provide in-flight food service. it's called "ELEVATED". I couldn't resist that one. As I am typing this i noticed an ad for buying a "Subway: Franchise on-line. Is Amtrak interested? Reply jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 9:03 PM PigFarmer-I also find that the food is much better on my jet, my luxury bus and my private rail car. On the other hand, I can't say much about food service on commercial jets and Greyhound buses. When was spaghetti on the Amtrak menu? LC - Entirely possible that the non-union labor is an issue, but I note that Amtrak's PR guy had no comment on that question. The article you cited was the same one posted on the UTU site. A Google search at this time did not turn up anything more on the subject.. From personal experience in commercial food preparation and service (NOT McDonalds), I know that it is *** hard work, even when the facility is fixed on solid ground. I have no objection to pilot projects such as this to determine the feasibility of a less expensive method of providing food service on trains, but I submit that it may not be as easy as some may think. I will await some explanation from the principals. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply Mookie Member sinceJune 2001 From: US 13,488 posts Posted by Mookie on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 6:20 AM Ah Jay - you hit a spot close to my heart. Any restaurant work - if done right - is very hard work and stressful. But Subway seems a good solution (excluding unions and former employees argument) - from the standpoint - our Subway's are in gas stations. So when you think about it - they need a small warming oven - think alto-sham. They would need refrigeration and a small oven to bake the bread. Same as in a gas station. They can set up their kitchen buffet style, just like now and don't need a cash register. The space needed is quite small and would fit the needs. A week isn't enough time to decide if it would work or not, so I don't think no interest is the problem. I think it is a good idea - and if not Subway - any deli style would have worked. And there is usually a can opener on hand, somewhere. How about a microwave and a boxed dinner? Or don't they allow microwaves on trains? Mookie She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw Reply oltmannd Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: Atlanta 11,971 posts Posted by oltmannd on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 7:35 AM I'll bet the labor issue is pretty big. Gunn had said that part of the problem with Amtrak was that "skilled" and "unskilled" labor both had high pay. He elaborated that a guy serving sandwiches in the cafe got the roughly the same pay as an electician and he thought that was unfair. Have read elsewhere that there was likely some threats against the Subway workers both at thier work place and at home. Bad behavior like this is what helps give unions a bad name. A little self-policing might help. Amtrak HAS to become more labor dollar productive if they want to have any chance of keeping the national network together. It's a shame that the union help has priced themselves out of the market. The average train traveller doesn't care about the division of labor between crafts. When they go to a hotel and need more towels after hours, the front desk will provide even though it isn't their official duty. If they're any good, they'll deliver them to the room. It's just good business. When they're at Target and the checkout lines get long, they pull immediately from all over the store to open other lanes. When UPS has to deliver all those Christmas packages, they pull from office staff to man the package cars and sorting centers. It's never "not their job". To the travelling public, everyone is just an Amtrak employee. An elderly traveller who needs his bed put down and asks the trainman for help shouldn't be told call for the car attendant. If the line is long in the cafe car and the conductor is just hanging out waiting for the next stop, he should lend a hand. So, why can't the trainman or conductor help out in the diner? Or help make up beds? Or carry a passenger's bags? Or do a little cleaning up in the cafe car? Why can't the onboard staff help the train crew at a heavily patronized stop? Why are tickets on reserved trains collected onboard? Why is the onboard staff on 24x7 but the train crew is replaced every district? Maybe if you modified the work rules and rotated the staff every district, you could reduce the total onboard crew from 12 to 6 on most LD trains, be able to drop the crew dorm car and give the LD trains a fighting chance. How great a deal are those "free" breakfasts at motels these days? They have popped up all over the place. They are terriffic when you're travelling with family - save you $20 it would cost for the same meal at fast food. They usually have one person running the show and they can feed the entire motel full of people in a fairly small place. Why couldn't Amtrak do something like that? -Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/) Reply Dutchrailnut Member sinceMarch 2005 From: Brewster, NY 648 posts Posted by Dutchrailnut on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 8:19 AM One can blame Union all they want, its Amtrak breaking the Labor contract. If you got a labor contract that is valid for X amount of years it can not be broken by bringing in outside sources. The Railway labor act specificaly states no changes in contract and no section six notices till 6 months before contract expires. If no new contract is signed a status quo holds the old contract as governing document. Amtrak was about to be getting a rude awakening, not by union workers but by courts for having managers with no brains. See: http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode45/usc_sup_01_45_10_8_20_I.html Reply jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 8:43 AM Union work rules have long been a barrier to productivity improvements in railroads as well as other unionized industries. There have been some improvments at Amtrak and there have been reductions in crew sizes on Amtrak trains. The dining cars have 5 person crews, 2 kitchen and 3 serving. As I watch these crews work, I do not believe that the "full service" diner could be run with less people and still have a reasonable level of service. The lounge cars offer just about what you might find in convenience stores: Beverages, snack items, cold sandwhiches and hot sandwhiches, soup, pizza and some other microwaveable items. One person runs this service. Beside prep and serving, that person is manager, stocker, cashier and clean-up person. The lounge attendant (and dining crew) will report to work an hour or two before train departure. Enroute the lounge will open at 6am and close at midnight and is closed for short periods while the attendant takes meal breaks. The dining crew, lounge and car attendants are not subject to the hours of service laws, and work a train from initial terminal to final destination. I don't know what the pay rates are, but I guarantee you that the minimum wage is NOT going to attract people who are willing to work the hours and have the away from home schedule required by these jobs. By the way, it occured to me that an additional possible reason for stopping of the pilot project may be the terms of the contract with the outside company that runs the commissary service for Amtrak. It has been criticized as a bad deal for Amtrak. Question not answered: Does this contract grant the outside company the exclusive Amtrak system wide right to do the food, beverage and supply acquisition and storage function? Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply oltmannd Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: Atlanta 11,971 posts Posted by oltmannd on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 10:56 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Dutchrailnut One can blame Union all they want, its Amtrak breaking the Labor contract. If you got a labor contract that is valid for X amount of years it can not be broken by bringing in outside sources. The Railway labor act specificaly states no changes in contract and no section six notices till 6 months before contract expires. If no new contract is signed a status quo holds the old contract as governing document. Amtrak was about to be getting a rude awakening, not by union workers but by courts for having managers with no brains. See: http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode45/usc_sup_01_45_10_8_20_I.html So, both labor and mgt could safely sit in the deck chairs as the Titanic sinks and smuggly claim "Not MY fault!" Maybe it's time to allow "self help" and let a PEB sort things out. I wonder how friendly a PEB would be to Amtrak. hmmmm. -Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/) Reply oltmannd Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: Atlanta 11,971 posts Posted by oltmannd on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 11:25 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton Union work rules have long been a barrier to productivity improvements in railroads as well as other unionized industries. There have been some improvments at Amtrak and there have been reductions in crew sizes on Amtrak trains. The dining cars have 5 person crews, 2 kitchen and 3 serving. As I watch these crews work, I do not believe that the "full service" diner could be run with less people and still have a reasonable level of service. The lounge cars offer just about what you might find in convenience stores: Beverages, snack items, cold sandwhiches and hot sandwhiches, soup, pizza and some other microwaveable items. One person runs this service. Beside prep and serving, that person is manager, stocker, cashier and clean-up person. The lounge attendant (and dining crew) will report to work an hour or two before train departure. Enroute the lounge will open at 6am and close at midnight and is closed for short periods while the attendant takes meal breaks. The dining crew, lounge and car attendants are not subject to the hours of service laws, and work a train from initial terminal to final destination. I don't know what the pay rates are, but I guarantee you that the minimum wage is NOT going to attract people who are willing to work the hours and have the away from home schedule required by these jobs. By the way, it occured to me that an additional possible reason for stopping of the pilot project may be the terms of the contract with the outside company that runs the commissary service for Amtrak. It has been criticized as a bad deal for Amtrak. Question not answered: Does this contract grant the outside company the exclusive Amtrak system wide right to do the food, beverage and supply acquisition and storage function? Jay Just some thoughts: Why is there cooking and serving in diners? What if you could do the job 90% as well for 1/2 the cost by delivering food to the train enroute? You might even be able to greatly expand the variety food offered by contracting with various national chains - Outback, Red Lobster, Applebees, etc. Or, you could contract with some good local restaurants and keep some local flavor. No reason orders couldn't be called in a few hours ahead. Why are there servers on the train 24x7 when they are only active to serve 3 meals? Why are there servers at all? I can carry a burger, soda and chips through 5 cars back to my coach seat, but I can't carry a meal tray 30 ft to my table? In a conv. store, I get my own stuff and take it to a cashier. Why does the cafe car attendant get paid, and paid a lot more than a conv. store clerk, for turning around, opening a door and handing me a bag of chips? Or handing me a can of soda? A vending maching can do that. Why can't a car attendant stand in for the lounge car attendant during his meal breaks? Why can't the car attendant and the dining car servers be the same people? Why do the attendants work terminal to terminal? The pool of willing workers might be greater if they worked crew districts (or similar). The place to start looking for business models for sleepers and diners is the motel and restaurant industry. Benchmark against those guys. Find the best practices. And forget about 1950. -Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/) Reply jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 12:35 PM Don Your ideas are worthy of consideration, and it is likly that many have been considered. I wouldn't automaticly dismiss the idea that educated, trained and experienced motel, hotel and restaurant industry people have been involved in decision making process for Amtrak's food and sleeper service. I will suggest a couple of things for your consideration. Hotels, motels and restaurants don't move. Vending machines were tried many years ago by the SP. They didn't work. If you want to set up districts so Amtrak onboard service personnel don't work through, you have to deal with away from home layovers and the possibility of a crew member not being available at a district point. I'll bet that Amtrak would actually prefer to have T&E employees work through. I have seen lounge, dining and car attendants do at least a little work exchange. One small example is the delivery of dining car meals to sleeping car passengers at their rooms as worked performed by other than the dining car servers. You may be able to handle a tray of food on a train moving at 80MPH on less than top grade track, but that is not something everybody can do. "Oh gee, I am really sorry about dumping my supper in your lap." "Not to worry, I expect that to happen when I ride on trains." Service from a restaurant next to the depot? Guess how this announcement files. "Due to the delay caused by the BNSF frieght train dinner will be served when we arrive at Timbucto at 11pm. Thankyou for your patience." By the way, Gunn acknowledged that there were problems with the commisary contract that he inherited, and would have probably moved to make it more favorable to Amtrak. Furthermore, food service has been reduced or eliminated where it appeared that the cost did not seem to be justified by the impact it would have on ridership. Sad to say (for me), I think that Amtrak will now move to take off more of the dining service. Could be an excellent businees oppurtunity for someone. A cheap fixed facility if you don't count the cost of handicap access equipment. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply TomDiehl Member sinceFebruary 2001 From: Poconos, PA 3,948 posts Posted by TomDiehl on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 12:56 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd If the line is long in the cafe car and the conductor is just hanging out waiting for the next stop, he should lend a hand. Unfortunately, this one point, suggested by others in this string, wouldn't be workable. There are regulations in most states defining how a "food handling employee" has to be dressed, trained, and properly hygenic. Think about it: would you want a Conductor that was just working on the brake hoses between the cars serving food in the same clothes he was wearing then, even if he washed his hands? Smile, it makes people wonder what you're up to. Chief of Sanitation; Clowntown Reply oltmannd Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: Atlanta 11,971 posts Posted by oltmannd on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 1:31 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton Don Your ideas are worthy of consideration, and it is likly that many have been considered. I wouldn't automaticly dismiss the idea that educated, trained and experienced motel, hotel and restaurant industry people have been involved in decision making process for Amtrak's food and sleeper service. I will suggest a couple of things for your consideration. Hotels, motels and restaurants don't move. Vending machines were tried many years ago by the SP. They didn't work. If you want to set up districts so Amtrak onboard service personnel don't work through, you have to deal with away from home layovers and the possibility of a crew member not being available at a district point. I'll bet that Amtrak would actually prefer to have T&E employees work through. I have seen lounge, dining and car attendants do at least a little work exchange. One small example is the delivery of dining car meals to sleeping car passengers at their rooms as worked performed by other than the dining car servers. You may be able to handle a tray of food on a train moving at 80MPH on less than top grade track, but that is not something everybody can do. "Oh gee, I am really sorry about dumping my supper in your lap." "Not to worry, I expect that to happen when I ride on trains." Service from a restaurant next to the depot? Guess how this announcement files. "Due to the delay caused by the BNSF frieght train dinner will be served when we arrive at Timbucto at 11pm. Thankyou for your patience." By the way, Gunn acknowledged that there were problems with the commisary contract that he inherited, and would have probably moved to make it more favorable to Amtrak. Furthermore, food service has been reduced or eliminated where it appeared that the cost did not seem to be justified by the impact it would have on ridership. Sad to say (for me), I think that Amtrak will now move to take off more of the dining service. Could be an excellent businees oppurtunity for someone. A cheap fixed facility if you don't count the cost of handicap access equipment. Jay I'll play counterpoint: Amtrak COULD have done some benchmarking or have some expertise in-house, but, then maybe not. I don't know, but, it sure looks like they are benchmarking against 1950s streamliners, not modern restaurants, though. If they were, then why the need to sub out to Subway? What is the relevance of moving vs. non moving? What can't I do in a train that I can do in a hotel because I am moving? Everybody has to carry their own food away from the lounge car. Why not the diner, too? I could design a tray that is easy to handle and package so it won't spill - and I'm not particularly gifted at that sort of thing. You COULD have someone carry the food for those who want help. That would take less staff than carrying everyone's food. Where and from whom you order would have to be somewhat flexible to fit timekeeping. If you're running late, you order from vendors a stop or two earlier in the schedule. Or the vendor drives to where the trains is - or will be shortly. Keeping food hot and/or reheating is not trivial, but is doable. Even with the current lousy timekeeping, there are ways to make this work if you want to. SP tried vending machines in the 1960s - they "didn't work". Why not? No reason to think 1970 marked the high water mark for vending machine technology. Even if you don't use machines, you could make cafes more - or - less self serve - like a convenience store. Messing with air hoses is probably more sanitary than going to the bathroom - but we let food service employees do that. Soap, water and a smock and the trainman is good to go in the cafe car. Besides, how often does an Amtrak conductor have to mess with the undercar equipment? Training? McDonalds serves food. How hard can the training be? ...and your announcement should be a UP frt train[:D] -Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/) Reply TomDiehl Member sinceFebruary 2001 From: Poconos, PA 3,948 posts Posted by TomDiehl on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 3:40 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd Messing with air hoses is probably more sanitary than going to the bathroom - but we let food service employees do that. Soap, water and a smock and the trainman is good to go in the cafe car. Besides, how often does an Amtrak conductor have to mess with the undercar equipment? Training? McDonalds serves food. How hard can the training be? "How difficult" doesn't really matter if it's required by law to be "certified." The air hoses was just an example that is within a Conductor's job description. Smile, it makes people wonder what you're up to. Chief of Sanitation; Clowntown Reply TomDiehl Member sinceFebruary 2001 From: Poconos, PA 3,948 posts Posted by TomDiehl on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 3:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by PigFarmer1 Originally posted by Limitedclear There has been speculation in the press that issues may have arisen with the Amtrak union for the onboard crews who have lost their jobs when Amtrak cut food service on the Renssalaer based crews. Presumably objections have been raised to non-union Subway employees providing food service on those trains. See this article from the Albany Times Union for example: http://www.ble.org/pr/news/headline.asp?id=15037 LC As someone who has no intentions of ever riding Amtrak again after so many experiences with terrible "service" let me ask this question: Were Amtrak kitchen employees ever put out by having to operate can openers in order to serve the Franco American spaghetti slop that they supposedly cooked onboard the train??? Food for thought (NO pun intended). Some of the worst food I've ver eaten was consumed on Amtrak. Seems to me that Subway would be a big step up from the culinary garbagr normally served by Amtrak. Unfortunately the link here is word-for-word of the one in the original post, although different sources. Pigfarmer, I don't know what Amtrak trains you have eaten on, but in my experience (August of this year), the food in the Dining Car on a long distance train can easily rival the best restaurants. The food is prepared on board, unlike an airline where you get a newer version of a TV dinner. And usually not as good as the Swanson version. The Subway contract was to place a rudimentary food service on the shorter distance trains. New York City to Albany is about 2-1/2 hours. I believe that Amtrak had recently dropped the Cafe car (still better than airline food) on these routes and wanted something to replace it for the convenience of the passengers without the financial loss to the company. I believe there's still more to the story. Smile, it makes people wonder what you're up to. Chief of Sanitation; Clowntown Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 4:26 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Dutchrailnut One can blame Union all they want, its Amtrak breaking the Labor contract. If you got a labor contract that is valid for X amount of years it can not be broken by bringing in outside sources. The Railway labor act specificaly states no changes in contract and no section six notices till 6 months before contract expires. If no new contract is signed a status quo holds the old contract as governing document. Amtrak was about to be getting a rude awakening, not by union workers but by courts for having managers with no brains. See: http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode45/usc_sup_01_45_10_8_20_I.html At the risk of sounding lawyerly...lol... The Railway labor Act does not provide for a six month period for notices it actually provides for only "at least thirty days written notice". Here is the full text of the section known as "Section 6", which is actually Section 156 of the Act: <<< § 156. Procedure in changing rates of pay, rules, and working conditions Release date: 2005-03-01 Carriers and representatives of the employees shall give at least thirty days’ written notice of an intended change in agreements affecting rates of pay, rules, or working conditions, and the time and place for the beginning of conference between the representatives of the parties interested in such intended changes shall be agreed upon within ten days after the receipt of said notice, and said time shall be within the thirty days provided in the notice. In every case where such notice of intended change has been given, or conferences are being held with reference thereto, or the services of the Mediation Board have been requested by either party, or said Board has proffered its services, rates of pay, rules, or working conditions shall not be altered by the carrier until the controversy has been finally acted upon, as required by section 155 of this title, by the Mediation Board, unless a period of ten days has elapsed after termination of conferences without request for or proffer of the services of the Mediation Board. >>> If in fact the Amtrak union agreements call for six months notice this might be contained in the agreement itself, but not in the Railway labor Act. LC Reply Edit Randy Stahl Member sinceJune 2004 From: roundhouse 2,747 posts Posted by Randy Stahl on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 5:07 PM I'll bet if Hooters was in the mix there would be very little opposition . If not subway ......HOOTERS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Reply jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 9:24 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Randy Stahl I'll bet if Hooters was in the mix there would be very little opposition . If not subway ......HOOTERS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now that would be real reform....EMAIL AMTRAK CHAIRMAN LANEY!!!! "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 9:40 PM Here's the rest of the union story. Union opposes Subway food service on trains (The following article by eric Anderson was posted on the Albany Times Union website on November 30.) RENSSELAER, N.Y. -- A leafleting campaign by unionized Amtrak workers apparently brought a quick end to an effort by Subway to offer onboard food service. Subway stopped providing food on trains running exclusively between Rensselaer and New York City last week, six days into a four-month pilot project. On Tuesday, one of the Subway franchisees providing the service, Bob Hurley, said he'd like to resume food service on the trains. But a union official, Gary Maslanka, said his members remain opposed to the project. Amtrak ended its own food service on trains originating or terminating in Rensselaer last July. An Amtrak spokesman at the time said the move would save $1 million a year. Sixteen unionized members were affected, but most were offered other positions within Amtrak. Union officials argued their members had qualifications -- training in safety and security issues -- that went beyond food service, and they were there to help out in an emergency. "There is no comparison between well-paid, well-trained" Amtrak employees and the Subway workers who replaced them, said Maslanka, chairman of the Amtrak Service Workers Council and director of the railroad division for the Transport Workers Union. "We are definitely opposed to Subway workers providing service that our members have provided for years. "It's a step in the wrong direction," he added. Amtrak announced the pilot program earlier this month as a way to restore some food service while at the same time not incurring additional losses for the railroad. Subway's Hurley declined to talk about the specific reasons his franchise ended its service on the trains. He said, however, that he was happy with the reception received from passengers. "We're just trying to work through things," he said. "We went in hoping this would be a long-term commitment." Under the Amtrak deal, Subway paid the passenger railroad a portion of its proceeds. Subway used Amtrak's cafe cars, and a worker went through the coaches delivering food to travelers. One Los Angeles resident, who e-mailed the Times Union saying he was aboard a northbound train last week when the leafleting took place, said he was charged $2 for a bottle of water, even though he was in business class, where beverages previously had been free. He also said passengers received two leaflets, one that said the Subway service was taking away union jobs, and the other saying the service was creating a safety issue for passengers. From BLET Site Reply Edit RudyRockvilleMD Member sinceSeptember 2001 From: US 1,015 posts Posted by RudyRockvilleMD on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 9:45 PM I personally experienced the food vending machine on the SP's Daylight in the 1960's. The vending machine was located in a lounge car. The passenger was supposed to be able to deposit money in the vending machine, and get the meal. But the machine didn't work so you had to give the attendant money, and he unlocked the machine to allow you t get the meal. Why would a short trip like New York - Albany need a cafe car?. A refreshment cart or trolley would be all that would be needed. They use refreshment carts frequently on trains with short runs in Great Britain and Europe. Granted the cart may not have as great a variety in food or sandwiches as you might find in a cafe car. I agree with Randy Stahl !!!!! Reply jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 11:37 PM I am not surprised that the Union would be opposed to out sourcing. There doesn't seem to have been a certain threat of job action, but I don't think the that the union has to inform the public if such action is on their mind. Could be that the union informed management that a strike would be on the table, but I wonder if that is actually the governing issue. Amtrak Chairman Laney's comment to Trains Magazine Bob Johnston that the project is under review sure doesn't say much. As I said when I started this topic, REFORM doesn't come easy. If there is a person at Amtrak who thought this pilot project could go with out ANY protest by the Union, we can say for certain that we have found someone that fell off the turnip truck just yesterday. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 11:45 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by RudyRockvilleMD I personally experienced the food vending machine on the SP's Daylight in the 1960's. The vending machine was located in a lounge car. The passenger was supposed to be able to deposit money in the vending machine, and get the meal. But the machine didn't work so you had to give the attendant money, and he unlocked the machine to allow you t get the meal. Why would a short trip like New York - Albany need a cafe car?. A refreshment cart or trolley would be all that would be needed. They use refreshment carts frequently on trains with short runs in Great Britain and Europe. Granted the cart may not have as great a variety in food or sandwiches as you might find in a cafe car. I agree with Randy Stahl !!!!! I think that Amtrak's decision to pull the lounge car service on these trains is fairly indicative that the service had little or no impact on ridership. If such is the case, why even bother with a cart. Riders can easily do what commuters will do. Grab something to go. On the other hand, if Subway or anybody else can make a profit providing a service on a short run train like this, well go for it. As I've said, it is just not going to be as easy as one might think. "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply TomDiehl Member sinceFebruary 2001 From: Poconos, PA 3,948 posts Posted by TomDiehl on Thursday, December 1, 2005 6:24 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton QUOTE: Originally posted by RudyRockvilleMD I personally experienced the food vending machine on the SP's Daylight in the 1960's. The vending machine was located in a lounge car. The passenger was supposed to be able to deposit money in the vending machine, and get the meal. But the machine didn't work so you had to give the attendant money, and he unlocked the machine to allow you t get the meal. Why would a short trip like New York - Albany need a cafe car?. A refreshment cart or trolley would be all that would be needed. They use refreshment carts frequently on trains with short runs in Great Britain and Europe. Granted the cart may not have as great a variety in food or sandwiches as you might find in a cafe car. I agree with Randy Stahl !!!!! I think that Amtrak's decision to pull the lounge car service on these trains is fairly indicative that the service had little or no impact on ridership. If such is the case, why even bother with a cart. Riders can easily do what commuters will do. Grab something to go. On the other hand, if Subway or anybody else can make a profit providing a service on a short run train like this, well go for it. As I've said, it is just not going to be as easy as one might think. Not just that, but there's always reports that food service on the trains costs more than it makes. Subway was supposed to return a percentage of the receipts to Amtrak for the use of the train facilities. It may have been a small amount, but at least it would be on the positive side of the equation. The main union fear is that this will be a "foot in the door" for contracting out the food (and other) services on more of the trains. Smile, it makes people wonder what you're up to. Chief of Sanitation; Clowntown Reply oltmannd Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: Atlanta 11,971 posts Posted by oltmannd on Thursday, December 1, 2005 7:32 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton QUOTE: Originally posted by RudyRockvilleMD I personally experienced the food vending machine on the SP's Daylight in the 1960's. The vending machine was located in a lounge car. The passenger was supposed to be able to deposit money in the vending machine, and get the meal. But the machine didn't work so you had to give the attendant money, and he unlocked the machine to allow you t get the meal. Why would a short trip like New York - Albany need a cafe car?. A refreshment cart or trolley would be all that would be needed. They use refreshment carts frequently on trains with short runs in Great Britain and Europe. Granted the cart may not have as great a variety in food or sandwiches as you might find in a cafe car. I agree with Randy Stahl !!!!! I think that Amtrak's decision to pull the lounge car service on these trains is fairly indicative that the service had little or no impact on ridership. If such is the case, why even bother with a cart. Riders can easily do what commuters will do. Grab something to go. On the other hand, if Subway or anybody else can make a profit providing a service on a short run train like this, well go for it. As I've said, it is just not going to be as easy as one might think. I agree it won't be easy - or simple - or painless. But, Amtrak HAS to greatly improve labor productivity if there is going to be a chance of saving the LD trains with sleeper and food service. You simply can't have a 10 car LD train with 150 passengers on board at any one time and a crew of 12. That just won't work. The status-quo is a non-starter. Amtrak's labor productivity is horrendous. They HAVE reduced payroll by 5000 (about 20%) in the past couple of years w/o cutting service 20% - in fact, they are carrying MORE passengers. So, what was the "value added" of those 5000? But, the payroll is still 2/3 of what NS's is when NS runs 5x more trains per day and maintains 10x more locomtives and 1000x more track miles than Amtrak. I can't think of a single basic industry that hasn't greatly increased labor productivity (or gone away) since the 1960s. So, how about figuring out how to run the LD trains with a crew of 6, for starters. Engineer, Conductor, one or two trainmen, and...... -Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/) Reply TomDiehl Member sinceFebruary 2001 From: Poconos, PA 3,948 posts Posted by TomDiehl on Thursday, December 1, 2005 9:48 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd But, the payroll is still 2/3 of what NS's is when NS runs 5x more trains per day and maintains 10x more locomtives and 1000x more track miles than Amtrak. I can't think of a single basic industry that hasn't greatly increased labor productivity (or gone away) since the 1960s. So, how about figuring out how to run the LD trains with a crew of 6, for starters. Engineer, Conductor, one or two trainmen, and...... That might be a valid comparison and work if the passengers didn't mind being packed into a boxcar with no food, bathrooms, or even windows. The 60's would be a bad point of reference, at that point in history, most railroads had cut back services on passenger trains in an effort to kill them off. I'm not sure how big the actual train crew is on an Amtrak train, but I doubt if it's more than 6 people. I've only ever seen the engineer and conductor. Most are the "hotel staff" type jobs. Smile, it makes people wonder what you're up to. Chief of Sanitation; Clowntown Reply 12345 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
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-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
QUOTE: Originally posted by Dutchrailnut One can blame Union all they want, its Amtrak breaking the Labor contract. If you got a labor contract that is valid for X amount of years it can not be broken by bringing in outside sources. The Railway labor act specificaly states no changes in contract and no section six notices till 6 months before contract expires. If no new contract is signed a status quo holds the old contract as governing document. Amtrak was about to be getting a rude awakening, not by union workers but by courts for having managers with no brains. See: http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode45/usc_sup_01_45_10_8_20_I.html
QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton Union work rules have long been a barrier to productivity improvements in railroads as well as other unionized industries. There have been some improvments at Amtrak and there have been reductions in crew sizes on Amtrak trains. The dining cars have 5 person crews, 2 kitchen and 3 serving. As I watch these crews work, I do not believe that the "full service" diner could be run with less people and still have a reasonable level of service. The lounge cars offer just about what you might find in convenience stores: Beverages, snack items, cold sandwhiches and hot sandwhiches, soup, pizza and some other microwaveable items. One person runs this service. Beside prep and serving, that person is manager, stocker, cashier and clean-up person. The lounge attendant (and dining crew) will report to work an hour or two before train departure. Enroute the lounge will open at 6am and close at midnight and is closed for short periods while the attendant takes meal breaks. The dining crew, lounge and car attendants are not subject to the hours of service laws, and work a train from initial terminal to final destination. I don't know what the pay rates are, but I guarantee you that the minimum wage is NOT going to attract people who are willing to work the hours and have the away from home schedule required by these jobs. By the way, it occured to me that an additional possible reason for stopping of the pilot project may be the terms of the contract with the outside company that runs the commissary service for Amtrak. It has been criticized as a bad deal for Amtrak. Question not answered: Does this contract grant the outside company the exclusive Amtrak system wide right to do the food, beverage and supply acquisition and storage function? Jay
QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd If the line is long in the cafe car and the conductor is just hanging out waiting for the next stop, he should lend a hand.
QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton Don Your ideas are worthy of consideration, and it is likly that many have been considered. I wouldn't automaticly dismiss the idea that educated, trained and experienced motel, hotel and restaurant industry people have been involved in decision making process for Amtrak's food and sleeper service. I will suggest a couple of things for your consideration. Hotels, motels and restaurants don't move. Vending machines were tried many years ago by the SP. They didn't work. If you want to set up districts so Amtrak onboard service personnel don't work through, you have to deal with away from home layovers and the possibility of a crew member not being available at a district point. I'll bet that Amtrak would actually prefer to have T&E employees work through. I have seen lounge, dining and car attendants do at least a little work exchange. One small example is the delivery of dining car meals to sleeping car passengers at their rooms as worked performed by other than the dining car servers. You may be able to handle a tray of food on a train moving at 80MPH on less than top grade track, but that is not something everybody can do. "Oh gee, I am really sorry about dumping my supper in your lap." "Not to worry, I expect that to happen when I ride on trains." Service from a restaurant next to the depot? Guess how this announcement files. "Due to the delay caused by the BNSF frieght train dinner will be served when we arrive at Timbucto at 11pm. Thankyou for your patience." By the way, Gunn acknowledged that there were problems with the commisary contract that he inherited, and would have probably moved to make it more favorable to Amtrak. Furthermore, food service has been reduced or eliminated where it appeared that the cost did not seem to be justified by the impact it would have on ridership. Sad to say (for me), I think that Amtrak will now move to take off more of the dining service. Could be an excellent businees oppurtunity for someone. A cheap fixed facility if you don't count the cost of handicap access equipment. Jay
QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd Messing with air hoses is probably more sanitary than going to the bathroom - but we let food service employees do that. Soap, water and a smock and the trainman is good to go in the cafe car. Besides, how often does an Amtrak conductor have to mess with the undercar equipment? Training? McDonalds serves food. How hard can the training be?
QUOTE: Originally posted by PigFarmer1 Originally posted by Limitedclear There has been speculation in the press that issues may have arisen with the Amtrak union for the onboard crews who have lost their jobs when Amtrak cut food service on the Renssalaer based crews. Presumably objections have been raised to non-union Subway employees providing food service on those trains. See this article from the Albany Times Union for example: http://www.ble.org/pr/news/headline.asp?id=15037 LC As someone who has no intentions of ever riding Amtrak again after so many experiences with terrible "service" let me ask this question: Were Amtrak kitchen employees ever put out by having to operate can openers in order to serve the Franco American spaghetti slop that they supposedly cooked onboard the train??? Food for thought (NO pun intended). Some of the worst food I've ver eaten was consumed on Amtrak. Seems to me that Subway would be a big step up from the culinary garbagr normally served by Amtrak. Unfortunately the link here is word-for-word of the one in the original post, although different sources. Pigfarmer, I don't know what Amtrak trains you have eaten on, but in my experience (August of this year), the food in the Dining Car on a long distance train can easily rival the best restaurants. The food is prepared on board, unlike an airline where you get a newer version of a TV dinner. And usually not as good as the Swanson version. The Subway contract was to place a rudimentary food service on the shorter distance trains. New York City to Albany is about 2-1/2 hours. I believe that Amtrak had recently dropped the Cafe car (still better than airline food) on these routes and wanted something to replace it for the convenience of the passengers without the financial loss to the company. I believe there's still more to the story. Smile, it makes people wonder what you're up to. Chief of Sanitation; Clowntown Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 4:26 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Dutchrailnut One can blame Union all they want, its Amtrak breaking the Labor contract. If you got a labor contract that is valid for X amount of years it can not be broken by bringing in outside sources. The Railway labor act specificaly states no changes in contract and no section six notices till 6 months before contract expires. If no new contract is signed a status quo holds the old contract as governing document. Amtrak was about to be getting a rude awakening, not by union workers but by courts for having managers with no brains. See: http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode45/usc_sup_01_45_10_8_20_I.html At the risk of sounding lawyerly...lol... The Railway labor Act does not provide for a six month period for notices it actually provides for only "at least thirty days written notice". Here is the full text of the section known as "Section 6", which is actually Section 156 of the Act: <<< § 156. Procedure in changing rates of pay, rules, and working conditions Release date: 2005-03-01 Carriers and representatives of the employees shall give at least thirty days’ written notice of an intended change in agreements affecting rates of pay, rules, or working conditions, and the time and place for the beginning of conference between the representatives of the parties interested in such intended changes shall be agreed upon within ten days after the receipt of said notice, and said time shall be within the thirty days provided in the notice. In every case where such notice of intended change has been given, or conferences are being held with reference thereto, or the services of the Mediation Board have been requested by either party, or said Board has proffered its services, rates of pay, rules, or working conditions shall not be altered by the carrier until the controversy has been finally acted upon, as required by section 155 of this title, by the Mediation Board, unless a period of ten days has elapsed after termination of conferences without request for or proffer of the services of the Mediation Board. >>> If in fact the Amtrak union agreements call for six months notice this might be contained in the agreement itself, but not in the Railway labor Act. LC Reply Edit Randy Stahl Member sinceJune 2004 From: roundhouse 2,747 posts Posted by Randy Stahl on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 5:07 PM I'll bet if Hooters was in the mix there would be very little opposition . If not subway ......HOOTERS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Reply jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 9:24 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Randy Stahl I'll bet if Hooters was in the mix there would be very little opposition . If not subway ......HOOTERS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now that would be real reform....EMAIL AMTRAK CHAIRMAN LANEY!!!! "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 9:40 PM Here's the rest of the union story. Union opposes Subway food service on trains (The following article by eric Anderson was posted on the Albany Times Union website on November 30.) RENSSELAER, N.Y. -- A leafleting campaign by unionized Amtrak workers apparently brought a quick end to an effort by Subway to offer onboard food service. Subway stopped providing food on trains running exclusively between Rensselaer and New York City last week, six days into a four-month pilot project. On Tuesday, one of the Subway franchisees providing the service, Bob Hurley, said he'd like to resume food service on the trains. But a union official, Gary Maslanka, said his members remain opposed to the project. Amtrak ended its own food service on trains originating or terminating in Rensselaer last July. An Amtrak spokesman at the time said the move would save $1 million a year. Sixteen unionized members were affected, but most were offered other positions within Amtrak. Union officials argued their members had qualifications -- training in safety and security issues -- that went beyond food service, and they were there to help out in an emergency. "There is no comparison between well-paid, well-trained" Amtrak employees and the Subway workers who replaced them, said Maslanka, chairman of the Amtrak Service Workers Council and director of the railroad division for the Transport Workers Union. "We are definitely opposed to Subway workers providing service that our members have provided for years. "It's a step in the wrong direction," he added. Amtrak announced the pilot program earlier this month as a way to restore some food service while at the same time not incurring additional losses for the railroad. Subway's Hurley declined to talk about the specific reasons his franchise ended its service on the trains. He said, however, that he was happy with the reception received from passengers. "We're just trying to work through things," he said. "We went in hoping this would be a long-term commitment." Under the Amtrak deal, Subway paid the passenger railroad a portion of its proceeds. Subway used Amtrak's cafe cars, and a worker went through the coaches delivering food to travelers. One Los Angeles resident, who e-mailed the Times Union saying he was aboard a northbound train last week when the leafleting took place, said he was charged $2 for a bottle of water, even though he was in business class, where beverages previously had been free. He also said passengers received two leaflets, one that said the Subway service was taking away union jobs, and the other saying the service was creating a safety issue for passengers. From BLET Site Reply Edit RudyRockvilleMD Member sinceSeptember 2001 From: US 1,015 posts Posted by RudyRockvilleMD on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 9:45 PM I personally experienced the food vending machine on the SP's Daylight in the 1960's. The vending machine was located in a lounge car. The passenger was supposed to be able to deposit money in the vending machine, and get the meal. But the machine didn't work so you had to give the attendant money, and he unlocked the machine to allow you t get the meal. Why would a short trip like New York - Albany need a cafe car?. A refreshment cart or trolley would be all that would be needed. They use refreshment carts frequently on trains with short runs in Great Britain and Europe. Granted the cart may not have as great a variety in food or sandwiches as you might find in a cafe car. I agree with Randy Stahl !!!!! Reply jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 11:37 PM I am not surprised that the Union would be opposed to out sourcing. There doesn't seem to have been a certain threat of job action, but I don't think the that the union has to inform the public if such action is on their mind. Could be that the union informed management that a strike would be on the table, but I wonder if that is actually the governing issue. Amtrak Chairman Laney's comment to Trains Magazine Bob Johnston that the project is under review sure doesn't say much. As I said when I started this topic, REFORM doesn't come easy. If there is a person at Amtrak who thought this pilot project could go with out ANY protest by the Union, we can say for certain that we have found someone that fell off the turnip truck just yesterday. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 11:45 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by RudyRockvilleMD I personally experienced the food vending machine on the SP's Daylight in the 1960's. The vending machine was located in a lounge car. The passenger was supposed to be able to deposit money in the vending machine, and get the meal. But the machine didn't work so you had to give the attendant money, and he unlocked the machine to allow you t get the meal. Why would a short trip like New York - Albany need a cafe car?. A refreshment cart or trolley would be all that would be needed. They use refreshment carts frequently on trains with short runs in Great Britain and Europe. Granted the cart may not have as great a variety in food or sandwiches as you might find in a cafe car. I agree with Randy Stahl !!!!! I think that Amtrak's decision to pull the lounge car service on these trains is fairly indicative that the service had little or no impact on ridership. If such is the case, why even bother with a cart. Riders can easily do what commuters will do. Grab something to go. On the other hand, if Subway or anybody else can make a profit providing a service on a short run train like this, well go for it. As I've said, it is just not going to be as easy as one might think. "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply TomDiehl Member sinceFebruary 2001 From: Poconos, PA 3,948 posts Posted by TomDiehl on Thursday, December 1, 2005 6:24 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton QUOTE: Originally posted by RudyRockvilleMD I personally experienced the food vending machine on the SP's Daylight in the 1960's. The vending machine was located in a lounge car. The passenger was supposed to be able to deposit money in the vending machine, and get the meal. But the machine didn't work so you had to give the attendant money, and he unlocked the machine to allow you t get the meal. Why would a short trip like New York - Albany need a cafe car?. A refreshment cart or trolley would be all that would be needed. They use refreshment carts frequently on trains with short runs in Great Britain and Europe. Granted the cart may not have as great a variety in food or sandwiches as you might find in a cafe car. I agree with Randy Stahl !!!!! I think that Amtrak's decision to pull the lounge car service on these trains is fairly indicative that the service had little or no impact on ridership. If such is the case, why even bother with a cart. Riders can easily do what commuters will do. Grab something to go. On the other hand, if Subway or anybody else can make a profit providing a service on a short run train like this, well go for it. As I've said, it is just not going to be as easy as one might think. Not just that, but there's always reports that food service on the trains costs more than it makes. Subway was supposed to return a percentage of the receipts to Amtrak for the use of the train facilities. It may have been a small amount, but at least it would be on the positive side of the equation. The main union fear is that this will be a "foot in the door" for contracting out the food (and other) services on more of the trains. Smile, it makes people wonder what you're up to. Chief of Sanitation; Clowntown Reply oltmannd Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: Atlanta 11,971 posts Posted by oltmannd on Thursday, December 1, 2005 7:32 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton QUOTE: Originally posted by RudyRockvilleMD I personally experienced the food vending machine on the SP's Daylight in the 1960's. The vending machine was located in a lounge car. The passenger was supposed to be able to deposit money in the vending machine, and get the meal. But the machine didn't work so you had to give the attendant money, and he unlocked the machine to allow you t get the meal. Why would a short trip like New York - Albany need a cafe car?. A refreshment cart or trolley would be all that would be needed. They use refreshment carts frequently on trains with short runs in Great Britain and Europe. Granted the cart may not have as great a variety in food or sandwiches as you might find in a cafe car. I agree with Randy Stahl !!!!! I think that Amtrak's decision to pull the lounge car service on these trains is fairly indicative that the service had little or no impact on ridership. If such is the case, why even bother with a cart. Riders can easily do what commuters will do. Grab something to go. On the other hand, if Subway or anybody else can make a profit providing a service on a short run train like this, well go for it. As I've said, it is just not going to be as easy as one might think. I agree it won't be easy - or simple - or painless. But, Amtrak HAS to greatly improve labor productivity if there is going to be a chance of saving the LD trains with sleeper and food service. You simply can't have a 10 car LD train with 150 passengers on board at any one time and a crew of 12. That just won't work. The status-quo is a non-starter. Amtrak's labor productivity is horrendous. They HAVE reduced payroll by 5000 (about 20%) in the past couple of years w/o cutting service 20% - in fact, they are carrying MORE passengers. So, what was the "value added" of those 5000? But, the payroll is still 2/3 of what NS's is when NS runs 5x more trains per day and maintains 10x more locomtives and 1000x more track miles than Amtrak. I can't think of a single basic industry that hasn't greatly increased labor productivity (or gone away) since the 1960s. So, how about figuring out how to run the LD trains with a crew of 6, for starters. Engineer, Conductor, one or two trainmen, and...... -Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/) Reply TomDiehl Member sinceFebruary 2001 From: Poconos, PA 3,948 posts Posted by TomDiehl on Thursday, December 1, 2005 9:48 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd But, the payroll is still 2/3 of what NS's is when NS runs 5x more trains per day and maintains 10x more locomtives and 1000x more track miles than Amtrak. I can't think of a single basic industry that hasn't greatly increased labor productivity (or gone away) since the 1960s. So, how about figuring out how to run the LD trains with a crew of 6, for starters. Engineer, Conductor, one or two trainmen, and...... That might be a valid comparison and work if the passengers didn't mind being packed into a boxcar with no food, bathrooms, or even windows. The 60's would be a bad point of reference, at that point in history, most railroads had cut back services on passenger trains in an effort to kill them off. I'm not sure how big the actual train crew is on an Amtrak train, but I doubt if it's more than 6 people. I've only ever seen the engineer and conductor. Most are the "hotel staff" type jobs. Smile, it makes people wonder what you're up to. Chief of Sanitation; Clowntown Reply 12345 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Originally posted by Limitedclear There has been speculation in the press that issues may have arisen with the Amtrak union for the onboard crews who have lost their jobs when Amtrak cut food service on the Renssalaer based crews. Presumably objections have been raised to non-union Subway employees providing food service on those trains. See this article from the Albany Times Union for example: http://www.ble.org/pr/news/headline.asp?id=15037 LC As someone who has no intentions of ever riding Amtrak again after so many experiences with terrible "service" let me ask this question: Were Amtrak kitchen employees ever put out by having to operate can openers in order to serve the Franco American spaghetti slop that they supposedly cooked onboard the train??? Food for thought (NO pun intended). Some of the worst food I've ver eaten was consumed on Amtrak. Seems to me that Subway would be a big step up from the culinary garbagr normally served by Amtrak.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Randy Stahl I'll bet if Hooters was in the mix there would be very little opposition . If not subway ......HOOTERS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
QUOTE: Originally posted by RudyRockvilleMD I personally experienced the food vending machine on the SP's Daylight in the 1960's. The vending machine was located in a lounge car. The passenger was supposed to be able to deposit money in the vending machine, and get the meal. But the machine didn't work so you had to give the attendant money, and he unlocked the machine to allow you t get the meal. Why would a short trip like New York - Albany need a cafe car?. A refreshment cart or trolley would be all that would be needed. They use refreshment carts frequently on trains with short runs in Great Britain and Europe. Granted the cart may not have as great a variety in food or sandwiches as you might find in a cafe car. I agree with Randy Stahl !!!!!
QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton QUOTE: Originally posted by RudyRockvilleMD I personally experienced the food vending machine on the SP's Daylight in the 1960's. The vending machine was located in a lounge car. The passenger was supposed to be able to deposit money in the vending machine, and get the meal. But the machine didn't work so you had to give the attendant money, and he unlocked the machine to allow you t get the meal. Why would a short trip like New York - Albany need a cafe car?. A refreshment cart or trolley would be all that would be needed. They use refreshment carts frequently on trains with short runs in Great Britain and Europe. Granted the cart may not have as great a variety in food or sandwiches as you might find in a cafe car. I agree with Randy Stahl !!!!! I think that Amtrak's decision to pull the lounge car service on these trains is fairly indicative that the service had little or no impact on ridership. If such is the case, why even bother with a cart. Riders can easily do what commuters will do. Grab something to go. On the other hand, if Subway or anybody else can make a profit providing a service on a short run train like this, well go for it. As I've said, it is just not going to be as easy as one might think.
QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd But, the payroll is still 2/3 of what NS's is when NS runs 5x more trains per day and maintains 10x more locomtives and 1000x more track miles than Amtrak. I can't think of a single basic industry that hasn't greatly increased labor productivity (or gone away) since the 1960s. So, how about figuring out how to run the LD trains with a crew of 6, for starters. Engineer, Conductor, one or two trainmen, and......
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