Metra vs Multiple Cars

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by greyhounds
All I can think of is that is was God's Will that none of them died.

By that reasoning, you mean that is WAS God's will that they be hit by the train?

[Anonymous]

eastside, I believe you, because a law is only as good as its enforcement. I did hear when the law first took effect years ago, it seemed to help congestion.

[greyhounds]

QUOTE: Originally posted by equinox

QUOTE: Originally posted by greyhounds
All I can think of is that is was God's Will that none of them died.

By that reasoning, you mean that is WAS God's will that they be hit by the train?

No, and I'm not going to get into a religious argument on a railroad forum.

People have free will. Those that stopped on the tracks did so of their own free will. But there can be Devine Intervention. I believe you can be saved from your own screw up though Devine Intervention.

If you don't believe that, I'm not going to argue with you. It's your choice. But I believe that. And that's all I'm going to say here about that.

[Big_Boy_4005]

If you simply take the position that everything happens for a reason, perhaps when these people recover from their injuries they will become advocates for Opreation Lifesaver, and share their experience with others.

[jeaton]

Carl-Thanks. I was working from the reports from Wednesday night when they were calling it the Harlem crossing.

Jay

[arbfbe]

I would not be so heartless as not to offer my sympathies to those injured. They made a bad choice for sure but you can reasonably deduce they made thier choice based upon habits they have cultivated for some time. Stopping behind the gates on a clear crossing is a pretty good way to get rear ended by the overanxous bozo behind you who is not looking at your brake lights, only the signals at the intersection ahead. If more people learn the proper course of action then over time, better choices will be made. Those who now elect to sue the railroad for their individual poor choice and bad habits should loose the right to drive until the lawsuits are settled. Seems fair, right?

Here is a hint. If the train is coming at you and you are in the car, GET OUT OF THE CAR, PRONTO! The car offers no protection against the train at all. Run in the direction of the train. I know that sounds wrong but if you run away from the train, when the train impacts your vehicle it may be shoved over you resulting in your death. DO NOT run in front of the train, just toward the direction the train is coming from, perferrably perpendicular to the tracks. Draw yourself a picture and think about it, this is the best way out of a bad situation. Think about it every time you see a train at a crossing, plan your route of escape if the guy behind shoves you out into the path of the train. If you plan for it often enough it may be almost second nature if you need to do it.

[eastside]

Some additional facts and NTSB interviews:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-051125metra,1,6206291.story?coll=chi-news-hed

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by greyhounds

QUOTE: Originally posted by equinox

QUOTE: Originally posted by greyhounds
All I can think of is that is was God's Will that none of them died.

By that reasoning, you mean that is WAS God's will that they be hit by the train?

No, and I'm not going to get into a religious argument on a railroad forum.

People have free will. Those that stopped on the tracks did so of their own free will. But there can be Devine Intervention. I believe you can be saved from your own screw up though Devine Intervention.

If you don't believe that, I'm not going to argue with you. It's your choice. But I believe that. And that's all I'm going to say here about that.

So is that Devine intervention from Andy Devine? Perhaps you meant divine intervention. In either case, you are the one that mentioned the god thing first; I was merely responding.

I get so tired with so many invoking god's name when it is convenient, but cannot accept the alternative. Things happen all day to everyone, albiet in differing degrees. Either everything that happens is god's will, or nothing is. When we ask for prayers from others for whatever reason, or pray ourselves, are we not trying to change god's mind, trying to get 'him' to do something other than what 'he' originally intended?

"Pray for my dad, because he is sick." If god's aid can be enlisted, then that implies that god exists. And if god exists, why does anyone have to suffer? Why did god let your dad get sick?

Why does not 'he' simply show us the truth about existence, instead of leaving us to struggle with 200 different "religions" around the planet, each claiming THEY have the answer?

You do not want religion in the trains forum? Then do not mention crap like devine (sic) intervention or other such nonsense.

[edbenton]

The AP is reporting the gates activated with 54 seconds before the train got there.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by arbfbe

I would not be so heartless as not to offer my sympathies to those injured. They made a bad choice for sure but you can reasonably deduce they made thier choice based upon habits they have cultivated for some time. Stopping behind the gates on a clear crossing is a pretty good way to get rear ended by the overanxous bozo behind you who is not looking at your brake lights, only the signals at the intersection ahead. If more people learn the proper course of action then over time, better choices will be made. Those who now elect to sue the railroad for their individual poor choice and bad habits should loose the right to drive until the lawsuits are settled. Seems fair, right?

Here is a hint. If the train is coming at you and you are in the car, GET OUT OF THE CAR, PRONTO! The car offers no protection against the train at all. Run in the direction of the train. I know that sounds wrong but if you run away from the train, when the train impacts your vehicle it may be shoved over you resulting in your death. DO NOT run in front of the train, just toward the direction the train is coming from, perferrably perpendicular to the tracks. Draw yourself a picture and think about it, this is the best way out of a bad situation. Think about it every time you see a train at a crossing, plan your route of escape if the guy behind shoves you out into the path of the train. If you plan for it often enough it may be almost second nature if you need to do it.

I think it's worth noting that the train only hit 2 or 3 cars. These were pushed into the others like a chain reaction pileup on the interstate, so not everyone involved made a bad choice. A lot of stoplights are interconnected to crossing gates around the Chicago suburbs. I wonder if this has the unintended consequence of allowing people to think all are that way and they'll be able to get clear?

[ndbprr]

It is also worth noting that the politicians are involved now. Among the "suggestions" are Metra be forced to pay for an overpass at the location (talking heads saying price tag of $60 milion probable). Future idea is all Metra grade crossings be eliminated. Gates go down more than 2 minutes before train arrival to give people more time ( like they won't go around the gates with that delay). Trains be limited to a speed they can stop, etc, etc. And every one of them ignores the fact there was a huge yellow sign over the road saying," do not stop on the tracks. Frequent trains". Then the locals will probably want the horn eliminated like other communities. NTSB has already blamed the motorists for ignoring what was there and their own stupidity.

[CShaveRR]

I believe that 54 seconds is already over twice as much warning time as is required.

Also, I'm not sure that going around the gates is a problem here--it looks like there are median barriers to prevent this.

The businesses there won't like it, but a grade separation is ultimately the best answer. But why force it on Metra? Municipalities should be involved in the planning and funding, too. And Metra would get all of those millions from where? The state, perhaps? Guess it really doesn't matter.

[nicknoyes]

The area of the Metra crossing accident in Elmwood Park is about 3 blocks from where I lived. I have had to stop at that crossing many times, so I am very familiar with the possible danger at that crossing. I have seen drivers drive onto the tracks and sit there waiting for traffic in front of them to move. Drivers have given me the horn when I have stop short of the crossing. As soon as I heard of the accident I felt I knew exactly what happened. And according to the NTSB I was right. Not that I am so smart, it’s from experience and sensibility

Accidents at that Elmwood Park crossing are not uncommon although this was probably the worst in sometime. The three track main line crosses Grand Avenue at about a 45 degree angle making it an unusually long crossing. About a block east of the crossing is a traffic signal. So if that light is red for east bound traffic there is a traffic backup that, during heavy traffic periods, not just on holidays, can backup traffic to and across the crossing. Large yellow signs hanging over Grand Avenue on both sides of the tracks warn, “LONG CROSSING – DO NOT STOP ON TRACKS”. The accident was caused by drivers not paying attention to the sign. They all stopped on the tracks. Of course at the time they all stopped bumper to bumper on the tracks, the on coming train had not yet triggered the lights and gates. The Elmwood Park station is east of the crossing around a curve making impossible for the engineer to see the crossing. However, I suspect if the train had stopped at the Elmwood Park station it would be just started to get under way and might have been able to stop in time. Unfortunately the train was an express going 60 some MPH and not stopping at the Elmwood Park station. There is no way the train could have stopped although the engineer did put the train into emergency braking.

In Elmwood Park the traffic signals close enough to the railroad crossings throughout the village are interlocked with the crossing gates. So when the bells start ringing and the lights flash, the traffic signal right away changes to green so traffic can clear the tracks before the gates come down. However, the follow up news report mentioned the NTSB said the light east of the crossing is far enough away from the crossing so that, by law, it need not be interlocked with the RR gates. I believe that even if the traffic light was interlocked to the RR signals, traffic would not have started moving fast enough to let those people stopped on the tracks get off.

It is interesting to note that during a live local TV follow up report of the accident the following day the TV cameras caught a truck stopped on the tracks when the gates came down. The whole world saw a CP freight train just miss hitting the truck only because the freight was on the center track. Nuff said?

Nick

[Chris30]

A quick followup...

One person who got stuck on the tracks and was hit by either the train, or another car, is now on the local news and in the local papers BLAMING METRA! Why? As stated by the woman from her hospital bed, the crossing signals were not in sync with the traffic lights.
- She didn't give any reason as to why she stopped on the tracks in the first place (I guess that she didn't see the big yellow sign telling her not to).
- She just blew the story about the signals not working by admiting that they did work.
- CP maintains the signaling sytem & talk to IDOT (Illinlis Department of Transportation) about the traffic signals.
- An accident like the one that happened on Wednesday night was going to happen at this crossing. Now the crossing will be fixed (or least made better). It just seems that a situation like this is what it takes to fix something in our society today. -$$$- It happened ten years ago in Fox River Grove when a Metra train smashed into a school bus that didn't clear the crossing. Then, after a bunch of kids were killed, it was decided that traffic signals should be linked with train crossing signals.
- The media and a bunch of other yahoos are asking for Metra to reduce speed at the Grand Ave crossing. So, if Metra slows down in Elmwood Park, then cars won't stop on the tracks at the Grand Ave crossing? BRILLIANT! Gotcha.

CC

[BillyFloyd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30

A quick followup...

One person who got stuck on the tracks and was hit by either the train, or another car, is now on the local news and in the local papers BLAMING METRA! Why? As stated by the woman from her hospital bed, the crossing signals were not in sync with the traffic lights.
- She didn't give any reason as to why she stopped on the tracks in the first place (I guess that she didn't see the big yellow sign telling her not to).

I saw that one. She was whining that "she became trapped on the tracks with other drivers when the warning lights started flashing. She said because the traffic light ahead of them was red, the cars had no place to go.

"'I was looking up, hoping the light would turn green,' she said Saturday from her room in Loyola University Medical Center in Maywood. ' "It never did.'"

Oh... it's all the traffic light's fault for not being green.

YOU! Out of the gene pool! Now!

[eolafan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BillyFloyd

QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30

A quick followup...

One person who got stuck on the tracks and was hit by either the train, or another car, is now on the local news and in the local papers BLAMING METRA! Why? As stated by the woman from her hospital bed, the crossing signals were not in sync with the traffic lights.
- She didn't give any reason as to why she stopped on the tracks in the first place (I guess that she didn't see the big yellow sign telling her not to).

I saw that one. She was whining that "she became trapped on the tracks with other drivers when the warning lights started flashing. She said because the traffic light ahead of them was red, the cars had no place to go.

"'I was looking up, hoping the light would turn green,' she said Saturday from her room in Loyola University Medical Center in Maywood. ' "It never did.'"

Oh... it's all the traffic light's fault for not being green.

YOU! Out of the gene pool! Now!

[censored] To Chris and Billy, I also saw that person (will not be calling her a woman for obvious reasons) on the NBC news here in Chicago last night. What can I say, anybody who saw her can understand why I am not in the least bit surprised by her morinic statements.

[eastside]

If you'll look at the bottom of this story:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-0511280230nov28,1,7950291.column?coll=chi-news-hed
you'll see that some people outside this forum have good sense when it comes to crossings.

[Anonymous]

Metra clears engineer after re-enactment
(The following article by Maureen O’Donnell was posted on the Chicago Sun Times website on November 28.)

CHICAGO -- A Department of Homeland Security camera may play a key role in probing last week's Metra train accident in Elmwood Park.

Images from the camera -- which is positioned to monitor the Grand Avenue crossing -- will be enhanced to remove graininess, said investigative officials, who on Sunday performed a re-enactment of the chain-reaction wreck.

The Homeland Security camera "captured -- on video -- the scene before, during and after the crash," said Metra spokeswoman Judy Pardonnet.

"I think they will use it as an additional public-awareness tool on the danger of stopping on the track."

The Antioch-bound train struck vehicles that were blocking the track in the 7600 block of Grand during Wednesday's afternoon rush. By Metra's count, the accident injured 16 and damaged 17 cars.

'Engineer acted appropriately'

Sunday's re-enactment, staged by investigators from the National Transportation Safety Board, the Federal Railroad Administration and the Illinois Commerce Commission, used a slow-moving train and positioned cars on the track at the Grand crossing.

Probers used a laser to check distances, said Pardonnet and NTSB spokesman Paul Schlamm. "They want to see what the engineer could see and when he could see it," Pardonnet said.

The engineer and crew members are "in good standing," Pardonnet added. "The signals all appear to be working properly, and the engineer acted appropriately. . . . He was very observant. As soon as he saw the vehicles obstructing the track, he immediately put the train into the emergency brake mode and alerted the dispatcher of an emergency."

NTSB acting director Mark Rosenker sees the crash as an opportunity to educate motorists, Pardonnet said. "He thought that this would be a model for rail safety throughout the world . . . there were so many vehicles involved."

"Drivers have to be aware they are just inching along, bumper to bumper, and stopped on the railroad tracks," Schlamm said. "The potential was there for a much more serious event."

From BLET site

[techguy57]

LC- Yeah, I heard about that on the radio on my way into work today. Hopefully it'll shed some light on the events a they actually happened (although as far as I'm concerned this was mostly the motorists at fault.)

One quick question that I haven't heard throughout the coverage: Was this a "quiet zone"?

Still, this got the railfan in me wondering: How many crossing does Homeland Security have cameras at and exactly why? I guess these would perhaps be considered " soft targets" but I'm unsure what the rationale would be for the funding of these cameras versus hiring more security personnel. And why did it take 4 days before anyone beside the government (I'm guessing they knew) heard that there was in fact a camera at the crossing. Of course I'd also like to know if they'd make the cameras accessible from the internet so I could wath the trains all day![:D]

[Green Bay Paddlers]

QUOTE: Originally posted by techguy57


Still, this got the railfan in me wondering: How many crossing does Homeland Security have cameras at and exactly why? I guess these would perhaps be considered " soft targets" but I'm unsure what the rationale would be for the funding of these cameras versus hiring more security personnel. [:D]

$$$$$$$$$

[MP173]

I drive a lot of miles each year...usually about 40,000. Many in Chicago and the burbs. I consider myself a pretty good driver. Every once in a while I find myself in a situation that just scares the crap out of me.

You guys can make all your comments about the gene pool and everything else, but take a serious look at that crossing and then ask yourself if it is possible that you could have been in that situation. I know I could have.

About once a year one of these types of accidents occur. Sometimes everything lines up that way. I dont think we can ever engineer 100% safety for everyone.

I remember a few years ago a truck driver had a similar type situation at the Midwest Steel entrance at Portage Indiana, with Conrail and South Shore lines. He got trapped between the two lines and his trailer fouled the South Shore. No one every considered the fact that tractor trailers are longer and it was possible for the timing to cause him to get trapped.

Remember when you start discussing the gene pool of the people who "deserved it" that most cars were not on the track and were observant of all traffic laws. Did they "deserve it?"

ed

[CSXrules4eva]

Since a couple of people made comments about that woman who was on the news shooting her mouth off about how the accident was all Metra's fault, I have to say this much. If she decided to sue Metra over this situation, given here pain and suffering and the injuries she has I'm sure the jury would most likely take side with her arugment. They would look at her and feel so bad for her in the respect that they would want to give her some money.
Unfortunitly, there is no such thing as a 100 percent safe grade crossing. Accidents will always occur. I do have to say that in this matter I don't and refuse to belive that this accident was all Metra's fault.

[Anonymous]

I simply do not understand why this is so difficult. Don't enter the crossing unless there's room for you beyond the tracks, beyond the gates. On the road. Don't try to second-guess the lights. Don't try to second-guess the trains, or the gates, or anything else. If there's room, take it; don't anticipate it. This is not a computer game; it's life.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by techguy57

LC- Yeah, I heard about that on the radio on my way into work today. Hopefully it'll shed some light on the events a they actually happened (although as far as I'm concerned this was mostly the motorists at fault.)

One quick question that I haven't heard throughout the coverage: Was this a "quiet zone"?

Still, this got the railfan in me wondering: How many crossing does Homeland Security have cameras at and exactly why? I guess these would perhaps be considered " soft targets" but I'm unsure what the rationale would be for the funding of these cameras versus hiring more security personnel. And why did it take 4 days before anyone beside the government (I'm guessing they knew) heard that there was in fact a camera at the crossing. Of course I'd also like to know if they'd make the cameras accessible from the internet so I could wath the trains all day![:D]

TG -

Sorry, but I don't know if this crossing was a quiet zone. Given the size of the crossing I would doubt it given the various measures required for a quiet zones would seem very difficult if not impossible to deploy with a large non-standard crossing such as the one in question. Perhaps one of the guys in the local area can advise?

LC

[jeaton]

LC- The locals would know but I think I read that there are traffic dividers at the center that would keep a driver from going into the on-coming lanes to go around the gates. Most of the Chicago area is subject to quiet zone ordinances, but I am not sure all of these crossings meet the quiet zone standards.

I think that part of the problem with the accident crossing is that people just don't get the sign. I am not trying to exonerate drivers from the error of there ways, but I suspect many think that the sign means "DO NOT STOP ON TRACKS ON PURPOSE". In other words, people may think that the prohibition is against just sitting on the tracks. However, if you have to stop on the tracks because the car ahead of you is stopped and blocking your way, well, that's different.

I don't know how you can convey to drivers that they are not to enter the tracks until the road on the other side has room for their vehicle in the clear, but some smart highway traffic engineer better figure out a way. Otherwise these kinds of accidents will continue to happen.

The mud chicken might say that part of the problem is that "smart traffic engineer" is an oxymoron.

Jay

PS Sounds like the engineer on the train was right on the ball.

[mudchicken]

Waiting to see if the local gumshoes will EVER issue citations to the two or three offending motorists. In light of what happened here in Colorado last year, I think METRA ought to seize the high ground. (The best defense being a good offense)....[}:)][}:)][}:)]

[eolafan]

Chicago Tribune reported this morning that Metra has decided to reduce the speed limit for their trains through the Grand Avenue crossing (the one where this accident happened) to a permanent 30 mph until somebody builds an overpass bridge or underpass tunnel to prevent future crashes. This would not be necessary if only drivers would obey the RR crossing "rules of the road".[banghead]

[jeaton]

And so the commuters take the hit, timewise. From the word we have here, there have been more than a few close calls at this crossing. I guess it can be said that Metra is showing good citizenship on this issue.

Instructions should be that when an engineer sees cars stopped on the tracks, turn off the lights on the engine, come to a stop just before entering the crossing and then lean on the horn. Ten atta boys for each driver that panics and rear ends the car ahead. LOL

Jay

[eolafan]

Like so very many other times in our current society, those in the wrong will end up getting the ultimate decisions in their favor. No wonder our children are growing up as dummies with no common sense.

[Anonymous]

Maybe what's needed is a stoplight west of the crossing for eastbound traffic timed to go red before the stoplight to the east does, allowing the traffic to clear the tracks. One of those automated photo-enforcement cameras like Chicago is using should stop people from running the red light.