Metra vs Multiple Cars

[cpbloom]

It seems like every news report I've seen is placing the blame on the railroad (in so many words). They make it sound like at the very least the railroad is still at fault for having their tracks where they are!?!? [:(!][:(!][:(!]

[eolafan]

We would not have to second guess any engineer, nor would Metra (or any commuter agency or RR) need to spend over $1 billion in PTC systems if only such really stupid people would simply NOT EVER STOP ON THE TRACKS NOR EVER, EVER GO AROUND THE LOWERED CROSSING GATES. Geeeeeezzzzz, for crimany sakes, these people are plain DUMB, MORINIC, IDIOTIC (choose your favorite term here)[soapbox]

[zardoz]

We railfans are focused on train stuff, whereas most people are barely aware of their existence, except when something like this happens.

No matter what the cause--traffic jam, stupid drivers, malfunctioning whatevers, just think about the engineer for a minute. As he saw what was going to happen, I would bet he was thinking about:
1. Oh my god, this is going to be bad
2. How many people are going to be killed / injured
3. Am I going to derail from all the debris
4. How many people on my train are going to be killed / injured
5. And just before a holiday...
And probably many other things as well.

The engineer can well be considered a victim in any accident where he is not at fault. The emotional scars will remain long after the lawsuits have been resolved. I would guess he did not get much sleep last night; nor will he tonight, either.

All he could do was dump the air, wait for the impacts, and imagine the carnage that was occurring just fifteen feet ahead and below of him.

As stupid as some of those people were, try to have some sympathy. It was dark, it was rush hour, it was the night before a holiday. No excuses for the morons, but try to at least remember that the people hit are dads, moms, uncles, brothers, sisters.....a lot of families are affected by this sort of event.

A moment of silence, please, for all the victims, especially the engineer.

[daveklepper]

Let us hope and pray everyone pulls through alive on this.

[CShaveRR]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Green Bay Paddlers

LOL - Logged on just to check the "railroad experts" from all around the country give their in-depth analysis of this wreck based on no actual data.

Come on guys. Let the injured heal and the real pro's investigate the loss. I feel terrible for the engineer as well as those who were injured.

Shelve the negative comments for now...

Green Bay, why are you paddling us?

Some of us have been around (a) Chicago, (b) Metra specifically, and (c) railroads in general long enough to have seen accidents similar to this. and to know what we're looking at when the pictures come up.

I felt quite vindicated last night when the chief from the fire station that is fortuitously located near the crossing said that he sees behavior of the type I described at this crossing all the time.

Do we need to be experts to say that the vehicles were where they shouldn't have been? That a traffic warning sign was ignored, regardless of whether or not the gates were functioning? That a veteran engineer was probably not operating his train any differently than he does day in and day out? That the engineers of the two westbound trains that went through there less than 15 minutes before the accident would have reported any problems they had seen with the grade crossing protection? Railroaders do that.

Oh, the investigating experts will check everything, all right. But, as somebody said before, the railroaders know what's happened here. Most of them have been there, and have had close calls, if not been actually involved in similar situations. I happen to be a railroader. And I'm probably one heck of a lot more qualified to give an opinion than someone behind an anchor desk or in a television control room. Or even the member of the public who was sent to the scene with a microphone, a camera entourage, and a channel number.

The injured (including the engineer, I've heard) will heal, we fervently hope. We aren't so callous as to wish anything but the best for them. But the fact that the people in the vehicles were hurt doesn't change the fact that they were in a situation that they should have avoided.


(Jay, Harlem is east of the accident site, and these cars, and the train, were westbound. The light that was probably causing the backup was at Grand and Cumberland, nearly 3/4 mile away. I doubt that there would even be a call for coordinating lights that far from the tracks with the crossing. [It could very well have been coordinated with the grade crossing at Thatcher, which is the site of the River Grove station, where the train was due to stop]. In my non-expert opinion, it was probably slowing down for that stop already by the time it was put into emergency [engineer's statement says that he did that] before hitting the cars.)


(Jim, you added your statement while I was composing mine. Amen to you, brother, as another railroader who's been there.)

[Big_Boy_4005]

You know guys, all of you that are screaming "NEVER STOP ON THE TRACKS", are really just preaching to the choir when you say it here on the forum.

How do we get this message out to the idiots in the general population who need to hear it??? Operation Lifesaver can only do so much.

[Green Bay Paddlers]

CShaveRR - I hear what you're saying. However, it seems pretty cold that within hours of a wreck that there are so many on these forums condemning the dead as "morons" and claiming Darwin' theories are alive and well! I agree with the person above who suggested we give a moment for those who were injured.

Why have trials and investigations if we can simply look at some news footage and rely on some past experiences to determine what "actually" happened? I lived in Chicago for 20 years and have spent over a thousand hours riding METRA. However, I do not feel remotely comfortable rendering a judgement based on some breaking news stories.

We need to wait until the investigation is done and THEN discuss what we can do to teach the public the dangers of railroading. Based on what I've seen of the intersection, I could understand why someone who is unfamiliar with the area could get caught out on those tracks. This isn't your typical grade crossing.

[Anonymous]

All in all, it just goes to show how vauable people consider their time. That folks are willing to sit on the tracks of a very busy railway in order to scoot up to the light so that they might not have to wait for a train. I'm sure there were some out of towners around, but most of those people probably know the frequency of Metra trains on that line especially at rush hour! If folks are that much in a ru***hey're willing to forgo their own safety to save a few minutes; it's time to reevaluate your life!

[jchnhtfd]

There are two laws which are applicable here (for automobiles): first, never enter an intersection you cannot clear; second, never stop on the railroad tracks.

At least four drivers broke both those laws. While I sympathize maybe just a wee tiny bit with Green Bay's annoyance with those of us who know and work with trains, this accident would not have happened had those individuals been obeying the law.

Never mind common sense.

I hope the engineer is OK... now he has my complete sympathy. He never had a chance.

[Anonymous]

From Thursday, Nov. 24 CHICAGO TRIBUNE (abridged):

"TRAIN PLOWS INTO CARS
Rush-hour Metra crash hurts 16 in Elmwood Park

"A Metra express train slammed ino five cars trapped in rush-hour traffic at an Elmwood Park crossing Wednesday night, causing a thunderous chain reaction that tore apart vehicles and left 16 people injured, three critically.

"Witnesses heard a deafening metallic screech as the train pushed one car for nearly a block. That car burst into flames, and nearby motorists pulled the driver to safety.

. . .

"Residents and Elmwood Park officials said the crossing on Grand Avenue has long been problematic, with motorists routinely trying to squeeze across the tracks as the gates are coming down.

"The train crosses four-lane Grand Avenue at an angle, making the crowssing unusually long. Signs above the crossing warn motorists: 'Long Crossing. Do Not Stop on Tracks.'

. . .

"'People violate the gates constantly,' said Elmwood Park Fire Chief Michael Marino. 'I see cars, kids on bikes, motocycles, ladies with shopping bags going under the gates when a train is coming.' "

. . .

Note from A.S.: The local Channel 7 (ABC) Eyewitness News at Six said Thursday evening that the gates and signals had functioned properly and that the train engineer had put the train into emergency braking as soon as he saw the traffic gridlocked ahead. At least some of the cars had ignored the red light ahead of them and squeezed past lowering crossing gates.

In my opinion, this was a situation of collective idiocy coming to a head. It was the busiest traffic day of the year, the roads were jammed, it was around 5:00 p.m., just after dark here and the height of rush hour anyway. None of this excuses the fact that commuters along Grand Avenue had long made a habit of entering a crossing they shouldn't. Apparently motorists had taken a life-threatening situation and treated it as a mere inconvenience, forgetting what a train can do to a stopped car. The angle of crossing is so shallow that the intersection runs about 100 feet instead of the more normal fifty that would occur at a right-angled, multi-track crossing. This allowed the maximum number of eastbound cars to gridlock the intersection. While the amount of destruction to vehicles was truly breath-taking, it is a miracle that more people weren't badly hurt or even killed. The train was a normally scheduled, Antioch line Metra train on a line that runs west from Chicago, turns to the north near the O'Hare airport stop, and continues to the north along old Soo trackage. Nothing about its center-track, limited-stop run was in any way unusual.

WHEN WILL THEY LEARN?
[xx(]

PS: You can read the verbatim account by logging onto chicagotribune.com, but you will have to sign into the system and leave your e-mail address.

[Anonymous]

Yep. The driving school graduated a new class of licensed drivers based on the "Stupids" endorsements.

I have no sympathy for those who are caught on tracks by a train.

I pray for the crews and passengers on that train. They must feel really terrible about this incident.

Look Listen and Live.

[Anonymous]

A couple of towns on that line constructed underpasses back when it could be done more cheaply. Elmwood Park didn't.

That's the best solution. But do any of you think this occurrence will precipitate any movements in that direction?

Old Timer

[Anonymous]

Sure.. I think they can over pass anything. But there will be hell to pay financially to raise the railroad 20 feet over every street in Little Rock.

[Anonymous]

NTSB: "Chicago crossing gates working"
ELMWOOD PARK, Ill. - A group of cars hit by a commuter train at a busy suburban Chicago crossing had 54 seconds from the time the gates were activated until the train came barreling through, an official with the National Transportation Safety Board said, reports the Associated Press.

The crossing gates appeared to be working, but traffic was backed up during the evening rush Wednesday and several cars became trapped between the gates, acting NTSB chairman Mark Rosenker said.

"The cars were in a place they shouldn't have been at the time," Rosenker said. The train hit them because they had nowhere to go, he said.

(Members of the UTU Transportation Safety Team have been on the scene assisting investigators from the NTSB.)

Sixteen people were injured when the train slammed into the trapped cars and started a chain reaction in the heavy traffic. Three remained hospitalized Thursday, Rosenker said.

Investigators are now looking into whether the traffic signals at the long diagonal intersection gave vehicles enough time to clear the tracks. They also planned to interview the train's crew members on Friday, and were investigating human error and other possible reasons for the crash.

A spokesman for the Metra train service said the vehicles shouldn't have been in the train's path in the first place. A large sign above the tracks reads: "Long crossing. Do not stop on the tracks."

"It's right above the gate" said Metra spokesman Patrick Waldron. "If you followed that sign you wouldn't have been on the tracks."

(The preceding story was published by the Associated Press. Material in parenthesis was added by UTU editors.)

[Big_Boy_4005]

This whole incident is about driver complacency. My sympathies are running low after reading the most recent article LC posted. Every warning possible was in place, yet people ignored them, and got caught. People get so used to crossing railroad tracks, they forget what they are doing.

Is it just me, or is the Chicago area the capitol of grade crossing incidents?

[eastside]

Today's Chicago Tribune has a story essentially repeating the opinions of this forum. No anti-railroad bias there. It also has a graphic showing how oblique the angle of track to road actually is.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-0511250154nov25,1,7753682.story?coll=chi-news-hed
That crossing gives me the creeps whenever I drive over it. Does anyone know if it was one of the crossings scheduled to be grade-separated under the CATS (I think that was the acronym) plan?

The Metra train took out 16 cars, 5 in the direct collision and 11 collateral.

[Green Bay Paddlers]

The city of Chicago doesn't have many grade crossings at all. The city designers had all of the railroad grades raised and underpasses/bridges built throughout the city. However, that isn't true in the suburbs, which have exploded in size over the years.

I'm down in Chicago this weekend visiting family. Today's Tribune shows a picture of that intersection less than 24 hours after the accident with cars parked between the gates and the tracks. Will people ever learn? What can we do to educate the public? I'm a high school teacher and I do work railroad history AND safety into my curriculum. I am going to continue to encourage my colleagues to do the same.

[eolafan]

Unbelievable! The Chicago Tribune this morning (a day after the crash in Elmwood Park) had a picture of the Grand Avenue crossing taken yesterday afternoon (Thanksgiving Day) showing cars STILL past the gates but before the tracks. WILL THESE STUPID PEOPLE EVER LEARN?

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Green Bay Paddlers

The city of Chicago doesn't have many grade crossings at all. The city designers had all of the railroad grades raised and underpasses/bridges built throughout the city. However, that isn't true in the suburbs, which have exploded in size over the years.

I'm down in Chicago this weekend visiting family. Today's Tribune shows a picture of that intersection less than 24 hours after the accident with cars parked between the gates and the tracks. Will people ever learn? What can we do to educate the public? I'm a high school teacher and I do work railroad history AND safety into my curriculum. I am going to continue to encourage my colleagues to do the same.

You are right, the city of Chicago proper is much better planned. The burbs are pure sprall, with the rails being in place long before there was much more than farmland and dirt roads. Now the area is all filled in, leaving tons of grade crossings, and this as the result.

Cars and trains don't mix, and complacent / stupid people don't help. They can't remove the grade crossings or even mark them better, and clearly they can't make the people smarter either. Oh well, it gives us something to talk about.[banghead][sigh]

Maybe what they need is a sign showing the number of consecutive accident free days at each location, much like those used in industrial safety programs. That might get people's attention.

[greyhounds]

The "Train rails started blinking!??". (see below) Or, if you're in a car stuck on the tracks when a train is comming, why don't you get out of the freaking car?

Not only did they aparently stop on the tracks, but they wouldn't get out of their cars when they saw the train was on the way. You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, and know when to RUN.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-metra25.html

Thank God, nobody died.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

The older parts of Chicago (built up prior to WW1) have almost no grade crossings due to an effort by the city starting in about the late 1890's to elevate the tracks to eliminate grade crossings and other nuisances. There was a Bureau of Track Elevation in the city government to co-ordinate and approve various elevation projects. There are grade crossings in parts of Chicago that developed after WW2 since those areas were pretty much vacant before that time and elevation was unnecessary.

[rrnut282]

Sounds like the most practical solution will be to place a second traffic signal on Grand Ave at the RR crossing interconnected to the traffic signals at 76th. This should keep vehicles off of the crossing during heavy traffic, and timed properly, will not interfere with motorists getting through.

As far as when will people learn? Never. We have made great strides in removing personal responsibility in this culture. Now we are reaping the rewards of that effort.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by greyhounds

The "Train rails started blinking!??". (see below) Or, if you're in a car stuck on the tracks when a train is comming, why don't you get out of the freaking car?

Not only did they aparently stop on the tracks, but they wouldn't get out of their cars when they saw the train was on the way. You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, and know when to RUN.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-metra25.html

Thank God, nobody died.

Getting hit outside the vehicle is nearly sure death. The car may actually have saves the woman's life. As for the "rails blikning", I take that to be the reflection of the crossing signal's lights.

[CShaveRR]

I think that the witness talking about "train rails" blinking and coming down was actually referring to the gates.

What could be done, and probably should be, next time the pavement is dry, is to stripe the entire area from the gate to the safe area, just to let drivers know that they're in a "no stopping" zone. We have a grade crossing near us where the tracks cross at a sharp angle (not quite as acute as this one) with diagonal lines painted that way. Maybe that would make more people think.

The television coverage showed the hit cars in the westbound lane, but all of the talk about the traffic lights refers to lights east of the crossing. My bad--it didn't occur to me that those damaged cars could have been traveling eastbound and been bulldozed to the westbound lanes by the westbound train.

According to the Tribune article, the traffic light at Grand and 76th Avenue is not close enough to the crossing to require coordination (I believe 150 feet is the maximum distance away that requires coordination), and it sounds like a coordination in this case would cause more problems than it solves. I wonder whether the intersection should be closed, or at least restricted (no left turns into or out of it) in such a way that a traffic light would no longer be required there. The following link should show the intersection:

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=76th+Street+and+Grand+Avenue,+Elmwood+Park,+IL&ll=41.926356,-87.818495&spn=0.003185,0.005616&t=h&hl=en

I'm glad the "blame the railroad" mentality seems to have lifted from the coverage.

[CShaveRR]

Eastside, the acronymn you're looking for is CREATE (Chicago Region Environmental And Transportation Efficiency). And no, this crossing is not one of the 25 that were specified for that program.

The list of the crossings I saw ranked them according to some list of the state's most dangerous crossings, and there were many omissions (for example, the second crossing on the CREATE list was third on the Illinois list). I don't know which crossings were on the Illinois list but not in the CREATE program--it's conceivable that they were spread all over the state.

The angle of this crossing is going to make a grade separation a very costly proposition, regardless of whether the street is sent over or under the tracks. Costly in terms of the structure itself and in the disrupted/removed properties surrounding it.

[eastside]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CShaveRR


Eastside, the acronymn you're looking for is CREATE (Chicago Region Environmental And Transportation Efficiency). And no, this crossing is not one of the 25 that were specified for that program.

The list of the crossings I saw ranked them according to some list of the state's most dangerous crossings, and there were many omissions (for example, the second crossing on the CREATE list was third on the Illinois list). I don't know which crossings were on the Illinois list but not in the CREATE program--it's conceivable that they were spread all over the state.

Thanks, for the reminder. Wasn't one of the criteria for making the list for grade separation that trains would often stall at the crossing, blocking car traffic for long periods? As a result, I seem to remember that most of the proposed grade separations were on the south side, where most of Chicago's freight traffic is.

QUOTE:
The angle of this crossing is going to make a grade separation a very costly proposition, regardless of whether the street is sent over or under the tracks. Costly in terms of the structure itself and in the disrupted/removed properties surrounding it.

Obviously, because of the length and positioning of support columns etc. I'll bet politicians start clamoring for it to be done, though.

[mloik]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CShaveRR

QUOTE: Originally posted by Green Bay Paddlers

LOL - Logged on just to check the "railroad experts" from all around the country give their in-depth analysis of this wreck based on no actual data.

Come on guys. Let the injured heal and the real pro's investigate the loss. I feel terrible for the engineer as well as those who were injured.

Shelve the negative comments for now...

Green Bay, why are you paddling us?

Some of us have been around (a) Chicago, (b) Metra specifically, and (c) railroads in general long enough to have seen accidents similar to this. and to know what we're looking at when the pictures come up.

I felt quite vindicated last night when the chief from the fire station that is fortuitously located near the crossing said that he sees behavior of the type I described at this crossing all the time.

Do we need to be experts to say that the vehicles were where they shouldn't have been? That a traffic warning sign was ignored, regardless of whether or not the gates were functioning? That a veteran engineer was probably not operating his train any differently than he does day in and day out? That the engineers of the two westbound trains that went through there less than 15 minutes before the accident would have reported any problems they had seen with the grade crossing protection? Railroaders do that.

Oh, the investigating experts will check everything, all right. But, as somebody said before, the railroaders know what's happened here. Most of them have been there, and have had close calls, if not been actually involved in similar situations. I happen to be a railroader. And I'm probably one heck of a lot more qualified to give an opinion than someone behind an anchor desk or in a television control room. Or even the member of the public who was sent to the scene with a microphone, a camera entourage, and a channel number.

The injured (including the engineer, I've heard) will heal, we fervently hope. We aren't so callous as to wish anything but the best for them. But the fact that the people in the vehicles were hurt doesn't change the fact that they were in a situation that they should have avoided.


(Jay, Harlem is east of the accident site, and these cars, and the train, were westbound. The light that was probably causing the backup was at Grand and Cumberland, nearly 3/4 mile away. I doubt that there would even be a call for coordinating lights that far from the tracks with the crossing. [It could very well have been coordinated with the grade crossing at Thatcher, which is the site of the River Grove station, where the train was due to stop]. In my non-expert opinion, it was probably slowing down for that stop already by the time it was put into emergency [engineer's statement says that he did that] before hitting the cars.)


(Jim, you added your statement while I was composing mine. Amen to you, brother, as another railroader who's been there.)

Amen, CShaveRR

[greyhounds]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

QUOTE: Originally posted by greyhounds

The "Train rails started blinking!??". (see below) Or, if you're in a car stuck on the tracks when a train is comming, why don't you get out of the freaking car?

Not only did they aparently stop on the tracks, but they wouldn't get out of their cars when they saw the train was on the way. You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, and know when to RUN.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-metra25.html

Thank God, nobody died.

Getting hit outside the vehicle is nearly sure death. The car may actually have saves the woman's life. As for the "rails blikning", I take that to be the reflection of the crossing signal's lights.

Getting hit inside a vehicle by a train going 65-70 mph is also nearly sure death. All I can think of is that is was God's Will that none of them died.

I wouldn't put myself in that situation - but if I was in that situation and I saw the train comming, I'm leavin' the car. I can get another car.

[Anonymous]

I think the authorities should probably do a combination of things mentioned above. New York City had great success when it painted an anti-gridlock white box around crowded traffic intersections and subjected anyone who entered it to a fine unless they passed right out of it. No question of how deliberate it was; the cars don't drive themselves. (Although in Chicago we have this funny notion that the guy behind you honking should be allowed to impel traffic.) Wouldn't this anti-gridlock box work for train/car "intersections" as well?

One thing that was mentioned on TV was that (apparently) some of the nearby crossings are semi-synchonized to the extent that a train two (rail) blocks away will trigger the stop light on the other side of the crossing to freeze on green and therefore make it more likely that the bunched-up traffic can clear the tracks.

None of this obviates the fact that people must DELIBERATELY and AGAINST THE RULES enter into a crossing. Even if (a) the gates aren't lowering nobody has to get stuck on the tracks who will (b) not cross the tracks until s/he is sure there is room for their vehicle on the other side of the tracks. Let Whoozits behind you honk away; his days are numbered anyhow.

[eastside]

QUOTE: Originally posted by smalling_60626

New York City had great success when it painted an anti-gridlock white box around crowded traffic intersections and subjected anyone who entered it to a fine unless they passed right out of it.

Not in my experience, and there are lots of those in my neighborhood! The fine is over $100 and a point. I've never seen an motorist get a ticket, and that may be the reason. It may be that there are fewer cars "blocking the box," however. Never-the-less, I wouldn't call it a noticeable success.