TV just broadcast Amtrak's David Gunn fired...!!!!!!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CopCarSS

QUOTE: Originally posted by dave e

The board members that voted to Fire Mr. Gunn have all been appointed by Bush. Draw your own conclusions.

OK. Andrew Johnson was Abraham Lincoln's Vice-President. Draw your own conclusions.

Chris
Denver, CO

Ok, I conclude that....uhmmm....George Bush is even a worse President than Andrew Johnson was? (Johnson is widely regarded as one of our worst Presidents.)[:)][:)]

[espeefoamer]

Fire Mineta, and all other Amtrak board members who voted to fire Gunn[:(!].

[CopCarSS]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jarubel
Ok, I conclude that....uhmmm....George Bush is even a worse President than Andrew Johnson was? (Johnson is widely regarded as one of our worst Presidents.)

Exactly my point. And though he wasn't always at the time (and still isn't in the south), Abraham Lincoln is considered one of the best. To just throw some wild association out into webdom, and let anyone make assumptions without really looking into anything is fodder for emotionally spirited but uniformed opinion.

Had you not known anything about Andrew Johnson other than what I said, what would your thoughts have been? Well, if he's associated with Honest Abe, he must've been OK. Hardly. The botch job of carpet bagging reconstruction in the South would make this Amtrak discussion seem downright silly.

I just don't like posts that don't add anything to the discussion but politically based hatred.

[CG9602]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CopCarSS

QUOTE: Originally posted by CG9602

Here's one thing to think about for those who want to privatize or shut down rail service: How aboput privatizing every last inch of the Interstate Highway System, and having the new owners charge what the market will bear? We expect Amtrak to turn a profit, how about expecting the same of the Interstates? Oh, and while you're at it, privatize all metropolitan airports, and the entire U.S. air traffic control system. If you can't afford to by stock ownership in a particular airport, have a rule that your airline can't serve that city. How many airlines would stay in business if they had to build airports completely from the ground up?

I say, if we are going to privatize intercity and interstate rail service, let's privatize the Interstate Highways, make them all toll roads, as well as my suggestions regarding airports.

/sarcasm/ Oh wait - that might force us all to recognise our contradictions! Heaven forbid, we can't have that! /sarcasm/

It's kind of interesting that when railroads were just catching on in this country that most major long distance roads were privately owned toll roads, and that airline travel didn't exist. Railroads and Water Travel (especially canals) were heavily subsidied by both the Federal and State governments, as they were the main ways to travel at that time. Kind of like autos and airplanes today. Majority rules. Sorry.

You missed my point completely. If we expect profitability from one form of transport, we should expect profitability from all of them. When was the last time the Interstate Highway System showed a profit? When was the last time O'Hare showed a profit? When was the last time the Army Corps of Engineers showed a profit? If not, then why are these not expected to show profits while Amtrak is? The taxpayer subsidizes them all. If the "profitability" test should be required for one of the forms of transport, then let's apply it to all of them. Where were the investors during the 1950s up to the present day regarding private limited access expressways? If it isn't required for one - regardless of if it is used by the vast majority of people - then it shouldn't be required for any of them.

[Modelcar]

....It sure can be and is a politically charged subject....That is, Amtrak...and now we have the very active, aggressive, hard working president and CEO who was fired. Many of us think it was a political move to get him out of the system so they {the Board} could move towards disassembling our national rail passenger system. And since many of us think it is simply carrying out Pres. Bush's wishes of stopping the service of Amtrak. Of course it's going to create a heated debate on this foum....It's a charged subject. Just hope we can be civil about it.......Emotions are high on both sides.

[jeaton]

An interesting side note. I just scanned over the 165 page report of the GAO on Amtrak's procedures and controls. Interestingly this report was made at the request of Representative Don Young (R) Alaska. It was delivered to him on October 4, 2005 over the signature of JayEtta Z. Hecker who chaired the GAO audit team. The transmittal letter said that the report would not be distributed to anyone else for 30 days.

There is no doubt that many of Amtrak's procedures have serious shortcomings, but in every area investigated, the report acknowledged that Dave Gunn has made improvements. As Gunn noted in his comments on the draft report, the focus of the report is on the process and not on the performance. There is no specific allegation or documentation that any money was lost or wasted by Amtrak.

Sound business procedures and controls are extremely important and I agree that this is expecially true when tax dollars are involved. However the development and installation of these things are not cheap, and when an organization is scraping together every dollar just to keep the machinery running, it is not easy to throw out millions for a crash program to get all the control and procedure bells and gongs in place.

Gunn noted that this was the fifth GAO audit undertaken since he was apointed president of Amtrak and the sixth was about to be started. Given that the audit team consisted of about a dozen people from the GAO, and extensive interviews were conducted with Amtrak senior management, it would probably have been more productive to give the money spent on the audit as a grant to Amtrak.

Interestingly, Sec. Mineta jumped on the report to use for his latest blast against Amtrak. The ironic thing is that the largest blame for the shortcomings was laid on the Board of Directors, of which Mineta is one. The board has met monthly as required, but Mineta has always sent one of the DOT lawyers in his place. The audit report notes that none of the Directors' committees have met for at least two years and the important legal responsibility of the Board to oversee the company has been virtually ignored.

According to one report, Gunn was asked to resign but refused. Since he was fired, maybe Amtrak will have to buy out his contract. Actually, Warrington got bonus pay for his last year so maybe fair is fair.

Jay

[CopCarSS]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CG9602
You missed my point completely. If we expect profitability from one form of transport, we should expect profitability from all of them. When was the last time the Interstate Highway System showed a profit? When was the last time O'Hare showed a profit? When was the last time the Army Corps of Engineers showed a profit? If not, then why are these not expected to show profits while Amtrak is? The taxpayer subsidizes them all. If the "profitability" test should be required for one of the forms of transport, then let's apply it to all of them. Where were the investors during the 1950s up to the present day regarding private limited access expressways? If it isn't required for one - regardless of if it is used by the vast majority of people - then it shouldn't be required for any of them.

So should I, and a small minorty of other folks decide to start using horses, should I be subsidised? Should I write my congressmen and tell them that if no other form of transport should be required to turn a profit, then I plan on getting a horse, and expect an equine reimbursement from the government?

Chris
Denver, CO

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CopCarSS

QUOTE: Originally posted by CG9602

Here's one thing to think about for those who want to privatize or shut down rail service: How aboput privatizing every last inch of the Interstate Highway System, and having the new owners charge what the market will bear? We expect Amtrak to turn a profit, how about expecting the same of the Interstates? Oh, and while you're at it, privatize all metropolitan airports, and the entire U.S. air traffic control system. If you can't afford to by stock ownership in a particular airport, have a rule that your airline can't serve that city. How many airlines would stay in business if they had to build airports completely from the ground up?

I say, if we are going to privatize intercity and interstate rail service, let's privatize the Interstate Highways, make them all toll roads, as well as my suggestions regarding airports.

/sarcasm/ Oh wait - that might force us all to recognise our contradictions! Heaven forbid, we can't have that! /sarcasm/

It's kind of interesting that when railroads were just catching on in this country that most major long distance roads were privately owned toll roads, and that airline travel didn't exist. Railroads and Water Travel (especially canals) were heavily subsidied by both the Federal and State governments, as they were the main ways to travel at that time. Kind of like autos and airplanes today. Majority rules. Sorry.

Then airlines would be the odd man out in the NEC.

The VAST majority of RRs built in the 19th century weren't subsidized at all. And, of those that were, the subsidy was almost entirely indirect - no direct construction funding. Gov't involvement was usually limited to granting a charter to allow construction.

The issue isn't, and shouldn't be, one of perceived fairness, but one of common good and most efficient service provider.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CG9602

Here's one thing to think about for those who want to privatize or shut down rail service: How aboput privatizing every last inch of the Interstate Highway System, and having the new owners charge what the market will bear? We expect Amtrak to turn a profit, how about expecting the same of the Interstates? Oh, and while you're at it, privatize all metropolitan airports, and the entire U.S. air traffic control system. If you can't afford to by stock ownership in a particular airport, have a rule that your airline can't serve that city. How many airlines would stay in business if they had to build airports completely from the ground up?

I say, if we are going to privatize intercity and interstate rail service, let's privatize the Interstate Highways, make them all toll roads, as well as my suggestions regarding airports.

/sarcasm/ Oh wait - that might force us all to recognise our contradictions! Heaven forbid, we can't have that! /sarcasm/

What makes you think there aren't plans to do just that? Private highways have been proposed in Texas and tollways exist in many other states. Even the non-combat units of the military are being outsourced to private contractors. Maybe the Feds have a plan to sell the Mississippi River to BNSF.[:D][:D][:D]

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CopCarSS

QUOTE: Originally posted by CG9602
You missed my point completely. If we expect profitability from one form of transport, we should expect profitability from all of them. When was the last time the Interstate Highway System showed a profit? When was the last time O'Hare showed a profit? When was the last time the Army Corps of Engineers showed a profit? If not, then why are these not expected to show profits while Amtrak is? The taxpayer subsidizes them all. If the "profitability" test should be required for one of the forms of transport, then let's apply it to all of them. Where were the investors during the 1950s up to the present day regarding private limited access expressways? If it isn't required for one - regardless of if it is used by the vast majority of people - then it shouldn't be required for any of them.

So should I, and a small minorty of other folks decide to start using horses, should I be subsidised? Should I write my congressmen and tell them that if no other form of transport should be required to turn a profit, then I plan on getting a horse, and expect an equine reimbursement from the government?

Chris
Denver, CO

Only if you can convince Congress it's for the common good. Providing for the common good is a constitutional mandate.

[CopCarSS]

QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd
Only if you can convince Congress it's for the common good. Providing for the common good is a constitutional mandate.

That's kind of my point. Is Amtrak really serving the common good? If the vast majority of intercity travelers never even consider Amtrak as a travel option, let alone actually riding it, is it worthy of taxpayer dollars? If yes, then we need to fund it the way it should be. If no, then let it die.

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by up829

QUOTE: Originally posted by CG9602

Here's one thing to think about for those who want to privatize or shut down rail service: How aboput privatizing every last inch of the Interstate Highway System, and having the new owners charge what the market will bear? We expect Amtrak to turn a profit, how about expecting the same of the Interstates? Oh, and while you're at it, privatize all metropolitan airports, and the entire U.S. air traffic control system. If you can't afford to by stock ownership in a particular airport, have a rule that your airline can't serve that city. How many airlines would stay in business if they had to build airports completely from the ground up?

I say, if we are going to privatize intercity and interstate rail service, let's privatize the Interstate Highways, make them all toll roads, as well as my suggestions regarding airports.

/sarcasm/ Oh wait - that might force us all to recognise our contradictions! Heaven forbid, we can't have that! /sarcasm/

What makes you think there aren't plans to do just that? Private highways have been proposed in Texas and tollways exist in many other states. Even the non-combat units of the military are being outsourced to private contractors. Maybe the Feds have a plan to sell the Mississippi River to BNSF.[:D][:D][:D]

There have been a few toll roads proposed here in GA where the entire cost of construction would be funded from tolls (police, fire, rescue, maint, etc, NOT funded from tolls, however).

In EVERY case, the tolls was so outrageously high, (like $5 for a 30 mile suburban/rural trip) that the projects became a joke!

What's next? An airline building it's own airport?

[edbenton]

Actually since Amtrak is technically a corparation it requires a quarom to fire the CEO by the board of directors. Since the board is 7 members and only 3 people are on the board actually they did not have a majority of the board present.

[mnwestern]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jhhtrainsplanes

F Y I

Do you remember the article in Trains a while back about Mineta wanting to end Amtrak? In his speeches he gave false information about Amtrak. Mr. Mineta KNOWS the truth. He sits on the Amtrak Board. YES, he is a board member.

I thought board members were suspose to do what is right for the company or organization they oversee. It appears that even though Mineta knows the truth he continues to spread untruth.

Dear Sir:
Unfortunately, reports are that Mineta, soon to be one of just two people (Laney) the other, left on the board, has apparently never attended an Amtrak board meeting in his 52 months on the board. Now, that is having your finger on the pulse of an agency you are supposedly overseeing!

Mineta and the whole Amtrak board should be unseated, immediately. A new board should be appointed but not by the president.

Mr. Gunn should be rehired, IMMEDIATELY.

I have never distrusted an administration more than the current one. This firing is nothing BUT politics.

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CG9602

Here's one thing to think about for those who want to privatize or shut down rail service: How aboput privatizing every last inch of the Interstate Highway System, and having the new owners charge what the market will bear? We expect Amtrak to turn a profit, how about expecting the same of the Interstates? Oh, and while you're at it, privatize all metropolitan airports, and the entire U.S. air traffic control system. If you can't afford to by stock ownership in a particular airport, have a rule that your airline can't serve that city. How many airlines would stay in business if they had to build airports completely from the ground up?

I say, if we are going to privatize intercity and interstate rail service, let's privatize the Interstate Highways, make them all toll roads, as well as my suggestions regarding airports.

/sarcasm/ Oh wait - that might force us all to recognise our contradictions! Heaven forbid, we can't have that! /sarcasm/

My sentiments exactly.

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CopCarSS

QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd
Only if you can convince Congress it's for the common good. Providing for the common good is a constitutional mandate.

That's kind of my point. Is Amtrak really serving the common good? If the vast majority of intercity travelers never even consider Amtrak as a travel option, let alone actually riding it, is it worthy of taxpayer dollars? If yes, then we need to fund it the way it should be. If no, then let it die.

Now we're to the point of debate!

I think the issue isn't whether a majority of Americans consider using it, it's whether a majority of Americans want it around. The majority of Americans don't use Medicaid, but the majority think it should exist - even though it is a huge cost.

Every poll I've ever seen says the answer is "yes" - the gov't should keep funding or expand funding for Amtrak.

"Being worthy or taxpayer dollars " is a value judgement.

Does it really matter if we want it as kinetic art or useful transportation?

[Anonymous]

AS FAR AS THE AMTRAK BOARD AND THE BU***EAM GO " SEND IN THE CLOWNS ,DONT BOTHER THRIR HERE"

[CopCarSS]

QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd
Now we're to the point of debate!

I think the issue isn't whether a majority of Americans consider using it, it's whether a majority of Americans want it around. The majority of Americans don't use Medicaid, but the majority think it should exist - even though it is a huge cost.

Every poll I've ever seen says the answer is "yes" - the gov't should keep funding or expand funding for Amtrak.

"Being worthy or taxpayer dollars " is a value judgement.

Does it really matter if we want it as kinetic art or useful transportation?

Well, if it's "Kinetic Art" then it can stay...though it was a little more artful with F40's instead of the new GE's! [:p]

I guess if the majority of Americans think it should exist, it would be hard to argue the point. I'm still a fan of voting by riding, rather than just paying lip service, but if America says it should exist, and doesn't mind footing the bill, then its pretty clear that Amtrak has a reason to be. Have there been polls done to prove that the majority does think it should exist? I'd be interested in seeing those numbers.

In the end, I'm still against it unless we can commit the kind of monies needed to make it what it should be instead of allowing it to limp on year after painful year. I'll also continue to ride Amtrak as long as possible so that I may vote by ridership.

[CopCarSS]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TRAINMANTOM

AS FAR AS THE AMTRAK BOARD AND THE BU***EAM GO " SEND IN THE CLOWNS ,DONT BOTHER THRIR HERE"

Please don't shout Sondheim. It's a soft song. If you must shout a Sondheim piece (and even then only in certain places), may I suggest "Comedy Tonight?" Getting the spelling correct on "they're" would probably be beneficial, too...

Chris
Denver, CO

[Anonymous]

Nova Scotia will welcome him back, (retirement again). Maybe CN will hire him and get some trains running in Eastern Canada again. I miss trains.

[Anonymous]

AS FAR AS THE AMTRAK BOARD AND THE BU***EAM GO " SEND IN THE CLOWNS ,DONT BOTHER THEY ARE HERE"

[oltmannd]

Admittedly 3 years old, but here are some poll results:

http://www.aprc.org/gov_support.htm

Doubt much has changed since 2002...

[Junctionfan]

The firing of Gunn is just the a simple political exercise of stupidity. Thease guys don't care about what they do, they simply want to be re-elected or become something higher. What's my point?-thease guys are s&*t-heads because anybody else would normally take pride in their work or move on. Why would Amtrak board of directors try to ruin Amtrak when that means they would be out of a job-something stinks here.

Are thease guys awesome or what? "Let's spend alot of our time pretending we give a crap about Amtrak and then try to shut it down"........this is the impression they are giving me.

You can understand why people have little patience with politics because really, it doesn't work. Mean time, Mineta- the Secretary of Worthless Transportation, continues to pretend he is worth his weight in gold. More like the worth of dirt if you ask me.

[Modelcar]

...I don't mind my tax dollars going to Amtrak....even though I don't get to ride it that much....Better still, I'd like to see it improved and I don't mind paying for that either if it's being done by someone we have trust and confidence with...Such as Mr. Gunn...There are plenty of happenings in this country that are tax supported that an individual may not be directly getting the benefits from.

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

The firing of Gunn is just the a simple political exercise of stupidity. Thease guys don't care about what they do, they simply want to be re-elected or become something higher. What's my point?-thease guys are s&*t-heads because anybody else would normally take pride in their work or move on. Why would Amtrak board of directors try to ruin Amtrak when that means they would be out of a job-something stinks here.

Are thease guys awesome or what? "Let's spend alot of our time pretending we give a crap about Amtrak and then try to shut it down"........this is the impression they are giving me.

You can understand why people have little patience with politics because really, it doesn't work. Mean time, Mineta- the Secretary of Worthless Transportation, continues to pretend he is worth his weight in gold. More like the worth of dirt if you ask me.

Politics....Politics...Politics

Watching the political process is a lot like watching sausage being made....IT IS NOT SOMETHING YOU WANT TO WATCH. Would that something good comes out of this blatanly political firing, however, Sausage that is made by amatuers that don't care about the product and in fact want to get out of the business of even making sausage is generally not fit for human consumption.

[Junctionfan]

Well said

Another thing that irritates me about politicians is their rhetoric and lack of intelligent decision making processes that are need to run things. Most of thease politicians falls into at least the whimp or moron category. No wonder why nothing works right-they are the reason. Perhaps thease folk should submit a resume with references to see if they are trully up to job because for so far in both of our countries, I am not particularly impressed with the majority of politicians.

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

Well said

Another thing that irritates me about politicians is their rhetoric and lack of intelligent decision making processes that are need to run things. Most of thease politicians falls into at least the whimp or moron category. No wonder why nothing works right-they are the reason. Perhaps thease folk should submit a resume with references to see if they are trully up to job because for so far in both of our countries, I am not particularly impressed with the majority of politicians.

I has been my observation, in the US at least, the government is most fair and effective when the President and Congress are controlled by the different political parties. When both are in the hands of the same party (and I don't care if it is Republican or Democrat) that party and it minions feel they can do anything they want. When the President and Congress are controlled by different interests, then they must work together and compromise their entrenched positions to accomplish anything. With the US government now being in the control of the Republicans they are fulfilling the saying, 'Absolute Power corrupts...absolutely!'

[Modelcar]

...Divided government seems to have the checks and balances we really need to keep it from running amuck...with our money and making good decisions.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

...I don't mind my tax dollars going to Amtrak....even though I don't get to ride it that much....Better still, I'd like to see it improved and I don't mind paying for that either if it's being done by someone we have trust and confidence with...Such as Mr. Gunn...There are plenty of happenings in this country that are tax supported that an individual may not be directly getting the benefits from.

I have ridden Amtrak and look forward to the time when I can again. I have never ridden any train in the Northwest Corridor, yet my tax dollars go to fund those trains. If Amtrak is shut down ALL of Amtrak should be shut down. This cut it up and piece it out is nonsense.

If this country can fund trains in Iraq, why can't we fund them here?

If you have not emailed your congress people please do so. There are several links on (about) page 3 to help you.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jhhtrainsplanes

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

...I don't mind my tax dollars going to Amtrak....even though I don't get to ride it that much....Better still, I'd like to see it improved and I don't mind paying for that either if it's being done by someone we have trust and confidence with...Such as Mr. Gunn...There are plenty of happenings in this country that are tax supported that an individual may not be directly getting the benefits from.

I have ridden Amtrak and look forward to the time when I can again. I have never ridden any train in the Northwest Corridor, yet my tax dollars go to fund those trains. If Amtrak is shut down ALL of Amtrak should be shut down. This cut it up and piece it out is nonsense.

If this country can fund trains in Iraq, why can't we fund them here?

If you have not emailed your congress people please do so. There are several links on (about) page 3 to help you.

Please do not let the current administration piece out Amtrak. Please do not let the firing of Mr. Gunn go unnoticed in congress.

IF you have not emailed, called, or written your congress people DO IT NOW. Folks it is now or never for Amtrak. Don't let Amtrak die at the hand of this current administration.