TV just broadcast Amtrak's David Gunn fired...!!!!!!

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by up829

QUOTE: Originally posted by CG9602

Here's one thing to think about for those who want to privatize or shut down rail service: How aboput privatizing every last inch of the Interstate Highway System, and having the new owners charge what the market will bear? We expect Amtrak to turn a profit, how about expecting the same of the Interstates? Oh, and while you're at it, privatize all metropolitan airports, and the entire U.S. air traffic control system. If you can't afford to by stock ownership in a particular airport, have a rule that your airline can't serve that city. How many airlines would stay in business if they had to build airports completely from the ground up?

I say, if we are going to privatize intercity and interstate rail service, let's privatize the Interstate Highways, make them all toll roads, as well as my suggestions regarding airports.

/sarcasm/ Oh wait - that might force us all to recognise our contradictions! Heaven forbid, we can't have that! /sarcasm/

What makes you think there aren't plans to do just that? Private highways have been proposed in Texas and tollways exist in many other states. Even the non-combat units of the military are being outsourced to private contractors. Maybe the Feds have a plan to sell the Mississippi River to BNSF.[:D][:D][:D]

There have been a few toll roads proposed here in GA where the entire cost of construction would be funded from tolls (police, fire, rescue, maint, etc, NOT funded from tolls, however).

In EVERY case, the tolls was so outrageously high, (like $5 for a 30 mile suburban/rural trip) that the projects became a joke!

What's next? An airline building it's own airport?

[CopCarSS]

QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd
Only if you can convince Congress it's for the common good. Providing for the common good is a constitutional mandate.

That's kind of my point. Is Amtrak really serving the common good? If the vast majority of intercity travelers never even consider Amtrak as a travel option, let alone actually riding it, is it worthy of taxpayer dollars? If yes, then we need to fund it the way it should be. If no, then let it die.

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CopCarSS

QUOTE: Originally posted by CG9602
You missed my point completely. If we expect profitability from one form of transport, we should expect profitability from all of them. When was the last time the Interstate Highway System showed a profit? When was the last time O'Hare showed a profit? When was the last time the Army Corps of Engineers showed a profit? If not, then why are these not expected to show profits while Amtrak is? The taxpayer subsidizes them all. If the "profitability" test should be required for one of the forms of transport, then let's apply it to all of them. Where were the investors during the 1950s up to the present day regarding private limited access expressways? If it isn't required for one - regardless of if it is used by the vast majority of people - then it shouldn't be required for any of them.

So should I, and a small minorty of other folks decide to start using horses, should I be subsidised? Should I write my congressmen and tell them that if no other form of transport should be required to turn a profit, then I plan on getting a horse, and expect an equine reimbursement from the government?

Chris
Denver, CO

Only if you can convince Congress it's for the common good. Providing for the common good is a constitutional mandate.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CG9602

Here's one thing to think about for those who want to privatize or shut down rail service: How aboput privatizing every last inch of the Interstate Highway System, and having the new owners charge what the market will bear? We expect Amtrak to turn a profit, how about expecting the same of the Interstates? Oh, and while you're at it, privatize all metropolitan airports, and the entire U.S. air traffic control system. If you can't afford to by stock ownership in a particular airport, have a rule that your airline can't serve that city. How many airlines would stay in business if they had to build airports completely from the ground up?

I say, if we are going to privatize intercity and interstate rail service, let's privatize the Interstate Highways, make them all toll roads, as well as my suggestions regarding airports.

/sarcasm/ Oh wait - that might force us all to recognise our contradictions! Heaven forbid, we can't have that! /sarcasm/

What makes you think there aren't plans to do just that? Private highways have been proposed in Texas and tollways exist in many other states. Even the non-combat units of the military are being outsourced to private contractors. Maybe the Feds have a plan to sell the Mississippi River to BNSF.[:D][:D][:D]

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CopCarSS

QUOTE: Originally posted by CG9602

Here's one thing to think about for those who want to privatize or shut down rail service: How aboput privatizing every last inch of the Interstate Highway System, and having the new owners charge what the market will bear? We expect Amtrak to turn a profit, how about expecting the same of the Interstates? Oh, and while you're at it, privatize all metropolitan airports, and the entire U.S. air traffic control system. If you can't afford to by stock ownership in a particular airport, have a rule that your airline can't serve that city. How many airlines would stay in business if they had to build airports completely from the ground up?

I say, if we are going to privatize intercity and interstate rail service, let's privatize the Interstate Highways, make them all toll roads, as well as my suggestions regarding airports.

/sarcasm/ Oh wait - that might force us all to recognise our contradictions! Heaven forbid, we can't have that! /sarcasm/

It's kind of interesting that when railroads were just catching on in this country that most major long distance roads were privately owned toll roads, and that airline travel didn't exist. Railroads and Water Travel (especially canals) were heavily subsidied by both the Federal and State governments, as they were the main ways to travel at that time. Kind of like autos and airplanes today. Majority rules. Sorry.

Then airlines would be the odd man out in the NEC.

The VAST majority of RRs built in the 19th century weren't subsidized at all. And, of those that were, the subsidy was almost entirely indirect - no direct construction funding. Gov't involvement was usually limited to granting a charter to allow construction.

The issue isn't, and shouldn't be, one of perceived fairness, but one of common good and most efficient service provider.

[CopCarSS]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CG9602
You missed my point completely. If we expect profitability from one form of transport, we should expect profitability from all of them. When was the last time the Interstate Highway System showed a profit? When was the last time O'Hare showed a profit? When was the last time the Army Corps of Engineers showed a profit? If not, then why are these not expected to show profits while Amtrak is? The taxpayer subsidizes them all. If the "profitability" test should be required for one of the forms of transport, then let's apply it to all of them. Where were the investors during the 1950s up to the present day regarding private limited access expressways? If it isn't required for one - regardless of if it is used by the vast majority of people - then it shouldn't be required for any of them.

So should I, and a small minorty of other folks decide to start using horses, should I be subsidised? Should I write my congressmen and tell them that if no other form of transport should be required to turn a profit, then I plan on getting a horse, and expect an equine reimbursement from the government?

Chris
Denver, CO

[jeaton]

An interesting side note. I just scanned over the 165 page report of the GAO on Amtrak's procedures and controls. Interestingly this report was made at the request of Representative Don Young (R) Alaska. It was delivered to him on October 4, 2005 over the signature of JayEtta Z. Hecker who chaired the GAO audit team. The transmittal letter said that the report would not be distributed to anyone else for 30 days.

There is no doubt that many of Amtrak's procedures have serious shortcomings, but in every area investigated, the report acknowledged that Dave Gunn has made improvements. As Gunn noted in his comments on the draft report, the focus of the report is on the process and not on the performance. There is no specific allegation or documentation that any money was lost or wasted by Amtrak.

Sound business procedures and controls are extremely important and I agree that this is expecially true when tax dollars are involved. However the development and installation of these things are not cheap, and when an organization is scraping together every dollar just to keep the machinery running, it is not easy to throw out millions for a crash program to get all the control and procedure bells and gongs in place.

Gunn noted that this was the fifth GAO audit undertaken since he was apointed president of Amtrak and the sixth was about to be started. Given that the audit team consisted of about a dozen people from the GAO, and extensive interviews were conducted with Amtrak senior management, it would probably have been more productive to give the money spent on the audit as a grant to Amtrak.

Interestingly, Sec. Mineta jumped on the report to use for his latest blast against Amtrak. The ironic thing is that the largest blame for the shortcomings was laid on the Board of Directors, of which Mineta is one. The board has met monthly as required, but Mineta has always sent one of the DOT lawyers in his place. The audit report notes that none of the Directors' committees have met for at least two years and the important legal responsibility of the Board to oversee the company has been virtually ignored.

According to one report, Gunn was asked to resign but refused. Since he was fired, maybe Amtrak will have to buy out his contract. Actually, Warrington got bonus pay for his last year so maybe fair is fair.

Jay

[Modelcar]

....It sure can be and is a politically charged subject....That is, Amtrak...and now we have the very active, aggressive, hard working president and CEO who was fired. Many of us think it was a political move to get him out of the system so they {the Board} could move towards disassembling our national rail passenger system. And since many of us think it is simply carrying out Pres. Bush's wishes of stopping the service of Amtrak. Of course it's going to create a heated debate on this foum....It's a charged subject. Just hope we can be civil about it.......Emotions are high on both sides.

[CG9602]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CopCarSS

QUOTE: Originally posted by CG9602

Here's one thing to think about for those who want to privatize or shut down rail service: How aboput privatizing every last inch of the Interstate Highway System, and having the new owners charge what the market will bear? We expect Amtrak to turn a profit, how about expecting the same of the Interstates? Oh, and while you're at it, privatize all metropolitan airports, and the entire U.S. air traffic control system. If you can't afford to by stock ownership in a particular airport, have a rule that your airline can't serve that city. How many airlines would stay in business if they had to build airports completely from the ground up?

I say, if we are going to privatize intercity and interstate rail service, let's privatize the Interstate Highways, make them all toll roads, as well as my suggestions regarding airports.

/sarcasm/ Oh wait - that might force us all to recognise our contradictions! Heaven forbid, we can't have that! /sarcasm/

It's kind of interesting that when railroads were just catching on in this country that most major long distance roads were privately owned toll roads, and that airline travel didn't exist. Railroads and Water Travel (especially canals) were heavily subsidied by both the Federal and State governments, as they were the main ways to travel at that time. Kind of like autos and airplanes today. Majority rules. Sorry.

You missed my point completely. If we expect profitability from one form of transport, we should expect profitability from all of them. When was the last time the Interstate Highway System showed a profit? When was the last time O'Hare showed a profit? When was the last time the Army Corps of Engineers showed a profit? If not, then why are these not expected to show profits while Amtrak is? The taxpayer subsidizes them all. If the "profitability" test should be required for one of the forms of transport, then let's apply it to all of them. Where were the investors during the 1950s up to the present day regarding private limited access expressways? If it isn't required for one - regardless of if it is used by the vast majority of people - then it shouldn't be required for any of them.

[CopCarSS]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jarubel
Ok, I conclude that....uhmmm....George Bush is even a worse President than Andrew Johnson was? (Johnson is widely regarded as one of our worst Presidents.)

Exactly my point. And though he wasn't always at the time (and still isn't in the south), Abraham Lincoln is considered one of the best. To just throw some wild association out into webdom, and let anyone make assumptions without really looking into anything is fodder for emotionally spirited but uniformed opinion.

Had you not known anything about Andrew Johnson other than what I said, what would your thoughts have been? Well, if he's associated with Honest Abe, he must've been OK. Hardly. The botch job of carpet bagging reconstruction in the South would make this Amtrak discussion seem downright silly.

I just don't like posts that don't add anything to the discussion but politically based hatred.

[espeefoamer]

Fire Mineta, and all other Amtrak board members who voted to fire Gunn[:(!].

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CopCarSS

QUOTE: Originally posted by dave e

The board members that voted to Fire Mr. Gunn have all been appointed by Bush. Draw your own conclusions.

OK. Andrew Johnson was Abraham Lincoln's Vice-President. Draw your own conclusions.

Chris
Denver, CO

Ok, I conclude that....uhmmm....George Bush is even a worse President than Andrew Johnson was? (Johnson is widely regarded as one of our worst Presidents.)[:)][:)]

[CopCarSS]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dave e

The board members that voted to Fire Mr. Gunn have all been appointed by Bush. Draw your own conclusions.

OK. Andrew Johnson was Abraham Lincoln's Vice-President. Draw your own conclusions.

Chris
Denver, CO

[Anonymous]

The board members that voted to Fire Mr. Gunn have all been appointed by Bush. Draw your own conclusions.

[Anonymous]

Looks like that hearing will be on Tuesday.

November 15
Subcommittee on Railroads
Hearing on
Current Governance Issues at Amtrak
10:00 a.m.
2325 Rayburn House Office Building

http://www.house.gov/transportation/rail/schedule.html

[Modelcar]

...I have no idea if Mr. Gunn would be present to testiy but if he would I'd believe it sure would be interesting....

[jeaton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jarubel

Just found a little more information on that hearing using Google news search. Apparently Rep. Oberstar of Minnesota is seeking a hearing next week in which Gunn would testify. Sen. Schumer of New York and other democrats say the removal may have been illegal. I doubt there is much chance that Gunn could be reinstated, or is there?

My personal view? Dave Gunn wouldn't come back on the job even if we built a high speed passenger railroad from the back 40 of his Nova Scotia farm all the way to the Amtrak offices in Washington Union Station.

[CopCarSS]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CG9602

Here's one thing to think about for those who want to privatize or shut down rail service: How aboput privatizing every last inch of the Interstate Highway System, and having the new owners charge what the market will bear? We expect Amtrak to turn a profit, how about expecting the same of the Interstates? Oh, and while you're at it, privatize all metropolitan airports, and the entire U.S. air traffic control system. If you can't afford to by stock ownership in a particular airport, have a rule that your airline can't serve that city. How many airlines would stay in business if they had to build airports completely from the ground up?

I say, if we are going to privatize intercity and interstate rail service, let's privatize the Interstate Highways, make them all toll roads, as well as my suggestions regarding airports.

/sarcasm/ Oh wait - that might force us all to recognise our contradictions! Heaven forbid, we can't have that! /sarcasm/

It's kind of interesting that when railroads were just catching on in this country that most major long distance roads were privately owned toll roads, and that airline travel didn't exist. Railroads and Water Travel (especially canals) were heavily subsidied by both the Federal and State governments, as they were the main ways to travel at that time. Kind of like autos and airplanes today. Majority rules. Sorry.

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by swknox

Just remember Mr. Bush is the puppettier controling all the strings.... I think the democrates are going to kick the republicans butt in a year in the next round of voting.

Cheney is the 'silent' puppettier....Bu***he puppet and mouthpiece. They are both dragging this country down, down, down the slippery slope to polarization and decline.

[Anonymous]

Just found a little more information on that hearing using Google news search. Apparently Rep. Oberstar of Minnesota is seeking a hearing next week in which Gunn would testify. Sen. Schumer of New York and other democrats say the removal may have been illegal. I doubt there is much chance that Gunn could be reinstated, or is there?

[Modelcar]

...Info of hearing was in newpaper today...{I believe it's next Wednesday}.

[CG9602]

Here's one thing to think about for those who want to privatize or shut down rail service: How aboput privatizing every last inch of the Interstate Highway System, and having the new owners charge what the market will bear? We expect Amtrak to turn a profit, how about expecting the same of the Interstates? Oh, and while you're at it, privatize all metropolitan airports, and the entire U.S. air traffic control system. If you can't afford to by stock ownership in a particular airport, have a rule that your airline can't serve that city. How many airlines would stay in business if they had to build airports completely from the ground up?

I say, if we are going to privatize intercity and interstate rail service, let's privatize the Interstate Highways, make them all toll roads, as well as my suggestions regarding airports.

/sarcasm/ Oh wait - that might force us all to recognise our contradictions! Heaven forbid, we can't have that! /sarcasm/

[Modelcar]

Wow....what a shame. The firing of Mr. Gunn and comparing his performance to produce results such as listed in above post...must provide a bewildered and sad feeling for him.

[Anonymous]

I read somewhere that congress will be having a hearing next week regarding the firing, but I can't remember where I read it. Has anyone heard about this, and is Gunn going to be there?

[TomDiehl]

And if you want a bit more of the facts and figures of the stupidity of this move:

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=Amtrak/am2Copy/News_Release_Page&c=am2Copy&cid=1093554022797&ssid=180

Since Amtrak would be so heavily audited, I think we can believe these figures. Ironically, this release was dated October 19, and the one "releasing" Gunn was dated November 11. I guess you shouldn't do too good a job.

[CopCarSS]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jhhtrainsplanes
[Once Amtrak is gone there will be NO more national passenger rail service. The American people MUST band together now to keep any national passener rail service or we will have none.


If Amtrak is killed that will just be more money for Halliburton contracts. [:(!] No wonder the pres and vice are pushing for Amtrak to be killed.

Jim,

Your second paragraph is a dangerous way to look at the situation. There's a lot of stuff that the money could be applied to rather than Halliburton contracts. How about the clean-up in areas affected by the record setting hurricanes of this year? Katrina alone is going to cost billions and billions of dollars before its all said and done.

I fear too many comments like this could send this spiraling into yet another thread full of conservative ~vs~ liberal hate filled name calling. Thus far we've stayed pretty close to the topic, with only occasional references to the current administration. Those references were always related to the topic on hand, and not generalized contempt irrelevant to our current topic.

I like that you've posted the links to congress. I think far too many people neglect their opportunities to voice their concerns to those they've elected to represent them. Voicing one's concern to one's congressmen in a well worded letter does a lot more good than most people think. I think elected officials would tend to listen to the concerns of those who voice their concerns as they know those that take the time to write will be in the ballet box every opportunity they are afforded.

Perhaps one other outlet you might try to tap is the media. Outline the topic in a clear, concise letter to your local media, and see what happens. There might not be any repsonse, but if there is, think of the publicity that a single newspaper article could generate. It could potentially start a snowball effect.

This is of course all just my [2c] on the matter, though.

[Modelcar]

....As suggested in above post of cutting off Amtrak for a quick death....Ok, but include the NEC with all the rest....We don't want to pay just for part of it....If all others must stop...then stop that busy section and see what problems that creates....It boggles my thoughts that so many are he** bent on eliminating our national passenger system...instead of trying to make a few improvements to make it work better but seem to be ok with supporting so many other efforts in the world {with our tax money}....for other people. Even refurbish railroads for others....

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

...Oh so true....Once it stops, it {the system and what it takes to run it will be gone forever}....Then the opposition will be satisfied.

And who knows where they will spend the money then....

Once Amtrak is gone there will be NO more national passenger rail service. The American people MUST band together now to keep any national passener rail service or we will have none.


If Amtrak is killed that will just be more money for Halliburton contracts. [:(!] No wonder the pres and vice are pushing for Amtrak to be killed.

[Anonymous]

If you had trouble with my previous link to congressional email addresses then here are some more for you to try:


http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/


http://www.conservativeusa.org/mega-cong.htm

[CopCarSS]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl
Unfortunately, once the infrastructure is dismantled, and the agreements with the freight railroads is allowed to lapse, it may be very difficult, if not impossible, to reassemble Amtrak and it's agreements. Remember, the railroads only agreed to the useage by Amtrak in exchange for taking the passenger trains off their hands (and balance sheets). And such specialized shops facilities aren't just sitting around to subcontract the work, waiting for that day to come.

Maybe, but at the same time there are markets where passenger travel is expanding. Look at Metra in Chicagoland. They're extending two lines that I know of, and talking about more.

Freeing the railroads of passenger responsibilities could have been accomplished just as easily by allowing the regulation of passenger trains to lapse. In which case, there would have been no Amtrak, and we would all be waxing philosophically about the halcyon days of rail travel, and great trains like the 20th Century Limited, the Super Chief, and the like.

I'm still of the opinion that a quick death is the best path for Amtrak in today's society. It may hurt in the long run, but we'll just have to wait and see what happens in the world in the future.