TV just broadcast Amtrak's David Gunn fired...!!!!!!

[trainboyH16-44]

But why?!!

[daveklepper]

See my comment on Ifish's posting below. Thank you.

[vsmith]

heres the link:
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=49278

[Modelcar]

...Mr. Gunn has seemingly been working on all operations of Amrtak to make changes and get rid of waste where possible and run the system as only a railroader knows how to do so....From what I've learned of his ability, knowledge and perserverance of the job at hand....I suppose he was "too good" in shaping a system with the resources he had to make it work...that the word finally went out from somewhere within this administration to "get him out of there" before it gets more difficult to shut the system down....What a shame....

[SALfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

...Mr. Gunn has seemingly been working on all operations of Amrtak to make changes and get rid of waste where possible and run the system as only a railroader knows how to do so....From what I've learned of his ability, knowledge and perserverance of the job at hand....I suppose he was "too good" in shaping a system with the resources he had to make it work...that the word finally went out from somewhere within this administration to "get him out of there" before it gets more difficult to shut the system down....What a shame....

I believe you hit the nail squarely on the head. At least from my perspective (admittedly limited knowledge), I thought Mr. Gunn was the best thing to happen to Amtrak since Mr. Claytor.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by JOdom

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

...Mr. Gunn has seemingly been working on all operations of Amrtak to make changes and get rid of waste where possible and run the system as only a railroader knows how to do so....From what I've learned of his ability, knowledge and perserverance of the job at hand....I suppose he was "too good" in shaping a system with the resources he had to make it work...that the word finally went out from somewhere within this administration to "get him out of there" before it gets more difficult to shut the system down....What a shame....

I believe you hit the nail squarely on the head. At least from my perspective (admittedly limited knowledge), I thought Mr. Gunn was the best thing to happen to Amtrak since Mr. Claytor.

It is past time to call or email your congresspeople. This cannot go unnoticed by the American people. This is a travesty and it is Mineta himself who should go, along with someone higher up than himself. I will definately voice my opinion today to my congresspeople.

Edit

I have emailed 2 of my congress people and have received an automatic reply from one. I suggest that if you support Amtrak you write, call, or email your congress TODAY.

[bbrant]

Who will be named to replace David Gunn?

[BentnoseWillie]

The press release says the board wants a "leader with vision and experience".

Seems to me they just fired one of those...

[UPTRAIN]

There wasn't anything wrong with David Gunn...Amtrak got out of the freight business, is using one locomotive on most short and long haul trains, AND rearranged some food services on trains (i.e. the Texas Eagle and Sunset Limited). My family voted for Bush, but I swear, I don't care if he was Bush appointed, that d@mn Norman Minetta better go, he's lied through his teeth long enough that son of a....

Another link: http://stlouis.bizjournals.com/stlouis/stories/2005/11/07/daily41.html

[Modelcar]

...Your so right...they just fired one of those...re: "leader with vision and experience"....They will have to search high and low to find a dedicated and knowledgeable person on the subject at hand....I doubt if anyone will want to take it on...That is one that will not be a puppet of this administration.....What a sad bunch of crap this notice is today...Coundn't hardly believe what I was seeing as I saw the bulletin coming across the TV screen this morning....
I agree with Jim above....Scream loud and clear to all the congresspeople you can think of....They all should hear it and the facts....!!

[pat390]

this is terrible news! Gunn was the best thing to ever happen to amtrak. Norn Mineta can go jump off a cliff

[UPTRAIN]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

...Your so right...they just fired one of those...re: "leader with vision and experience"....They will have to search high and low to find a dedicated and knowledgeable person on the subject at hand....I doubt if anyone will want to take it on...That is one that will not be a puppet of this administration.....What a sad bunch of crap this notice is today...Coundn't hardly believe what I was seeing as I saw the bulletin coming across the TV screen this morning....
I agree with Jim above....Scream loud and clear to all the congresspeople you can think of....They all should hear it and the facts....!!

I agree completely when you're talking about the "vision and experience", he was all of that, made a bunch of progress, and look at where he had been! Bob Johnston just did a huge article in TRAINS last month about how far he has come!

[Anonymous]

Ah now maybe Amtrak will evolve instead of just meeting the status quo.

[Anonymous]

F Y I

Do you remember the article in Trains a while back about Mineta wanting to end Amtrak? In his speeches he gave false information about Amtrak. Mr. Mineta KNOWS the truth. He sits on the Amtrak Board. YES, he is a board member.

I thought board members were suspose to do what is right for the company or organization they oversee. It appears that even though Mineta knows the truth he continues to spread untruth.

Mineta and the whole Amtrak board should be unseated, immediately. A new board should be appointed but not by the president.

Mr. Gunn should be rehired, IMMEDIATELY.

I have never distrusted an administration more than the current one. This firing is nothing BUT politics.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bbrant

Who will be named to replace David Gunn?

My guess, someone from Haliburton (spelling) who will mismanage more than ever done, and be paid 5 times the money Gunn was paid.

[jchnhtfd]

so much for Amtrak and passenger rail travel in the US... maybe now the folks who want to see the end of Amtrak (and there are a lot of them on this forum) will be happy; they certainly should be.

Sigh. Now folks like me, who are medically unable to use aircraft, will not be able to travel. At least I can still get across the Atlantic, thanks to the Brits and Cunard.

[Modelcar]

....Ok Jim, I just emailed my two Senators....Come on all you supporters of rail passenger service in our great country...get on the horn to your Rep. or Senators...

[jchnhtfd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

....Ok Jim, I just emailed my two Senators....Come on all you supporters of rail passenger service in our great country...get on the horn to your Rep. or Senators...

Done... although I am enough of a cynic to think it won't make any difference.[:(]

[Modelcar]

....But we tried....!

[Anonymous]

So the name of the game is do your job, but don't do it too good, or you'll get fired. That's pathetic.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

....Ok Jim, I just emailed my two Senators....Come on all you supporters of rail passenger service in our great country...get on the horn to your Rep. or Senators...

For those needing a little help in finding email address, use this:

http://www.webslingerz.com/jhoffman/congress-email.html

[Anonymous]

I just emailed another state senator. I know it will take days for a real reply, but at least I am voicing my opinion.

I am afriad, if we do not stand up for Amtrak now, we will loose it forever.

[Anonymous]

Has anyone considered sending a telegram to your elected officials? Seems like emails don't have much impact. I believe I read somewhere that a letter has more influence than an email, a phone call more than a letter and a telegram even more than a phone call.

[Anonymous]

Letters get more attention than phone calls and emails, because they take the most effort. However, all mail to Congress in Washington gets screened for anthrax, etc. They state a delay of at least 2 weeks, but it really runs about 6 weeks until they get your letter.

FAX the letter to them. Make it short, polite yet firm, and intelligent.

Jim

[StillGrande]

Seems he would not sing the administration's tune on what to do with Amtrak, so they fired him. The Board wants to break it up, he wanted to keep it together. The administration wants to end the subsidy, he want a bigger one (and Congress keeps giving something).

They will find someone with the "vision" to split the thing up and kill the long distance trains in favor of small regional or commuter style runs.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ConrailJim

Letters get the most attention. However, all mail to Congress in Washington gets screened for anthrax, etc. They state a delay of at least 2 weeks, but it really runs about 6 weeks until they get your letter.

FAX it to them.

Jim

I think if someone spent $14.99 to send me a telegram instead of 37 cents to send a letter it would carry a hell of a lot more weight.
http://www.westernunion.com/info/osTelegram.asp?country=US

[Anonymous]

I corrected my post after I thought about it, jarubel. I need to think more before I speak. Lol. How does that work, though? For $14.99, how does your message get to the person, and when does it get there?

Maybe things have changed recently ..... but letters sent via Express Mail (USPS) or Next Day Air (UPS) still get the security check. Used to, anyway. Who delivers the telegram to the Congressman's office? The local Western Union center? In my case, it is the Iranian immigrant who runs the little convience store.

Jim

QUOTE: Originally posted by jarubel

QUOTE: Originally posted by ConrailJim

Letters get the most attention. However, all mail to Congress in Washington gets screened for anthrax, etc. They state a delay of at least 2 weeks, but it really runs about 6 weeks until they get your letter.

FAX it to them.

Jim

I think if someone spent $14.99 to send me a telegram instead of 37 cents to send a letter it would carry a hell of a lot more weight.
http://www.westernunion.com/info/osTelegram.asp?country=US

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ConrailJim

I corrected my post after I thought about it, jarubel. How does that work, though? For $14.99, how does your message get to the person, and when does it get there?

Jim

QUOTE: Originally posted by jarubel

QUOTE: Originally posted by ConrailJim

Letters get the most attention. However, all mail to Congress in Washington gets screened for anthrax, etc. They state a delay of at least 2 weeks, but it really runs about 6 weeks until they get your letter.

FAX it to them.

Jim

I think if someone spent $14.99 to send me a telegram instead of 37 cents to send a letter it would carry a hell of a lot more weight.
http://www.westernunion.com/info/osTelegram.asp?country=US

Heres a link to frequently asked questions at the Western Union website regarding sending a telegram. http://www.westernunion.com/info/faqTelegram.asp
Apparently they don't have Western Union messengers anymore and all delivery is contracted out to couriers or some other form of delivery service. I delivered a few myself when I was a driver for a taxi company, but that was almost 15 years ago.

[edbenton]

Remember who appt Mineta Good ole boy W Bush did. He is just like his father when it comes to energy policy to heck with anything that might be efficent. We are in so much trouble with one party in control of the goverment it is not funny. Bush can almost push anything thourgh that he wants. At least when Sr was in office he had to negociate to get anything through. I have already sent emails to everyone of my reps in congress and I know that nothing will happen form them since I am only one voice. However next year our chance comes up to make a change we can STAND UP to big business and the special interests groups and VOTE OUT EVERYONE AND CHANGE CONGRESS. Maybe if that happens we will be taken seriously again. We do have the power in this country if we vote with our minds not just our party. If we want a good national rail system in this country elect people that will support one not just let it flutter in the wind.

Remember this leadership will stop at nothing to eliminate any oppisition to their plans.

[TomDiehl]

On CNN, their report ended with the statement that his firing might be politically motivated.

YA THINK????

A real "DUH" moment in newscasting.

[chad thomas]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl

On CNN, their report ended with the statement that his firing might be politically motivated.

YA THINK????

A real "DUH" moment in newscasting.

That's CNN for ya.[V]

[Anonymous]

The Administration wants Amtrak to make a profit, just like other transportations systems. Has the Admin. checked with the airlines lately? The're still sucking our tax money.

David Gunn has done a brilliant job of running Amtrak in the face of a transportation- iliterate Administration.

[Modelcar]

...Yea, CNN...Probably had it right this time....

[Anonymous]

And does the letter delivered by the Pakastani cab driver, even though it says Western Union, get into the Congressional offices? What kind of security is that? I'm not sure.

I did not want to argue with you, jarubel. We are on the same side....want the same thing. I don't want to come off as a know-it-all, because I don't. I only stuck my nose in because I am involved in other political matters, both here in NJ and in Washington. I learned this information from the large groups that always have the Congressmens' ears, and also thier very own staffers. I do not know what happens when you send a letter to your congressman's office in your home state, but I'm pretty sure a well written letter fax'ed to his Washington office, and also mailed and stated so, is the way to go.

Jim


Jim: *****************************************************************************************
Maybe things have changed recently ..... but letters sent via Express Mail (USPS) or Next Day Air (UPS) still get the security check. Used to, anyway. Who delivers the telegram to the Congressman's office? The local Western Union center? In my case, it is the Iranian immigrant who runs the little convience store.

Jim
***********************************************************************************************

QUOTE: Originally posted by jarubel

QUOTE: Originally posted by ConrailJim

I corrected my post after I thought about it, jarubel. How does that work, though? For $14.99, how does your message get to the person, and when does it get there?

Jim

QUOTE: Originally posted by jarubel

QUOTE: Originally posted by ConrailJim

Letters get the most attention. However, all mail to Congress in Washington gets screened for anthrax, etc. They state a delay of at least 2 weeks, but it really runs about 6 weeks until they get your letter.

FAX it to them.

Jim

I think if someone spent $14.99 to send me a telegram instead of 37 cents to send a letter it would carry a hell of a lot more weight.
http://www.westernunion.com/info/osTelegram.asp?country=US

Heres a link to frequently asked questions at the Western Union website regarding sending a telegram. http://www.westernunion.com/info/faqTelegram.asp
Apparently they don't have Western Union messengers anymore and all delivery is contracted out to couriers or some other form of delivery service. I delivered a few myself when I was a driver for a taxi company, but that was almost 15 years ago.

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainboyH16-44

But why?!!

From my perspective, Gunn was too close to making Amtrak a going concern....The Bush adminsitration wants to end Amtraks existance and Gunn was a roadblock to that aim. Goodbye Amtrak!

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SteamerFan

Ah now maybe Amtrak will evolve instead of just meeting the status quo.

A corpse is the evolution of living things....Amtrak is evolving to another Bush inspired corpse.

[Anonymous]

A GOOD MAN GONE, ALMOST LIKE A DEATH IN THE FAMILY. PL

[grandeman]

So, someone fired the gunn... [:p]














Sorry guys, just couldn't help it. [:)]

[Anonymous]

Do I hear "City of New Orleans"?

[espeefoamer]

Gunn was so good,he had the board of directors running scared.He was not afraid to shake things up and get to the bottom of a problem.The board of directors couldn't stand this,as they needed someone who would play thier game and keep quiet. They were probably happy with a loser like George Warrington[:(!][B)][8].

[CopCarSS]

At the risk of getting everybody in the forum upset with me...

While I do sympathize with you all, and like what Gunn was doing, at the same time I also realize that this is an anachronistic microcosm of American society that still believes in the viability of rail travel. So what if it is a move by the administration to begin the end of Amtrak?

I'd guess that upwards of 98% of Americans could really care less about Amtrak. How many of your non-railfans seriously consider train travel when they travel cross country? Granted, when I ride the train, the actual numbers of railfans is pretty low, but I also know that very few people consider train travel. To prove that, look at an Interstate Highway or an Airport Terminal. At peak times those entities service more people per minute than Amtrak could in a week. Perhaps a month in some markets.

Gunn was a good thing for Amtrak, but nothing he could have done could have changed the key problem with rail travel, the American mentality. In today's America, that isn't really likely to happen. Americans value speed and convenience as the paradigms of our society. Air travel offers speed, Auto travel offers convenience. Rail travel offers neither.

Even a hit in the pocketbooks (probably the third pillar of American life) hasn't done much to bring the masses to the rails. I'm traveling to Chicago in one week round trip for $160. Even with the rate war that Southwest Airlines has induced by finally jumping into the Denver market, there's no way I could match that by air or auto. It doesn't matter to most of America.

I travel Amtrak between Denver and Chicago at least 4 times a year. Would I miss Amtrak? Of course I would. Do I think that Gunn had a lot going for Amtrak? Yes I did. Do I think that there's a place for rail travel in America? Yes I do. Do I realize that I live in a land where the majority rules (and in this case it's a huge majority)? Yup.

If it's part of "The Plan" to fire Gunn and kill Amtrak, I say let it die. The coming energy crisis will force the issue when the time is right, and we'll see passenger trains on the tracks again. Perhaps at that time, it will be better received, and a man of Gunn's talents at the helm could truly bring the dream that we all have for passenger rail travel to fruition.

Stepping off the [soapbox] and putting on the asbestos suit!

[jeaton]

Chris-

Your arguements have merit, but it is interesting that surveys suggest that 70% of the American public thinks that rail passenger service is a good thing to have. True, they don't vote the subject with their pocket books (buying tickets), but the preference to have the service is clear. Why? I don't know. Maybe the general public just feels that the nation with the world's leading economy should have top quality highways, airports AND railroad trains.

As for me, Friday I am going to Washington, DC on Amtrak. Not only is it cheaper than driving and flying, but at certain times enroute I'll be able to step off the train for a quick smoke. Try doing that when flying.

Jay

[Train900]

Here's the press release from amtrak :

National Railroad Passenger Corporation
60 Massachusetts Avenue NE
Washington, DC 20002
www.amtrak.com

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Contact: Media Relations [phone]
ATK-05-090


November 11, 2005
Amtrak Board Releases Gunn

Railroad Begins Search for Experienced Reform Leader; David Hughes will run Amtrak until Successor is found
WASHINGTON - Amtrak's Board of Directors today released its President, David Gunn, saying that the passenger rail service needed to intensify the pace and broaden the scope of its reforms. Amtrak said that David Hughes, Chief Engineer, has been named Acting President and CEO, and that its Board of Directors has launched a national search to find the railroad's next leader.

Announcing the Board's decision, Amtrak Chairman David M. Laney said: "David Gunn has helped Amtrak make important operational improvements over the past three years. Amtrak's future now requires a different type of leader who will aggressively tackle the company's financial, management and operational challenges. The need to bring fundamental change to Amtrak is greater and more urgent than ever before. The Board approved a strategic plan in April that provides a blueprint for a stronger and more sustainable Amtrak. Now we need a leader with vision and experience to get the job done."

Gunn came out of retirement in May 2002 to lead Amtrak after a career that included running transit systems in New York and Washington, D.C.

The strategic plan produced by Amtrak's Board and management calls for fundamental change with the goal of delivering better service for passengers and an improving financial performance. The plan calls for competition in U.S. rail passenger service, shared federal-state financial responsibility for passenger rail, as is the case with highways and aviation, and predictable multi-year federal funding.

A report released last week by the Government Accountability Office credited Amtrak's management with some positive changes in recent years, but also was uncharacteristically blunt in concluding that more far-reaching changes were needed along the lines of those proposed by Amtrak's Board.

[SchemerBob]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CopCarSS

Would I miss Amtrak? Of course I would. Do I think that Gunn had a lot going for Amtrak? Yes I did. Do I think that there's a place for rail travel in America? Yes I do. Do I realize that I live in a land where the majority rules (and in this case it's a huge majority)? Yup.

If it's part of "The Plan" to fire Gunn and kill Amtrak, I say let it die. The coming energy crisis will force the issue when the time is right, and we'll see passenger trains on the tracks again. Perhaps at that time, it will be better received, and a man of Gunn's talents at the helm could truly bring the dream that we all have for passenger rail travel to fruition.

I have thought the exact same thing.

[coborn35]

"One ought never to turn one's back on a threatened danger and try to run away from it. If you do that, you will double the danger. But if you meet it promptly and without flinching, you will reduce the danger by half. "-Sir Winston Churchill

"The time to repair the roof is when the sun is shining."
-John F. Kennedy

"We need men who can dream of things that never were."
-John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963

"It is better to offer no excuse than a bad one."
-George Washington

"Never trust the advice of a man in difficulties."
-Aesop

"Self-conceit may lead to self-destruction."
-Aesop


Mineta.......

R.I.P. AMTRAK 1973-2006

[CSXrules4eva]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton

Chris-

Your arguements have merit, but it is interesting that surveys suggest that 70% of the American public thinks that rail passenger service is a good thing to have. True, they don't vote the subject with their pocket books (buying tickets), but the preference to have the service is clear. Why? I don't know. Maybe the general public just feels that the nation with the world's leading economy should have top quality highways, airports AND railroad trains.

As for me, Friday I am going to Washington, DC on Amtrak. Not only is it cheaper than driving and flying, but at certain times enroute I'll be able to step off the train for a quick smoke. Try doing that when flying.

Jay

A while back the government, came up with an alternitive to Amtrak, if it were to go into real deep water. Part of that proposal was the breaking up of Amtrak into state controlled rail operations. However, the government would contiune to run the NEC, so if something like the dismantal of Amtrak were to happen I don't think you would have to worry too much about the NEC going bye bye. I do think the faires might to ride the NEC might go up a bit, because of the "new" funding system.

AS far as David Gunn goes, I think the Board of Directors for Amtrak made an terrible mistake, Gunn held Amtrak together for the past three years. He was a leader with a true vision, and I believed that Gunn would of eventually, brought Amtrak back on it's feet. Well, we'll just have to see how good this new CEO does runing Amtrak.

[Modelcar]

...Chris and everyone else are entitled to their opinions....I believe that as some others do, that there is more support for the system or a good system than just rail fans.
I personally dislike the spin in some press releases of needing an energetic, forward thinking leader...{or similar words}, to run the railroad....We all know what energy Mr. Gunn put into the system trying to improve all angles of it with limited money each year, etc....It just seems like a shady approach the Board..{administration} took....

[narig01]

The Bush administration doesn’t want competence in government. It wants the U.S. to become a 3rd world country, like maybe Somalia?

[Anonymous]

Truth be told, It sounds more like bad board room politics to me. It is common practice among the politically well connected in any company to tra***he one that has been responsible for the success of a pilot, venture or even the successful years of a company's growth and profitability. David Gunn is a highly respected person and, from what I have heard, a person of high personal integrity. Replaceing him with a person of similar respect and ability will not be easy. [2c]

[Grinandbearit]

Amtraks loss will be someone elses gain unless he decides to retire again!

[overall]

I USED to be a supporter of George Bush. No more. This underhanded manuver to destroy Amtrak is a new low. He was fired because he was doing too well with Amtrak. The Bush administration did not want it to do well. I guess they will install a little prostitute that will simply do what hs/she is told. I will call my congress people in the morning and voice my disapproval. Bush has ignored the people's will on this and other issues too much. He deserves his low poll numbers.

George

[gfjwilmde]

Although i didn't like Mr. Gunn because of his stance he took with us(unionized labor), some of us fear there are going to be harder times ahead. At least he(Mr. Gunn) was someone with a railroading background. Not like these 'other' pinheads that couldn't tell a train from a plane if one ran them down. Mr. Laney is as worthless as they come(along with Mr. Mineta and the rest of the board of directors). Animal manure has more of a purpose than anyone of them. These idiots are a waste of dna and space.



GLENN
A R E A L RAILROADER!!!!!
A R E A L AMTRAKER!!!!!
A T R U E L Y A N G R Y AND E M B A R R A S S E D AMERICAN!!!!!!!!!!

[mshuster]

I suggest that all Trains readers (Trains editorial staff please take note) strongly urge their Senators and Congresional Representitives to hold hearings on this travesty and take a prominent public stand. This reaks of deliberately trying to derail Amtrak. We can not let this stand.

[coborn35]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gfjwilmde

Although i didn't like Mr. Gunn because of his stance he took with us(unionized labor), some of us fear there are going to be harder times ahead. At least he(Mr. Gunn) was someone with a railroading background. Not like these 'other' pinheads that couldn't tell a train from a plane if one ran them down. Mr. Laney is as worthless as they come(along with Mr. Mineta and the rest of the board of directors). Animal manure has more of a purpose than anyone of them. These idiots are a waste of dna and space.



GLENN
A R E A L RAILROADER!!!!!
A R E A L AMTRAKER!!!!!
A T R U E L Y A N G R Y AND E M B A R R A S S E D AMERICAN!!!!!!!!!!

Kind of like what is happening with the proposed rail line between Duluth and the Twin Cities. The people running it are IDIOTS!! Heck, I'm only 14, but I was burning people left and right at a meeting. "yea we are going to run 20 budd cars 70mph" I mean they are DUMB! They didnt even know what the SOO LINE was!

Sorry to detract from the subject.

[Modelcar]

Thanks for all the response on the subject at hand and may I say again....Write, call, fax and of course email your Rep's. and Senators if you care about this subject....At least we will be letting the "board members" know what we think about such decisions....The'll get the word if enough of us put it out.....

[swknox]

Just remember Mr. Bush is the puppettier controling all the strings.... I think the democrates are going to kick the republicans butt in a year in the next round of voting.

[miniwyo]

Alright, First of all, What does Bush have to do with this guy getting fired? From what I have read, it sounds like the Board incharge of Amtrak did it.

Second, Although it has been nice seeing Amtrak roll through here at 40 MPH, It would not bother me one bit if they went under. Of course I would like to ride it from here to somewhere else, but wait! They havent stopped here for probably about 10 years. No skin off my nose about this.

[swknox]

Also I agree that high fuel prices will force the issue for a first rate transportation system that includes trains. With the high gas prices and all of the Airlines going bankrupt we need trains more than ever... for the fine people who read my post let me say im sorry for downing the republicans in my last few post but come on people wake up, they along with George W. are turning this country into a 3rd world country. Bill Clinton did something wrong with an intern in the oval office which was wrong... an got impeached for it, Bush and his "Friends" have been in scandals, in leauge with the oil companies, gotten us in a war for all the wrong reasons - which cost us billions and billoions of dollars and most importantly 2000+ troops that have been lost. Mr. Gunn has been fired for all the right reasons, he knew how to run amtrak, ran it right, knew what to do with amtrak and thats what scared Bush's appointed amtrak board the most. Now Bush will get his way (again) and Amtrak will be dead in a few years. To think they called President Reagan the Teflon president - Mr. Reagan had nothing Compared to Geroge W. Bush.

[arbfbe]

The Bush administration has made no secret they want to dismantle, abandon, trash Amtrak. So they fire the guy who was making a serious effort to keep trains running and to meet the goals Congress has set for the agency. So now they need a new President of the railroad. Perhaps Brown the clown formerly the the disgraced director of FEMA can be called out to meet the challenge. He knows what total destruction looks like.

Miniwyo. Sure the AMTK board fired Mr. Gunn but who do you think appoints those directors to their jobs? Do you suppose Pres W has had a say in that?

[PNWRMNM]

Mr. Gunn was a rare bird in Washinton, someone who told the truth. I imagine that he went out with his head held high. I hope he enjoys the rest of his retirement.

Mac

[bbrant]

QUOTE: Originally posted by miniwyo

Alright, First of all, What does Bush have to do with this guy getting fired? From what I have read, it sounds like the Board incharge of Amtrak did it.

My opinion - it's more angry liberal democrats venting their own frustrations. To them, Bush always has been and always will be evil. Whether it's Amtrak or those darn evil companies that turn a profit, they like to point their fingers. Blaming Bush for Gunns firing is no exception.

Brian

[AntonioFP45]

Brain,

It could be, however you have to realize that President Bush himself wants to eliminate Amtrak's subsidies, so Bush will be blamed. That's a given.

[bbrant]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Brain,

It could be, however you have to realize that President Bush himself wants to eliminate Amtrak's subsidies, so Bush will be blamed. That's a given.

True. But from my take on some of the posts are that eliminating some, but not all, subsities and eliminating Amtrak are being considered the same thing. Bush is trying to make Amtrak stronger by getting them to generate revenue on their own rather than rely on Gov. funding. To me, that's not a bad thing.

That said, a lot of people think that no Gov. funding = no Amtrak and that's not the case. That's where a lot of people are thinking it's a case of Bush out to eliminate Amtrak and the finger pointing begins.

[eolafan]

Did they fire him while standing on a grassy knoll?

[jchnhtfd]

Please refer to the new thread I'm creating; I'd really like some sober feedback!

[Modelcar]

Brian....I know you and I have no agreement on this subject....and I want to keep it on the subject of the firing of Mr. Gunn and probably why and how was it done for what purpose.....We all have our opinions on the why's, etc....so no use to ha***hat back and forth...We get nowhere. Lots of facts out in front of us on this one.....President Bush..{not an angry Liberal}, simply wants to get rid of Amtrak as he has stated in so many ways...and by seeking to eliminate funding proves he meant what he implied...That didn't quite work as congress didn't completely go along with it....Mr. Gunn has been a dedicated to the task leader trying to do what he can with the system with what monies have been available and making it work for the most part and maybe just a bit better than the administration would like to see it working as that then makes it a bit more difficult to do away with it...hence he becomes a non team player in their eyes and it seems the board was convinced {in some way}, that this man had to go....so the agressive leader was canned...to get him out of there....
We'll watch to see just what kind of "agressive" leader is installed and then we'll get an updated idea just where all this is taking this rail passenger system....

[jeaton]

Looking over a few of the 100's of news articles that a Google search turned up on the subject, I found that the questioning of the Amtrak Board's decision is bi-partisan and only his biggest critics flat out accused him of being incapable of "moving forward".

Two interesting things have happened since the announcement. In a nonbinding vote, the House of Representatives instructed House Conferees to go with the $250 million higher Amtrak appropriation passed by the Senate. A house committee has scheduled a hearing on Gunn's dismissal for next Wednesday.

When Gunn was hired, Don Phillips wondered how Gunn might work out having to deal with an administration looking to cut domestic government expenditures. Phillips suggested that no matter the outcome, when his term came to an end Gunn would be forthright in telling the story.

I think that we be learning more about this story as the days pass.

Jay

[cnw4001]

Don't know why all the anguish, now the private interests can step in and get a chance at running a profitable business.

Oh, they have some beachfront land in Arizona they have to sell first to raise their startup capital.

Dale

[TomDiehl]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CopCarSS

At the risk of getting everybody in the forum upset with me...

If it's part of "The Plan" to fire Gunn and kill Amtrak, I say let it die. The coming energy crisis will force the issue when the time is right, and we'll see passenger trains on the tracks again. Perhaps at that time, it will be better received, and a man of Gunn's talents at the helm could truly bring the dream that we all have for passenger rail travel to fruition.

Stepping off the [soapbox] and putting on the asbestos suit!

Unfortunately, once the infrastructure is dismantled, and the agreements with the freight railroads is allowed to lapse, it may be very difficult, if not impossible, to reassemble Amtrak and it's agreements. Remember, the railroads only agreed to the useage by Amtrak in exchange for taking the passenger trains off their hands (and balance sheets). And such specialized shops facilities aren't just sitting around to subcontract the work, waiting for that day to come.

[TomDiehl]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bbrant

QUOTE: Originally posted by miniwyo

Alright, First of all, What does Bush have to do with this guy getting fired? From what I have read, it sounds like the Board incharge of Amtrak did it.

My opinion - it's more angry liberal democrats venting their own frustrations. To them, Bush always has been and always will be evil. Whether it's Amtrak or those darn evil companies that turn a profit, they like to point their fingers. Blaming Bush for Gunns firing is no exception.

Brian

Liberal Democrats:

From Funk And Wagnalls:

Lib-er-al (we know how to pronounce it) Free from narrowness, bigotry, or bondage to authority or creed, as in religion; inclined to democratic or republican ideas, as opposed to monarchical or aristocratic, as in politics; broad; popular; progressive

So you're saying that we're being led by "monarchial or aristocratic" leaders not "inclined to democratic or republican ideas."

Couldn't agree more.

Or you mean like those "darn evil companies that turn a profit" from no-bid contracts to rebuild Iraq? It was just a coincidence that the VP used to be on the BOD of that company.

[Modelcar]

...Oh so true....Once it stops, it {the system and what it takes to run it will be gone forever}....Then the opposition will be satisfied. And who knows where they will spend the money then....

[CopCarSS]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl
Unfortunately, once the infrastructure is dismantled, and the agreements with the freight railroads is allowed to lapse, it may be very difficult, if not impossible, to reassemble Amtrak and it's agreements. Remember, the railroads only agreed to the useage by Amtrak in exchange for taking the passenger trains off their hands (and balance sheets). And such specialized shops facilities aren't just sitting around to subcontract the work, waiting for that day to come.

Maybe, but at the same time there are markets where passenger travel is expanding. Look at Metra in Chicagoland. They're extending two lines that I know of, and talking about more.

Freeing the railroads of passenger responsibilities could have been accomplished just as easily by allowing the regulation of passenger trains to lapse. In which case, there would have been no Amtrak, and we would all be waxing philosophically about the halcyon days of rail travel, and great trains like the 20th Century Limited, the Super Chief, and the like.

I'm still of the opinion that a quick death is the best path for Amtrak in today's society. It may hurt in the long run, but we'll just have to wait and see what happens in the world in the future.

[Anonymous]

If you had trouble with my previous link to congressional email addresses then here are some more for you to try:


http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/


http://www.conservativeusa.org/mega-cong.htm

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

...Oh so true....Once it stops, it {the system and what it takes to run it will be gone forever}....Then the opposition will be satisfied.

And who knows where they will spend the money then....

Once Amtrak is gone there will be NO more national passenger rail service. The American people MUST band together now to keep any national passener rail service or we will have none.


If Amtrak is killed that will just be more money for Halliburton contracts. [:(!] No wonder the pres and vice are pushing for Amtrak to be killed.

[Modelcar]

....As suggested in above post of cutting off Amtrak for a quick death....Ok, but include the NEC with all the rest....We don't want to pay just for part of it....If all others must stop...then stop that busy section and see what problems that creates....It boggles my thoughts that so many are he** bent on eliminating our national passenger system...instead of trying to make a few improvements to make it work better but seem to be ok with supporting so many other efforts in the world {with our tax money}....for other people. Even refurbish railroads for others....

[CopCarSS]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jhhtrainsplanes
[Once Amtrak is gone there will be NO more national passenger rail service. The American people MUST band together now to keep any national passener rail service or we will have none.


If Amtrak is killed that will just be more money for Halliburton contracts. [:(!] No wonder the pres and vice are pushing for Amtrak to be killed.

Jim,

Your second paragraph is a dangerous way to look at the situation. There's a lot of stuff that the money could be applied to rather than Halliburton contracts. How about the clean-up in areas affected by the record setting hurricanes of this year? Katrina alone is going to cost billions and billions of dollars before its all said and done.

I fear too many comments like this could send this spiraling into yet another thread full of conservative ~vs~ liberal hate filled name calling. Thus far we've stayed pretty close to the topic, with only occasional references to the current administration. Those references were always related to the topic on hand, and not generalized contempt irrelevant to our current topic.

I like that you've posted the links to congress. I think far too many people neglect their opportunities to voice their concerns to those they've elected to represent them. Voicing one's concern to one's congressmen in a well worded letter does a lot more good than most people think. I think elected officials would tend to listen to the concerns of those who voice their concerns as they know those that take the time to write will be in the ballet box every opportunity they are afforded.

Perhaps one other outlet you might try to tap is the media. Outline the topic in a clear, concise letter to your local media, and see what happens. There might not be any repsonse, but if there is, think of the publicity that a single newspaper article could generate. It could potentially start a snowball effect.

This is of course all just my [2c] on the matter, though.

[TomDiehl]

And if you want a bit more of the facts and figures of the stupidity of this move:

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=Amtrak/am2Copy/News_Release_Page&c=am2Copy&cid=1093554022797&ssid=180

Since Amtrak would be so heavily audited, I think we can believe these figures. Ironically, this release was dated October 19, and the one "releasing" Gunn was dated November 11. I guess you shouldn't do too good a job.

[Anonymous]

I read somewhere that congress will be having a hearing next week regarding the firing, but I can't remember where I read it. Has anyone heard about this, and is Gunn going to be there?

[Modelcar]

Wow....what a shame. The firing of Mr. Gunn and comparing his performance to produce results such as listed in above post...must provide a bewildered and sad feeling for him.

[CG9602]

Here's one thing to think about for those who want to privatize or shut down rail service: How aboput privatizing every last inch of the Interstate Highway System, and having the new owners charge what the market will bear? We expect Amtrak to turn a profit, how about expecting the same of the Interstates? Oh, and while you're at it, privatize all metropolitan airports, and the entire U.S. air traffic control system. If you can't afford to by stock ownership in a particular airport, have a rule that your airline can't serve that city. How many airlines would stay in business if they had to build airports completely from the ground up?

I say, if we are going to privatize intercity and interstate rail service, let's privatize the Interstate Highways, make them all toll roads, as well as my suggestions regarding airports.

/sarcasm/ Oh wait - that might force us all to recognise our contradictions! Heaven forbid, we can't have that! /sarcasm/

[Modelcar]

...Info of hearing was in newpaper today...{I believe it's next Wednesday}.

[Anonymous]

Just found a little more information on that hearing using Google news search. Apparently Rep. Oberstar of Minnesota is seeking a hearing next week in which Gunn would testify. Sen. Schumer of New York and other democrats say the removal may have been illegal. I doubt there is much chance that Gunn could be reinstated, or is there?

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by swknox

Just remember Mr. Bush is the puppettier controling all the strings.... I think the democrates are going to kick the republicans butt in a year in the next round of voting.

Cheney is the 'silent' puppettier....Bu***he puppet and mouthpiece. They are both dragging this country down, down, down the slippery slope to polarization and decline.

[CopCarSS]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CG9602

Here's one thing to think about for those who want to privatize or shut down rail service: How aboput privatizing every last inch of the Interstate Highway System, and having the new owners charge what the market will bear? We expect Amtrak to turn a profit, how about expecting the same of the Interstates? Oh, and while you're at it, privatize all metropolitan airports, and the entire U.S. air traffic control system. If you can't afford to by stock ownership in a particular airport, have a rule that your airline can't serve that city. How many airlines would stay in business if they had to build airports completely from the ground up?

I say, if we are going to privatize intercity and interstate rail service, let's privatize the Interstate Highways, make them all toll roads, as well as my suggestions regarding airports.

/sarcasm/ Oh wait - that might force us all to recognise our contradictions! Heaven forbid, we can't have that! /sarcasm/

It's kind of interesting that when railroads were just catching on in this country that most major long distance roads were privately owned toll roads, and that airline travel didn't exist. Railroads and Water Travel (especially canals) were heavily subsidied by both the Federal and State governments, as they were the main ways to travel at that time. Kind of like autos and airplanes today. Majority rules. Sorry.

[jeaton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jarubel

Just found a little more information on that hearing using Google news search. Apparently Rep. Oberstar of Minnesota is seeking a hearing next week in which Gunn would testify. Sen. Schumer of New York and other democrats say the removal may have been illegal. I doubt there is much chance that Gunn could be reinstated, or is there?

My personal view? Dave Gunn wouldn't come back on the job even if we built a high speed passenger railroad from the back 40 of his Nova Scotia farm all the way to the Amtrak offices in Washington Union Station.

[Modelcar]

...I have no idea if Mr. Gunn would be present to testiy but if he would I'd believe it sure would be interesting....

[Anonymous]

Looks like that hearing will be on Tuesday.

November 15
Subcommittee on Railroads
Hearing on
Current Governance Issues at Amtrak
10:00 a.m.
2325 Rayburn House Office Building

http://www.house.gov/transportation/rail/schedule.html

[Anonymous]

The board members that voted to Fire Mr. Gunn have all been appointed by Bush. Draw your own conclusions.

[CopCarSS]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dave e

The board members that voted to Fire Mr. Gunn have all been appointed by Bush. Draw your own conclusions.

OK. Andrew Johnson was Abraham Lincoln's Vice-President. Draw your own conclusions.

Chris
Denver, CO

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CopCarSS

QUOTE: Originally posted by dave e

The board members that voted to Fire Mr. Gunn have all been appointed by Bush. Draw your own conclusions.

OK. Andrew Johnson was Abraham Lincoln's Vice-President. Draw your own conclusions.

Chris
Denver, CO

Ok, I conclude that....uhmmm....George Bush is even a worse President than Andrew Johnson was? (Johnson is widely regarded as one of our worst Presidents.)[:)][:)]

[espeefoamer]

Fire Mineta, and all other Amtrak board members who voted to fire Gunn[:(!].

[CopCarSS]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jarubel
Ok, I conclude that....uhmmm....George Bush is even a worse President than Andrew Johnson was? (Johnson is widely regarded as one of our worst Presidents.)

Exactly my point. And though he wasn't always at the time (and still isn't in the south), Abraham Lincoln is considered one of the best. To just throw some wild association out into webdom, and let anyone make assumptions without really looking into anything is fodder for emotionally spirited but uniformed opinion.

Had you not known anything about Andrew Johnson other than what I said, what would your thoughts have been? Well, if he's associated with Honest Abe, he must've been OK. Hardly. The botch job of carpet bagging reconstruction in the South would make this Amtrak discussion seem downright silly.

I just don't like posts that don't add anything to the discussion but politically based hatred.

[CG9602]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CopCarSS

QUOTE: Originally posted by CG9602

Here's one thing to think about for those who want to privatize or shut down rail service: How aboput privatizing every last inch of the Interstate Highway System, and having the new owners charge what the market will bear? We expect Amtrak to turn a profit, how about expecting the same of the Interstates? Oh, and while you're at it, privatize all metropolitan airports, and the entire U.S. air traffic control system. If you can't afford to by stock ownership in a particular airport, have a rule that your airline can't serve that city. How many airlines would stay in business if they had to build airports completely from the ground up?

I say, if we are going to privatize intercity and interstate rail service, let's privatize the Interstate Highways, make them all toll roads, as well as my suggestions regarding airports.

/sarcasm/ Oh wait - that might force us all to recognise our contradictions! Heaven forbid, we can't have that! /sarcasm/

It's kind of interesting that when railroads were just catching on in this country that most major long distance roads were privately owned toll roads, and that airline travel didn't exist. Railroads and Water Travel (especially canals) were heavily subsidied by both the Federal and State governments, as they were the main ways to travel at that time. Kind of like autos and airplanes today. Majority rules. Sorry.

You missed my point completely. If we expect profitability from one form of transport, we should expect profitability from all of them. When was the last time the Interstate Highway System showed a profit? When was the last time O'Hare showed a profit? When was the last time the Army Corps of Engineers showed a profit? If not, then why are these not expected to show profits while Amtrak is? The taxpayer subsidizes them all. If the "profitability" test should be required for one of the forms of transport, then let's apply it to all of them. Where were the investors during the 1950s up to the present day regarding private limited access expressways? If it isn't required for one - regardless of if it is used by the vast majority of people - then it shouldn't be required for any of them.

[Modelcar]

....It sure can be and is a politically charged subject....That is, Amtrak...and now we have the very active, aggressive, hard working president and CEO who was fired. Many of us think it was a political move to get him out of the system so they {the Board} could move towards disassembling our national rail passenger system. And since many of us think it is simply carrying out Pres. Bush's wishes of stopping the service of Amtrak. Of course it's going to create a heated debate on this foum....It's a charged subject. Just hope we can be civil about it.......Emotions are high on both sides.

[jeaton]

An interesting side note. I just scanned over the 165 page report of the GAO on Amtrak's procedures and controls. Interestingly this report was made at the request of Representative Don Young (R) Alaska. It was delivered to him on October 4, 2005 over the signature of JayEtta Z. Hecker who chaired the GAO audit team. The transmittal letter said that the report would not be distributed to anyone else for 30 days.

There is no doubt that many of Amtrak's procedures have serious shortcomings, but in every area investigated, the report acknowledged that Dave Gunn has made improvements. As Gunn noted in his comments on the draft report, the focus of the report is on the process and not on the performance. There is no specific allegation or documentation that any money was lost or wasted by Amtrak.

Sound business procedures and controls are extremely important and I agree that this is expecially true when tax dollars are involved. However the development and installation of these things are not cheap, and when an organization is scraping together every dollar just to keep the machinery running, it is not easy to throw out millions for a crash program to get all the control and procedure bells and gongs in place.

Gunn noted that this was the fifth GAO audit undertaken since he was apointed president of Amtrak and the sixth was about to be started. Given that the audit team consisted of about a dozen people from the GAO, and extensive interviews were conducted with Amtrak senior management, it would probably have been more productive to give the money spent on the audit as a grant to Amtrak.

Interestingly, Sec. Mineta jumped on the report to use for his latest blast against Amtrak. The ironic thing is that the largest blame for the shortcomings was laid on the Board of Directors, of which Mineta is one. The board has met monthly as required, but Mineta has always sent one of the DOT lawyers in his place. The audit report notes that none of the Directors' committees have met for at least two years and the important legal responsibility of the Board to oversee the company has been virtually ignored.

According to one report, Gunn was asked to resign but refused. Since he was fired, maybe Amtrak will have to buy out his contract. Actually, Warrington got bonus pay for his last year so maybe fair is fair.

Jay

[CopCarSS]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CG9602
You missed my point completely. If we expect profitability from one form of transport, we should expect profitability from all of them. When was the last time the Interstate Highway System showed a profit? When was the last time O'Hare showed a profit? When was the last time the Army Corps of Engineers showed a profit? If not, then why are these not expected to show profits while Amtrak is? The taxpayer subsidizes them all. If the "profitability" test should be required for one of the forms of transport, then let's apply it to all of them. Where were the investors during the 1950s up to the present day regarding private limited access expressways? If it isn't required for one - regardless of if it is used by the vast majority of people - then it shouldn't be required for any of them.

So should I, and a small minorty of other folks decide to start using horses, should I be subsidised? Should I write my congressmen and tell them that if no other form of transport should be required to turn a profit, then I plan on getting a horse, and expect an equine reimbursement from the government?

Chris
Denver, CO

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CopCarSS

QUOTE: Originally posted by CG9602

Here's one thing to think about for those who want to privatize or shut down rail service: How aboput privatizing every last inch of the Interstate Highway System, and having the new owners charge what the market will bear? We expect Amtrak to turn a profit, how about expecting the same of the Interstates? Oh, and while you're at it, privatize all metropolitan airports, and the entire U.S. air traffic control system. If you can't afford to by stock ownership in a particular airport, have a rule that your airline can't serve that city. How many airlines would stay in business if they had to build airports completely from the ground up?

I say, if we are going to privatize intercity and interstate rail service, let's privatize the Interstate Highways, make them all toll roads, as well as my suggestions regarding airports.

/sarcasm/ Oh wait - that might force us all to recognise our contradictions! Heaven forbid, we can't have that! /sarcasm/

It's kind of interesting that when railroads were just catching on in this country that most major long distance roads were privately owned toll roads, and that airline travel didn't exist. Railroads and Water Travel (especially canals) were heavily subsidied by both the Federal and State governments, as they were the main ways to travel at that time. Kind of like autos and airplanes today. Majority rules. Sorry.

Then airlines would be the odd man out in the NEC.

The VAST majority of RRs built in the 19th century weren't subsidized at all. And, of those that were, the subsidy was almost entirely indirect - no direct construction funding. Gov't involvement was usually limited to granting a charter to allow construction.

The issue isn't, and shouldn't be, one of perceived fairness, but one of common good and most efficient service provider.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CG9602

Here's one thing to think about for those who want to privatize or shut down rail service: How aboput privatizing every last inch of the Interstate Highway System, and having the new owners charge what the market will bear? We expect Amtrak to turn a profit, how about expecting the same of the Interstates? Oh, and while you're at it, privatize all metropolitan airports, and the entire U.S. air traffic control system. If you can't afford to by stock ownership in a particular airport, have a rule that your airline can't serve that city. How many airlines would stay in business if they had to build airports completely from the ground up?

I say, if we are going to privatize intercity and interstate rail service, let's privatize the Interstate Highways, make them all toll roads, as well as my suggestions regarding airports.

/sarcasm/ Oh wait - that might force us all to recognise our contradictions! Heaven forbid, we can't have that! /sarcasm/

What makes you think there aren't plans to do just that? Private highways have been proposed in Texas and tollways exist in many other states. Even the non-combat units of the military are being outsourced to private contractors. Maybe the Feds have a plan to sell the Mississippi River to BNSF.[:D][:D][:D]

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CopCarSS

QUOTE: Originally posted by CG9602
You missed my point completely. If we expect profitability from one form of transport, we should expect profitability from all of them. When was the last time the Interstate Highway System showed a profit? When was the last time O'Hare showed a profit? When was the last time the Army Corps of Engineers showed a profit? If not, then why are these not expected to show profits while Amtrak is? The taxpayer subsidizes them all. If the "profitability" test should be required for one of the forms of transport, then let's apply it to all of them. Where were the investors during the 1950s up to the present day regarding private limited access expressways? If it isn't required for one - regardless of if it is used by the vast majority of people - then it shouldn't be required for any of them.

So should I, and a small minorty of other folks decide to start using horses, should I be subsidised? Should I write my congressmen and tell them that if no other form of transport should be required to turn a profit, then I plan on getting a horse, and expect an equine reimbursement from the government?

Chris
Denver, CO

Only if you can convince Congress it's for the common good. Providing for the common good is a constitutional mandate.

[CopCarSS]

QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd
Only if you can convince Congress it's for the common good. Providing for the common good is a constitutional mandate.

That's kind of my point. Is Amtrak really serving the common good? If the vast majority of intercity travelers never even consider Amtrak as a travel option, let alone actually riding it, is it worthy of taxpayer dollars? If yes, then we need to fund it the way it should be. If no, then let it die.

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by up829

QUOTE: Originally posted by CG9602

Here's one thing to think about for those who want to privatize or shut down rail service: How aboput privatizing every last inch of the Interstate Highway System, and having the new owners charge what the market will bear? We expect Amtrak to turn a profit, how about expecting the same of the Interstates? Oh, and while you're at it, privatize all metropolitan airports, and the entire U.S. air traffic control system. If you can't afford to by stock ownership in a particular airport, have a rule that your airline can't serve that city. How many airlines would stay in business if they had to build airports completely from the ground up?

I say, if we are going to privatize intercity and interstate rail service, let's privatize the Interstate Highways, make them all toll roads, as well as my suggestions regarding airports.

/sarcasm/ Oh wait - that might force us all to recognise our contradictions! Heaven forbid, we can't have that! /sarcasm/

What makes you think there aren't plans to do just that? Private highways have been proposed in Texas and tollways exist in many other states. Even the non-combat units of the military are being outsourced to private contractors. Maybe the Feds have a plan to sell the Mississippi River to BNSF.[:D][:D][:D]

There have been a few toll roads proposed here in GA where the entire cost of construction would be funded from tolls (police, fire, rescue, maint, etc, NOT funded from tolls, however).

In EVERY case, the tolls was so outrageously high, (like $5 for a 30 mile suburban/rural trip) that the projects became a joke!

What's next? An airline building it's own airport?

[edbenton]

Actually since Amtrak is technically a corparation it requires a quarom to fire the CEO by the board of directors. Since the board is 7 members and only 3 people are on the board actually they did not have a majority of the board present.

[mnwestern]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jhhtrainsplanes

F Y I

Do you remember the article in Trains a while back about Mineta wanting to end Amtrak? In his speeches he gave false information about Amtrak. Mr. Mineta KNOWS the truth. He sits on the Amtrak Board. YES, he is a board member.

I thought board members were suspose to do what is right for the company or organization they oversee. It appears that even though Mineta knows the truth he continues to spread untruth.

Dear Sir:
Unfortunately, reports are that Mineta, soon to be one of just two people (Laney) the other, left on the board, has apparently never attended an Amtrak board meeting in his 52 months on the board. Now, that is having your finger on the pulse of an agency you are supposedly overseeing!

Mineta and the whole Amtrak board should be unseated, immediately. A new board should be appointed but not by the president.

Mr. Gunn should be rehired, IMMEDIATELY.

I have never distrusted an administration more than the current one. This firing is nothing BUT politics.

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CG9602

Here's one thing to think about for those who want to privatize or shut down rail service: How aboput privatizing every last inch of the Interstate Highway System, and having the new owners charge what the market will bear? We expect Amtrak to turn a profit, how about expecting the same of the Interstates? Oh, and while you're at it, privatize all metropolitan airports, and the entire U.S. air traffic control system. If you can't afford to by stock ownership in a particular airport, have a rule that your airline can't serve that city. How many airlines would stay in business if they had to build airports completely from the ground up?

I say, if we are going to privatize intercity and interstate rail service, let's privatize the Interstate Highways, make them all toll roads, as well as my suggestions regarding airports.

/sarcasm/ Oh wait - that might force us all to recognise our contradictions! Heaven forbid, we can't have that! /sarcasm/

My sentiments exactly.

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CopCarSS

QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd
Only if you can convince Congress it's for the common good. Providing for the common good is a constitutional mandate.

That's kind of my point. Is Amtrak really serving the common good? If the vast majority of intercity travelers never even consider Amtrak as a travel option, let alone actually riding it, is it worthy of taxpayer dollars? If yes, then we need to fund it the way it should be. If no, then let it die.

Now we're to the point of debate!

I think the issue isn't whether a majority of Americans consider using it, it's whether a majority of Americans want it around. The majority of Americans don't use Medicaid, but the majority think it should exist - even though it is a huge cost.

Every poll I've ever seen says the answer is "yes" - the gov't should keep funding or expand funding for Amtrak.

"Being worthy or taxpayer dollars " is a value judgement.

Does it really matter if we want it as kinetic art or useful transportation?

[Anonymous]

AS FAR AS THE AMTRAK BOARD AND THE BU***EAM GO " SEND IN THE CLOWNS ,DONT BOTHER THRIR HERE"

[CopCarSS]

QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd
Now we're to the point of debate!

I think the issue isn't whether a majority of Americans consider using it, it's whether a majority of Americans want it around. The majority of Americans don't use Medicaid, but the majority think it should exist - even though it is a huge cost.

Every poll I've ever seen says the answer is "yes" - the gov't should keep funding or expand funding for Amtrak.

"Being worthy or taxpayer dollars " is a value judgement.

Does it really matter if we want it as kinetic art or useful transportation?

Well, if it's "Kinetic Art" then it can stay...though it was a little more artful with F40's instead of the new GE's! [:p]

I guess if the majority of Americans think it should exist, it would be hard to argue the point. I'm still a fan of voting by riding, rather than just paying lip service, but if America says it should exist, and doesn't mind footing the bill, then its pretty clear that Amtrak has a reason to be. Have there been polls done to prove that the majority does think it should exist? I'd be interested in seeing those numbers.

In the end, I'm still against it unless we can commit the kind of monies needed to make it what it should be instead of allowing it to limp on year after painful year. I'll also continue to ride Amtrak as long as possible so that I may vote by ridership.

[CopCarSS]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TRAINMANTOM

AS FAR AS THE AMTRAK BOARD AND THE BU***EAM GO " SEND IN THE CLOWNS ,DONT BOTHER THRIR HERE"

Please don't shout Sondheim. It's a soft song. If you must shout a Sondheim piece (and even then only in certain places), may I suggest "Comedy Tonight?" Getting the spelling correct on "they're" would probably be beneficial, too...

Chris
Denver, CO

[Anonymous]

Nova Scotia will welcome him back, (retirement again). Maybe CN will hire him and get some trains running in Eastern Canada again. I miss trains.

[Anonymous]

AS FAR AS THE AMTRAK BOARD AND THE BU***EAM GO " SEND IN THE CLOWNS ,DONT BOTHER THEY ARE HERE"

[oltmannd]

Admittedly 3 years old, but here are some poll results:

http://www.aprc.org/gov_support.htm

Doubt much has changed since 2002...

[Junctionfan]

The firing of Gunn is just the a simple political exercise of stupidity. Thease guys don't care about what they do, they simply want to be re-elected or become something higher. What's my point?-thease guys are s&*t-heads because anybody else would normally take pride in their work or move on. Why would Amtrak board of directors try to ruin Amtrak when that means they would be out of a job-something stinks here.

Are thease guys awesome or what? "Let's spend alot of our time pretending we give a crap about Amtrak and then try to shut it down"........this is the impression they are giving me.

You can understand why people have little patience with politics because really, it doesn't work. Mean time, Mineta- the Secretary of Worthless Transportation, continues to pretend he is worth his weight in gold. More like the worth of dirt if you ask me.

[Modelcar]

...I don't mind my tax dollars going to Amtrak....even though I don't get to ride it that much....Better still, I'd like to see it improved and I don't mind paying for that either if it's being done by someone we have trust and confidence with...Such as Mr. Gunn...There are plenty of happenings in this country that are tax supported that an individual may not be directly getting the benefits from.

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

The firing of Gunn is just the a simple political exercise of stupidity. Thease guys don't care about what they do, they simply want to be re-elected or become something higher. What's my point?-thease guys are s&*t-heads because anybody else would normally take pride in their work or move on. Why would Amtrak board of directors try to ruin Amtrak when that means they would be out of a job-something stinks here.

Are thease guys awesome or what? "Let's spend alot of our time pretending we give a crap about Amtrak and then try to shut it down"........this is the impression they are giving me.

You can understand why people have little patience with politics because really, it doesn't work. Mean time, Mineta- the Secretary of Worthless Transportation, continues to pretend he is worth his weight in gold. More like the worth of dirt if you ask me.

Politics....Politics...Politics

Watching the political process is a lot like watching sausage being made....IT IS NOT SOMETHING YOU WANT TO WATCH. Would that something good comes out of this blatanly political firing, however, Sausage that is made by amatuers that don't care about the product and in fact want to get out of the business of even making sausage is generally not fit for human consumption.

[Junctionfan]

Well said

Another thing that irritates me about politicians is their rhetoric and lack of intelligent decision making processes that are need to run things. Most of thease politicians falls into at least the whimp or moron category. No wonder why nothing works right-they are the reason. Perhaps thease folk should submit a resume with references to see if they are trully up to job because for so far in both of our countries, I am not particularly impressed with the majority of politicians.

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

Well said

Another thing that irritates me about politicians is their rhetoric and lack of intelligent decision making processes that are need to run things. Most of thease politicians falls into at least the whimp or moron category. No wonder why nothing works right-they are the reason. Perhaps thease folk should submit a resume with references to see if they are trully up to job because for so far in both of our countries, I am not particularly impressed with the majority of politicians.

I has been my observation, in the US at least, the government is most fair and effective when the President and Congress are controlled by the different political parties. When both are in the hands of the same party (and I don't care if it is Republican or Democrat) that party and it minions feel they can do anything they want. When the President and Congress are controlled by different interests, then they must work together and compromise their entrenched positions to accomplish anything. With the US government now being in the control of the Republicans they are fulfilling the saying, 'Absolute Power corrupts...absolutely!'

[Modelcar]

...Divided government seems to have the checks and balances we really need to keep it from running amuck...with our money and making good decisions.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

...I don't mind my tax dollars going to Amtrak....even though I don't get to ride it that much....Better still, I'd like to see it improved and I don't mind paying for that either if it's being done by someone we have trust and confidence with...Such as Mr. Gunn...There are plenty of happenings in this country that are tax supported that an individual may not be directly getting the benefits from.

I have ridden Amtrak and look forward to the time when I can again. I have never ridden any train in the Northwest Corridor, yet my tax dollars go to fund those trains. If Amtrak is shut down ALL of Amtrak should be shut down. This cut it up and piece it out is nonsense.

If this country can fund trains in Iraq, why can't we fund them here?

If you have not emailed your congress people please do so. There are several links on (about) page 3 to help you.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jhhtrainsplanes

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

...I don't mind my tax dollars going to Amtrak....even though I don't get to ride it that much....Better still, I'd like to see it improved and I don't mind paying for that either if it's being done by someone we have trust and confidence with...Such as Mr. Gunn...There are plenty of happenings in this country that are tax supported that an individual may not be directly getting the benefits from.

I have ridden Amtrak and look forward to the time when I can again. I have never ridden any train in the Northwest Corridor, yet my tax dollars go to fund those trains. If Amtrak is shut down ALL of Amtrak should be shut down. This cut it up and piece it out is nonsense.

If this country can fund trains in Iraq, why can't we fund them here?

If you have not emailed your congress people please do so. There are several links on (about) page 3 to help you.

Please do not let the current administration piece out Amtrak. Please do not let the firing of Mr. Gunn go unnoticed in congress.

IF you have not emailed, called, or written your congress people DO IT NOW. Folks it is now or never for Amtrak. Don't let Amtrak die at the hand of this current administration.

[Anonymous]

As a UTU member based by what Gunn has said on record this yr concerning Amtrak labor, I have to say his ousting is a step in the correct direction. In a May hearing on Capitol Hill, Gunn clearly stated that he wanted to change all labor contracts, cut wages, slash benefits, cut asst condr off trains, expand runs w/only one engr in the cab, slash rr retirement for new hires, out source work currently done by Amtrk paid workers, open routes to scab non union operators and cancel the Federal Employee Liability Act and working conditions free from the Railway Labor Act. UTU has gone on record stating Gunn is the worse head of Amtrk they have ever dealt with. Gunn is the first to directly attact its dedicated work force. I want to see Amtrk suceed but changes are going to have to be made in how things are done. Messing w/a skilled and dedicated work force is not one of them. Now if we can get Mineta unemployed and out on the street, then that would be a five star slam dunk.

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CopCarSS

QUOTE: Originally posted by TRAINMANTOM

AS FAR AS THE AMTRAK BOARD AND THE BU***EAM GO " SEND IN THE CLOWNS ,DONT BOTHER THEIR HERE"

Please don't shout Sondheim. It's a soft song.

Chris
Denver, CO

You've never heard the Dickie's doing the Punk Rock version have you?[:p]

[:o)][:o)][:o)][:o)][:o)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by sammythebull

As a UTU member based by what Gunn has said on record this yr concerning Amtrak labor, I have to say his ousting is a step in the correct direction. In a May hearing on Capitol Hill, Gunn clearly stated that he wanted to change all labor contracts, cut wages, slash benefits, cut asst condr off trains, expand runs w/only one engr in the cab, slash rr retirement for new hires, out source work currently done by Amtrk paid workers, open routes to scab non union operators and cancel the Federal Employee Liability Act and working conditions free from the Railway Labor Act. UTU has gone on record stating Gunn is the worse head of Amtrk they have ever dealt with. Gunn is the first to directly attact its dedicated work force. I want to see Amtrk suceed but changes are going to have to be made in how things are done. Messing w/a skilled and dedicated work force is not one of them. Now if we can get Mineta unemployed and out on the street, then that would be a five star slam dunk.

Sammy -

I can understand your not supporting some of the cuts Gunn proposed in labor wages, positions and benefits. I agree with you on most of those points. On one point we differ a bit. Gunn wanted to keep Amtrak together an a network, not parcel it out to private (scab) operators. That is a BIG part of why he is gone. Sadly, unless Mineta and Bush can be stopped that is exactly what will happen and that great workforce, well, perhaps a few will hang on, but that's all...

I'm not so sure getting rid of Gunn is worth a trip from his frying pan to the fire, that's all I'm saying...

LC

[Anonymous]

It sure would be nice to read a topic entitled, "Gunn Rehired, Mineta Fired, Current Amtrak Board Dismissed."

THEN we could really get down and start reshaping Amtrak into what it needs to be. Of course we have to wait till the current administration is gone. They are standing in the way of progress and having true national rail passenger service.

Our current system is better than nothing BUT, we need more service than currently offered. We need at least one more east-west train running through the middle part of the country. Currently to go east or west I must go to Chicago or San Antonio then change to a train running east-west. However, both Dems and Reps have neglected to fund Amtrak at a level where they could operate. Now maybe that is changing. However, we must keep Amtrak together and not let this administration trash it. I have ridden Amtrak and hope to do so in the future. I would much rather see my tax dollars fund Amtrak than trains in Iraq (sorry Mark).

I know this topic is nothing but politics from the gitgo but please try and keep name calling and personal attacks out so we can discuss the revelant topic.

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by sammythebull

As a UTU member based by what Gunn has said on record this yr concerning Amtrak labor, I have to say his ousting is a step in the correct direction. In a May hearing on Capitol Hill, Gunn clearly stated that he wanted to change all labor contracts, cut wages, slash benefits, cut asst condr off trains, expand runs w/only one engr in the cab, slash rr retirement for new hires, out source work currently done by Amtrk paid workers, open routes to scab non union operators and cancel the Federal Employee Liability Act and working conditions free from the Railway Labor Act. UTU has gone on record stating Gunn is the worse head of Amtrk they have ever dealt with. Gunn is the first to directly attact its dedicated work force. I want to see Amtrk suceed but changes are going to have to be made in how things are done. Messing w/a skilled and dedicated work force is not one of them. Now if we can get Mineta unemployed and out on the street, then that would be a five star slam dunk.

You really think the guy they pick to replace Gunn will be more "union friendly"?

Where you been the last 5 years?

All that Gunn proposed will come to pass, only many times worse.

With Gunn, at least you likely would keep your contract and get to negotiate. If things go the Amtrak board's way, Amtrak will be forced into bankruptcy, the courts will kill your contract and impose what ever the Amtrak board desires, you won't be able to strike over it - and there likely will be far, far fewer Amtrak trains and jobs than if Gunn was still around.

You still think firing Gunn was "a step in the right direction"?

Whew!

[Simon Reed]

From a European - but very Amtrak aware - perspective...I can't believe you did'nt see this coming.

Now I've got to save up for lots of "Last train to ..." transatlantic trips, so I suppose I'll be helping US transportation policy in the way your democratically elected representatives would approve of, by using the airlines to get to places like Oklahoma City, and Portland ME, and Grand Rapids....

The list goes on and on.....

[Modelcar]

....What was so obvious that we should have seen it coming.....? Do you mean of Mr. Gunn standing in the "way"......

[BaltACD]

Remember...AMTRAK was designed by Congress to FAIL.

Bush/Minetta believe they have a mandate to implement the 1970 Congress' wishes

Gunn was preventing that failure.

[Anonymous]

The Amtrak Board gets rid of an experinced Railroader, do they know something we don't. Is the passenger Train doomed in America?

I will keep watching from across the pond in England, look what happened to us!

[Modelcar]

....It is doomed if the leadership we have now is not stopped. Trouble is, where do we {they}, find a {railroad leader}, to carry it forward with improvements....On the other hand I suppose a railroad leader is not what they seem to want......

[Anonymous]

I am bringing this thread back. It has a good mix of pros and cons.

It also had the addys for contacting congress.

The thread I just stated about Phillips and Wrinn's comments on Gunn and this thread should compliment each other.