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turbine territory

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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, November 26, 2005 10:24 PM
I bet these were some of the most awesome machines ever to just listen to!!
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Posted by nanaimo73 on Monday, November 14, 2005 9:05 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by C40-2

Where is the final resting place of any of the UP turbines? Have any been preserved or restored? Unfortunatly I was not even thought of when they roamed the tracks.I've read an article in a TRAINS mag. from I beleive the 70's about them. The problem is I cannot find the article now. I Guess I'll have to travel over to Pentrex site for the video..................



Is it here-
http://index.mrmag.com/tm.exe?opt=S&cmdtext=turbine&MAG=TRN&output=3&sort=A
Dale
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, November 14, 2005 8:37 PM
Where is the final resting place of any of the UP turbines? Have any been preserved or restored? Unfortunatly I was not even thought of when they roamed the tracks.I've read an article in a TRAINS mag. from I beleive the 70's about them. The problem is I cannot find the article now. I Guess I'll have to travel over to Pentrex site for the video..................
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, November 12, 2005 4:02 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by dave e

They could be started a few minutes after complete shutdown. I did it several time to check governor settinjgs on startup.


you operated these engines?
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, November 12, 2005 1:31 PM
They could be started a few minutes after complete shutdown. I did it several time to check governor settinjgs on startup.
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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, November 11, 2005 8:16 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer

The Big Blow turbines were used for a very short time in the early 60s into Los Angeles.There were many complaints about the noise in urban areas,so they always ran with diesels,with the turbine shut down west of Pomona.I got to see them a couple of times [:)] .


how fast could you turn it on after shutting it down? Is it faster than with diesels?
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Posted by espeefoamer on Thursday, November 10, 2005 5:49 PM
The Big Blow turbines were used for a very short time in the early 60s into Los Angeles.There were many complaints about the noise in urban areas,so they always ran with diesels,with the turbine shut down west of Pomona.I got to see them a couple of times [:)] .
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Posted by edbenton on Wednesday, November 9, 2005 3:37 PM
The turbines were used mostly between green river and cheyane to pull trains over Sherman hill. They needed to be run at max speed to get the most out of them. Think of them as a large turbocharger. They are most efficent when they are given a steady load that way they run at the same speed.
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Posted by adrianspeeder on Wednesday, November 9, 2005 2:07 PM
Shoot, only 1200 degrees? I can make that with my powerstroker. Course not the volume of what a turbine would put out.

Adrianspeeder

USAF TSgt C-17 Aircraft Maintenance Flying Crew Chief & Flightline Avionics Craftsman

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Posted by chad thomas on Wednesday, November 9, 2005 11:28 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by RPRiebe
[

Chad:
A piston engine turbine, is what is called a turbo. It is a turbine style supercharger driven by the engines exhaust, verses a basically similar, in compression funtion, unit driven mechanically off of the engine.
Bob


Oh, I've never heard a turbo called a turbine. When I think of turbines I think disk turbine. When I think turbo, I think impeller / propeller.
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Posted by Tulyar15 on Wednesday, November 9, 2005 11:22 AM
An amusing story I heard about the GWR Gas Turbine loco #18000 (the first of two Gas Turbine loco's ordered by the Great Western in 1947 just before nationalisation) was that on one occassion it was being demonstrated to a party of journalists at Paddington station. So that the guy doing the talking could be heard, they shut its engine down. When they started it up again, the force of the blast dislodged a lot of soot from the roof, showering the journalists!
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, November 9, 2005 10:10 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by rdganthracite

QUOTE: Originally posted by RPRiebe
[brDave:
Turbines are not driven by heat, turbines are driven by the force of the exhaust.
The trick of designing any (including auto units) turbine driven by combustion exhaust, is to design a system that can deal with the heat, which is in four figures, even in a piston engine turbine.
Efficient combustion produces two things, among others, greater output and greater heat; i.e. the reason the hottest part of any fire, is where the most efficient (complete) combustion is taking place.


Oh but they are driven by the heat. You had better brush up on your thermodynamics. The real trick to efficient engines, be they reciprocating steam. turbine steam, otto cycle, diesel cycle, sterling cycle, or gas turbine, is to maximize the use of the heat generated. During the expansion of the gas in the power stroke, or through the turbine, the energy to pust the pistons or the blades comes from the heat of the gas. The temperature of the gas in the exhaust of a turbine is much cooler than the same gas at the inlet of the power blades.


Yes if you want to use language better suited for a technical thesis, but this is not a tech journal.
The exhaust from the small turbine in the Chrysler turbine car was 1,200 degree f until the regenerator reduced it to 500 degrees f.

I am sure the turbines in the locomotives exhaust was hotter than the car and if it was parked under a overpass, as the story told to me, says it was, even at 500 degrees, it will seriously damage the pavement.

Worries about the heat given off by the exhaust in the Chrysler turbine car, is one of the many reasons it was cancelled.

Chad:
A piston engine turbine, is what is called a turbo. It is a turbine style supercharger driven by the engines exhaust, verses a basically similar, in compression funtion, unit driven mechanically off of the engine.
Bob
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, November 9, 2005 6:23 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by RPRiebe
[brDave:
Turbines are not driven by heat, turbines are driven by the force of the exhaust.
The trick of designing any (including auto units) turbine driven by combustion exhaust, is to design a system that can deal with the heat, which is in four figures, even in a piston engine turbine.
Efficient combustion produces two things, among others, greater output and greater heat; i.e. the reason the hottest part of any fire, is where the most efficient (complete) combustion is taking place.


Oh but they are driven by the heat. You had better brush up on your thermodynamics. The real trick to efficient engines, be they reciprocating steam. turbine steam, otto cycle, diesel cycle, sterling cycle, or gas turbine, is to maximize the use of the heat generated. During the expansion of the gas in the power stroke, or through the turbine, the energy to pust the pistons or the blades comes from the heat of the gas. The temperature of the gas in the exhaust of a turbine is much cooler than the same gas at the inlet of the power blades.
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Posted by Bob-Fryml on Tuesday, November 8, 2005 5:29 PM
One evening during August 1965 my dad and I spent a little time on the passenger platforms at North Platte, Nebr. I remember seeing an eastbound mixed-merchandise come roaring through downtown at about 25-mph. As the lead turbine accelerated past me I thought my head was going to explode from the noise that locomotive made! It was the only time I ever a Union Pacific turbine in action, and it really made an impression on this 16-year-old!

U.P. 3985 with about 8,000-tons of double-stacks climbing Archer Hill (located a short ways east of Cheyenne) at 38-mph makes far less noise at trackside than one of those tender-equipped G.E. turbines. Hot-d*mn but they were loud!
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, November 8, 2005 1:28 PM
The heat energy of the burning fuel is converted to kinetic energy which spins the turbine. The output temp of the last turbine stage is a lot less than that at the beginning of the first stage. The 8500 hp had only 2 turbine stages and as I remember the input temp was in the area of 1200F, limited by the metallurgy at the time. The hotter you can make the input and the cooler the output temperature, the more useful work you can extract from the fuel burned.

Note to electro.. I looked at my copy of the operators manual ,but it says nothing about the horn, except how to blow it. :-)
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, November 8, 2005 12:01 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas

QUOTE: Originally posted by electro-ortcele

my question about horns gets burried over and over agian, so I'll ask it in another thread


Sorry electro, I spent about a half hour looking for info and came up with nothing. It probably had the same horn that UP was using on there diesel electrics of that time.


no problem, thanks for your effort,
I've opened another thead about horns in which I've asked about some other ones too, so it will be easier to spot by someone who knows it perhpase
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Posted by chad thomas on Tuesday, November 8, 2005 11:55 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by electro-ortcele

my question about horns gets burried over and over agian, so I'll ask it in another thread


Sorry electro, I spent about a half hour looking for info and came up with nothing. It probably had the same horn that UP was using on there diesel electrics of that time.
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Posted by chad thomas on Tuesday, November 8, 2005 11:50 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by RPRiebe

QUOTE: Originally posted by dave e

The hole in the bridge and roasted pigeons sound like urban legends to me. First, the exhaust wasn't THAT hot, the object of the game was to extract as much heat as possible from the fuel to spin the turbine. This is unlike a jet aircraft in which the useful energy comes out the back as thrust. Consider also the large steam locos were running at the same time, blasting the undersides of bridges.

I worked as a trainee engineer for GE, both at Erie when the 8500 hp were built and 3 months as service engineer at Omaha, NP and SLC.

Dave:
Young pigeons may have fallen to the heat of the exhaust, probably dead of shock from the heat, or grounded by singed feathers, but I am fairly sure veteran pigeons knew when to vacate, and when to relax.

Turbines are not driven by heat, turbines are driven by the force of the exhaust.
The trick of designing any (including auto units) turbine driven by combustion exhaust, is to design a system that can deal with the heat, which is in four figures, even in a piston engine turbine.
Efficient combustion produces two things, among others, greater output and greater heat; i.e. the reason the hottest part of any fire, is where the most efficient (complete) combustion is taking place.
I doubt a hole was "blown" , in the road, (yet, I was not there) but it proabably did melt the surface and caused fire at the hottest point, if it was a tar road.

I first heard the story from one who was involved in railroading, but that was a long time ago.




What is a piston engine turbine?
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, November 8, 2005 11:48 AM
my question about horns gets burried over and over agian, so I'll ask it in another thread
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, November 8, 2005 11:38 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by dave e

The hole in the bridge and roasted pigeons sound like urban legends to me. First, the exhaust wasn't THAT hot, the object of the game was to extract as much heat as possible from the fuel to spin the turbine. This is unlike a jet aircraft in which the useful energy comes out the back as thrust. Consider also the large steam locos were running at the same time, blasting the undersides of bridges.

I worked as a trainee engineer for GE, both at Erie when the 8500 hp were built and 3 months as service engineer at Omaha, NP and SLC.

Dave:
Young pigeons may have fallen to the heat of the exhaust, probably dead of shock from the heat, or grounded by singed feathers, but I am fairly sure veteran pigeons knew when to vacate, and when to relax.

Turbines are not driven by heat, turbines are driven by the force of the exhaust.
The trick of designing any (including auto units) turbine driven by combustion exhaust, is to design a system that can deal with the heat, which is in four figures, even in a piston engine turbine.
Efficient combustion produces two things, among others, greater output and greater heat; i.e. the reason the hottest part of any fire, is where the most efficient (complete) combustion is taking place.
I doubt a hole was "blown" , in the road, (yet, I was not there) but it proabably did melt the surface and caused fire at the hottest point, if it was a tar road.

I first heard the story from one who was involved in railroading, but that was a long time ago.

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, November 8, 2005 9:33 AM
Wyoming for sure. I heard that the big three unit turbines used to melt overpasses!!!!!
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, November 8, 2005 8:18 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by dave e

The hole in the bridge and roasted pigeons sound like urban legends to me. First, the exhaust wasn't THAT hot, the object of the game was to extract as much heat as possible from the fuel to spin the turbine. This is unlike a jet aircraft in which the useful energy comes out the back as thrust. Consider also the large steam locos were running at the same time, blasting the undersides of bridges.

I worked as a trainee engineer for GE, both at Erie when the 8500 hp were built and 3 months as service engineer at Omaha, NP and SLC.



so, do you know which horns were installed on them?
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, November 7, 2005 3:37 PM
The hole in the bridge and roasted pigeons sound like urban legends to me. First, the exhaust wasn't THAT hot, the object of the game was to extract as much heat as possible from the fuel to spin the turbine. This is unlike a jet aircraft in which the useful energy comes out the back as thrust. Consider also the large steam locos were running at the same time, blasting the undersides of bridges.

I worked as a trainee engineer for GE, both at Erie when the 8500 hp were built and 3 months as service engineer at Omaha, NP and SLC.
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, November 7, 2005 3:24 PM
The turbines mainly ran between Council Bluffs and Ogden. They ran a few of the 4500HP units on the LA&SL, including one that used LPG as fuel. There is a video out, UP's Mighty Turbines, or something like that.. Lots of good turbine noise there.
I thought they sounded like the safety valve on a steam loco letting go.
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Posted by PwdOpd on Monday, November 7, 2005 2:16 PM
Let me add a note. If you can locate a book by Rev. Harold Keekley entitled "Big Blow' you will have many of your questions answered. A fairly detailed account of all the turbines (with pictures) is given.

Paul
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Posted by PwdOpd on Monday, November 7, 2005 2:06 PM
They did get into Omaha on occassion, and were very loud going through the depot.
Paul
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Posted by passengerfan on Monday, November 7, 2005 1:46 PM
I know that the turbines quickly got the respect of the pigeons in Cheyenne that had the habit of nesting under the overpasses. Almost ever5y time a turbine left town you could see the pigeons dropping from the overpass cooked very quickly.
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Posted by chad thomas on Monday, November 7, 2005 1:36 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by samfp1943

These turbines were pretty much confined to upen country runs, noise being an issue in urban settings. There was a story told that at one time a crew had spotted an idling turbine under a bridge, possibly in Cheyenne, and the exhaust heat liquified the asphalt on the bridge..


I heard that story too. It "blew" a hole in the overpass as big as the exhaust stack, which is quite large. OOps!! They are lucky a small car didn't come along and drop down into the exhaust stack. That would be one for the newspapers.
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, November 7, 2005 1:27 PM
ok, but what about the horns, anyone have any idea which horns did UP use on GE units of that time?

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