turbine territory

[Anonymous]

Can anyone tell me, in which states were UP's turbines used.
Form pictures I know that they were used in Utah for sure, but which other states had GE turbines running through them?

[M636C]

UP Turbines were based in the locomotive depot in Green River Wyoming. I've seen excellent pictures of different types of UP turbines with the very distinctive Bluff Rock in the background. One winter photograph suggests that the turbines would have worked very well in the cold weather - turbines are much more efficient in cold weather.

M636C

[Modelcar]

...I remember seeing some of them..{up close}, right along side the highway while on an automotive test trip someplace out west but can't remember just where....I do remember they took my eye as being massive and impressive and different.....

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

...I remember seeing some of them..{up close}, right along side the highway while on an automotive test trip someplace out west but can't remember just where....I do remember they took my eye as being massive and impressive and different.....

Since you saw one of these things, I assume then that you are not the guy on the right on that picture in your profile [:D]
I wish I lived back then!

How did they sound? People say like a jet plane, but is it a high pitched whine like when a plane is on the airport or more of an afterburner-like rumbling sound?

[MJ4562]

I remember reading somewhere, I think it was Union Pacific: Salt Lake Route, that operating in arid, windy conditions caused a lot of problems with the turbine blades (sand abrasion). Combined with the inability to run them through urban areas, it meant that there were few routes they were suited for. I know I'm probably talking out my**** but how much truth is there to this?

electro-ortcele, there is a free .mpeg of a UP turbine on the MRR website under Resources/photos, audio, video. It will give you an idea of the sound they made at low speed. Sounds like an airplane taxiing---medium/high pitched whine.

[Modelcar]

...Hi electro-ortcele.....Guess I better clear up what's in the picture in my Bio...On the right is our granddaughter and that's me relaxing on the bench with communications radio in hand and my green pickup in the background....Now it has been replaced by a blue one....Pic was taken a few years ago...not many though.....Location is at our hiking, walking trail which is constructed on the ROW of a CSX rail line.....30 plus miles of smooth paved trail...!
On the engines...Don't remember too much specifics on the sound as we were passing them in our several test automobiles and simply got real close as the tracks were parallel to the highway at that point but I do remember they were large and massive and certainly different....That was nearly 40 years ago.....

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

...Hi electro-ortcele.....Guess I better clear up what's in the picture in my Bio...On the right is our granddaughter and that's me relaxing on the bench with communications radio in hand and my green pickup in the background....Now it has been replaced by a blue one....Pic was taken a few years ago...not many though.....Location is at our hiking, walking trail which is constructed on the ROW of a CSX rail line.....30 plus miles of smooth paved trail...!
On the engines...Don't remember too much specifics on the sound as we were passing them in our several test automobiles and simply got real close as the tracks were parallel to the highway at that point but I do remember they were large and massive and certainly different....That was nearly 40 years ago.....

yea, I knew you were the man on the left of course, i was just joking [:)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by APG45

I remember reading somewhere, I think it was Union Pacific: Salt Lake Route, that operating in arid, windy conditions caused a lot of problems with the turbine blades (sand abrasion). Combined with the inability to run them through urban areas, it meant that there were few routes they were suited for. I know I'm probably talking out my**** but how much truth is there to this?

electro-ortcele, there is a free .mpeg of a UP turbine on the MRR website under Resources/photos, audio, video. It will give you an idea of the sound they made at low speed. Sounds like an airplane taxiing---medium/high pitched whine.

I've seen the video, but the sound is mixed with that diesel that is behind it.
I've got a new pentrex video comming in a few days (UP's mighty turbines), so I guess I'll get lots of great sound recordings of it.

[Anonymous]

Anyone know which was starting and continuous tractive effort of 10000hp big blow and 4500 veranda?

[Anonymous]

ok, another question regarding this, anyone know which horn did these UP turbines have on them?

[samfp1943]

These turbines were pretty much confined to upen country runs, noise being an issue in urban settings. There was a story told that at one time a crew had spotted an idling turbine under a bridge, possibly in Cheyenne, and the exhaust heat liquified the asphalt on the bridge..

[Anonymous]

ok, but what about the horns, anyone have any idea which horns did UP use on GE units of that time?

[chad thomas]

QUOTE: Originally posted by samfp1943

These turbines were pretty much confined to upen country runs, noise being an issue in urban settings. There was a story told that at one time a crew had spotted an idling turbine under a bridge, possibly in Cheyenne, and the exhaust heat liquified the asphalt on the bridge..

I heard that story too. It "blew" a hole in the overpass as big as the exhaust stack, which is quite large. OOps!! They are lucky a small car didn't come along and drop down into the exhaust stack. That would be one for the newspapers.

[passengerfan]

I know that the turbines quickly got the respect of the pigeons in Cheyenne that had the habit of nesting under the overpasses. Almost ever5y time a turbine left town you could see the pigeons dropping from the overpass cooked very quickly.

[PwdOpd]

They did get into Omaha on occassion, and were very loud going through the depot.
Paul

[PwdOpd]

Let me add a note. If you can locate a book by Rev. Harold Keekley entitled "Big Blow' you will have many of your questions answered. A fairly detailed account of all the turbines (with pictures) is given.

Paul

[Anonymous]

The turbines mainly ran between Council Bluffs and Ogden. They ran a few of the 4500HP units on the LA&SL, including one that used LPG as fuel. There is a video out, UP's Mighty Turbines, or something like that.. Lots of good turbine noise there.
I thought they sounded like the safety valve on a steam loco letting go.

[Anonymous]

The hole in the bridge and roasted pigeons sound like urban legends to me. First, the exhaust wasn't THAT hot, the object of the game was to extract as much heat as possible from the fuel to spin the turbine. This is unlike a jet aircraft in which the useful energy comes out the back as thrust. Consider also the large steam locos were running at the same time, blasting the undersides of bridges.

I worked as a trainee engineer for GE, both at Erie when the 8500 hp were built and 3 months as service engineer at Omaha, NP and SLC.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dave e

The hole in the bridge and roasted pigeons sound like urban legends to me. First, the exhaust wasn't THAT hot, the object of the game was to extract as much heat as possible from the fuel to spin the turbine. This is unlike a jet aircraft in which the useful energy comes out the back as thrust. Consider also the large steam locos were running at the same time, blasting the undersides of bridges.

I worked as a trainee engineer for GE, both at Erie when the 8500 hp were built and 3 months as service engineer at Omaha, NP and SLC.

so, do you know which horns were installed on them?

[Anonymous]

Wyoming for sure. I heard that the big three unit turbines used to melt overpasses!!!!!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dave e

The hole in the bridge and roasted pigeons sound like urban legends to me. First, the exhaust wasn't THAT hot, the object of the game was to extract as much heat as possible from the fuel to spin the turbine. This is unlike a jet aircraft in which the useful energy comes out the back as thrust. Consider also the large steam locos were running at the same time, blasting the undersides of bridges.

I worked as a trainee engineer for GE, both at Erie when the 8500 hp were built and 3 months as service engineer at Omaha, NP and SLC.

Dave:
Young pigeons may have fallen to the heat of the exhaust, probably dead of shock from the heat, or grounded by singed feathers, but I am fairly sure veteran pigeons knew when to vacate, and when to relax.

Turbines are not driven by heat, turbines are driven by the force of the exhaust.
The trick of designing any (including auto units) turbine driven by combustion exhaust, is to design a system that can deal with the heat, which is in four figures, even in a piston engine turbine.
Efficient combustion produces two things, among others, greater output and greater heat; i.e. the reason the hottest part of any fire, is where the most efficient (complete) combustion is taking place.
I doubt a hole was "blown" , in the road, (yet, I was not there) but it proabably did melt the surface and caused fire at the hottest point, if it was a tar road.

I first heard the story from one who was involved in railroading, but that was a long time ago.

[Anonymous]

my question about horns gets burried over and over agian, so I'll ask it in another thread

[chad thomas]

QUOTE: Originally posted by RPRiebe

QUOTE: Originally posted by dave e

The hole in the bridge and roasted pigeons sound like urban legends to me. First, the exhaust wasn't THAT hot, the object of the game was to extract as much heat as possible from the fuel to spin the turbine. This is unlike a jet aircraft in which the useful energy comes out the back as thrust. Consider also the large steam locos were running at the same time, blasting the undersides of bridges.

I worked as a trainee engineer for GE, both at Erie when the 8500 hp were built and 3 months as service engineer at Omaha, NP and SLC.

Dave:
Young pigeons may have fallen to the heat of the exhaust, probably dead of shock from the heat, or grounded by singed feathers, but I am fairly sure veteran pigeons knew when to vacate, and when to relax.

Turbines are not driven by heat, turbines are driven by the force of the exhaust.
The trick of designing any (including auto units) turbine driven by combustion exhaust, is to design a system that can deal with the heat, which is in four figures, even in a piston engine turbine.
Efficient combustion produces two things, among others, greater output and greater heat; i.e. the reason the hottest part of any fire, is where the most efficient (complete) combustion is taking place.
I doubt a hole was "blown" , in the road, (yet, I was not there) but it proabably did melt the surface and caused fire at the hottest point, if it was a tar road.

I first heard the story from one who was involved in railroading, but that was a long time ago.

What is a piston engine turbine?

[chad thomas]

QUOTE: Originally posted by electro-ortcele

my question about horns gets burried over and over agian, so I'll ask it in another thread

Sorry electro, I spent about a half hour looking for info and came up with nothing. It probably had the same horn that UP was using on there diesel electrics of that time.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas

QUOTE: Originally posted by electro-ortcele

my question about horns gets burried over and over agian, so I'll ask it in another thread

Sorry electro, I spent about a half hour looking for info and came up with nothing. It probably had the same horn that UP was using on there diesel electrics of that time.

no problem, thanks for your effort,
I've opened another thead about horns in which I've asked about some other ones too, so it will be easier to spot by someone who knows it perhpase

[Anonymous]

The heat energy of the burning fuel is converted to kinetic energy which spins the turbine. The output temp of the last turbine stage is a lot less than that at the beginning of the first stage. The 8500 hp had only 2 turbine stages and as I remember the input temp was in the area of 1200F, limited by the metallurgy at the time. The hotter you can make the input and the cooler the output temperature, the more useful work you can extract from the fuel burned.

Note to electro.. I looked at my copy of the operators manual ,but it says nothing about the horn, except how to blow it. :-)

[Bob-Fryml]

One evening during August 1965 my dad and I spent a little time on the passenger platforms at North Platte, Nebr. I remember seeing an eastbound mixed-merchandise come roaring through downtown at about 25-mph. As the lead turbine accelerated past me I thought my head was going to explode from the noise that locomotive made! It was the only time I ever a Union Pacific turbine in action, and it really made an impression on this 16-year-old!

U.P. 3985 with about 8,000-tons of double-stacks climbing Archer Hill (located a short ways east of Cheyenne) at 38-mph makes far less noise at trackside than one of those tender-equipped G.E. turbines. Hot-d*mn but they were loud!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by RPRiebe
[brDave:
Turbines are not driven by heat, turbines are driven by the force of the exhaust.
The trick of designing any (including auto units) turbine driven by combustion exhaust, is to design a system that can deal with the heat, which is in four figures, even in a piston engine turbine.
Efficient combustion produces two things, among others, greater output and greater heat; i.e. the reason the hottest part of any fire, is where the most efficient (complete) combustion is taking place.

Oh but they are driven by the heat. You had better brush up on your thermodynamics. The real trick to efficient engines, be they reciprocating steam. turbine steam, otto cycle, diesel cycle, sterling cycle, or gas turbine, is to maximize the use of the heat generated. During the expansion of the gas in the power stroke, or through the turbine, the energy to pust the pistons or the blades comes from the heat of the gas. The temperature of the gas in the exhaust of a turbine is much cooler than the same gas at the inlet of the power blades.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rdganthracite

QUOTE: Originally posted by RPRiebe
[brDave:
Turbines are not driven by heat, turbines are driven by the force of the exhaust.
The trick of designing any (including auto units) turbine driven by combustion exhaust, is to design a system that can deal with the heat, which is in four figures, even in a piston engine turbine.
Efficient combustion produces two things, among others, greater output and greater heat; i.e. the reason the hottest part of any fire, is where the most efficient (complete) combustion is taking place.

Oh but they are driven by the heat. You had better brush up on your thermodynamics. The real trick to efficient engines, be they reciprocating steam. turbine steam, otto cycle, diesel cycle, sterling cycle, or gas turbine, is to maximize the use of the heat generated. During the expansion of the gas in the power stroke, or through the turbine, the energy to pust the pistons or the blades comes from the heat of the gas. The temperature of the gas in the exhaust of a turbine is much cooler than the same gas at the inlet of the power blades.

Yes if you want to use language better suited for a technical thesis, but this is not a tech journal.
The exhaust from the small turbine in the Chrysler turbine car was 1,200 degree f until the regenerator reduced it to 500 degrees f.

I am sure the turbines in the locomotives exhaust was hotter than the car and if it was parked under a overpass, as the story told to me, says it was, even at 500 degrees, it will seriously damage the pavement.

Worries about the heat given off by the exhaust in the Chrysler turbine car, is one of the many reasons it was cancelled.

Chad:
A piston engine turbine, is what is called a turbo. It is a turbine style supercharger driven by the engines exhaust, verses a basically similar, in compression funtion, unit driven mechanically off of the engine.
Bob

[Tulyar15]

An amusing story I heard about the GWR Gas Turbine loco #18000 (the first of two Gas Turbine loco's ordered by the Great Western in 1947 just before nationalisation) was that on one occassion it was being demonstrated to a party of journalists at Paddington station. So that the guy doing the talking could be heard, they shut its engine down. When they started it up again, the force of the blast dislodged a lot of soot from the roof, showering the journalists!