Canadian Railways Operations

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by mhurley87f

Did any Canadian Railway adopt the practice of controlling Single Line working by interlocking signals and points, and the issue of Single Line Tokens to trains authorised to enter a single line section?

I believe I read staffs were used on the Canadian Pacific for the bridge crossing the Ottawa River between Ottawa and Hull, Quebec.

Wow! There's that language comprehension thing again, except in stereo![;)] Could a Canadian or a Brit please explain this to this dumb American? Thanks

Murphy the same system was used in a few places in the US also. One place it was used was on Donner Pass on the then Central Pacific, later Southern Pacific. The book "Donner Pass" by John Signor, published by Golden West Books had a good description of how the equipment worked along with illustrations. The SP used to have trains pickup their tokens on the fly using an
apparatus similar to that used for picking up mail sacks on the fly. There are several pages in the book devoted to the subject along with good illustrations.

[Murphy Siding]

Sounds like gas stations that attatch the bathroom key to a 2 x 4.[;)]

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by mhurley87f

Single Line Tokens / Train Staffs

Did any Canadian Railway adopt the practice of controlling Single Line working by interlocking signals and points, and the issue of Single Line Tokens to trains authorised to enter a single line section?

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

Wow! There's that language comprehension thing again, except in stereo![;)] Could a Canadian or a Brit please explain this to this dumb American? Thanks

I don't know the details but I did see it on the telly[;)] once being used in India. It is explained in one of my 150+ Branchline magazines and I've started looking for it. It was indeed used by the CPR to cross the Ottawa River.
A member of the crew would take this baton thing out of a box on one end of the bridge and carry it over to the other side onboard the train. All signals would read stop until the staff was placed in the box on the other side. CP did use it at several places across Canada.
http://www.railways.incanada.net/circle/findings8.html

Boy did that link get confusing in a hurry![sigh] I guess I understand the concept, but man is that weird![:)]

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by be_random1991

So what shortlines belong to CN? CN is my favorite railroad, but I don't know much about it, so please help me out with this. Thanks!

I can't think of any shortlines that are owned by CN. They did own the Canada and Gulf Terminal Railway in eastern Quebec at one time. They have purchased regionals like BC Rail and have assimilated them. In the USA they own regionals DM&IR and B&LE and will probably assimilate them.
Follow up questions are welcome.

How about the opposite: Has CN or CP ever spun-off some trackage that became a shortline?

[BR60103]

Mr. Siding:
I think CP Dieselized from the west because the President (N R Crump) had worked for years in the Rockies on the increasing size of steam locos and felt that diesels would clear up a lot of headaches.
CN and CP have spun off a large number of shortlines. These have drifted in and out of various combinations (usually US ownerships). Locally, the Brampton and Orangeville is a former CPR line while the Goderich and Exeter is a former CNR line. CPR has incorporated in itself a large number of shortlines, either as takeovers or as subsidiary companies.
I'm not sure about CN owned shortlines -- they have Wisconsin Central and Illinois Central and DM&IR and B&LE .
The only staff/token operation I know is on the Halton County Radial Railway (the trolley museum) (see Trolleyboy's posts) where two reverse loops are connected by a mile of single track. They have a 5 segmented staff which allows them to run 5 cars at a time. (Rule: each car going down the line must have a segment of staff and must see the base segment of staff. Last car takes all remaining pieces. Cars can run without a segment iff they have seen the entire staff.)
(For the others: a staff or token is authorization to be on a length of single track. They are almost always interlocked with the signalling system so that only one can be available at a time. There is a machine in the signalbox that allows one to be withdrawn when the signalmen at both ends of the line cooperate.)

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Logic question ( it's a curse that my brain was hard wired for logic- the only noticeable outward trait is a mouth that's always saying hmmmm........?) : How do CN and CP compete with BNSF and UP in hauling container traffic from the west coast to Chicago? Wouldn't the Canadian routes be longer and more mountainous?

From Chicago to the three main northwest container ports BNSF has the shortest routes. BNSF must cross the Rockies at Marias Pass, 5213'. Further west BNSF goes through Cascade tunnel (no stacks ?) at 2833' or Stampede Pass (no stacks) at 2852' or the longer route along the Columbia River.
Union Pacific reaches 8013' at Sherman and then must battle the Blue Mountains, 4305'.
Canadian Pacific goes through the Rockies via Kicking Horse Pass, 5326' and then through the Selkirks via Rogers Pass, 3463'.
Canadian National takes the long route to avoid grades. Yellowhead pass is only 3717' and CN could use fewer locomotives than the other three railways.
Another flat route is the joint CP-UP route through Crowsnest Pass, 4459'.

Chicago-Tacoma
2220 miles BNSF Cascade
2248 miles BNSF Stampede
2358 miles BNSF Columbia
2373 miles UP
2418 miles CP-UP

Chicago-Seattle
2181 BNSF Cascade
2251 BNSF Stampede
2398 BNSF Columbia
2406 UP
2451 CP-UP

Chicago-Vancouver
2212 CPR
2271 BNSF Cascade
2397 CN
2405 BNSF Stampede
2552 BNSF Columbia.

[Murphy Siding]

It appears that CPR would have a competitive route, mileagewise. is CN competitive with the longer route, but easier grades?

[mhurley87f]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by mhurley87f

Single Line Tokens / Train Staffs

Did any Canadian Railway adopt the practice of controlling Single Line working by interlocking signals and points, and the issue of Single Line Tokens to trains authorised to enter a single line section?

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

Wow! There's that language comprehension thing again, except in stereo![;)] Could a Canadian or a Brit please explain this to this dumb American? Thanks

I don't know the details but I did see it on the telly[;)] once being used in India. It is explained in one of my 150+ Branchline magazines and I've started looking for it. It was indeed used by the CPR to cross the Ottawa River.
A member of the crew would take this baton thing out of a box on one end of the bridge and carry it over to the other side onboard the train. All signals would read stop until the staff was placed in the box on the other side. CP did use it at several places across Canada.
http://www.railways.incanada.net/circle/findings8.html

Boy did that link get confusing in a hurry![sigh] I guess I understand the concept, but man is that weird![:)]

Dear M.S. (and Others),

Sorry to have unwittingly baffled some of you with my enquiry, perhaps Cogload would be best placed to explain the workings in question.

Regards,

[jchnhtfd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by be_random1991

So what shortlines belong to CN? CN is my favorite railroad, but I don't know much about it, so please help me out with this. Thanks!

One has to remember, in discussing CN (which is my favourite too, but not by much!) that CN was sort of 'assembled' rather than 'built'. In some ways, curiously similar to Conrail, actually. So a question as to what short lines belong to CN is a little confusing, as it depends on just how far back in the history of the company one wants to go.

The main backbone of the system -- the primary east-west mainline -- would never have qualified as a short line, but there are any number of short lines which were brought under the CN umbrella either when CN was assembled (mostly to ensure that there were two major railroads in Canada) as a Crown corporation, or before -- or afterwards.

The Grand Trunk, for instance, was a major part of the puzzle -- but it itself was made up of assorted bits and pieces, and actually had two parts: Grand Trunk and Grand Trunk Western. It's the only part I really know much about without going to reference books! But as I write, a model of GTW 3412, a Mikado, sits on my desk (to the confusion of my co-workers), detailed as it was in the late 1950s, when it worked on the Central Vermont -- which was a subsidiary of the Grand Trunk, not the Grand Trunk Western. At that time we also had some Geeps from Winnipeg, and some RS11s which we'd gotten ourselves, and some C-Liners which came from who-knows-where, not to mention some Mountains which were picked up for a song.

It's rather confusing...

I would say, off hand (and I don't have my references here!) that there were at least a dozen short lines in Ontario alone which went into the makeup of the CN.

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mhurley87f

Dear M.S. (and Others),

Sorry to have unwittingly baffled some of you with my enquiry, perhaps Cogload would be best placed to explain the workings in question.

Martin,
Thanks for making the enquiry, that is an interesting topic.
It is this link that is baffling. It seems to be written for fellow signal maintainers only. http://www.railways.incanada.net/circle/findings8.html

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

It appears that CPR would have a competitive route, mileagewise. is CN competitive with the longer route, but easier grades?

Yes. BNSF does have the shortest route, but Cascade tunnel is a choke point which negates that advantage. This goes for the Stampede Pass as well. Perhaps in the future CP will be part of UP, and the Crowsnest route could see more use.
There are many people in Canada that say the CPR should have gone through Yellowhead Pass instead of Kicking Horse. The route still effects the character of both railways. The CNR could certainly call itself "The Water Level Route" while CP is a mountain railway, like the PRR. In 1972 CP even put up a quarter mile test section of catenary in Rogers Pass as part of a study on electrification.
CN bought 16 GP40's and 268 GP40-2L(W) locomotives, while CP never acquired any of GP40s. CP bought the largest fleet of SD40-2's (until passed by BN and UP). CN also got SD40s, but most of them were without dynamic brakes. CN never got into Locotrol while CP built a fleet first using robot cars and then more snoot SD40s than anyone else.
During the last 10 years CP has bought all of their new locomotives with AC traction motors, 61 SD90MAC (43), 4 SD90MAC (H), 438 AC4400CW, and now 60 ES44AC's.
CN has purchased all of their new locomotives with DC traction, 26 SD70I, 175 SD75I, 90 Dash 8-40CM, and 233 Dash 9-44CW.

[daveklepper]

Logical!

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mhurley87f

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by mhurley87f

Single Line Tokens / Train Staffs

Did any Canadian Railway adopt the practice of controlling Single Line working by interlocking signals and points, and the issue of Single Line Tokens to trains authorised to enter a single line section?

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

Wow! There's that language comprehension thing again, except in stereo![;)] Could a Canadian or a Brit please explain this to this dumb American? Thanks

I don't know the details but I did see it on the telly[;)] once being used in India. It is explained in one of my 150+ Branchline magazines and I've started looking for it. It was indeed used by the CPR to cross the Ottawa River.
A member of the crew would take this baton thing out of a box on one end of the bridge and carry it over to the other side onboard the train. All signals would read stop until the staff was placed in the box on the other side. CP did use it at several places across Canada.
http://www.railways.incanada.net/circle/findings8.html

Boy did that link get confusing in a hurry![sigh] I guess I understand the concept, but man is that weird![:)]

Dear M.S. (and Others),

Sorry to have unwittingly baffled some of you with my enquiry, perhaps Cogload would be best placed to explain the workings in question.

Regards,

Certainly, no need to apologize. I enjoy learning about new things. For someone like me, though, the link might well have been written in another language, as it went right over my head. I keep meaning to ask Cogload to explain what a signalman does.[:)]

Thanks

[samfp1943]

Recently, I saw some links on the Alaska Railroad website: The were in reference to studies of extentions of the AKRR ,to tie in with a Canadian partner and open a land link to Alaska via rail.. I am wondering if there is any serious consideration on the Canadian side for this to happen? One of the studies linked on the AK RR site was a study by CN.. It would seem that if this happened it would create a real bonanza in traffic for carriers involved.

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by samfp1943

Recently, I saw some links on the Alaska Railroad website: The were in reference to studies of extentions of the AKRR ,to tie in with a Canadian partner and open a land link to Alaska via rail.. I am wondering if there is any serious consideration on the Canadian side for this to happen? One of the studies linked on the AK RR site was a study by CN.. It would seem that if this happened it would create a real bonanza in traffic for carriers involved.

I can't see the line being built from Fort Nelson to the Alaskan border with Canadian money. A $5 billion natural gas pipeline is planned for the MacKenzie Valley and a $10 billion natural gas pipeline is going to be built along the Alaska Highway.
$100 billion is laid out for various projects in the Alberta Tar Sands.
I can't see American or Alaskan taxpayers paying for a railway in Canada.
The railway makes sense, but there is no one to pay for it.

[Murphy Siding]

Is there freight traffic on Vancouver Island? I thought I read it was just the *dayliner* thingy for train operations?

[selector]

RailAmerica operates some diesels for tanker delivery around the mid-Island. I have only ever seen them once...passing through Nanaimo, natch. Why couldn't it have been a working Connie or something? [:o)]

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally this was posted by Mr. Murphy Siding, who lives in S.E.S.D.

Is there freight traffic on Vancouver Island? I thought I read it was just the *dayliner* thingy for train operations?

I thought you, your three boys, and the Fashionpolicewoman rode one of these *dayliner* thingies up in Duluth ?
(The cats stayed home ?)

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally this was posted by Mr. Murphy Siding, who lives in S.E.S.D.

Is there freight traffic on Vancouver Island? I thought I read it was just the *dayliner* thingy for train operations?

I thought you, your three boys, and the Fashionpolicewoman rode one of these *dayliner* thingies up in Duluth ?
(The cats stayed home ?)

We haven't ridden the RDC car in Duluth yet. We do always ride the train though. I see from the newsletter I get that they now have a former CNW bi-level commuter car to add to their consist.[:)]

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by selector

RailAmerica operates some diesels for tanker delivery around the mid-Island. I have only ever seen them once...passing through Nanaimo, natch. Why couldn't it have been a working Connie or something? [:o)]

What's a Connie?

[selector]

Sorry. A 2-8-0 Consolidation...one of the most popular steam configurations ever. A great workhorse that was built ranging from smallish switchers to ones as large as heavy Mikado 2-8-2's.

The Kamloops Heritage RR, Kamloops, BC, has this rather purdy l'il filly.

[nanaimo73]

The 2141 in Kamloops was built by CLC in 1912 for the Canadian Northern Railway. I believe it was the last operating CNR steam locomotive on Vancouver Island.
In Ottawa 2 truck shay #3 has been restored to operation. It was used by Crown Zellerbach here on the Island at Campbell River to unload barges into the 1970's.

[nanaimo73]

Allen,
The shot on the inside cover of the December Trains is from Morant's Curve, located in Banff National Park in Alberta near the border with British Columbia. This is widely regarded as the most scenic shot in Canada.
http://www.pbase.com/turnstyle/image/49796670
http://www.pbase.com/turnstyle/image/49824255
http://www.photosbyearly.com/morntcrv.htm

It was named after long time CPR photographer Nicholas Morant, who took many PR shots here.
http://www.sandhillbooks.com/cgi-bin/sandhillbooks/180.html

The locomotives in the Alstom ad are 2 CP AC4400CW followed by a leaser that looks like an ex Conrail C30-7. That is an eastbound (empty) pota***rain with Canadian style cylindrical cars.

http://www.coloradorailcar.com/about.htm

Your thread-
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=-1&TOPIC_ID=48259&REPLY_ID=525701#525701

[Anonymous]

Wow! Thanks, Dale.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

The 2141 in Kamloops was built by CLC in 1912 for the Canadian Northern Railway. I believe it was the last operating CNR steam locomotive on Vancouver Island.
In Ottawa 2 truck shay #3 has been restored to operation. It was used by Crown Zellerbach here on the Island at Campbell River to unload barges into the 1970's.

You had an active steam locomotive working into the 1970?[:)]

[selector]

Sure, why not. They had their first movie theatre built in 69! [:D]

[THayman]

There's a CSX canadian division?

[jchnhtfd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by THayman

There's a CSX canadian division?

believe it or not! Basically Detroit/Windsor to Hamilton to Niagara Falls -- ex New York Central. Not sure but I think some of the track is pulled up and it operates on CN by trackage rights -- JunctionFan would know.

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jchnhtfd

QUOTE: Originally posted by THayman

There's a CSX canadian division?

believe it or not! Basically Detroit/Windsor to Hamilton to Niagara Falls -- ex New York Central. Not sure but I think some of the track is pulled up and it operates on CN by trackage rights -- JunctionFan would know.

The CSX in Canada ran from Detroit / Windsor to St. Thomas and then on trackage rights over NYC to Buffalo. A second line ran from Sarnia / Port Huron down to the first line at Blenheim. This trackage came from the Pere Marquette Railway. I believe all that remains is in the petrochemical area south of Sarnia.

NS had or has trackage rights from Detroit to Buffalo which came from the Wabash.

[samfp1943]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by samfp1943

Recently, I saw some links on the Alaska Railroad website: The were in reference to studies of extentions of the AKRR ,to tie in with a Canadian partner and open a land link to Alaska via rail.. I am wondering if there is any serious consideration on the Canadian side for this to happen? One of the studies linked on the AK RR site was a study by CN.. It would seem that if this happened it would create a real bonanza in traffic for carriers involved.

I can't see the line being built from Fort Nelson to the Alaskan border with Canadian money. A $5 billion natural gas pipeline is planned for the MacKenzie Valley and a $10 billion natural gas pipeline is going to be built along the Alaska Highway.
$100 billion is laid out for various projects in the Alberta Tar Sands.
I can't see American or Alaskan taxpayers paying for a railway in Canada.
The railway makes sense, but there is no one to pay for it.

Aparently, I thought that I had read, and interpreted the information to indicate that the AKRR extention was to be a part of a sort of super corridor project, to include piplines and highway as well as a rail connection..I am sure the financing would be a prettty arcane exercise, but this kind of enterprise would surely open that whole area up to major economic development.. Still it is a pretty interesting study.

[Murphy Siding]

Grand Trunk is the American arm of CN. (Grand Funk Railroad is something else entirely!). Are there Canadian railroads owned by American railroads?