Canadian Railways Operations

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

We read about, and the luckier among us, see, American transcontinental trains zooming across the country.What about the Canadian transcontinentals? Where is most of their traffic coming from, and going to? Is there a *land bridge* type set-up, running containers from west cost to east coast?
Thanks.

Canadian Pacific is something like what BN was, hauling a lot of bulk materials. CP's busiest line is between Vancouver and Golden, in British Columbia, hauling coal, grain, sulphur and pota***o the port of Vancouver to be shipped across the Pacific.
Canadian National is more like the ATSF was, with a lot of merchandise trains.
A lot of containers come into Canada at Vancouver and are carried by CN and CP to the USA (Chicago) or central Canada (Toronto). Montreal is the busiest eastern container port with CP and CN hauling the containers to the Toronto area or Chicago.
I don't think many containers cross Canada between the Pacific and the Atlantic.

[jchnhtfd]

nanaimo -- I'd forgotten that editorial. It's just... wonderful! In many many ways the Canadian Pacific made Canada a reality, and the story of the construction of that railroad is truly amazing. Both it and the CN (I still prefer Canadian National, but what the heck) are astonishing systems.

Canada is a great, great country with two great railraods tying it together. And with the CN now going to the Gulf of Mexico... think about it -- from the Atlantic to the Pacific; Hudson's Bay to the Gulf... tundra (I loved that photo in Trains of a sunrise at Churchill!) to Halifax...

Oh well..

O Canada!

[Murphy Siding]

Logic question ( it's a curse that my brain was hard wired for logic- the only noticeable outward trait is a mouth that's always saying hmmmm........?) : How do CN and CP compete with BNSF and UP in hauling container traffic from the west coast to Chicago? Wouldn't the Canadian routes be longer and more mountainous?

[BentnoseWillie]

Not really. I don't know the CP grades offhand, but I think CN's transcontinental ruling grade is around 1.5%, thanks to the sweat of surveyors and the dynamite of engineers. [:)]

CP has to go through the Kicking Horse, which is a stiffer grade. Even with the Spiral Tunnels, the old joke still applies that CP got the scenery, but CN got the grades.

[Anonymous]

A belated and deep thank-you to nanaimo. (Talk about a hot thread! Two days away and almost two pages slid by me.)

We are justifiably thrilled with nanaimo's selfless dedication to the forum. All the more so because I believe at one time nanaimo said he found Canadian RR's boring compared to US lines. He honors us. So please anyone help the guy if you can with any requests for info re the US lines. You may be bored with some domestic lines, but like nanaimo know how to find or already have superior knowledge to be shared.

Here in Chicago we have, I believe, six of the seven remaining Class One's. I have gotten way hot for the CP as of late and am really enjoying and appreciating and learning what's going on -- I'm a slow researcher but I feel linear progress and achievement and I wouldn't feel so happy without the generosity and sharing of nanaimo and so many others both here and around the world. All the more so because this is going on without hissy fits or anyone's trying to flaunt their allegedly superior world-view.

Thanks again Dale.

[nanaimo73]

Ack !
Thanks Allen, but if I was that smart, I'd have a signature on my posts by now.
[:I]

[jchnhtfd]

with regard to grades and operation from west coast ports to Chicago/Thunder Bay / Duluth/Superior, wherever -- it certainly is true that there is some mighty tall and spectacular scenery on both CP and CN, but the grades are quite comparable on the lines from Vancouver (and Prince Rupert) and the distances are, too.

[Anonymous]

Nanaimo, not only do I not know how to do an auto signature, I don't even know how to call up that white box that reiterates past postings. Something I keep promising myself to do.

Allen

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BentnoseWillie

Not really. I don't know the CP grades offhand, but I think CN's transcontinental ruling grade is around 1.5%, thanks to the sweat of surveyors and the dynamite of engineers. [:)]

CP has to go through the Kicking Horse, which is a stiffer grade. Even with the Spiral Tunnels, the old joke still applies that CP got the scenery, but CN got the grades.

The April 2004 issue of Trains Magazine features mountain railroads (railways) and is very good reading. Pages 48 and 49 describe the Canadian National and Canadian Pacific grade profiles from Winnipeg to Vancouver. Pages 74 through 81 describe the building of the Canadian Pacific and the Canadian Northern (now part of the Canadian National) in British Columbia. Pages 82 through 89 describe life at the last pusher station on the Canadian Pacific, at Rogers BC.
[:)]

[selector]

The locating engineers and division chiefs for the CPR were usually Americans, BTW.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Isambard

QUOTE: Originally posted by BentnoseWillie

Not really. I don't know the CP grades offhand, but I think CN's transcontinental ruling grade is around 1.5%, thanks to the sweat of surveyors and the dynamite of engineers. [:)]

CP has to go through the Kicking Horse, which is a stiffer grade. Even with the Spiral Tunnels, the old joke still applies that CP got the scenery, but CN got the grades.

The April 2004 issue of Trains Magazine features mountain railroads (railways) and is very good reading. Pages 48 and 49 describe the Canadian National and Canadian Pacific grade profiles from Winnipeg to Vancouver. Pages 74 through 81 describe the building of the Canadian Pacific and the Canadian Northern (now part of the Canadian National) in British Columbia. Pages 82 through 89 describe life at the last pusher station on the Canadian Pacific, at Rogers BC.
[:)]

I've read that too. That, and my perception ( or misperception? ) that it seems a lot longer from the west coast to Chicago by way of Canada, makes me wonder how CN & CP compete with BNSF & UP?
I saw mention that the traffic thins out on the eastern end of Canada. What makes up most of that traffic? It would seem that Great Lakes shipping would be a big competitor for a big portion of that freight?

[jchnhtfd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by selector

The locating engineers and division chiefs for the CPR were usually Americans, BTW.

Technically, quite true -- but they came to Canada and the CPR, and became Canadian (just like a whole lot of other immigrants) and put their hearts and souls into building that great railroad -- they thought of themselves as railroaders, first and foremost.

[Murphy Siding]

Dale ( in Nanaimo ): I've been reading the multitude of links you've posted. ( Imagine that[:)]) It appears that rail operations in your local area are somewhat in limbo? What is the long term plan for the line that the shortline operator had?

Thanks

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by Isambard

QUOTE: Originally posted by BentnoseWillie

Not really. I don't know the CP grades offhand, but I think CN's transcontinental ruling grade is around 1.5%, thanks to the sweat of surveyors and the dynamite of engineers. [:)]

CP has to go through the Kicking Horse, which is a stiffer grade. Even with the Spiral Tunnels, the old joke still applies that CP got the scenery, but CN got the grades.

The April 2004 issue of Trains Magazine features mountain railroads (railways) and is very good reading. Pages 48 and 49 describe the Canadian National and Canadian Pacific grade profiles from Winnipeg to Vancouver. Pages 74 through 81 describe the building of the Canadian Pacific and the Canadian Northern (now part of the Canadian National) in British Columbia. Pages 82 through 89 describe life at the last pusher station on the Canadian Pacific, at Rogers BC.
[:)]

I've read that too. That, and my perception ( or misperception? ) that it seems a lot longer from the west coast to Chicago by way of Canada, makes me wonder how CN & CP compete with BNSF & UP?
I saw mention that the traffic thins out on the eastern end of Canada. What makes up most of that traffic? It would seem that Great Lakes shipping would be a big competitor for a big portion of that freight?

Don't forget that it is the shipping company that determines where the container is landed. Not all companies serve all ports. Also where on the ship the container is loaded determines where it is unloaded. The majority of shipping companies serve Los Angeles/Long Beach as their first port of call after crossing the Pacific. They will unload the majority of their cargo there. They will not take on very many containers in LA. They then proceed north to either Seattle/Tacoma or Vancouver, rarely both. Here they will unload the remaining North America bound containers and all loads for Asia, and then fill the remaining spaces with empties. This is why both BNSF and UP run alot of baretables from the Pacific Northwest to LA. Business for Canada is sent to Vancouver to avoid having to pass through US Customs. US traffic unloaded through Vancouver moves in Bond across Canada and is inspected at either the border crossings Portal, ND or Ranier, MN or at Minneapolis or Chicago. The port of Vancouver can compete with Seattle/Tacoma due to capacity issues at
Seattle/Tacoma (port and railroad).

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Dale ( in Nanaimo ): I've been reading the multitude of links you've posted. ( Imagine that[:)]) It appears that rail operations in your local area are somewhat in limbo? What is the long term plan for the line that the shortline operator had?

Thanks

Railamerica has wanted to get out since the paper mill over in Port Alberni switched to Trucks. A group on the Island made up of local governments and First Nations (Native Bands, or Indian Tribes in the USA ?) want to buy the line. This may be for $1, with Railamerica getting some kind of donation tax credit. I really don't think there is enough traffic here for that. Perhaps just a local line here in Nanaimo handling propane could make it. The 140 miles from Victoria to Courtenay is mainly for VIA's Dayliner. That service does not make economic sense, but many people here feel Ottawa owes us that service from 1871 when British Columbia joined Canada under a promise of rail service to Victoria.
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rfaulks/pages/reprieve.html
http://www.trainweb.org/canadianrailways/articles/EsquimaltAndNanaimoRailway.htm

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Dale ( in Nanaimo ): I've been reading the multitude of links you've posted. ( Imagine that[:)]) It appears that rail operations in your local area are somewhat in limbo? What is the long term plan for the line that the shortline operator had?

Thanks

Railamerica has wanted to get out since the paper mill over in Port Alberni switched to Trucks. A group on the Island made up of local governments and First Nations (Native Bands, or Indian Tribes in the USA ?) want to buy the line. This may be for $1, with Railamerica getting some kind of donation tax credit. I really don't think there is enough traffic here for that. Perhaps just a local line here in Nanaimo handling propane could make it. The 140 miles from Victoria to Courtenay is mainly for VIA's Dayliner. That service does not make economic sense, but many people here feel Ottawa owes us that service from 1871 when British Columbia joined Canada under a promise of rail service to Victoria.
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rfaulks/pages/reprieve.html
http://www.trainweb.org/canadianrailways/articles/EsquimaltAndNanaimoRailway.htm

I'd offer the $1 myself, if I thought it would help. Reading those links, it doesn't sound like there is much likelyhood in the E & N having a very rosy future.[:(]. Is VIA's Dayliner the RDC's mentioned on the E & N site?

[nanaimo73]

Yes. VIA calls it the "Malahat", and they use CN practice of calling it a Railiner. Most of the people that live here call it the Dayliner, which is the CP term. BC Rail and the Alaska RR also called it a Dayliner. "Budd car" or "RDC" are also used here.

[Murphy Siding]

Did the FT demonstrator model, #103 ever test on Canadian Roads? I believe that CN had a viable diesel road freight unit back in the 20's. When did dieselization get a good start? Did Canadan dieselization mirror that in the US, switchers,then passenger trains, followed by road freight with FT units?

[jchnhtfd]

CN did have a road diesel in the 20s. How viable it really was is open to question, as it was a bit of a maintenance nightmare, but it did run for quite a while -- first as two permanently coupled units, and then split into two separate locomotives. But in general dieselization did follow the US model, although perhaps a little later all around.

[Anonymous]

Don't forget in Nova Scotia, The Cape Breton and Northern Nova Scotia Railway and the Windsor and Hantsport Railway. The CB&NS shares a Swing Bridge with part of the Trans Canada Highway, crossing the Strait of Canso. If your interested in looking at above bridge just type Canso Causeway into any search engine

[BR60103]

Mr. Siding:
CPR Dieselisation was done primarily on a geographic basis from west to east. However (perennial however!) diesels were also put on passenger trains, from the top down, I think. The Canadian was Dieselised from its start in 54/55.
One loco bought in 37, a series of switchers from 43, then road diesels in 1949.
CN and CP didn't buy any F units earlier than F3s in 1948. Don't know about the demonstrators.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BR60103

Mr. Siding:
CPR Dieselisation was done primarily on a geographic basis from west to east. However (perennial however!) diesels were also put on passenger trains, from the top down, I think. The Canadian was Dieselised from its start in 54/55.
One loco bought in 37, a series of switchers from 43, then road diesels in 1949.
CN and CP didn't buy any F units earlier than F3s in 1948. Don't know about the demonstrators.

Interesting. Why west to east? I would think that most of the population, and most of the passenger trains would have been in the east.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by KevinRC

Don't forget in Nova Scotia, The Cape Breton and Northern Nova Scotia Railway and the Windsor and Hantsport Railway. The CB&NS shares a Swing Bridge with part of the Trans Canada Highway, crossing the Strait of Canso. If your interested in looking at above bridge just type Canso Causeway into any search engine

I think I've read where the CB&NS was somewhat famous for having Montreal built Alcos?

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Did the FT demonstrator model, #103 ever test on Canadian Roads? I believe that CN had a viable diesel road freight unit back in the 20's. When did dieselization get a good start? Did Canadan dieselization mirror that in the US, switchers,then passenger trains, followed by road freight with FT units?

Murphy, I don't believe that the FT demonstrated in Canada. One thing to remember is that Canada declared war on Germany in September 1939 and so all their industries began war production at that time. Except for CN's experimental boxcabs and excluding the GTW , the CN did not receive any diesels until 1946 when they made a small purchase of NW2 switchers. CN started road diesels with 6 F3s in 1948, but did follow up until 1951.
CP received a handful of Alco S2s during the war, and bought a few more after the war. You have to remember that GMD, MLW, and CLC didn't start building diesel locomotives until 1950-51, except for a small batch of Whitcomb 70T switchers assembled by CLC.

[mhurley87f]

Single Line Tokens / Train Staffs

Did any Canadian Railway adopt the practice of controlling Single Line working by interlocking signals and points, and the issue of Single Line Tokens to trains authorised to enter a single line section?

In different forms, it's still in widespread use in the UK, and I seem to recall seeing this method of working in films of other Commonwealth countries, but was this ever adopted in Canada?

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mhurley87f

Did any Canadian Railway adopt the practice of controlling Single Line working by interlocking signals and points, and the issue of Single Line Tokens to trains authorised to enter a single line section?

I believe I read staffs were used on the Canadian Pacific for the bridge crossing the Ottawa River between Ottawa and Hull, Quebec.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by mhurley87f

Did any Canadian Railway adopt the practice of controlling Single Line working by interlocking signals and points, and the issue of Single Line Tokens to trains authorised to enter a single line section?

I believe I read staffs were used on the Canadian Pacific for the bridge crossing the Ottawa River between Ottawa and Hull, Quebec.

Wow! There's that language comprehension thing again, except in stereo![;)] Could a Canadian or a Brit please explain this to this dumb American? Thanks

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by mhurley87f

Single Line Tokens / Train Staffs

Did any Canadian Railway adopt the practice of controlling Single Line working by interlocking signals and points, and the issue of Single Line Tokens to trains authorised to enter a single line section?

I believe I read staffs were used on the Canadian Pacific for the bridge crossing the Ottawa River between Ottawa and Hull, Quebec.

Wow! There's that language comprehension thing again, except in stereo![;)] Could a Canadian or a Brit please explain this to this dumb American? Thanks

I don't know the details but I did see it on the telly[;)] once being used in India. It is explained in one of my 150+ Branchline magazines and I've started looking for it. It was indeed used by the CPR to cross the Ottawa River.
A member of the crew would take this baton thing out of a box on one end of the bridge and carry it over to the other side onboard the train. All signals would read stop until the staff was placed in the box on the other side. CP did use it at several places across Canada.
http://www.railways.incanada.net/circle/findings8.html

[Anonymous]

So what shortlines belong to CN? CN is my favorite railroad, but I don't know much about it, so please help me out with this. Thanks!

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by be_random1991

So what shortlines belong to CN? CN is my favorite railroad, but I don't know much about it, so please help me out with this. Thanks!

I can't think of any shortlines that are owned by CN. They did own the Canada and Gulf Terminal Railway in eastern Quebec at one time. They have purchased regionals like BC Rail and have assimilated them. In the USA they own regionals DM&IR and B&LE and will probably assimilate them.
Follow up questions are welcome.