Canadian Railways Operations

[ShaunCN]

Ontario northalnd still going, Algoma Central, lots of shortlines. VIA Rail..... heck we even got the CSX canada division here. lots of others too.

[trainboyH16-44]

There was the Algoma Central, taken over by the WC, now CN, the Toronto Hamilton and Buffalo, joint owned by CP and NYC, now CP, they had the first GMD london diesel, a GP7, the Northern Alberta Railways, owned by CP and CN, then CP sold it's shares, The Canadian National was formed from the fruitless competition of the Grand Trunk Western and the Canadian Northern railways, they were forced to merge. There were quite a few in the early days that I don't know, and probably a few more modern ones.
One railway that exists today is the Ontario Northland, which CN tried to buy in 2002, or close to then. It is the only remaining government owned railway since CN has been privatized, and BC Rail bought by CN. Stupid CN....
Matthew

[trainboyH16-44]

Whoops, beaten! ShaunCN, I'm pretty sure that the ACR was bought out by the WC a few years back, a couple years before they got taken by CN.
There are also a bunch of shortlines in the northern western provinces, and the eastern provinces.
Matthew

[BR60103]

Look for the book "Lines of Country", came out about 5 years ago. An historic atlas of Canadian rail lines, with all the stretches of track marked showing original owner and subsequent owners up to abandonment.
Just listing all the local lines would take pages. CN was made from Grand Trunk, Canadian Northern, Canadian Government, Great Western, and those were made from smaller lines.
The one I mourn is the Ontario and Quebec, which was leased and stripped by CPR and ended up with no track and no rolling stock, just a shell.

[trainboyH16-44]

When did that happen?
Matt

[mloik]

Current shortlines include among others Goderich-Exeter Railway, Southern Ontario Railway, and Ottawa Valley Railway (all part of RailAmerica's system). Then there's also Barrie-Collingwood, which if I understand correctly, rose out of the ashes of a need for rail service years after abandonment of "non-profit sectors" (meaning abandonment of rail service to real, live, small towns where people actually live and work) by CN and CP.

Of course, these are only a small slice of current rail operations in Ontario (and not fallen flags), so it would be great for this thread to continue with input from others throughout Canada.

Glad to see that Hockey Night in Canada will be back this year, eh?

Michael

[jchnhtfd]

Oh dear -- my references are at home. There's a dozen or so just in southern Ontario, depending on how far back you go... I'll get back on this.

[TH&B]

Go back to the National Transcontinental Railway and the Intercolonial Railway and the Grand Trunk Pacific.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ShaunCN

Ontario northalnd still going, Algoma Central, lots of shortlines. VIA Rail..... heck we even got the CSX canada division here. lots of others too.

I thought I understood that the Algoma Central was gone. A tourist train operator in N.W. Iowa has some old,beat AC passenger cars

[selector]

Dozens, literally. Edmonton, Yukon & Pacific, Calgary and Edmonton, Edmonton and Slave Lake RR, Alberta Midland, Alberta & Great Waterways, the Edmonton, Dunvegan and British Columbia/Central Canada Railway, Pacific Great Eastern, Lacombe and North-Western, the Kettle Valley Railway, the Vancouver, Victoria & Eastern, the Southern Okanagan RR Co., the Peace & Nass River Railway Co., and my source goes on to list another 100 or so, all west of Winnipeg.

[siberianmo]

[2c] My thoughts on the subject:

While it may be argued that only CP and CN represent Canada and everything else sort of fell in here or there, some there were (and are) other roads, even if subsidies of the "giants," their flags no longer fly. Here a but a few .....

The Dominion Atlantic (Land of the Evangeline Route). Herald last seen on the tenders of D10s and G2s.

Newfoundland Railway. Formal abandonment occured at mdnight on Oct 1st, 1998. First spike removed on Oct 12th, 1988 signifying the end of an era.

Alma & Jonquieres of Quebec, Canada. Reporting marks eliminated in Apr 1974.

Grand River Railway of Ontario, Canada. Passenger ops ceased on Apr 23rd, 1955 with freights ending on Oct 1st, 1961.

London & Port Stanley Railway of Ontario, Canada. Passenger service was discontinued in 1957. Ended independent ops in 1966

Northern Alberta Railways. Ceased independent ops in 1981.

In response to a previous Post: And as much as I dearly love to travel aboard VIA Rail. Are they really a railroad, or simply a rail user [?] If they own trackage and rights-of-way, I suppose the term, "railroad" would fit.

[Anonymous]

Why don;t you go to the Railway Association of Canada website or pick up a Canadian Trackside Guide to check out the exhaustive listings of every railway in Canada.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BR60103

Look for the book "Lines of Country", came out about 5 years ago. An historic atlas of Canadian rail lines, with all the stretches of track marked showing original owner and subsequent owners up to abandonment.
Just listing all the local lines would take pages. CN was made from Grand Trunk, Canadian Northern, Canadian Government, Great Western, and those were made from smaller lines.
The one I mourn is the Ontario and Quebec, which was leased and stripped by CPR and ended up with no track and no rolling stock, just a shell.

Thanks. That sounds like a book I'd enjoy.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by NARguy

Why don;t you go to the Railway Association of Canada website or pick up a Canadian Trackside Guide to check out the exhaustive listings of every railway in Canada.

Thanks. I never thought of that. Just look at all the time I'll save by not having to read the thoughts of railfans, Canadian and otherwise, on this message board[:p]!

[espeefoamer]

There's Quebec Central,owned by CP.Also Cartier Railway and Quebec North Shore and Labrador,and the Arnaud railway.These last three are iron ore haulers.

[ShaunCN]

i knew that the Algoma Central had been taken over by WC.

[morseman]

LINES OF COUNTRY: An Atlas of Railway and Waterway
History in Canada.
Well bound hard cover 12"x16" {rinterd by The Boston Mills Press
Author: Christopher Andreae
Cartography: Geoffrey Matthews
Design: Mark Fram
Copyright 1997
Distributed in the U.S.A. by General Distribution Services Inc.
85 River rock Drive, Suite 202, Buffalo, NY. 14207
Toll Free 1-800-895-1083 Fax [phone]
E-mail: [e-mail]
Cost $75 U>S>
Don't know what price is in Canada (around $95.00
my son gave this great volume to me at Christmas
and of course inked out the Cdn. price
If yIf you are looking for Canadian fallen flags, this is the
book Even shows some interesting industrieal
lines etc. such as the St.Jean Dieu line from the StLawrence
River in Montreal to the StJean Dieu mental hospital
and also a picture of the St,Vincent sw Paul Penitentiary
near Montreal with a picture of prisoners chained to
a car transporting them to a rock quary.

Maps are shown by provinces from the inception to 1997
with four or five maps per Province. Rail lines are indicated
by numbers, and you have to look up the index at the rear to
trace the fallen flags etc. Maps also of major Cdn. Cities.

Also listed are waterways and streetcar lines.

A definite must for anyone interested in Canadian History
and railroads in particular.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by morseman

LINES OF COUNTRY: An Atlas of Railway and Waterway
History in Canada.
Well bound hard cover 12"x16" {rinterd by The Boston Mills Press
Author: Christopher Andreae
Cartography: Geoffrey Matthews
Design: Mark Fram
Copyright 1997
Distributed in the U.S.A. by General Distribution Services Inc.
85 River rock Drive, Suite 202, Buffalo, NY. 14207
Toll Free 1-800-895-1083 Fax [phone]
E-mail: [e-mail]
Cost $75 U>S>
Don't know what price is in Canada (around $95.00
my son gave this great volume to me at Christmas
and of course inked out the Cdn. price
If yIf you are looking for Canadian fallen flags, this is the
book Even shows some interesting industrieal
lines etc. such as the St.Jean Dieu line from the StLawrence
River in Montreal to the StJean Dieu mental hospital
and also a picture of the St,Vincent sw Paul Penitentiary
near Montreal with a picture of prisoners chained to
a car transporting them to a rock quary.

Maps are shown by provinces from the inception to 1997
with four or five maps per Province. Rail lines are indicated
by numbers, and you have to look up the index at the rear to
trace the fallen flags etc. Maps also of major Cdn. Cities.

Also listed are waterways and streetcar lines.

A definite must for anyone interested in Canadian History
and railroads in particular.

Thank you very much for the info.[:)]

[BR60103]

Amendment to Siberianmo:
GRR was CPR subsidiary, linked with Lake Erie and Northern. Date given was abandonment of Electric freight service. Line continued running with CPR diesels, but was gradually cut back, now running from CPR in Galt to CNR in Kitchener.

[andrewjonathon]

A well known shortline that operates into Canada is the White Pass & Yukon. While it doesn't haul any freight these days, I think it is interesting because it is one of the few shortlines that operates between two countries.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ShaunCN

i knew that the Algoma Central had been taken over by WC.

If WC is gone now, is there an Algoma Central?

[trainboyH16-44]

Nope, it's CN, but do they still operate with AC equiptment? I hear that they are powering some trains with CN SD7-Is.
Matthew

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by morseman

LINES OF COUNTRY: An Atlas of Railway and Waterway
History in Canada.
Well bound hard cover 12"x16" {rinterd by The Boston Mills Press
Author: Christopher Andreae
Cartography: Geoffrey Matthews
Design: Mark Fram
Copyright 1997
Distributed in the U.S.A. by General Distribution Services Inc.
85 River rock Drive, Suite 202, Buffalo, NY. 14207
Toll Free 1-800-895-1083 Fax [phone]
E-mail: [e-mail]
Cost $75 U>S>
Don't know what price is in Canada (around $95.00
my son gave this great volume to me at Christmas
and of course inked out the Cdn. price
If yIf you are looking for Canadian fallen flags, this is the
book Even shows some interesting industrieal
lines etc. such as the St.Jean Dieu line from the StLawrence
River in Montreal to the StJean Dieu mental hospital
and also a picture of the St,Vincent sw Paul Penitentiary
near Montreal with a picture of prisoners chained to
a car transporting them to a rock quary.

Maps are shown by provinces from the inception to 1997
with four or five maps per Province. Rail lines are indicated
by numbers, and you have to look up the index at the rear to
trace the fallen flags etc. Maps also of major Cdn. Cities.

Also listed are waterways and streetcar lines.

A definite must for anyone interested in Canadian History
and railroads in particular.

I found this book on a used book website. Price was $1599.99!!!!![(-D]. Now, that must be one excellent book![;)]. Oh, and they could ship in only 2-3 days![:0]

[morseman]

Gee, I'm sorry to all of you for all the minutia I gave about this book.
just a few more items I missed 227 pages Loads of black &
white photos. An example of the maps (plates is for the province
of Quebec 1) southern Quebec to 1863, 2) southern Quebec
to 1882 3) southern Quebec to 1897 4 southern Quebec
to 1917 5) southern Quebec to 1992 6 northwestern
Quebec to 1992
Beginning of book gives detailed history of such things as
railway construction, namely: track, route survey, subgrade,
structurerail, ties,ballast, fasteningsswitches and crossings,
special type of track, curved track, non standard gauge,
freight and passenger yards, electric ry. track, construction
techniques, maintenance, track standards


similar items give a comprehensive detail of buildings,
signals, bridges, ferries, tunnels.

Doubt if I'd pay $1600. for this book (couldn't afford it.)
But I wouldn't sell my copy for that amount.

I hope they come up with an update every ten years of so.

[morseman]

TO: TRAINBOY

just reading again the price you were quoted for this book
$1600/ for a second hand book. It's a great book
but I'd say that price is out of line. I wouldn't sell mine
as it was a gift from my son try calling the numbers
I mentioned for a new copy from the publishers or continue
looking elsewhere.

[Murphy Siding]

morseman: You might have a family heirloom there. Three used book websites list the used price as $1599.99, $1600, and $1760. All I can do is laugh![(-D] Be sure to put that book in the safe at night![:)]

[BR60103]

How much for autographed and in the canvas bag? My wife bought it for Christmas a few years ago.
I better get it insured.

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Today, I saw a BC Rail car here in town. BC Rail would definitely qualify as a fallen flag. Like most Americans, I picture Canada as only having two railroads,CN and CP. What can you guys up north tell us about other Canadian railroads, and Canadian fallen flags?

This is an interesting thread. It is great to read the thoughts of Forum members from all across Canada.

I got my 1955 Atlas out to see what has changed. Canada’s westernmost Railway has always been the White Pass and Yukon. This former 110 mile 3’ Railway was built between 1898 and 1900. The mine at Faro, the Railway’s largest shipper, closed in 1982 forcing the closure of the Railway. The WP&Y has been revived as a summer tourist railway, but operates mostly in Alaska.
Website-
http://www.whitepassfan.net/whitepass/home/html/index.php  
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locThumbs.aspx?id=469  

Here on Vancouver Island was the 200 mile Esquimalt and Nanaimo Division of the Canadian Pacific. The E&N became part of the CPR during 1905, and was the first Division of the CPR to be completely dieselized in 1948.This was accomplished with a fleet of 13 Baldwin DRS 4-4-100 road switchers. The E&N was sold to Railamerica back in the 1990s. A couple of years ago the Pulp and Paper mill over in Port Alberni switched to trucks making the new E&N uneconomic. At this time plans are under way for a consortium of local governments to purchase the line. Via Rail’s Dayliner continues to make a daily round trip over the 140 mile line between Victoria and Courtenay.
http://yardlimit.railfan.net/baldwindiesels/by-map/canada.html  
http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/Various/earlydiesels2.htm  
http://www.railamerica.com/railmaps/ENRR.htm  
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locThumbs.aspx?id=162057  

The British Columbia Electric Company operated an extensive interurban-style railway in the Vancouver area, which became the B.C. Hydro Railway. This Railway has been sold off and is now the Southern Railway of British Columbia, owned by the Washington Corporation (Montana Rail Link).
http://www.sryraillink.com/  
http://www.trainweb.org/rosters/SRY.html  

The Great Northern Railway also operated into Vancouver and had other lines in British Columbia and Manitoba.
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=144982  

Canada’s best known fallen flag has got to be the British Columbia Railway, which is now part of Canadian National. Before 1972 this was the Pacific Great Eastern.
http://algomacentral.railfan.net/BCR.htm  
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locoList.aspx?id=BCOL  
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locoList.aspx?id=PGE  
http://www.theexplorationplace.com/pge.shtml  

Next door in the Province of Alberta was the Northern Alberta Railway. As previously mentioned, it was owned jointly by the CPR and the CNR for many years. On January 1st, 1981 it was merged into Canadian National. I am one of the few people to ride a NAR passenger train into Vancouver. Well, not really, but I like to say that. During December of 1988 I rode Via’s Continental from Winnipeg to Vancouver. One of our locomotives was ailing, so a CN GP9 was placed on the front. This was a former NAR unit still in NAR paint.
Some of the former NAR tract is now operated by Railnet.
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locThumbs.aspx?id=162779  

Two other fallen flags in Alberta would be the Great Slave Lake Railway and the Alberta Resources Railway. Both were built by governments to open up northern areas for development. Both were operated by CN and were not independant railroads.
http://railways-atlas.tapor.ualberta.ca/cocoon/atlas/Chapters-13-1/  
http://railways-atlas.tapor.ualberta.ca/cocoon/atlas/Chapters-13-2/  

Next is the Province of Manitoba, which includes the important rail center of Winnipeg. Manitoba’s fallen flags are the Great Northern and the Northern Pacific. Both of these American railways had lines up to Winnipeg and to the west in wheat country. The Greater Winnipeg Water District Railway operates about 90 miles of line running east from Winnipeg.
http://www.winnipeg.ca/waterandwaste/dept/railway.stm  
http://alcoworld.railfan.net/gwwd.htm  

The 5th Province over is Ontario.The Algoma Central is one of Ontario’s fallen flags, and had one of my favorite paint schemes.
http://algomacentral.railfan.net/algoma1.htm  

A bit further east is the Ontario Northland, which was almost sold to Canadian National. I would not be surprised if it does become part of CN in the future.
http://www.ontc.on.ca/english/index.html  
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locThumbs.aspx?id=161887  

The southern part of Ontario had several American lines which are now fallen flags. The Pere Marquette became part of the C&O which became part of the Chessie System. The Wabash also had a line across southern Ontario which became the N&W. Another line was the Michigan Central, New York Central, Penn Central and then Conrail. The already mentioned Toronto, Hamilton and Buffalo added to the diversity in the land of Andrew, AKA Junctionfan.
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locoList.aspx?id=THB  
http://collections.ic.gc.ca/wentworth/thb.htm  

The next Province is Quebec. The New York Central and the Delaware and Hudson both operated into the City of Montréal. A fallen flag in this area is the Montreal and Southern Counties.
http://www.trainweb.org/elso/msc.htm  

A bit further to the east was the Quebec Central, another CPR subsidiary. CP abandoned the QC several years ago, but it is slowly being resurrected.
http://www.rinbad.demon.co.uk/ca_qcr.htm  
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locThumbs.aspx?id=162235  

Northern Quebec has the Roberval and Saguenay, and had the Alma and Jonquieres.
http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/shortlines/RS.htm  

Straddling the Quebec-New Brunswick border was the Temiscouata Railway, which was taken over by Canadian National in 1950.
http://www.theboykos.com/railhistory/temi/

Two American fallen flags, the Maine Central and the Bangor and Aroostook, crossed into New Brunswick from Maine.

Prince Edward Island had a network of track which was operated by Canadian National. The light rail on the Island limited power to 70 toners, the only GE’s I like.
http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/Various/earlydiesels2.htm  

The Province of Nova Scotia had a few railways serving coal mines. One of these was the Sydney and Louisburg Railway, later known as the Devco Railway.
http://fortress.uccb.ns.ca/historic/s_l.html  

There was also the Cumberland Coal Company and the nearby Maritime Coal Railway.
http://www.littletechshoppe.com/ns1625/railways.html  

The best known fallen flag in Nova Scotia would be the Dominion Atlantic, which was leased to the CPR.
http://www.trainweb.org/canadianrailways/articles/DominionAtlanticRailway.html  

The Province of Newfoundland was crossed by the narrow gauge Newfoundland Railway. It was operated by the CNR after Newfoundland became part of Canada in 1949. CN turned it into a semi independent subsidiary in later years, under the name Terra Transport.
http://home.thezone.net/~sharvey/nfrail.htm  
http://www.heritage.nf.ca/society/railway.html

[BudKarr]

I would just like to say that the effort put forth by "nanaimo73" surely has to be one of the benefits from frequenting forums such as this one on "trains." No nonsense, no immaturity and certainly no "run for the numbers count." The people at Kalmbach hopefully recognize this type of excellence.

Kudos to you, Sir! A well done and well thought out submission that should either be copied into print form or bookmarked for those who follow the subject matter.

BK

[Murphy Siding]

Dale: thanks for a *brief* look at Canadian fallen flags. I didn't see mention of Grand Trunk (Western), is it now fully absorbed into CP or CN?

[nanaimo73]

Thanks Bud.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Dale: thanks for a *brief* look at Canadian fallen flags. I didn't see mention of Grand Trunk (Western), is it now fully absorbed into CP or CN?

Murphy,
I was just looking at lines in Canada that disappeared in the last 50 years. None of the 4 or 5 Grand Trunks fit thay category.
The first Grand Trunk was our first big system, and it probably had about 2,000 miles of track in Quebec and Ontario. It also reached Portland, Maine and Chicago. It was British owned and today forms the eastern heart of CN.
The federal government around 1905 (?) talked the GT into building to the west coast to compete with the CPR. This was the Grand Trunk Pacific, and reached from Winnipeg to Prince Rupert. The goverment built a line from the east coast (Moncton) to Winnipeg to connect the two Grand Trunks. This was the National Transcontenential Railway. The GTP went bankrupt, which dragged the Grand Trunk into bankruptcy as well. Both the GT and the GTW became part of CN around 1922.
The Grand Trunk Corporation was, and probably still is, the name for all of CN's lines in the USA.
The biggest of these was the Grand Trunk Western, which was mostly in Michigan, and reached Chicago through Indiana, and also reached Milwaukee by barge. GTW bought the DT&I and the D&TSL to reach Toledo and Cincinnati.
GTC also owned the Duluth, Winnipeg and Pacific, the Central Vermont and the Minnesota and Manitoba Railroad.
The lines to Massena, New York, and Portland, Maine would have been Grand Trunk.
Grand Trunk Corporation almost bought the Milwaukee Road during 1982.
I am not sure if CN's former Illinois Central, the DM&IR and Wisconsin Central are part of GTC.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

Thanks Bud.
Perhaps "almost no nonsense" would be more accurate.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Dale: thanks for a *brief* look at Canadian fallen flags. I didn't see mention of Grand Trunk (Western), is it now fully absorbed into CP or CN?

Murphy,
I was just looking at lines in Canada that disappeared in the last 50 years. None of the 4 or 5 Grand Trunks fit thay category.
The first Grand Trunk was our first big system, and it probably had about 2,000 miles of track in Quebec and Ontario. It also reached Portland, Maine and Chicago. It was British owned and today forms the eastern heart of CN.
The federal government around 1905 (?) talked the GT into building to the west coast to compete with the CPR. This was the Grand Trunk Pacific, and reached from Winnipeg to Prince Rupert. The goverment built a line from the east coast (Moncton) to Winnipeg to connect the two Grand Trunks. This was the National Transcontenential Railway. The GTP went bankrupt, which dragged the Grand Trunk into bankruptcy as well. Both the GT and the GTW became part of CN around 1922.
The Grand Trunk Corporation was, and probably still is, the name for all of CN's lines in the USA.
The biggest of these was the Grand Trunk Western, which was mostly in Michigan, and reached Chicago through Indiana, and also reached Milwaukee by barge. GTW bought the DT&I and the D&TSL to reach Toledo and Cincinnati.
GTC also owned the Duluth, Winnipeg and Pacific, the Central Vermont and the Minnesota and Manitoba Railroad.
The lines to Massena, New York, and Portland, Maine would have been Grand Trunk.
Grand Trunk Corporation almost bought the Milwaukee Road during 1982.
I am not sure if CN's former Illinois Central, the DM&IR and Wisconsin Central are part of GTC.

You're saying that GTW is still alive and well? I thought it disappeared into CN like WC, IC, and DMIR?

[nanaimo73]

I was talking (posting ?) about the legal ownership. I believe all of CN's US lines would fall under the Grand Trunk Corporation, which is owned by CN.
It is not something that I've been paying attention to.
Anyone out there know what the ownership is now ?



Maps of Canada-

http://www.proximityissues.ca/english/maps1.cfm  

http://railways-atlas.tapor.ualberta.ca/cocoon/atlas/  

http://www.niagararails.com/maps.shtml  

http://www.trainscan.com/data/maps.html  

http://atlas.gc.ca/site/english/maps/archives/3rdedition/economic/transportationandcommunications/083  

http://www.canadiangeographic.ca/atlas/intro.aspx?lang=En  

http://www.mapquest.com/  

http://www.railroaddata.com/cgi-bin/links/search.cgi?query=canada&mh=25&type=keyword&bool=and  

http://maps.google.com/

[Murphy Siding]

There is no Grand Trunk in Canada? Only in the US?

[Murphy Siding]

Dale: your posts to to emphasize how little most of us *down here* know about Canadian railroads.[*^_^*]. I know that CN is bigger than CP, but after that, who's next as far as size?

Thanks

[tatans]

Many (Real) Canadians still say eh ! ! it's the equivalent of U.S. ("huh!!) the younger generation here speak U.S. television advertising English and will in the next generation speak only ''American" It's not "aye" it's eh, like the letter A. ----- And by the way, it's "Railway" in Canada, not Railroad, there is a big difference in the two.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tatans

Many (Real) Canadians still say eh ! ! it's the equivalent of U.S. ("huh!!) the younger generation here speak U.S. television advertising English and will in the next generation speak only ''American" It's not "aye" it's eh, like the letter A. ----- And by the way, it's "Railway" in Canada, not Railroad, there is a big difference in the two.

I fixed the spelling in my post after nanaimo73 corrected me....eh! What is the difference between "railroad" and "railway"?

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

I am not sure if CN's former Illinois Central, the DM&IR and Wisconsin Central are part of GTC.

Grand Trunk Corporation exists as the US holding company for CN's US lines. Within this holding company are 5 subsidiaries, Illinois Central, Grand Trunk Western, Wisconsin Central, Duluth Missabe & Iron Range, And Bessemer & Lake Erie. CN must have a separate US subsidiary for its US lines for Tax and STB purposes. I am not sure what has happened to the M&M but I do know that it doesn't have any Operating Department employees all train crews are Canadians.

CP is a similar situation, its holding company is the Soo Line Corporation, which has 2 subsidiaries, the Soo Line Railroad, and the Delaware & Hudson Railroad.

So if anybody asks how many Class I railroads there are in the US, the correct answer is
seven. UP, BNSF, NS, CSX, KCS, GTC, and SLC.

[morseman]

an interesting fallen flag ry was the Ottawa-Arnprior-Parry sound Ry.built by lumber baron,
J.R.Booth in the late 1800's. It went thru Ontario's Algonquin Provincial Park, with
a large roundhouse at Madawaska. (believe had stalls for about 15 iron horses.
The round house was torn down in 1994.

An interesting web site on Eastern Ontario railways from 1847-2005 is
http://www.railways.incanada.net/candate/ottawa.htm
This site lists many fallen flags and many railway milestones in
eastern Ontario.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by beaulieu

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

I am not sure if CN's former Illinois Central, the DM&IR and Wisconsin Central are part of GTC.

Grand Trunk Corporation exists as the US holding company for CN's US lines. Within this holding company are 5 subsidiaries, Illinois Central, Grand Trunk Western, Wisconsin Central, Duluth Missabe & Iron Range, And Bessemer & Lake Erie. CN must have a separate US subsidiary for its US lines for Tax and STB purposes. I am not sure what has happened to the M&M but I do know that it doesn't have any Operating Department employees all train crews are Canadians.

CP is a similar situation, its holding company is the Soo Line Corporation, which has 2 subsidiaries, the Soo Line Railroad, and the Delaware & Hudson Railroad.

So if anybody asks how many Class I railroads there are in the US, the correct answer is
seven. UP, BNSF, NS, CSX, KCS, GTC, and SLC.

Thanks. That was interesting. [:)] I didn't know about the SLC either.[D)]

[andrewjonathon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Today, I saw a BC Rail car here in town. BC Rail would definitely qualify as a fallen flag. Like most Americans, I picture Canada as only having two railroads,CN and CP. What can you guys up north tell us about other Canadian railroads, and Canadian fallen flags?

Two other fallen flags in Alberta would be the Great Slave Lake Railway and the Alberta Resources Railway. Both were built by governments to open up northern areas for development.
http://railways-atlas.tapor.ualberta.ca/cocoon/atlas/Chapters-13-1/
http://railways-atlas.tapor.ualberta.ca/cocoon/atlas/Chapters-13-2/

I am curious should the Great Slave Lake Railway really be considered a fallen flag? I always thought it was owned and operated by CN until the late 1990s when it was purchased by Railink. I remember seeing pictures of the locomotives which I believe were yellow with a black CN noodle and the words "Great Slave Lake Railway" written underneath.

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by andrewjonathon

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Today, I saw a BC Rail car here in town. BC Rail would definitely qualify as a fallen flag. Like most Americans, I picture Canada as only having two railroads,CN and CP. What can you guys up north tell us about other Canadian railroads, and Canadian fallen flags?

Two other fallen flags in Alberta would be the Great Slave Lake Railway and the Alberta Resources Railway. Both were built by governments to open up northern areas for development.
http://railways-atlas.tapor.ualberta.ca/cocoon/atlas/Chapters-13-1/
http://railways-atlas.tapor.ualberta.ca/cocoon/atlas/Chapters-13-2/

I am curious should the Great Slave Lake Railway really be considered a fallen flag? I always thought it was owned and operated by CN until the late 1990s when it was purchased by Railink. I remember seeing pictures of the locomotives which I believe were yellow with a black CN noodle and the words "Great Slave Lake Railway" written underneath.

I don't believe it existed as a corporation. I think it was an early example of what is now known as an Internal Shortline. Where the parent company assigns dedicated power and local management is empowered to make decisions. It was primarily a single commodity carrier not directly connected to parent CN.

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Dale: your posts seem to emphasize how little most of us *down here* know about Canadian railroads.

I removed that stuff.

QUOTE: I know that CN is bigger than CP, but after that, who's next as far as size?

Ten years ago it went CNR-CPR-(VIA)-BCR-Ontario Northland-Algoma Central-QNS&L-Cartier (I believe).
Do you have the February 1999 Trains ? It has an article on Railink.
http://www.trainscan.com/hist/rl/

How big is your Trains collection ?

QUOTE: What is the difference between "railroad" and "railway"?

Railway is the Briti***erm which we prefer. (We also like paycheque, colour and centre.)

[jchnhtfd]

One of the more delightful things about many 'fallen flags' or just plain abandoned bits of track is that so many miles of them are open for folks to walk or ride on; unlike our friends to the south, it is rare for a line which has had the rails lifted to NOT turn into a hiking/riding/snowmobile or whatever path. Differences in ownership -- but it does make for some very nice trails!

(Might be unique to Ontario -- I'm not too sharp on the Prairie provinces, sorry... never mind Quebec!)

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Dale: your posts seem to emphasize how little most of us *down here* know about Canadian railroads.

I removed that stuff.

Dale: I wasn't picking at you. I find your posts very informative, and they do emphazsize that * I * know little about Canadian railroads. (Or Canadien Railways either, for that matter). [;)]. I think I can speak for most of us here, when I say that Trains.com forum gained something, and Birds.com(?) lost something when you decided to turn your attention toward trains agian.[:D]

As far as your other mention of losing the Canadian culture: Either I'm turning into my parents[:0], or we Americans are losing our culture to my kids' generation-DOOD![xx(]

[nanaimo73]

(Canadien is the french version of Canadian. CN put one on one side of their boxcars and the other on the other side.)

Two other fallen flags-CDAC and CAR, both on former CP lines east of Montreal.

[Murphy Siding]

I may need some language lessons.[:I]

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by siberianmo

In response to a previous Post: And as much as I dearly love to travel aboard VIA Rail. Are they really a railroad, or simply a rail user [?] If they own trackage and rights-of-way, I suppose the term, "railroad" would fit.

I believe they own 3 sections of former CN track in Ontario. One is east of Windsor, one is SW of Ottawa and the other is SE of Ottawa.


Murphy,
have you had any language troubles on the "British" thread ?

[Grinandbearit]

I have that book (Lines of Country) and I can't even imagine paying $500 for it let alone $1500 of $1600.It's a great source of information but $1600, no way!
Here in Eastern Ontario 125 years ago we had railways like the Napanee, Tamworth and Quebec which became the Kingston, Napanee & Western which in turn became the Bay of Quinte Railway and then disappeared into the CNoR and then into the CNR and that's the only way it ever got to Quebec!

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by siberianmo

In response to a previous Post: And as much as I dearly love to travel aboard VIA Rail. Are they really a railroad, or simply a rail user [?] If they own trackage and rights-of-way, I suppose the term, "railroad" would fit.

I believe they own 3 sections of former CN track in Ontario. One is east of Windsor, one is SW of Ottawa and the other is SE of Ottawa.


Murphy,
have you had any language troubles on the "British" thread ?

.......Well........yes[:I]

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

I may need some language lessons.[:I]

Remember that "icehockey" or "ice hockey" are not words spoken in Canada.
The correct word is "hockey" or "Hockey".[;)]

I found some more stuff you may enjoy-
http://www.railscanada.com/index2.shtml
I have not looked through it yet.
To answer your earlier question, I believe the third longest frieght railway in Canada would be the MacKenzie Northern.
http://www.railamerica.com/railmaps/MKNR.htm


Note to everyone else-
This thread is now about any railway topic in Canada.
Anyone have any questions they would like answered ?

[tatans]

Murphysiding:RE way-road--go to TRAINS forum, this very topic is under discussion.

[Murphy Siding]

I assume that you mean on this forum? I see that. It appears that the correct term for Canadian *train lines* would Railways. When in Rome, do as the Romans do.[:)]

[Murphy Siding]

We read about, and the luckier among us, see, American transcontinental trains zooming across the country.What about the Canadian transcontinentals? Where is most of their traffic coming from, and going to? Is there a *land bridge* type set-up, running containers from west cost to east coast?

Thanks

[BentnoseWillie]

QUOTE: Remember that "icehockey" or "ice hockey" are not words spoken in Canada.
The correct word is "hockey" or "Hockey".[;)]

So there I was, over in Paris
Eating wine and drinking cheese
And this guy comes up to me and he says
“Where are you from?”
Well, I says “Yeah, I’m from Canada”
And he says “Zut Alors, mon Dieu, you are from Canada? Do you play 'ockey?”
And I says “Do I play hockey?

Well, I play Air hockey, Ball hockey, Barn Hockey, Bubble Hockey
Field hockey, floor hockey, ice hockey, kitchen hockey
Road hockey,Roller hockey, Table hockey, Twist hockey
And I play
hockey, hockey, hockey, hockey, hockey, hockey, hockey, hockey,
hockey, hockey, hockey, hockey, hockey, hockey, hockey, hockey,
hockey, hockey, hockey, hockey, hockey, hockey, hockey, hockey,
Hockey all the time!

Jughead - "Hockey Song"

[;)]

[nanaimo73]

Trains Editor David P. Morgan wrote this 20 years ago to mark the Centennial of our last spike.

O Canada ! Oh Yes !
What can an American write about the railway scene in Canada that a Canadian has not already said ? He can set forth what railroading in that land means to us in the U.S. For it is what the Canadian assumes that awes us. Immensity, to begin with. More than 4000 route-miles, and a Sunday-to Friday train trip’s worth of immensity from Sydney, Nova Scotia, out to Vancouver, British Columbia, excluding off-shore railways of Newfoundland and Vancouver Island. To equal that journey here, you’d have to travel diagonally across the nation from northeast to southwest, say from Van Buren, Maine, to San Diego via Memphis.
And the Canadians crowned their achievement by unfurling a common banner over a true transcontinental line, as their anthem has it, From East to Western sea ! Imagine ! One name-Canadian Pacific Railway-on letterboards, locomotive tenders, conductors’ hats, tickets, from the St. Lawrence River to the Pacific Ocean . . . as of 9:30 a.m., November 7, 1885, when the final spike was driven home at Craigellachie, B.C. And they repeated the feat in 1923 when they welded all of their other trunk lines (“the polyglot inheritance”) into another and even longer coast-to coast property, Canadian National. None of your interchanges and gateways, rate-making regions and territorial fiefdoms, and run-throughs and “East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet” for the Canadians. Item: Toronto and Winnipeg have no TRRAs, no Union Railroads, no EJ&Es. What Official Guide reader wasn’t impressed by the fact that CP and CN each required four pages worth of maps to document lines and stations whereas the longest U.S. roads could cover theirs in two ?
Canada’s climate lends itself to latitude. The depth of Minnesota is sufficient to cover the maximum distance between the Canadian transcons (it occurs in Alberta) as they parallel one another from the Maritimes to Vancouver. As if our Great Northern and Northern Pacific had begun in Boston instead of St. Paul . . . and we’d left the rest of our land to the Mohawks and Seminoles and Navajos.
Of all lands, is there one more indebted to the mass-transportation bulk-commodity nature of railroading for realizing natural resources than Canada ? Ore, coal, grain, potash, sulphur, lumber-the nouns summon up panoramas of SD40’s and M636’s in full cry with box cars, covered hoppers, gons, bulkhead flats, open hoppers. Again the anthem: Where pine and maples grow, Great prairies spread and lordly rivers flow, How dear to us thy broad domain . . .
In a railway context, now, what does Canada connote to you ? The disparateness between a three-piece-suit commuter swinging aboard an every-20-minute GO Transit bilevel into Toronto and an Indian with arm raised at mile 278.6, Manitoba, flag stop for the triweekly Hudson Bay in adjacent provinces ? Perhaps the Quebec Bridge or the structure over the Saskatchewan River at Edmonton or the viaduct at Lethbridge, Alberta, or the arch at Stoney Creek, B.C. Uncountable nonrevenue miles of flangers bucking snowdrifts that send enough Canadians south each winter for Florida motels to fly the maple leaf on their flagpoles ? Prairies punctuated by grain elevator exclamation marks ? All the pleasant names, past and present-the Esquimalt & Nanaimos, the Pacific Great Easterns, Dominion Atlantics, and Temiscouatas ? Or the Spiral Tunnels, which is to say an underground Tehachapi in spades ?
Give my generation the Elesco closed-type feedwater heater. Carried ahead of the stack on the smokebox of seemingly everything worth a trailing truck and a few that were not, this tube-filled vessel was surely the locomotive signature of Canada. What better locale to preheat boiler water ? And what other auxiliary could have added so much authority to the helm of wheat extras and pool trains and the Dominion ? I delighted in these bundle-type heaters, whether frowning on the prototypes of the largest fleet of 4-8-4s in the Western Hemisphere, or countersunk on streamlined Selkirks, or worn like a bonnet on dainty Pacifics. They must have made Erie and T&P folk feel at home!
And after the Elesco, give me Frank L. Packard’s memorable, CP-influenced fiction about turn-of-the-century railroading in the mountains. Do you remember Superintendent Carleton and Master Mechanic Regan-and Spitzer, and the 1601? When I arrived in Field, B.C., in the cab of Selkirk 5927 in May 1950, their ghosts were there on the platform.
The idiosyncrasies intrigue. The two ingenious if inconclusive splurges with lightweight, low center-of-gravity passenger equipment, TurboTrain and LRC. The fact that CN fielded a two-unit road diesel in 1928 that could displace a 4-8-2 on an intercity limited. The intermodal mentality which enveloped telegraph and steamship and aircraft and truck and express and hotel under the same logo. (Try training, sailing, and flying Santa Fe, as thousands have CP.) The discrepancy, in their favor, between the mileage of US owned track in Canada and vice versa. Only three A1A-A1A passenger cab units in a country with just as much flat land as we’ve got. The international oddity of a nation crossed by parallel railways, one privately owned, the other public property. (How the Canadians must have smiled as we wrestled with the creation of Conrail and may now grin as we debate its disposition! Of course, we have had our moments, too, as VIA put on swaddling clothes.) The noble experiment of a high-pressure (up to 1750 pounds per square inch) 2-10-4, Angus-built CP T4a 8000. All that post-World War II railway building, without parallel south of the border, in Labrador and up to Great Slave Lake and throughout British Columbia. CN 4-6-4’s with awesome, asymmetric beer-barrel tenders. And yes, CP ten-wheelers imported from Scotland and Germany.
Royalty. One cannot discuss Canada absent royalty. The British Empire is gone, Canada is no longer a dominion, there is the Quebec issue, but the monarch still comes and is still conveyed by Royal Train even as her father and uncle were, as attested by those crowns on 4-6-4 running boards and by a photo of the princess climbing into the cab of CN U-1-e 4-8-2 6057.
O Canada! Oh yes! We Americans go and we keep going back across that frontier (“Guarded only by neighborly respect and honorable obligations,” as Churchill said) because Canadian trains are just like ours, only as different as Saskatoon and Spartanburg. Perhaps we traveled north at first because the Canadians were slower to discard steam, mixeds, branch lines, Morse, limiteds, and cabooses, but now we return to watch ‘em haul herculean loads across the Rockies, operate a passenger train 2887 miles between origin and destination, dispatch freights up to the 61st parallel in the Northwest Territories, and customize SD40-2s with safety cabs and SD50s with Draper tapers. We can touch the FM’s-C-liner and Train Master-that we were too blind to preserve. We can schedule ourselves behind F’s to a dock on Hudson Bay where one can board a ship for Europe, and into Montreal behind electrics so venerable (1914) that they were around a year after Rudolph Diesel drowned. And we can wait in waiting rooms of stations that look like stations.
O Canada! . . . keep thee steadfast thro’ the years.

[selector]

Too cool, by half. [8D][:D]

But, let us not forget that we used American-designed locomotives, if altered for our unique requirements. Sometime, SOMETIME... I'm gonna have a PRR J-1 on my layout.

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

We read about, and the luckier among us, see, American transcontinental trains zooming across the country.What about the Canadian transcontinentals? Where is most of their traffic coming from, and going to? Is there a *land bridge* type set-up, running containers from west cost to east coast?

Thanks

Murphy Siding what you would see running on the Canadian transcontinentals is very similar to what is running on the western US transcontinentals. Exactly what you would see depends on where you are at. For example if you were in the Frazier River canyon in Britisih Columbia you would see lots of Intermodal on both CN and CP. CN would have a mix of doublestacks and trailers while CP would only have doublestacks. CN would move one loaded and one empty coal train each way while CP would move 5 or 6 each way. Each would have one Potash and one Unit Sulphur train going to the ports. Each railway would have one manifest each way. How main grain trains are running depends on the season, in season figure 2 or 3 each way on each company. There would be a cut of autoracks on a couple of the Intermodals for each company. Now if you move further east to the middle of Saskatchewan the picture changes a bit. The traffic on both railways will be higher. CN would have a lot more carload traffic in the form of lumber coming from the forests of Northern BC, CP would also have more carload traffic but it wouldn't be as dominated by lumber. Somewhere between one third and one-half of the traffic on both railways will begin or end in the US. When the grain harvest begins in the Soo Line territory but before it begins in Canada it isn't uncommon for there to be more trains to or from the US than purely Canadian business on the CP main. CP can bridge 2 or 3 Grain trains per day from the Dakotas and Minnesota to the UP at Eastgate, ID combine this with Potash also going to the UP for Portland. Traffic on both railways thins out considerably north of Lake Superior, but picks up again in the Windsor - Montreal corridor

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by beaulieu

[

CN would have a lot more carload traffic in the form of lumber coming from the forests of Northern BC,

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

We read about, and the luckier among us, see, American transcontinental trains zooming across the country.What about the Canadian transcontinentals? Where is most of their traffic coming from, and going to? Is there a *land bridge* type set-up, running containers from west cost to east coast?
Thanks.

Canadian Pacific is something like what BN was, hauling a lot of bulk materials. CP's busiest line is between Vancouver and Golden, in British Columbia, hauling coal, grain, sulphur and pota***o the port of Vancouver to be shipped across the Pacific.
Canadian National is more like the ATSF was, with a lot of merchandise trains.
A lot of containers come into Canada at Vancouver and are carried by CN and CP to the USA (Chicago) or central Canada (Toronto). Montreal is the busiest eastern container port with CP and CN hauling the containers to the Toronto area or Chicago.
I don't think many containers cross Canada between the Pacific and the Atlantic.

[jchnhtfd]

nanaimo -- I'd forgotten that editorial. It's just... wonderful! In many many ways the Canadian Pacific made Canada a reality, and the story of the construction of that railroad is truly amazing. Both it and the CN (I still prefer Canadian National, but what the heck) are astonishing systems.

Canada is a great, great country with two great railraods tying it together. And with the CN now going to the Gulf of Mexico... think about it -- from the Atlantic to the Pacific; Hudson's Bay to the Gulf... tundra (I loved that photo in Trains of a sunrise at Churchill!) to Halifax...

Oh well..

O Canada!

[Murphy Siding]

Logic question ( it's a curse that my brain was hard wired for logic- the only noticeable outward trait is a mouth that's always saying hmmmm........?) : How do CN and CP compete with BNSF and UP in hauling container traffic from the west coast to Chicago? Wouldn't the Canadian routes be longer and more mountainous?

[BentnoseWillie]

Not really. I don't know the CP grades offhand, but I think CN's transcontinental ruling grade is around 1.5%, thanks to the sweat of surveyors and the dynamite of engineers. [:)]

CP has to go through the Kicking Horse, which is a stiffer grade. Even with the Spiral Tunnels, the old joke still applies that CP got the scenery, but CN got the grades.

[Anonymous]

A belated and deep thank-you to nanaimo. (Talk about a hot thread! Two days away and almost two pages slid by me.)

We are justifiably thrilled with nanaimo's selfless dedication to the forum. All the more so because I believe at one time nanaimo said he found Canadian RR's boring compared to US lines. He honors us. So please anyone help the guy if you can with any requests for info re the US lines. You may be bored with some domestic lines, but like nanaimo know how to find or already have superior knowledge to be shared.

Here in Chicago we have, I believe, six of the seven remaining Class One's. I have gotten way hot for the CP as of late and am really enjoying and appreciating and learning what's going on -- I'm a slow researcher but I feel linear progress and achievement and I wouldn't feel so happy without the generosity and sharing of nanaimo and so many others both here and around the world. All the more so because this is going on without hissy fits or anyone's trying to flaunt their allegedly superior world-view.

Thanks again Dale.

[nanaimo73]

Ack !
Thanks Allen, but if I was that smart, I'd have a signature on my posts by now.
[:I]

[jchnhtfd]

with regard to grades and operation from west coast ports to Chicago/Thunder Bay / Duluth/Superior, wherever -- it certainly is true that there is some mighty tall and spectacular scenery on both CP and CN, but the grades are quite comparable on the lines from Vancouver (and Prince Rupert) and the distances are, too.

[Anonymous]

Nanaimo, not only do I not know how to do an auto signature, I don't even know how to call up that white box that reiterates past postings. Something I keep promising myself to do.

Allen

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BentnoseWillie

Not really. I don't know the CP grades offhand, but I think CN's transcontinental ruling grade is around 1.5%, thanks to the sweat of surveyors and the dynamite of engineers. [:)]

CP has to go through the Kicking Horse, which is a stiffer grade. Even with the Spiral Tunnels, the old joke still applies that CP got the scenery, but CN got the grades.

The April 2004 issue of Trains Magazine features mountain railroads (railways) and is very good reading. Pages 48 and 49 describe the Canadian National and Canadian Pacific grade profiles from Winnipeg to Vancouver. Pages 74 through 81 describe the building of the Canadian Pacific and the Canadian Northern (now part of the Canadian National) in British Columbia. Pages 82 through 89 describe life at the last pusher station on the Canadian Pacific, at Rogers BC.
[:)]

[selector]

The locating engineers and division chiefs for the CPR were usually Americans, BTW.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Isambard

QUOTE: Originally posted by BentnoseWillie

Not really. I don't know the CP grades offhand, but I think CN's transcontinental ruling grade is around 1.5%, thanks to the sweat of surveyors and the dynamite of engineers. [:)]

CP has to go through the Kicking Horse, which is a stiffer grade. Even with the Spiral Tunnels, the old joke still applies that CP got the scenery, but CN got the grades.

The April 2004 issue of Trains Magazine features mountain railroads (railways) and is very good reading. Pages 48 and 49 describe the Canadian National and Canadian Pacific grade profiles from Winnipeg to Vancouver. Pages 74 through 81 describe the building of the Canadian Pacific and the Canadian Northern (now part of the Canadian National) in British Columbia. Pages 82 through 89 describe life at the last pusher station on the Canadian Pacific, at Rogers BC.
[:)]

I've read that too. That, and my perception ( or misperception? ) that it seems a lot longer from the west coast to Chicago by way of Canada, makes me wonder how CN & CP compete with BNSF & UP?
I saw mention that the traffic thins out on the eastern end of Canada. What makes up most of that traffic? It would seem that Great Lakes shipping would be a big competitor for a big portion of that freight?

[jchnhtfd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by selector

The locating engineers and division chiefs for the CPR were usually Americans, BTW.

Technically, quite true -- but they came to Canada and the CPR, and became Canadian (just like a whole lot of other immigrants) and put their hearts and souls into building that great railroad -- they thought of themselves as railroaders, first and foremost.

[Murphy Siding]

Dale ( in Nanaimo ): I've been reading the multitude of links you've posted. ( Imagine that[:)]) It appears that rail operations in your local area are somewhat in limbo? What is the long term plan for the line that the shortline operator had?

Thanks

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by Isambard

QUOTE: Originally posted by BentnoseWillie

Not really. I don't know the CP grades offhand, but I think CN's transcontinental ruling grade is around 1.5%, thanks to the sweat of surveyors and the dynamite of engineers. [:)]

CP has to go through the Kicking Horse, which is a stiffer grade. Even with the Spiral Tunnels, the old joke still applies that CP got the scenery, but CN got the grades.

The April 2004 issue of Trains Magazine features mountain railroads (railways) and is very good reading. Pages 48 and 49 describe the Canadian National and Canadian Pacific grade profiles from Winnipeg to Vancouver. Pages 74 through 81 describe the building of the Canadian Pacific and the Canadian Northern (now part of the Canadian National) in British Columbia. Pages 82 through 89 describe life at the last pusher station on the Canadian Pacific, at Rogers BC.
[:)]

I've read that too. That, and my perception ( or misperception? ) that it seems a lot longer from the west coast to Chicago by way of Canada, makes me wonder how CN & CP compete with BNSF & UP?
I saw mention that the traffic thins out on the eastern end of Canada. What makes up most of that traffic? It would seem that Great Lakes shipping would be a big competitor for a big portion of that freight?

Don't forget that it is the shipping company that determines where the container is landed. Not all companies serve all ports. Also where on the ship the container is loaded determines where it is unloaded. The majority of shipping companies serve Los Angeles/Long Beach as their first port of call after crossing the Pacific. They will unload the majority of their cargo there. They will not take on very many containers in LA. They then proceed north to either Seattle/Tacoma or Vancouver, rarely both. Here they will unload the remaining North America bound containers and all loads for Asia, and then fill the remaining spaces with empties. This is why both BNSF and UP run alot of baretables from the Pacific Northwest to LA. Business for Canada is sent to Vancouver to avoid having to pass through US Customs. US traffic unloaded through Vancouver moves in Bond across Canada and is inspected at either the border crossings Portal, ND or Ranier, MN or at Minneapolis or Chicago. The port of Vancouver can compete with Seattle/Tacoma due to capacity issues at
Seattle/Tacoma (port and railroad).

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Dale ( in Nanaimo ): I've been reading the multitude of links you've posted. ( Imagine that[:)]) It appears that rail operations in your local area are somewhat in limbo? What is the long term plan for the line that the shortline operator had?

Thanks

Railamerica has wanted to get out since the paper mill over in Port Alberni switched to Trucks. A group on the Island made up of local governments and First Nations (Native Bands, or Indian Tribes in the USA ?) want to buy the line. This may be for $1, with Railamerica getting some kind of donation tax credit. I really don't think there is enough traffic here for that. Perhaps just a local line here in Nanaimo handling propane could make it. The 140 miles from Victoria to Courtenay is mainly for VIA's Dayliner. That service does not make economic sense, but many people here feel Ottawa owes us that service from 1871 when British Columbia joined Canada under a promise of rail service to Victoria.
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rfaulks/pages/reprieve.html
http://www.trainweb.org/canadianrailways/articles/EsquimaltAndNanaimoRailway.htm

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Dale ( in Nanaimo ): I've been reading the multitude of links you've posted. ( Imagine that[:)]) It appears that rail operations in your local area are somewhat in limbo? What is the long term plan for the line that the shortline operator had?

Thanks

Railamerica has wanted to get out since the paper mill over in Port Alberni switched to Trucks. A group on the Island made up of local governments and First Nations (Native Bands, or Indian Tribes in the USA ?) want to buy the line. This may be for $1, with Railamerica getting some kind of donation tax credit. I really don't think there is enough traffic here for that. Perhaps just a local line here in Nanaimo handling propane could make it. The 140 miles from Victoria to Courtenay is mainly for VIA's Dayliner. That service does not make economic sense, but many people here feel Ottawa owes us that service from 1871 when British Columbia joined Canada under a promise of rail service to Victoria.
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rfaulks/pages/reprieve.html
http://www.trainweb.org/canadianrailways/articles/EsquimaltAndNanaimoRailway.htm

I'd offer the $1 myself, if I thought it would help. Reading those links, it doesn't sound like there is much likelyhood in the E & N having a very rosy future.[:(]. Is VIA's Dayliner the RDC's mentioned on the E & N site?

[nanaimo73]

Yes. VIA calls it the "Malahat", and they use CN practice of calling it a Railiner. Most of the people that live here call it the Dayliner, which is the CP term. BC Rail and the Alaska RR also called it a Dayliner. "Budd car" or "RDC" are also used here.

[Murphy Siding]

Did the FT demonstrator model, #103 ever test on Canadian Roads? I believe that CN had a viable diesel road freight unit back in the 20's. When did dieselization get a good start? Did Canadan dieselization mirror that in the US, switchers,then passenger trains, followed by road freight with FT units?

[jchnhtfd]

CN did have a road diesel in the 20s. How viable it really was is open to question, as it was a bit of a maintenance nightmare, but it did run for quite a while -- first as two permanently coupled units, and then split into two separate locomotives. But in general dieselization did follow the US model, although perhaps a little later all around.

[Anonymous]

Don't forget in Nova Scotia, The Cape Breton and Northern Nova Scotia Railway and the Windsor and Hantsport Railway. The CB&NS shares a Swing Bridge with part of the Trans Canada Highway, crossing the Strait of Canso. If your interested in looking at above bridge just type Canso Causeway into any search engine

[BR60103]

Mr. Siding:
CPR Dieselisation was done primarily on a geographic basis from west to east. However (perennial however!) diesels were also put on passenger trains, from the top down, I think. The Canadian was Dieselised from its start in 54/55.
One loco bought in 37, a series of switchers from 43, then road diesels in 1949.
CN and CP didn't buy any F units earlier than F3s in 1948. Don't know about the demonstrators.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BR60103

Mr. Siding:
CPR Dieselisation was done primarily on a geographic basis from west to east. However (perennial however!) diesels were also put on passenger trains, from the top down, I think. The Canadian was Dieselised from its start in 54/55.
One loco bought in 37, a series of switchers from 43, then road diesels in 1949.
CN and CP didn't buy any F units earlier than F3s in 1948. Don't know about the demonstrators.

Interesting. Why west to east? I would think that most of the population, and most of the passenger trains would have been in the east.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by KevinRC

Don't forget in Nova Scotia, The Cape Breton and Northern Nova Scotia Railway and the Windsor and Hantsport Railway. The CB&NS shares a Swing Bridge with part of the Trans Canada Highway, crossing the Strait of Canso. If your interested in looking at above bridge just type Canso Causeway into any search engine

I think I've read where the CB&NS was somewhat famous for having Montreal built Alcos?

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Did the FT demonstrator model, #103 ever test on Canadian Roads? I believe that CN had a viable diesel road freight unit back in the 20's. When did dieselization get a good start? Did Canadan dieselization mirror that in the US, switchers,then passenger trains, followed by road freight with FT units?

Murphy, I don't believe that the FT demonstrated in Canada. One thing to remember is that Canada declared war on Germany in September 1939 and so all their industries began war production at that time. Except for CN's experimental boxcabs and excluding the GTW , the CN did not receive any diesels until 1946 when they made a small purchase of NW2 switchers. CN started road diesels with 6 F3s in 1948, but did follow up until 1951.
CP received a handful of Alco S2s during the war, and bought a few more after the war. You have to remember that GMD, MLW, and CLC didn't start building diesel locomotives until 1950-51, except for a small batch of Whitcomb 70T switchers assembled by CLC.

[mhurley87f]

Single Line Tokens / Train Staffs

Did any Canadian Railway adopt the practice of controlling Single Line working by interlocking signals and points, and the issue of Single Line Tokens to trains authorised to enter a single line section?

In different forms, it's still in widespread use in the UK, and I seem to recall seeing this method of working in films of other Commonwealth countries, but was this ever adopted in Canada?

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mhurley87f

Did any Canadian Railway adopt the practice of controlling Single Line working by interlocking signals and points, and the issue of Single Line Tokens to trains authorised to enter a single line section?

I believe I read staffs were used on the Canadian Pacific for the bridge crossing the Ottawa River between Ottawa and Hull, Quebec.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by mhurley87f

Did any Canadian Railway adopt the practice of controlling Single Line working by interlocking signals and points, and the issue of Single Line Tokens to trains authorised to enter a single line section?

I believe I read staffs were used on the Canadian Pacific for the bridge crossing the Ottawa River between Ottawa and Hull, Quebec.

Wow! There's that language comprehension thing again, except in stereo![;)] Could a Canadian or a Brit please explain this to this dumb American? Thanks

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by mhurley87f

Single Line Tokens / Train Staffs

Did any Canadian Railway adopt the practice of controlling Single Line working by interlocking signals and points, and the issue of Single Line Tokens to trains authorised to enter a single line section?

I believe I read staffs were used on the Canadian Pacific for the bridge crossing the Ottawa River between Ottawa and Hull, Quebec.

Wow! There's that language comprehension thing again, except in stereo![;)] Could a Canadian or a Brit please explain this to this dumb American? Thanks

I don't know the details but I did see it on the telly[;)] once being used in India. It is explained in one of my 150+ Branchline magazines and I've started looking for it. It was indeed used by the CPR to cross the Ottawa River.
A member of the crew would take this baton thing out of a box on one end of the bridge and carry it over to the other side onboard the train. All signals would read stop until the staff was placed in the box on the other side. CP did use it at several places across Canada.
http://www.railways.incanada.net/circle/findings8.html

[Anonymous]

So what shortlines belong to CN? CN is my favorite railroad, but I don't know much about it, so please help me out with this. Thanks!

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by be_random1991

So what shortlines belong to CN? CN is my favorite railroad, but I don't know much about it, so please help me out with this. Thanks!

I can't think of any shortlines that are owned by CN. They did own the Canada and Gulf Terminal Railway in eastern Quebec at one time. They have purchased regionals like BC Rail and have assimilated them. In the USA they own regionals DM&IR and B&LE and will probably assimilate them.
Follow up questions are welcome.

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by mhurley87f

Did any Canadian Railway adopt the practice of controlling Single Line working by interlocking signals and points, and the issue of Single Line Tokens to trains authorised to enter a single line section?

I believe I read staffs were used on the Canadian Pacific for the bridge crossing the Ottawa River between Ottawa and Hull, Quebec.

Wow! There's that language comprehension thing again, except in stereo![;)] Could a Canadian or a Brit please explain this to this dumb American? Thanks

Murphy the same system was used in a few places in the US also. One place it was used was on Donner Pass on the then Central Pacific, later Southern Pacific. The book "Donner Pass" by John Signor, published by Golden West Books had a good description of how the equipment worked along with illustrations. The SP used to have trains pickup their tokens on the fly using an
apparatus similar to that used for picking up mail sacks on the fly. There are several pages in the book devoted to the subject along with good illustrations.

[Murphy Siding]

Sounds like gas stations that attatch the bathroom key to a 2 x 4.[;)]

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by mhurley87f

Single Line Tokens / Train Staffs

Did any Canadian Railway adopt the practice of controlling Single Line working by interlocking signals and points, and the issue of Single Line Tokens to trains authorised to enter a single line section?

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

Wow! There's that language comprehension thing again, except in stereo![;)] Could a Canadian or a Brit please explain this to this dumb American? Thanks

I don't know the details but I did see it on the telly[;)] once being used in India. It is explained in one of my 150+ Branchline magazines and I've started looking for it. It was indeed used by the CPR to cross the Ottawa River.
A member of the crew would take this baton thing out of a box on one end of the bridge and carry it over to the other side onboard the train. All signals would read stop until the staff was placed in the box on the other side. CP did use it at several places across Canada.
http://www.railways.incanada.net/circle/findings8.html

Boy did that link get confusing in a hurry![sigh] I guess I understand the concept, but man is that weird![:)]

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by be_random1991

So what shortlines belong to CN? CN is my favorite railroad, but I don't know much about it, so please help me out with this. Thanks!

I can't think of any shortlines that are owned by CN. They did own the Canada and Gulf Terminal Railway in eastern Quebec at one time. They have purchased regionals like BC Rail and have assimilated them. In the USA they own regionals DM&IR and B&LE and will probably assimilate them.
Follow up questions are welcome.

How about the opposite: Has CN or CP ever spun-off some trackage that became a shortline?

[BR60103]

Mr. Siding:
I think CP Dieselized from the west because the President (N R Crump) had worked for years in the Rockies on the increasing size of steam locos and felt that diesels would clear up a lot of headaches.
CN and CP have spun off a large number of shortlines. These have drifted in and out of various combinations (usually US ownerships). Locally, the Brampton and Orangeville is a former CPR line while the Goderich and Exeter is a former CNR line. CPR has incorporated in itself a large number of shortlines, either as takeovers or as subsidiary companies.
I'm not sure about CN owned shortlines -- they have Wisconsin Central and Illinois Central and DM&IR and B&LE .
The only staff/token operation I know is on the Halton County Radial Railway (the trolley museum) (see Trolleyboy's posts) where two reverse loops are connected by a mile of single track. They have a 5 segmented staff which allows them to run 5 cars at a time. (Rule: each car going down the line must have a segment of staff and must see the base segment of staff. Last car takes all remaining pieces. Cars can run without a segment iff they have seen the entire staff.)
(For the others: a staff or token is authorization to be on a length of single track. They are almost always interlocked with the signalling system so that only one can be available at a time. There is a machine in the signalbox that allows one to be withdrawn when the signalmen at both ends of the line cooperate.)

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Logic question ( it's a curse that my brain was hard wired for logic- the only noticeable outward trait is a mouth that's always saying hmmmm........?) : How do CN and CP compete with BNSF and UP in hauling container traffic from the west coast to Chicago? Wouldn't the Canadian routes be longer and more mountainous?

From Chicago to the three main northwest container ports BNSF has the shortest routes. BNSF must cross the Rockies at Marias Pass, 5213'. Further west BNSF goes through Cascade tunnel (no stacks ?) at 2833' or Stampede Pass (no stacks) at 2852' or the longer route along the Columbia River.
Union Pacific reaches 8013' at Sherman and then must battle the Blue Mountains, 4305'.
Canadian Pacific goes through the Rockies via Kicking Horse Pass, 5326' and then through the Selkirks via Rogers Pass, 3463'.
Canadian National takes the long route to avoid grades. Yellowhead pass is only 3717' and CN could use fewer locomotives than the other three railways.
Another flat route is the joint CP-UP route through Crowsnest Pass, 4459'.

Chicago-Tacoma
2220 miles BNSF Cascade
2248 miles BNSF Stampede
2358 miles BNSF Columbia
2373 miles UP
2418 miles CP-UP

Chicago-Seattle
2181 BNSF Cascade
2251 BNSF Stampede
2398 BNSF Columbia
2406 UP
2451 CP-UP

Chicago-Vancouver
2212 CPR
2271 BNSF Cascade
2397 CN
2405 BNSF Stampede
2552 BNSF Columbia.

[Murphy Siding]

It appears that CPR would have a competitive route, mileagewise. is CN competitive with the longer route, but easier grades?

[mhurley87f]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by mhurley87f

Single Line Tokens / Train Staffs

Did any Canadian Railway adopt the practice of controlling Single Line working by interlocking signals and points, and the issue of Single Line Tokens to trains authorised to enter a single line section?

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

Wow! There's that language comprehension thing again, except in stereo![;)] Could a Canadian or a Brit please explain this to this dumb American? Thanks

I don't know the details but I did see it on the telly[;)] once being used in India. It is explained in one of my 150+ Branchline magazines and I've started looking for it. It was indeed used by the CPR to cross the Ottawa River.
A member of the crew would take this baton thing out of a box on one end of the bridge and carry it over to the other side onboard the train. All signals would read stop until the staff was placed in the box on the other side. CP did use it at several places across Canada.
http://www.railways.incanada.net/circle/findings8.html

Boy did that link get confusing in a hurry![sigh] I guess I understand the concept, but man is that weird![:)]

Dear M.S. (and Others),

Sorry to have unwittingly baffled some of you with my enquiry, perhaps Cogload would be best placed to explain the workings in question.

Regards,

[jchnhtfd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by be_random1991

So what shortlines belong to CN? CN is my favorite railroad, but I don't know much about it, so please help me out with this. Thanks!

One has to remember, in discussing CN (which is my favourite too, but not by much!) that CN was sort of 'assembled' rather than 'built'. In some ways, curiously similar to Conrail, actually. So a question as to what short lines belong to CN is a little confusing, as it depends on just how far back in the history of the company one wants to go.

The main backbone of the system -- the primary east-west mainline -- would never have qualified as a short line, but there are any number of short lines which were brought under the CN umbrella either when CN was assembled (mostly to ensure that there were two major railroads in Canada) as a Crown corporation, or before -- or afterwards.

The Grand Trunk, for instance, was a major part of the puzzle -- but it itself was made up of assorted bits and pieces, and actually had two parts: Grand Trunk and Grand Trunk Western. It's the only part I really know much about without going to reference books! But as I write, a model of GTW 3412, a Mikado, sits on my desk (to the confusion of my co-workers), detailed as it was in the late 1950s, when it worked on the Central Vermont -- which was a subsidiary of the Grand Trunk, not the Grand Trunk Western. At that time we also had some Geeps from Winnipeg, and some RS11s which we'd gotten ourselves, and some C-Liners which came from who-knows-where, not to mention some Mountains which were picked up for a song.

It's rather confusing...

I would say, off hand (and I don't have my references here!) that there were at least a dozen short lines in Ontario alone which went into the makeup of the CN.

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mhurley87f

Dear M.S. (and Others),

Sorry to have unwittingly baffled some of you with my enquiry, perhaps Cogload would be best placed to explain the workings in question.

Martin,
Thanks for making the enquiry, that is an interesting topic.
It is this link that is baffling. It seems to be written for fellow signal maintainers only. http://www.railways.incanada.net/circle/findings8.html

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

It appears that CPR would have a competitive route, mileagewise. is CN competitive with the longer route, but easier grades?

Yes. BNSF does have the shortest route, but Cascade tunnel is a choke point which negates that advantage. This goes for the Stampede Pass as well. Perhaps in the future CP will be part of UP, and the Crowsnest route could see more use.
There are many people in Canada that say the CPR should have gone through Yellowhead Pass instead of Kicking Horse. The route still effects the character of both railways. The CNR could certainly call itself "The Water Level Route" while CP is a mountain railway, like the PRR. In 1972 CP even put up a quarter mile test section of catenary in Rogers Pass as part of a study on electrification.
CN bought 16 GP40's and 268 GP40-2L(W) locomotives, while CP never acquired any of GP40s. CP bought the largest fleet of SD40-2's (until passed by BN and UP). CN also got SD40s, but most of them were without dynamic brakes. CN never got into Locotrol while CP built a fleet first using robot cars and then more snoot SD40s than anyone else.
During the last 10 years CP has bought all of their new locomotives with AC traction motors, 61 SD90MAC (43), 4 SD90MAC (H), 438 AC4400CW, and now 60 ES44AC's.
CN has purchased all of their new locomotives with DC traction, 26 SD70I, 175 SD75I, 90 Dash 8-40CM, and 233 Dash 9-44CW.

[daveklepper]

Logical!

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mhurley87f

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by mhurley87f

Single Line Tokens / Train Staffs

Did any Canadian Railway adopt the practice of controlling Single Line working by interlocking signals and points, and the issue of Single Line Tokens to trains authorised to enter a single line section?

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

Wow! There's that language comprehension thing again, except in stereo![;)] Could a Canadian or a Brit please explain this to this dumb American? Thanks

I don't know the details but I did see it on the telly[;)] once being used in India. It is explained in one of my 150+ Branchline magazines and I've started looking for it. It was indeed used by the CPR to cross the Ottawa River.
A member of the crew would take this baton thing out of a box on one end of the bridge and carry it over to the other side onboard the train. All signals would read stop until the staff was placed in the box on the other side. CP did use it at several places across Canada.
http://www.railways.incanada.net/circle/findings8.html

Boy did that link get confusing in a hurry![sigh] I guess I understand the concept, but man is that weird![:)]

Dear M.S. (and Others),

Sorry to have unwittingly baffled some of you with my enquiry, perhaps Cogload would be best placed to explain the workings in question.

Regards,

Certainly, no need to apologize. I enjoy learning about new things. For someone like me, though, the link might well have been written in another language, as it went right over my head. I keep meaning to ask Cogload to explain what a signalman does.[:)]

Thanks

[samfp1943]

Recently, I saw some links on the Alaska Railroad website: The were in reference to studies of extentions of the AKRR ,to tie in with a Canadian partner and open a land link to Alaska via rail.. I am wondering if there is any serious consideration on the Canadian side for this to happen? One of the studies linked on the AK RR site was a study by CN.. It would seem that if this happened it would create a real bonanza in traffic for carriers involved.

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by samfp1943

Recently, I saw some links on the Alaska Railroad website: The were in reference to studies of extentions of the AKRR ,to tie in with a Canadian partner and open a land link to Alaska via rail.. I am wondering if there is any serious consideration on the Canadian side for this to happen? One of the studies linked on the AK RR site was a study by CN.. It would seem that if this happened it would create a real bonanza in traffic for carriers involved.

I can't see the line being built from Fort Nelson to the Alaskan border with Canadian money. A $5 billion natural gas pipeline is planned for the MacKenzie Valley and a $10 billion natural gas pipeline is going to be built along the Alaska Highway.
$100 billion is laid out for various projects in the Alberta Tar Sands.
I can't see American or Alaskan taxpayers paying for a railway in Canada.
The railway makes sense, but there is no one to pay for it.

[Murphy Siding]

Is there freight traffic on Vancouver Island? I thought I read it was just the *dayliner* thingy for train operations?

[selector]

RailAmerica operates some diesels for tanker delivery around the mid-Island. I have only ever seen them once...passing through Nanaimo, natch. Why couldn't it have been a working Connie or something? [:o)]

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally this was posted by Mr. Murphy Siding, who lives in S.E.S.D.

Is there freight traffic on Vancouver Island? I thought I read it was just the *dayliner* thingy for train operations?

I thought you, your three boys, and the Fashionpolicewoman rode one of these *dayliner* thingies up in Duluth ?
(The cats stayed home ?)

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally this was posted by Mr. Murphy Siding, who lives in S.E.S.D.

Is there freight traffic on Vancouver Island? I thought I read it was just the *dayliner* thingy for train operations?

I thought you, your three boys, and the Fashionpolicewoman rode one of these *dayliner* thingies up in Duluth ?
(The cats stayed home ?)

We haven't ridden the RDC car in Duluth yet. We do always ride the train though. I see from the newsletter I get that they now have a former CNW bi-level commuter car to add to their consist.[:)]

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by selector

RailAmerica operates some diesels for tanker delivery around the mid-Island. I have only ever seen them once...passing through Nanaimo, natch. Why couldn't it have been a working Connie or something? [:o)]

What's a Connie?

[selector]

Sorry. A 2-8-0 Consolidation...one of the most popular steam configurations ever. A great workhorse that was built ranging from smallish switchers to ones as large as heavy Mikado 2-8-2's.

The Kamloops Heritage RR, Kamloops, BC, has this rather purdy l'il filly.

[nanaimo73]

The 2141 in Kamloops was built by CLC in 1912 for the Canadian Northern Railway. I believe it was the last operating CNR steam locomotive on Vancouver Island.
In Ottawa 2 truck shay #3 has been restored to operation. It was used by Crown Zellerbach here on the Island at Campbell River to unload barges into the 1970's.

[nanaimo73]

Allen,
The shot on the inside cover of the December Trains is from Morant's Curve, located in Banff National Park in Alberta near the border with British Columbia. This is widely regarded as the most scenic shot in Canada.
http://www.pbase.com/turnstyle/image/49796670
http://www.pbase.com/turnstyle/image/49824255
http://www.photosbyearly.com/morntcrv.htm

It was named after long time CPR photographer Nicholas Morant, who took many PR shots here.
http://www.sandhillbooks.com/cgi-bin/sandhillbooks/180.html

The locomotives in the Alstom ad are 2 CP AC4400CW followed by a leaser that looks like an ex Conrail C30-7. That is an eastbound (empty) pota***rain with Canadian style cylindrical cars.

http://www.coloradorailcar.com/about.htm

Your thread-
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=-1&TOPIC_ID=48259&REPLY_ID=525701#525701

[Anonymous]

Wow! Thanks, Dale.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

The 2141 in Kamloops was built by CLC in 1912 for the Canadian Northern Railway. I believe it was the last operating CNR steam locomotive on Vancouver Island.
In Ottawa 2 truck shay #3 has been restored to operation. It was used by Crown Zellerbach here on the Island at Campbell River to unload barges into the 1970's.

You had an active steam locomotive working into the 1970?[:)]

[selector]

Sure, why not. They had their first movie theatre built in 69! [:D]

[THayman]

There's a CSX canadian division?

[jchnhtfd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by THayman

There's a CSX canadian division?

believe it or not! Basically Detroit/Windsor to Hamilton to Niagara Falls -- ex New York Central. Not sure but I think some of the track is pulled up and it operates on CN by trackage rights -- JunctionFan would know.

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jchnhtfd

QUOTE: Originally posted by THayman

There's a CSX canadian division?

believe it or not! Basically Detroit/Windsor to Hamilton to Niagara Falls -- ex New York Central. Not sure but I think some of the track is pulled up and it operates on CN by trackage rights -- JunctionFan would know.

The CSX in Canada ran from Detroit / Windsor to St. Thomas and then on trackage rights over NYC to Buffalo. A second line ran from Sarnia / Port Huron down to the first line at Blenheim. This trackage came from the Pere Marquette Railway. I believe all that remains is in the petrochemical area south of Sarnia.

NS had or has trackage rights from Detroit to Buffalo which came from the Wabash.

[samfp1943]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by samfp1943

Recently, I saw some links on the Alaska Railroad website: The were in reference to studies of extentions of the AKRR ,to tie in with a Canadian partner and open a land link to Alaska via rail.. I am wondering if there is any serious consideration on the Canadian side for this to happen? One of the studies linked on the AK RR site was a study by CN.. It would seem that if this happened it would create a real bonanza in traffic for carriers involved.

I can't see the line being built from Fort Nelson to the Alaskan border with Canadian money. A $5 billion natural gas pipeline is planned for the MacKenzie Valley and a $10 billion natural gas pipeline is going to be built along the Alaska Highway.
$100 billion is laid out for various projects in the Alberta Tar Sands.
I can't see American or Alaskan taxpayers paying for a railway in Canada.
The railway makes sense, but there is no one to pay for it.

Aparently, I thought that I had read, and interpreted the information to indicate that the AKRR extention was to be a part of a sort of super corridor project, to include piplines and highway as well as a rail connection..I am sure the financing would be a prettty arcane exercise, but this kind of enterprise would surely open that whole area up to major economic development.. Still it is a pretty interesting study.

[Murphy Siding]

Grand Trunk is the American arm of CN. (Grand Funk Railroad is something else entirely!). Are there Canadian railroads owned by American railroads?

[nanaimo73]

Burlington Northern Manitoba Limited is a railway with about a mile of track in Winnipeg and trackage rights to the border.

[BudKarr]

When do you suppose the last 32 car passenger train operated in Canada? Wednesday, Via Rail's "Ocean" departed for Montreal with over 300 WWII veterans, military retirees and their families bound for Ottawa and the commemoration which took place today.

The train is to return to Halifax on Sunday. I have seen a few photographs and it appears to be an all Budd stainless steel consist. Well done, Via Rail for the idea and the use of the proper equipment.

I apologize if this was discussed, but Ihave not seen mention on this topic.

If any military veterans frequent this topic (thread), I salute you for your service on this Veterans and Remembrance Day!

BK

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

Burlington Northern Manitoba Limited is a railway with about a mile of track in Winnipeg and trackage rights to the border.

Is this a remnent of J.J. Hill's railroad from St. Paul to Winnipeg? Something like the Minnesota, Winnipeg and Northern?

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

Burlington Northern Manitoba Limited is a railway with about a mile of track in Winnipeg and trackage rights to the border.

Is this a remnent of J.J. Hill's railroad from St. Paul to Winnipeg? Something like the Minnesota, Winnipeg and Northern?

Yes, only the branch to Brandon,MB has been abandoned.

[CrazyDiamond]

In case any one is interested:
http://www.novascotiarailwayheritage.com/index.htm

Also there is a shortline that runs in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
http://www.railtex.com/railmaps/CBNS.htm

[CrazyDiamond]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BudKarr

When do you suppose the last 32 car passenger train operated in Canada? Wednesday, Via Rail's "Ocean" departed for Montreal with over 300 WWII veterans, military retirees and their families bound for Ottawa and the commemoration which took place today.

The train is to return to Halifax on Sunday. I have seen a few photographs and it appears to be an all Budd stainless steel consist. Well done, Via Rail for the idea and the use of the proper equipment.

BK

I went to a junction today and got a picture of this train whizzing by!

[Isambard]

Check out my photo of Via #33 with Canadian WWII Vets on board, 10 November:
http://www.railroadforums.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=32389&cat=659&limit=recent

[Murphy Siding]

Are cabooses gone from the Canadian Railways like they are from American Railroads? (Of course, you might call them vans, or waycars, or something else?[;)])

Thanks

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Are cabooses gone from the Canadian Railways like they are from American Railroads? (Of course, you might call them vans, or waycars, or something else?[;)])

Thanks

I believe CN and CP started dropping cabooses during 1988, and the process was similar to that in the United States, but a year or two behind. I think BC Rail was a couple of years behind the big guys.

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

Burlington Northern Manitoba Limited is a railway with about a mile of track in Winnipeg and trackage rights to the border.

Is this a remnent of J.J. Hill's railroad from St. Paul to Winnipeg? Something like the Minnesota, Winnipeg and Northern?

Burlington Northern Manitoba Limited is now Burlington Northern Santa Fe (Manitoba) Inc., and has Canadian built GP 9 1685 for power. The section of track is a remnant of Northern Pacific's Manitoba trackage, which reached about 350 miles. In 1901 NP leased the rest of their track to the Provincial government, and they leased it to Canadian Northern. CN purchased it in 1946. CN still operates the track from the border to Winnipeg and then west to Portage La Prairie. A 140 mile line running west from Morris is now the Southern Manitoba Railway.
http://alcoworld.railfan.net/smnr.htm