Re: Is Being a Railfan Un-American?

[Anonymous]

I live in Delano, Minnesota, and i am 18 years old. just two years ago, some of my frends and i were wating for minnesota's residant 4-8-4 261 to roll by.we had cameras, and video cameras all set up, and we were there for an hour before she rolled thrugh Delano. a few BNSF freghts had gone thugh, and we took pictures.one of my frends brought a scanner and we herd something about 7 kids in Delano near the tracks, but never thought it was us until the local law and BNSF security came to the crossing we were on, and questioned us just as 261 came thrugh. i just baerly got a picture taken when the law took my camera and asked me what i was doing and told us to get lost. was that fair?

[Anonymous]

It's hard to imagine a rail fan who wouldn't try to alert the railroad to a defect or other potential problem by any means possible. We care, not just about trains, but about the people who operate them. They're our heroes!

Aside from the basic fact that we care, we are also Americans who should enjoy the same freedoms and rights as any other American. Most of us respect railroad property and heed no trespassing signs. Railroads have every right to enforce the security of their property, but some of the reported actions of local police and the FBI are symptomatic of a general atmosphere of curtailing our rights that is encouraged by the present administration. I believe we all have a responsibility to resist efforts to deprive us of our freedoms or the terrorists will be the winners. To require someone to sign a pledge to never return to a public site where he was doing nothing even remotely close to illegal is very close to the action of a totalitarian state. This isn't just about railfans, it's about everything that has made this nation great and fighing the forces that would take our rights away.

[Anonymous]

I'm a railfan and I've never had to bother or talk to anyone working on any railroad my whole life. I like trains, but I understand they have people who are working hard and I let them do their job. I imagine it's a bit of an annoyance to have people coming up to you asking questions about what is going on at your job all day long while you are busting your *** all day long. It would annoy me. I work about 20 feet from the BNSF mainline in downtown Seattle, so I see trains working all day long from my window, quite nice. But I understand that these people are working hard and don't want to hear anything from me while they work. Give these people a break. We live in a different world now than the one they had back in WWII.

[edblysard]

I wanted to respond to Wabash, but am to tired to chase down his last posting,, but...
Did any of you fans out there ever consider that maby, just maby, some of the crews dont want their picture taken? Everone of us, who carries a camera and shoots a roll or two a week, has run into a person, not necessarily a railroader, but just a person who dosnt like their photo taken. So they shoot the finger, or make a weird face, or stick out their tounge, just about anything to "ruin" your photo. But dont they have just as much of a right to not have their photo taken, as you do to take it? Yes, train crews are opperating in public view, and subject to laws that say if they are in public, you can take a photo of them, but how about your obligation to excersise a little common courtesy?
If it is apparent they dont want to be in your photo, why would you want them in it?
Ed

[Anonymous]

I too just finished reading the article. In fact, it was the first one I turned to. In any free society there is always a balance between personal freedom, national security, corporate security, and the rights granted under the constitution (which I'm not even going to venture on since I'm not a lawyer ). From a basic perspective any corporation has a right to protect its property and take reasonable/legal steps to do so.

If a person is on corporate property, then they are trespassing (guilty @ times myself), and whether or not action is taken will be dependent upon the perceived liability/threat imposed on the corporation of that incursion. They have a right to protect their property, assets, and employees.

If a person is on public property, then the coporation should only have authority to contact the appropriate law enforcement and report the individual if there is a perceived threat/liability. For example, someone sitting in a tree 50 feet from the corporate property holding a gun would be probable cause to contact law enforcement. Someone sitting in a car 50 feet from corporate property taking pictures should not be harrassed. Chasing a train, that's probably not a risk, just something the crew should probably laugh about and wonder why the individuals doesn't have a life (guilty myself from time to time).

From my perspective, if someone is intent on collecting information, such as train movement and pictures, no amount of security will keep them from doing that. The RR infrastructure is so vast that it is impossible to patrol/monitor it effectively. Furthermore, with scanners broadcasting communication between crews and dispatchers, once someone is reported they would have plenty of time to move on. Obviously the use of digital data terminals significantly reduces this notification of being caught.

In the end, we live in a "free" society. The rights of individuals are something that should be protected. That doesn't mean throwing common sense to the wind, it simply means that there has to be a balance between individual rights, and corporate/national security. Too often, restrictions are imposed on individuals in the name of national security, when in fact there are other reasons behind the rules. If individual rights are squashed to the point that I can't stand on public property and take pictures, then in the words of Goerge Carlin..."The terrorists win..."

Lastly, for myself I usually go to visible public places where rail fans typically visit. Yes, sometimes the best hiding place is in the open, but at least if someone is in the open they can be evaluated. So, as long as we live in a "free" society, and people act responsibly, then imposition of rules and regulations (hmmm, RR=R&R (not the rest/relaxation one, though taking pictures is R&R) on activities occuring on public property are silly and probably as effective as airport security (that's another rant)....

choochoo75

[wabash1]

The first thing is that you said you would see anybody in court who told you that you was not allowed on railroad property or to photograph railroad property either on or off the property. You also said that you was in the military and that you defended this country and that you should have rights above the law. (so to say).

1) If I am not allowed on a airforce base to look at jets or a army base to look at tanks then why should i let you on the railroad to look at trains or stand near the rails to watch us go by.

2) As far as needing rail fans to find a broken rail for me to save my life its not needed as the signal system does this for us. Then you might ask what if its a truck or car stuck on the tracks. i suggest you call the police first they will call the railroad . then we will stop short otherwise when we get there they wont be stuck anymore.

3) I never said i didnt like railfans in fact there are some real nice ones out there. It is the ones who think we railroaders should do as they want are the ones i dont like.

4) if you followed every rule there is in that rule book we would neveer get out of initial terminal. that rule book is there to fire you not make things safer. work for the railroad for a day you will see.

5) And the guy who thinks he cool saying i cant spell so be it I have been offered 3 differant official positions and turned them down. I dont care to be a trainmaster or road forman. I make more money as a engineer with less hours than the officials do.

6) the thing i have noticed about this site in the last five years is that the true railfans who was looking for the info dont get on here much anymore. We have lost several railroaders who would give the right information to the railfans talk rules, things that happen, and shop in general. People like derrick who works on the BN rr up in kansas, is one that comes to mind. A railfaan that would contribute regular was jen from northern Illinois She write sometimes now but not often. In my opinion why they are not here is becouse they are tired of trying to give truthful information and chat while being bashed by the know it all Railfans that are the ones we deal with out in public every trip. The ones that will tell a railroader he is wrong no matter what it is. the ones that will tell me i dont know how to drive a train. ( which is true i cant drive a train that would require steering, I run trains) Ed from texas is fairly new and enjoys talking about his job also. I would love to have a few of these guys who think they know railroading from the sidelines a chance to prove what they can do (or cant do) a chance in a yard to switch out 350-400 cars in 5-6 hrs like we do and if done and done right give them bragging rights. Otherwise dont get down on us guys and gals for not wanting are pics taken when working or anything else that would get us fired.

I do believe that every one has the right to his or her opinion. I have several times let railfans on the engine look around blow the horn release the brakes rev the engine. But it is the ones that insist they have the right to do as they please are the ones that make it hard for the good railfans. the ones who want to know something instead of the know it alls giving others the wrong ideas.

[Anonymous]

i think there should be a way for the railfans to be able to sit at the tracks and take pictures and such... i grew up around trains here in south jersey . and i'll be damned if terrorist will take that away from all of us..

[Anonymous]

Way to go, guy!

I love God and this country very much. It seems like this FBI thing is just a knee-jerk reaction. Seems like as long as we're not trespassing what can they do? If I do ever get questioned by RR officials, I'll gladly cooperate as long as they're positive with me. We all realize that trains are vunerable. However, the RRs and even FBI should take the attitude that railfans can make excellent lookouts for terrorists sabotuers instead of making us out to be people to be feared.

[Anonymous]

Scanners are nice but two of my favorite spots you can hear the transmissions from the gray boxes.Deshler(oh) is a good example.

[BNSFNUT]

Here in New York State it is illegle to have any radio that can be TUNED to an Police Freq. in installed in your vehical. There are some exeptions but you must be an amteur radio operator and the reciver also be an transimiter for a amateur radio band. But that is not very well spelled out and some hams with transcevers with extended receive (95% of new radios now)have run afoul of the law.
Jerry

[nkpltrr]

When I first read the article in Trains I was infuriated that this could happen in our country, but not surprised. Bush and his zealousness for war and homeland security has pushed our country to a new level. My position is simple. If you are on railroad property you better have permission from the local authority or be ready for any and all consequences. If you are on public property armed with a camera or a notebook, then that is your business. I do not want a special identification card or my name on file simply because I enjoy railfanning! That is what the current government wants, total control over the public. We should not need a license or permit to stand on the side of a road or in a public area and take photographs of a passing train. There are many issues involved here about this story but they all boil down to respect. Respect by railfans for the railroad industry and those employed by them and respect by our government,law enforcement, and the railroads for the railfans. Let us enjoy our hobby without fear of retribution or intimidation! Isn't that what we are saying Saddam Hussen is doing to his people?

[Anonymous]

In most states, the use of a scanner is illegal if used in the comission of a crime. In some states, a portable scanner is illegal. Michigan and Florida have fairly restrictive laws. To my knowledge, a portable scanner is acceptable in New Mexico, Arizona, and California, but don't take my word for it without checking with the appropriate authorities. You may be able to find more information at http://www.fireline.org/scanlaws/index.html.


Rob
3ri.com

[edblysard]

Your qualification dont matter in that instance. If you gave me or my enginer a washout, or a hot box or a bo signal, we would stop. There are enough former railroaders in the fan comunity that most crew realize that a signal from a fan often is a "good" signal. We, and I, would stop and go check.
Stay Frosty
Ed

[RudyRockvilleMD]

Bryan:
The short answers to both of your questions are no and no. You may use a cell phone to tell a colleague about an approaching train. You may listen to whatever railroad transmissions your scanner picks up.

[louisnash]

Since I am from Northern KY and live along NS Cincy-Danville Line, I checkd out their website to see what their policy is in photographing trains.Go to WWW.nscorp.com and under Journalists' Page there is a heading "Visiting NS Property" In the 2nd paragraph it states as follows, "It is permissable to photograph Norfolk Southern trains and operations from vantage points that are well away from railroad property. Trespassing on railroad property is a serious offense-one that could expose the trespasser to potential danger." So get those cameras out and start picture taking on the NS. Maybe we should all print out that page that way when we are out on PUBLIC property taking photos of NS, we can show the policy to our law enforcement agencies, since it will have the date it was printed on it. I have not found anything on CSX in their website about their visiting railroad property. Haven't checked the other major roads due to these are the only 2 close by to me.

[louisnash]

If we are going to start worrying about this whole railfan issue and who's right and who's wrong look at it this way: No one in America has any kind of privacy whatsoever. Anything anyone wants to know just has to log onto the internet. All you need is a persons name. That's it! That really irritates the heck out of me. There is nothing that no one can find out. We are so worried about taking a picture of a train, but in reality I have heard no one question the internet and its effects on our personal lives. Don't limit this column to just trains. You can go on any site for any company and find out what they do. Whether it's a railroad, factory, school, or just directions to someones house. Like I said you only need a name. I believe our government shoots at the hip when a problem arises. The internet I believe, even though it is very useful, is also our NUMBER ONE threat when it comes to terror. Not a guy/gal taking a picture of a train, the liberty bell, or any other symbol of interest to them of our nation. I think that OUR government needs to look at that issue harder than an american taking photos. I said in another post that if taking pictures is so wrong of what they speak of then start closing down all our history museums, our national landmarks, even certain conventions that go on. Start telling people that it is a security risk to take vacation photos and to stop because they don't own that beach they are staying at, or they don't own that lake at the resort they are visiting. Just remember, these cowards (terrorists) don't have to worry about going out and taking pictures of anything in our national security interests. All they have to do is get the internet and not have to worry about being seen by our law enforcement officials. I'm proud to live in this country, and I'm proud to be a railfan. I'm also proud that I can take a picture of a train (on public property), take a picture of that beach I went to, take a picture of that national landmark that made this country what it is today. So stop hounding the man that has a hobby and worry about what that COWARD is doing on the internet. They aren't that stupid. Like you said, has anyone forgotten 9/11. No one knows whats going to happen next. Not us, and not OUR government.

[Anonymous]

I beleuive that a true American Railfan with the proper identify shoul dbe allowed access to public prperty where he/she can photograph or view any trains he/she choosesd and also wghile on public propert should be able to follow the movement of trains without fear of reprisial from various railroad officials or police dept in whose jurisdiction he/she might be. I have never seen a railenthusiat intefere with any train operationa, but I must admit that with the threat os terrism the railroads need to be on guard at all times,therfore the railroad enthusiat should r3gister and privide proper identification to the railroad and statehis/her intentions.

[Anonymous]

I beleuive that a true American Railfan with the proper identify shoul dbe allowed access to public prperty where he/she can photograph or view any trains he/she choosesd and also wghile on public propert should be able to follow the movement of trains without fear of reprisial from various railroad officials or police dept in whose jurisdiction he/she might be. I have never seen a railenthusiat intefere with any train operationa, but I must admit that with the threat os terrism the railroads need to be on guard at all times,therfore the railroad enthusiat should r3gister and privide proper identification to the railroad and statehis/her intentions.

[Anonymous]

In June we fly again from Switzerland to Albuquerque NM, stay with friends, then travel along the old Santa Fe main line to Gallup, Flagstaff, Seligmann, Barstow, mostly route 66. At the end there's a business meeting on the West Coast. I 've been visiting the USA frequently since 1985, I'm a railroad professional and I've photographed hundreds of trains in your magnificent scenery.

I am familiar with photography restrictions: in Eastern Europe under the Communists, and in Spain under the Fascists. I understand that there is a security awareness and protection problem, and it will worsen if, as today seems threatened, President Bush starts his war against Iraq; but there are much more effective ways of 'getting at' strategic targets than by photographing trains in the desert sunshine. Please encourage the Federal officers not to be foolishly paranoic about this matter, because we all are part of their (and the railroads') volunteer militia to observe and protect their interests, and to guard against unauthorised interference with rail installations along the line. By the way, is it a Federal offence to use a cell-phone to tell a colleague to watch out for the next train because it has two SD 40-2s at the front? Or to listen to a scanner?

I hope to return to Switzerland in July with many more incomparable photographic memories of trains in that beautiful country of the west.

Bryan
Ettingen, Switzerland

[wallywalkabout]

I've a question. As a former RR employee, train director, tower director, and dispatch.. If I spotted a "hotbox", etc., and gave you the indication signal as you past by, would you take heed or just blow me off??

[wallywalkabout]

It seems like total confusion here!
1st- Private property is PRIVATE and no one has a right to be there except the property owner!
2nd- Railroad property is private property, it belongs to the railroad! That means PRIVATE!
3rd- With an attitude like many have expressed in this forum, it is no wonder that RR's don't want you any where near them.
4th- Look, if I showed up at your back-yard picnic, or your job, and started taking photos, you'd say I had envaded your privacy!
It seems to me that we are to envolved with what we think are our rights, without considering others riights. That attitude is what gets honest, law abiding RR fans in trouble. A true fan acts like a true fan. They are happy to pursue their hobby without demanding special rights from the rail carriers. Has everybody forgotten about 9-11?? And the scares we had after? Lighten up and grow up.

[Anonymous]

Gee, did you read the post? I specifically said that I completely support the railroad's private property rights, and neither advocate nor engage in any trespassing.

You see someone trespassing or messing with your tracks, arrest away and God Bless. You screw with me on PUBLIC property (which by the way is legally defined as public thoroughfares like sidewalks, streets, overpasses, etc, and NOT military installations) which neither you, any railroad, or the federal government has any right whatsoever to limit my access to, I'll see you in court.

My regards to your brother.

Paul Burgess
Homewood IL

[Anonymous]

I have been a railfan all my life, from when i was a little boy, my Father had me playing with his Lionel Trains and told me stories of the GG1s that passed by his school in the old days. I am 18 now, and I have actively written railroads for maps and information and travel to Winslow Junction, locally, here in new jersey to photograph and watch the trains go by. No you mean to tell me the government has the right to tell me what hobbies I can and can not have. The last I knew, I had a first ammendright right, garunteeing me the freedom of speech, implying the right of hobbies too. I am unhappy to hear that railfans are being arrested and monitored now, and I look forward to the day we will not be hassled for something we are so passionate about.

Ed

[Anonymous]

I have almost 38 years of railroad service. I have always treated railfans with respect. If you feel a camera is a threat maybe you should look at the way you are perfoming your duties and obey the rules. Railfans are not a threat to you. Terrorists are a threat but they are not going to be standing on public property with a camera in their hands. Terrorists need to be reported. Railfans do not need to be reported. Learn to spell and maybe you will get promoted into management...

[Anonymous]

Having worked in the emergency services for 42 years, I can truly understand the point of view of the railroads versus railfans. Views of sabotaged trains carrying hazmats must make railroaders cringe. However, being an advid railfan myself, I am disappointed as more and more doors are "closed to us". What we all need to remember is that at best, democracy is a fragile system. A public "right" taken away here and now poses the threat of something else taken away later. Hopefully the railroads will not over react and totally shut the door in railfan's faces. It's true that we as railfans have our "rights", but lets not forget that we all have mega responsibilities as well. I have no easy answer to the restrictions that are being placed on railfans, but it is my sincere hope that all sides can work together to solve this problem. Meanwhile, railfans can be vigilant as they travel about train watching. If you see anything that appears suspicious around trains, yards, main lines, etc., immediately notify the proper authorities. Railroads need to remember that true railfans are on their side..., but at least for now, I can operate my large scale layout and welcome railfans.

[Anonymous]

I've been a railfan sence 1950, when I was 7 years old. I'm a VietNam vet, who used to have a t0p-secret security clearance. I've been an auxilary police officer, carried a .357 magnum. Now I'm STILL a railfan, I carry a vidio camera, I have an ID card (drivers licience), I have a cell phone, a scanner, a CB radio ,all of my local P.D.'s & F.D's phone numbers, binoculars, and a very healthy respect for railroad employees, and police officers. What else do I need to be observant and note unusual ocurances. But I don't just watch railroads all the time. Lately I also watch power lines, gas storage areas ,bus stations, malls, etc. Anyplace that my life takes me, I keep my eyes open, my equipment close by, always trying to be ready to do my part.We can all do this, it is what the Presidant has asked us to do. If we all do our part these enemies of the United States of America will not be successful. Don't be fearful that's just what the enemy wants us to be. ***: Barrington,N.H.

[louisnash]

Hey cry me a river dude:
Get a life! we are no more in a terrorist situation now than before 9/11. What bothers me is that the next act could be by one of our own. Thats what scares me. We are not safe no matter what we do, whether we are in a train yard, an airplane, or visiting our national treasures. I am scared to do much in our society because I am afraid what's going to happen next. The FBI thinks it could be trains, but who knows. Look at 9/11 was there any warning to the average American. NO!! So no one knows. But I can tell you this, I am proud to be in a country where I can have a hobby that I like, not what anyone else wants me to like. I am proud to an American,and I am proud to be able to take pictures of trains from public or private individuals properties. Maybe get yourself a comic book. You could fit in well as Mr. Burns assistant.

[Anonymous]

nope that was Thomas Jefferson (and Al gore, he said and Invented everything!!!) If you photograph trains dont be a moron and dont wear a towel on your head

[Anonymous]

I had to respond and just say - VERY WELL PUT. I imagine you expressed in words what many of us sincerely feel.

[Anonymous]

Sir:

Cry me a river.

First, railroads do not exist for your photographic pleasure. Railroads exist to make money for their shareholders by transporting freight.

Second, normal people (non-railfans) do not lurk around railroads, especially bridges, at night. That makes you suspicious. If I were the officer, I would have questioned you rather sharply as well.

Third, asking a suspicious individual questions in relation to a bridge fire does not constitute a violation of your rights. Were you denied your rights to remain silent or to be represeted by a lawyer? I doubt it.

Fourth, how could you bring yourself to swear at officers for missing a photo opportunity? Did you already forget by the next day that these officers were investigating a bridge fire? Shame on you!

So-called "railfans" like you bring ill repute on a fine hobby. Even without terrorists to worry about, it is no wonder that railroads and security forces are hostile towards railfans. I'll bet you litter and trespass, too.

Why don't you consider another hobby like comic books? The comic book guy on the Simpsons is almost as obsessive, devoid of common sense, and lacking in interpersonal skills as you are. You should fit in fine.