Re: Is Being a Railfan Un-American?

[Anonymous]

My brother and I watched trains on a Saturday morning last November at the Vancouver, WA Amtrak station with no problems. We saw a Talgo passenger train arrive and depart and several freight trains and some switching operations. We did the usual rail fan things - photos, taking notes,checking Kalmbach guidebooks, running, shouting, and gesticulating wildly. There would have been plenty of oppportunity to question us. Because we were at an Amtrak station, all of our "running around" would have been on railroad property.

[OldArmy94]

A couple of things:

1. Railfans should fight any attempt to be forced to register with any law enforcement agency or any railroad, for that matter. A VOLUNTARY ID with a national railfanning organization, however, is a good idea. I am very much against government sponsored registration--it's a time-honored tactic utilized by totalitarian regimes and has no business in our land.

2. Isn't it best to railfan in groups in highly visible places? I think that it's more fun, anyway, and you are less likely to be accused of being a terrorist if you and your railfan buddies are together. Of course, I still believe you have the freedom to go alone any time you wish but that's just a suggestion.

This is a good discussion and I am pleased to see that railfans are sticking up for their rights to view and photograph trains from PUBLIC property.

[DougNash]

I think the recent TRAINS article about railfans is rubbish. This country has gotten totally paranoid about the littlest thing. Instead of worrrying why the fan is out takinbg pictures of locos or passenger cars, start worrying why and how 19 scumbags got in and out of this country multiple times undetected and then took advantage of how benevolent we are of "equal opportunity for all" and duped our own educational processes to study in flight school. Wake up...the streets aren't paved with gold anymore. They're so stupid anyway, they could have gone to STAPLES and bout MicroSoft Flight Simulator 2000 and saved a lot of time and effort.
True, a fan should ALWAYS make himself known on company property, and with the exception of 3 situations (the TRRA, BRC and JZ (Yugoslavia)) I was ALWAYS afforded an extra above board courtesy when I had visited the yard office and identified myself as an employee of another railroad, no matter WHICH country in the world I have been in.
And least we forget, only 14 years ago, it WAS totally dangerous to be a railfan in Eastern Euroopean countries under Communist rule. A little tactfulness, souveniers and employee interst would gain access to some places, but with thew caution it WAS forbidden to photograph certain railroad things (Bridges, tunnels, interlockings) but others were greatfully appreciated. As a few past TRAINS articles of Ron Zeil's adventures in steam-laden Russia mentioned, snapping flash bulbs in the faces of the Police or Milicia were NOT the way to go. We should use a little sense here, and prove to the right/wrong "tunnel mentality" cop world that being a railfan, while it does not fit their "security guidelines" ergo it MUST be wrong is a totally respectable pastime that can and should not be regulated by ANY government.

I've found the perfect use for Duct Tape...across Tom Ridge's mouth so he can't issue any more stupid dictums that have the potential to affect us in our hobbies.

[DougNash]

I think the recent TRAINS article about railfans is rubbish. This country has gotten totally paranoid about the littlest thing. Instead of worrrying why the fan is out takinbg pictures of locos or passenger cars, start worrying why and how 19 scumbags got in and out of this country multiple times undetected and then took advantage of how benevolent we are of "equal opportunity for all" and duped our own educational processes to study in flight school. Wake up...the streets aren't paved with gold anymore. They're so stupid anyway, they could have gone to STAPLES and bout MicroSoft Flight Simulator 2000 and saved a lot of time and effort.
True, a fan should ALWAYS make himself known on company property, and with the exception of 3 situations (the TRRA, BRC and JZ (Yugoslavia)) I was ALWAYS afforded an extra above board courtesy when I had visited the yard office and identified myself as an employee of another railroad, no matter WHICH country in the world I have been in.
And least we forget, only 14 years ago, it WAS totally dangerous to be a railfan in Eastern Euroopean countries under Communist rule. A little tactfulness, souveniers and employee interst would gain access to some places, but with thew caution it WAS forbidden to photograph certain railroad things (Bridges, tunnels, interlockings) but others were greatfully appreciated. As a few past TRAINS articles of Ron Zeil's adventures in steam-laden Russia mentioned, snapping flash bulbs in the faces of the Police or Milicia were NOT the way to go. We should use a little sense here, and prove to the right/wrong "tunnel mentality" cop world that being a railfan, while it does not fit their "security guidelines" ergo it MUST be wrong is a totally respectable pastime that can and should not be regulated by ANY government.

I've found the perfect use for Duct Tape...across Tom Ridge's mouth so he can't issue any more stupid dictums that have the potential to affect us in our hobbies.

[ironhorseman]

no, being a railfan is NOT un-amercian. i don't what word to use, but first we must DEFINE what un-american is. to me, un-american means burning of the stars and stripes. i love railroads and i love my country and i would never ever burn our flag even if i had a loaded gun to my head. this country was built on railroads. if you say being a railfan is un-american then you'd HAVE to say being a christian is un-Godly. see my point?

signed,
ironhorseman

[Anonymous]

Not being a railfan is un-american.
RS Gilbert www.railartist.com

[Anonymous]

I enjoyed “...a Railfan Un-American”, and it reminded me of an experience I had a long time ago.
One of my fondest memory as a young Peace Corps Volunteer in the late 60s was the sights, sounds and smell of coal-fired steam locomotives passing nearby my village in northern India. Numerous times each day local passenger, coal, express and freight trains broke the peace and calm of the village. Each had a unique rumble, or whistle and the ever present odor of sulfurous coal smoke as they passed bye.
Shortly after my arrival in Varanasi City, just across the Ganges river from the rail yard at Moghul Sarai, I was out photographing monuments and tombs of the ancient city. On the rail/auto bridge was a locomotive belching steam and smoke with a dozen bogies attached. I wanted that picture and started to move into position near the bridge for a better shot. As I climbed towards the bridge I caught sight of three figures moving with a very deliberate pace towards me. One figure was carrying an old British caliber .303 rifle with a bayonnete fixed, the others were armed with lathies, long spear-like clubs used for crowed control.
I was quickly informed that photography of the bridge is forbidden and I should move along or risk being arrested. Shortly after this incident I was visited by a deputy inspector of police. Over tea, he told me of a provision of the Defense of India Act which prohibits photography of bridges, locomotives and just about anything of importance. The local authorities would determine what is important. He added that I can be arrested and jailed without charge until the authorities were satisfied that I presented no threat to India. Over the next 18 months, the deputy would stop by my hut from time-to-time to remind me to be on my best behavior. I remember thinking, this would never happen in the United States of America.

John Paskevicz
Arlington Heights, Illinois

[Anonymous]

I just read the article. Perhaps James Slocum, Hal Carstens and officials from NMRA, NRHS and RLHS could contact the Citizen Corps and arrange for a "Railfans in Service" group?
Ed Ryan
Peoria, AZ

[ericsp]

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[Anonymous]

David Benton's letter hits the nail on the head. Railfans are citizens like others. They have rights to vote by choice, to spend or save, to have families or stay single, to be soldiers or civilians, to claim civil liberties and to guarantee these to others. In short, they are normal. Now, the local agents of police and other authorities are not always very wise, nor are they always well informed. They may be easily manipulated to become agents of repression, starting the slippery slope towards the totalitarianism you properly fear.

We throughout the non-US western world fear that the Iraq campaign, the political and military preparations, and the use of dis-information are all part of a program which is not democratically founded, and which has been carried through without a basis of international law (i.e. it is an illegal act of a small number of persons around the President, who have used their authority to create an atmosphere of fear and intolerance within the USA). Truth is then a major casualty, and a close neighbour of this is repression of non-conformist attitudes and behaviour. Railfans, I regret to suspect, probably come into that category: why aren't they at the ball game instead of standing waiting for freight trains in the desert! Totalitarian states of course need bruisers and 'rednecks' to carry out their dirty work, as indeed Saddam Hussein has known for some years.

The future is therefore unpromising, at least as long as the present White House administration believes it can ignore ethics, morality and international law in pursuing its own agenda, and to justify this uses the same manipulations as Huxley or Orwell parodied before them: the image of an external enemy is conjured up to justify repressive and manipulative measures at home.

I have cancelled my US trip planned for the summer. I cannot feel free travelling in a land whose leader ignores international law, and binding contractual obligations such as the United Nations Charter, to conduct a war of aggression no better than those he himself calls 'evil'.

Believe me, although this does not get through at present in US media, the immense and continuing protests in almost all states of the developed world show how widely this view is shared, that the leadership of the USA has, for reasons which are not really clear, embarked upon an unconstitutional and immoral campaign based upon a 'security' paranoia. This allows no place for me standing in the sunshine photographing trains.

I will follow you through 'Trains', with love and interest, and hope you will flourish and survive in proper well-informed constitutional freedom. The fight for that is now probably not only in the Persian Gulf, but at home. Wouldn't it be great if railfans headed up a fight for civil liberties and a well-ordered society?

[louisnash]

My grandfather used to do the same thing For the L&N RR. Back in the 70's my grandfather found many rails that were broken or pulled apart enough at joints in rail that would have caused a derailment. The L&N would always send him a letter thanking him plus $50.00 check for being those extra eyes. Mind you he did not work for the RR but that was a time in our society you had the good old fashioned railroader that knew everybody by name at trackside. My grandmother would even bring pops up to the MOW crew, or even train crew if they were stopped. Back in the Hobo days it was common for her to make some sandwiches for them as well.
About a year ago at my workplace, which is right beside NS tracks, the crossing bell quit working. The lights still worked just no bell. I went to the crossing to get the 1-800 number and the crossing number and proceeded to call NS. It took them 3 days before they came out to fix it. But I called. I didn't have to, but I did. But at times I get the idea what's the use. But I think what the crew would have to deal with if they had to deal with a fatality. I have talked to people that have encountered the same problem as you. If my grandfather called CSX right now would they be as generous as L&N was. I would hope so, But you never know. That's just the way all big corporate companies are now, not just railroad companies. They tell us to be vigilant (Homeland Security) but one day we all may do what you did and just not call. We'll let those defect detectors catch it if it makes it to one on time, or not report the crossing lights, or even report the signal lights because some dummy shot them out.
But my grandfather still waves trackside (he owns 120 acres of private, not public, land beside RR) and they all blow the whistle and wave the white towels as they pass by. They are all friends and some have even come out to visit him when they have the opportunity. I still photo trains there as well as video, and every crew that goes by blows the horn and waves their flag even with my camcorder on. seems like these guys aren't as paranoid as others I have seen posted here. They know they have good friends watching over them. And if they needed help we'd be there in a minute. Just a way to show our southern hospitality.

What a difference one day made in Sept. 2001 in all our lives. May God bless us that we get this war over (do what needs to be done) and hopefully one day get to a point we were before and be able to stop these discussion lists and talk about something enjoyable in these forums. But don't let those terrorists scare us or intimidate us.
LUKE 12:4 "Be not afraid of them that kill the body"

[Anonymous]

As a railfan/railroader I have split reactions to both sides of the issues. Since the Class 1 railroads have become impersonal and the local staffs such as towers and agents have long gone, sometimes it is the faithful railfan who hangs out at his favorite bridge or crossing is most intimately familiar with the environs and has spotted a problem and notified authorities such as law enforcement or railroad operations. I personally called CSX a couple of times after seeing track and signal problems. The reception was callous, cold and humiliating. I swore I'd never call again, and I didn't. One day while unloading a piece of equipment on an adjacent siding next to a CSX main line, a car came by with a failing bearing. I didn't waste the quarter on the call and that evening I learned the train derailed about 40 miles distant because of a bearing failure. It derailed just before passing a hot-box detector. They pulled that car out of the pile the next day.
A retired friend used to spend large portions of his days sitting trackside at a favorite crossing watching trains. Several times he spotted mechanical problems and notified local railroad offices befoe bigger problems occurred. He eventually got a hat and coat from the local railroad crews for his volunteer service. Such a small price considering the dramatic costs of a derailment. When the regional management changed he was visited by the railroad police and told not to come around. Now he sits down the street, silently watching as a car with a mechanical problem passes by. How much will his continued silence cost the railroad when the next derailment occurs because a broken brake beam, dropped coupler carrier or defective wheel passed him by and he didn't call under the threat of jail?
That is why a vigilant and trustworthy railfan has become an unacknowledged and unpaid but necessary part of the industry.
On the railfan side. My job takes me into a wide variety of industrial railroads, which could be classified as short lines. Railfans often visit such sites to take photos. I have witnessed them entering the property and climbing onto cars without ever letting anyone know they are around, just for that special picture. Seeking good pictures and the complementing egos have in some cases gotten way out of control. Railfans are welcomed by many of my clients as long as they check in at the office first, or let the switching crews know of their interest, but better than half don't. I have granted several permission to ride in locomotive cabs just to make sure they were safe ... and in a few cases good photos were provided. Nothing less than safety can be expected and the rights to trespass or ignore safety are not waived for someone who assumes his hobby automatically grants him rights to pursue a good photo.
Railroading is dangerous work. I would like to see the AAR issue a safety guide for railfans with some basic protocals of behavior, and for railroads and "Homeland Security" to acknowledge those who have demonstrated their understanding and safety/security skills.

Scott97

[Anonymous]

I am a British railway enthusiast , and speaking as someone who found and reported a broken rail on our main London to Birmingham line a few years ago (and certainly prevented a major accident as 80mph express passenger trains were passing over this every 10 minutes); I believe true enthusiasts are a great deterrent to "wrong doers" and can be very useful eyes and ears around railway locations. Please stop being neurotic about this and let some commonsense prevail.

[Anonymous]

SETTLE DOWN; DON'T GO POSTAL!!!!

[Anonymous]

I guess this is the right plave to vent steam about the un-american article. Well, I have been shooting trains onthe Wast Coast since Oct 1974 (It was an Amtrak train 14 in Oxnard). I have been shooting them ever since. Got published in the local camera club too. My feelings about restricting photographs of trains is totally un-American and really stupid. I was in Cajon Pass near Hwy 138 when a SF past by pulling a mixed consist. My friend and I were watching from the road when we spotted smoke from the brush. This was about 8:30 pm and quite dark. I told my friend to wait and see if he can get some attention while I investegated the smoke. Sure enough, the traction motor blowers blew out some hot carbon and started a fire. I was there just in time to put out the fire totally. I carry a shovel just for this reason. I got back to the road where there were two SF cinder dicks asking what was I doing on their property. I said that I was putting out a fire that their train caused. They did not seem to be too apprecicative for the service a railfan gave them. THis was not the only time this has occurred either. In the summer where the brush is tinder dry, we helped the Forestry Service put out another fire that we found. We had a jump on it to a point that the Forestry Dept needed to just mop up what was left. They were gratefull for our help. Again this was on National Forest public property. THis message is not to pat us on the back, but to show that railfains can and do provide a service beyond photographing trains. Just as the other posts read, if a terrorist wanted to destroy anything, this country would be hard pressed to stop a determined terrorist. We must keep ever vigilant and we, as railfans, can perform this service without being forced to restrict out movements. I know there are railfans who take advantage of this but, by and large, the vast majority are good law-abiding citizens who love our country, but if this type of restrictions continue and the harrassment prevails than we are no better than the USSR and other countries that restrict their citizens by force. I will continue to photograph trains because it is my right to do so!
Bill Krause railfan-alcofan

[edblysard]

Yes, pretty much. Limit the information the general populace has access to, then release only the approved version for mass readership. Both the nationalist and the socialist use this approach very efficently. Which is why the right to participate in and on a forum like this one is so important. Again, be careful what you belive. Just because its written in a major publication dosnt make it any more truthful or factual. Magazines, like Trains, have to rely on the information their reporters gather, and then rely on the editors to check the info and the story. So bias can creep in, even with the best of intentions. I just read the UTU monthly proproganda newspaper, no diffrent than what the BLE issues, just flop the names around. View things with a somewhat critical eye.
No, Trains isnt un-american for printing maps or listing classification yards. The information isnt un-anything, it what someone choses to do with it that is. And, for the most part, your goverment couldnt limit that info any more than it could stop the drug traffic. Notice any big drug bust lately? So if they cant keep the drug lords from crossing the borders at will, what in the world makes them think they can stop a dedicated terrorist?
Ed

[Anonymous]

I'm new to this so I don't know how to write without "replying"
that said, where does this all stop?
Is Trains un-american for printing "Map of the Month"??
A list of classification yards! indeed, useful information.
Close the library of congress??
Isn't this how nazi germany got underway???

[ericsp]

Below is response to some of wallywalkabout's points.

1st and 2nd points.
I don't think that most (if any) of people doing the posting are saying that they should be allowed on private property. They are saying that they should be allowed to take pictures from public property, or from private property if they have the owners permission.

4th Point
Also, taking pictures of someones backyard picnic is not quite a correct analogy for taking pictures of trains from public property. Taking pictures of someones backyard picnic is analogous to going into an engine house and taking pictures there, without permission.

[Anonymous]

To me, In the United States, I lived here for 14
1/2 years. (im 14 1/2) If i wanted to railfan, and i do, i go railfaning. If i wanted to be ruled over i go to a different country, well Im staying in the United Sttes to stay Free.
Railfans are acualy protecting America by looking for Sucpisous acts or people. We are not harming the railroad Or Our Great country, W

[ericsp]

I should point out that I was on public property while watching the trains.

[ericsp]

While I do think that the current administration is probably going overboard in some areas of security, they are not any worse than many other administrations. For decades now most Presidential administrations have been trying to take away freedom. It is just that previously they were not putting restrictions on photography.

Also, are the actions taken by the railroads and police in the article Presidential directives, or are they the result of some overzealous people. Railroad police have driven by me a few times while I was watching trains at the local yard and nobody has come to talk with me.

We seem to be making many assumptions here. I think it is time we find out the facts. Also, if we do this, then we can tell our representative exactly where the government is going wrong.

[edblysard]

Hey there Brian,
Let you in on a secret, its a ego rush for us, also. Kinda like, "look what I get to play with all day long, and they pay me too!" My first cab ride, before I went railroading, was courtesy of a english engineer, on a passanger train from London to some little village my Dad wanted to visit. Dad talked to "Driver" into letting me ride in the cab till we got to the first station. The guy was a total pro, let me sit in the seat, and "run" the train. Of course, he was right behind me, and I didnt get to move any of the controls, but just getting to sit there was so cool. But I think it was his attitude, more than anything else, that made me want to do that for a living. He was letting a kid have fun, but was also teaching me at the same time. He pointed at the speed indicator, and made sure I understood we couldnt let it go past the setting he had. He never mentioned he could get fired for speeding, but said" we dont want to upset anyones tea, now, would we?" He was more concerned with his passengers, and their comfort, than getting in trouble. Like I said, a total pro. I even remember his name, Mr. R. Fells. So I dont mind letting kids gets a taste of what its like, and we try hard to impress on them that, when they are watching trains, remember to respect the train, and the cars, and to keep at least 50 feet away. When we see them again, they wave, jump up and down, and grin ear to ear, from 50 feet away.
Hope your kids and you get a cab ride, it will make the video games seem real dull.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[edblysard]

I noticed you guys mutter a lot. And sigh, and throw up your hands, whats up with that? Low frustration level?
Ha ha...

Stay Frosty,
Ed

[louisnash]

Hey Ed. It's guys like you that make a childhood great if you grew up around trains. When I was a child and they still had cabooses(sigh)it was a great thing to be invited up inside. I actually enjoyed the caboose a lot better than the loco. You guys take a risk doing what you do by allowing people up there, but I would say that every train crew that has done that was to ever be found out the railroad probably wouldn't have many employees left. But thanks for keeping that tradition alive. Trains have been an amazement to our society well over a hundred years to the children and the adults(especially the children). And you guys/gals know who is legit or not. One day (hopefully) we will be able to get to a point in our lives we don't need a forum like this and we can enjoy the iron horse again. But don't stop the tradition. There are a lot of children out there that love people like you. It's one of those freedoms that we can take advantage of by waving at you guys and having you blow the horn or wave a white flag or towel at us. That still happens here in Ky. With me and my 2 young boys.
Brian (North Ky)

[Anonymous]

Ed, I NEVER get bored in the cab. Much of my time is spent muttering to myself about the crazy move my barmy foreman just made. (ha!)

[edblysard]

Hi Joe,
My engineer lets me run when we are out in the weeds, thats how most people learn anyway. And even though we have switch motors, they have 1500 hp each, and we use MUs, so thats 3000 horses, and thats a lots more than you camero or vette ever had. But it also makes you respect the good engineers, because it can get away from you real fast, with all that weight behind you. So smooth stops and starts suddenly become more of a art. You get to appericate their skill a lot more when you try it, and darn near suck out a drawbar. Or you try stopping, and after everything quits banging into your butt, you can see you engineer grinning, because he knew you were gonna blow it, and he had a good handhold, didnt even spill his coffee.
They all say its really boreing in the cab, but I noticed none of them ever volunteer to come back to the ground...
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[edblysard]

Where can he go with it? And the hogger is standing right there, I know where the emergency fuel cut off is, both of them, and we can allways plug it, blow the emergency brakes.
The reverser isnt in, its in my hands or the engineers, so hes stuck in netural anyway.
Besides, most terrorist dont bring their kids.
Ed

[Anonymous]

I don't believe in allowing people to rev up the locomotive! How do you know who is a railfan and who is a terrorist looking for easy access?

[sooblue]

Hi Ed,
You can't just go up to a stopped train and expect to get invited on in. Especially now with all the hoopla about trespessing etc. I would be afraid to even drive down the access Rd to a yard office to ask for a tour. How do you get the chance to get up close?
Sooblue

[Anonymous]

And this from one of your own.

Sounds like this guy, from this and other posts I have read of his, should have been farred long ago. Thanks to the union though, probably hasn't met the "negligent homicide" quota.

[Anonymous]

Furthermore, quit cutting corners and screwing around on the job and you won't have to worry about "gittin yerself farred on accounta dem dammed piture takers and whatnot" yuk yuk.

[BRAKIE]

Ed,J about 5 years ago I was out railfanning after a rain of 2 days..I noticed a large boulder laying on the tracks,I ran to my car and got 2 fusees, I dropped one about 1,000' from the boulder and use the other one to stop a on coming train by waving a wash out.The crew stopped and I told them of the problem,they in turn radioed it in to the DS...Needless to say the crew was very THANKFUL that I flagged them.
J,The engineer told me they was running 40mph..Now if they blew by me like you said you would do I could have video the wreck and sent it to CNN and the local TV stations...What did I get for this? A Thank you from a very grateful crew..That reward good enough for me..

[Anonymous]

Hi
Yes Ed it's a big rush.When I helped some railroad guys get some food because they were stuck behind a diabled train(frozen brakes).They let me sit in the cab of a brand new GE Dash-9 locomotive.It was really something when an eastbound passed.It was their way of saying thanks.
take care
Joe

[Anonymous]

Look out Ed, U.P. is starting a licensing program to controll use of its trademark. I wouldn't be supprise if they try to sue someone for trademark infringment by photographing their logo. They're finding more ways to skin a railfan.

G.Setter

[artpeterson]

Hi James -

ABSOLUTELY agree with you that there is a need to act responsibly, as well as a need to document current operations, as was done during WWII.

Art Peterson, Chicago, IL

[Anonymous]

Ed said: Everybody and their uncle was crawling all over the docks. Port cops, PTRA cops, Houston PD, even a fed or two. There is a public observation platform at the turning basin end of the houston ship channel, and a fan was trying to get to it to take a few photos. The Port cops turned him away. Weird, because a: its a public place, and B; just about every local news team were down there, filming all of it.


How silly the situation you describe. And hence, the quandary railfans are in: wanting to do the right thing, but knowing something is way out of kilter with the selective enforcement. If it weren’t for situations such as you describe, I’d be inclined to leave this issue alone. For example, what about all the pictures on national TV this past week about the nuclear power plant upstream from NYC as a potential terrorist target? Good grief. Railfans have NO ability to advertise targets on national TV (where they can be recorded internationally via satellite), yet law enforcement is worried about railfans?

To wit, the press folks had press badges, yes? And their employer has lawyers to challenge enforcement agencies if denied access to public areas. Railfans don't have the backing of any legal organization and hence don't enjoy the same 1st Amendment relationship with law enforcement agencies as does the media. I am rather chagrined to conclude it might take a court case to bring this to closure. That means a railfan will have to initiate the proceeding.

As for an ID card, we already carry driver’s licenses from which police can learn most anything they need to know. An ID card (a license?!!) to take railroad pictures from public property seems improper in our constitutional republic.

As for the national organization I suggested in another post, responders to that post have asked all the questions I was asking to myself. My thought was not to have any special permission or recognition from railroads or law enforcement, but to have the financial ability to employ legal representation…which means a dues paying organization…something that not many railfans are convinced (yet) is needed.

The bottom line is no one feels we should need permission to do (on public property) what we believe we have a constitutionally guaranteed right to do. However, it is sometimes true that rights are violated by law enforcement (intentionally or not) and a proper function of the courts to scrutinize.

The ACLU literature on how to behave if is clear: obey the officer. If you want to pursue the case in court, get the officer’s name and badge number. Write down times, places, dates. And good luck.


Rob
3ri.com

[Anonymous]

mbensa,
I would strongly recommend you use the word photograph instead of "shoot" or "shot" as in "take a good shot at a train". If a police officer asked you what are you doing, they could interpet "shooting trains" as shooting with a gun even though you have a camera in hand.
Gary

[Anonymous]

we should be railfans no matter what the govmernt thinks.

[edblysard]

Yes, they would. It's a ru***o have someone so interested in what you do. And its kinda funny, when you try to explain whos in charge, and when, they never seem to understand. But its a shared responsibility, the engineer is responsable for the safe handleing of the train, and the conducter is responsible for the make up, contents and operation of the whole thing. If they dont work together, nothing gets done. But its a blast to let someone sit in the seat, move the controls, and watch their face when the diesel revs up. Then you tell them they have 1500hp(3000 with a mu) at their fingertips, and man, do they get a big grin on.
But, again, its a matter of safety, and who you can trust, and who you cant.
Stay Frosty, Blue...
Ed

[sooblue]

What's the feeling? do most engineers not want their picture taken?
When I'm running a truck crane I usually have someone watching me do my thing. It has never bothered me, on the contrary it gives me a natural high to do something that impresses people. It makes me work smooth. One time I was working beside the local "mental health institution" There were 150 men and woman watching from their rooms, all of them had smiles on their faces. Some of them wanted to help me so bad they crossed the line. Of course I had to stop and relocate them *smile* but it was fun none the less. You can't stop a train to relocate people so I suppose it can be a real bummer.
Do you think some of the engineers really would like to take time to bs and/or show their stuff but wouldn't dare ?
Sooblue

[Anonymous]

I too have mixed emotions on this issue. In fact until reading the article "IS BEING A RAILFAN UNAMERICAN" just today, I have not given any thought to security problems vs. railfans. Just a few months ago, I stopped to photograph a blue and silver GM EMD demonstrator lashed up with a couple of UP's. The train was stopped. I pulled over on the shoulder of the two lane country highway, got out of my truck, camera in hand and spoke to the engineer as he walked down the track. He was cordual and answered a couple of questions. He saw me take several photos with no visable or verbal concerns. He got back in his loco....I got back in my truck and drove off. So is the UP not as alarmed about people taking photos of their trains? I beleive I will ask them.

[Anonymous]

The RR police should be able to check people out on public property but they shouldn't be able to ask them to leave.

[Anonymous]

I think that the railroads should use the railfans as a resource against terrorists. I'm sure that the railfans would be happy to help out. The RR's should try what the government is doing with the nations truck drivers.

[Anonymous]

Hi Ed:

Just a little pre- 9/11 story. I live in the Seattle area and the RR Police have been very aggressive here for years. In '97 I was watching trains at Military Road crossing in South Seattle. This has been a favorite spot here for decades. While technically it is railroad property it is also pulic right of way. At the time I was standing on the abandoned MILW right of way at the crossing ( between the BNSF and UP mains and 60'+ from either) waiting for a UP southbound. Up drives a UP cop who stops and tells me to leave. Not only that I had to fill out a UP tresspassing report form and give the guy my SS#. I talked with him further and he said that even though this was a public crossing I was still tresspassing and if he saw me there again he would haul me in. Through all of this I remained calm and cordial - but really! And this was pre 9/11. After that hassle I have avoided railfanning anywhere near downtown seattle. Oh, I cruise around once in a while but I don't hang out. God only knows what would happen to me now. Since then I have stuck to the lines into the mountains - Stevens and Stampede and have had zero problems.
Stay Low/be Narrow
Jon Bentz / Mudhen282

[edblysard]

If you guys were no where near the tracks, and on your friends property, then the cops were in the wrong. Glad you got your camera back, and glad your shot turned out. Now that the Sheriff knows who you are and what your up to, go tell the railroad too. Ask them where and when would be a good place and time. Nothing gets a railroad officer more excited than someone asking them what they think, and how they would do something. Like I said, you may make a friend who can get you more than you expected.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

we were on my frends deck at the time of the freghts came thrugh. on his farm he has a drive way that crosses the tracks and a clean vew for a half a mile of the line when 261 came close we were about half way down the drive way (that was where the cameras where)i did get the camera back how ever after we did talk to the sheriff and that picture was a good one though.

[edblysard]

Hi Brian,
Sadly, most of the old barns down here are gone, I do a lot of woodworking, and love to reuse old barn boards. And I like to shoot photos of old mills, and, kinda odd, but old industrial style buildings, with the fancy brickwork. That seems sorta a funny contrast, a building meant to house a processing plant, or a machine shop, or heavy production, but still has wonderful tirm, cornice and brick work.
And your right, most folks dont mind, as long as you ask first. Keep shooting, a lot of the old stuff is fast dissappearing, and what is a snapshot today, may be a artifact in a few years.
Glad you cool,
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[RudyRockvilleMD]

Certainly, using a scanner to help commit a crime should be illegal. The following states either restrict or prohibit the portable (on public property) or the mobile (in-the-vehicle)use of scanners:
Florida
Kentucky
New York
Michigan
Indiana
Minnesota

[Anonymous]

That sounds a little bit tough. The reason why you heard that about truckers is that truckers have an excellent form of quickly communication because they all have CB radios in their trucks. That gives them a communication network, and if a few trucks spot something sketchy, there will be a lot of chatter and they'll all cover each other's backs. They can either alert the Police or highway patrol, or those agencies can respond to sketchy activities quickly, highway patrol, etc. There are lots of miles of uncovered railroad out there and a lot less CB carrying railfans to do what you are proposing.

[louisnash]

Hey Ed,
Great point! I agree wholeheartedly. I don't get there that often as I like, But I used to visit a railyard in Central KY quite often. Back in the 80's not much train traffic at all, line I thought close to abandonment but they along with CSX pulled it together. Anyway couple years ago I visited their yard, one reason because they still have a roundhouse and thats a great photo opp. But before I went I stopped at there office to get permission.They let me go and had me sign a waiver releasing them. they told me what I could do and not do. Mainly don't climb the equipment, and stay away from the guys working (stay outside the roundhouse). I gladly did what they said and everything went fine. They allowed me to do something that most can't and my southern hospitality obliged it. I am planning on taking another trip there soon and I'll do the same. In the 80's I can admit that my grandfather and I would walk their line. Back then they had small trees growing the line(was that bad),they had a couple small tunnels and it has the most scenic land I believe you can see.we didn't have the threat back then as we do now. So if they tell me no I understand. If they tell me to sign a waiver you bet I will, because I understand the risks involved in their company. I mainly take pictures of the land around the tracks and all the rusty cars. Lot of old logos out there still. The big engines don't impress me anymore. it's all a matter of r-e-s-p-e-c-t. It's a short line road that still doesn't have a lot of traffic but they own it, but it really brings you back to a time when we didn't have the fears we have now. a liitle nostalgia,you could say. One more point. I also like to take photos of the old barns with their advertisements on it. You would be surprised how grateful farmers and the such appreciate you asking before you take the picture. The majority are just proud that people ask before you do and just as happy to know someone appreciates the way back when stuff. I may have strayed from the point. It all boils down to respect for others.
Staying Cool
Brian(north KY)

[Anonymous]

I think that the railroads should do what the government wants to try; with the government they used truck drivers to look for terrorist activity, and I think that the railroads should use the railfans to help protect this mode of transportation. I don't know exactly how they are going to do this but they should think about it; I'm sure that railfans would be willing to help the railroads out.

[edblysard]

Wabash, what I would do in a sideing for 3 hours is smoke a pack, take a nap, and hope the trainmaster was off somewhere else hassleing someone else. We cant smoke in our cabs, buildings, ect. Like breathing diesel fumes, brake shoe dust, and sand dust all day is ok, but a cigarette isnt...and our book says in a reclined position, with eyes closed, you will be assumed to be asleep, and fired. And yeah, if we followed every single rule in the GCOR, you could never get your train out of the terminial, much less across the sub...
Every one of us has to decide for himself how far he wants to take the rules, and how many he whats to disreguard. For my part, most of the safety rules make sense. Most of the operation rules do too, but there are so many of them written in such a manner that its easy to change their intent to fit any situation where a official want to affix blame to a crew for a incident.
But it still boils down to the fact that you have the right to not have your picture taken, for whateve reason you may have. It dosnt matter why you dont want to be in pictures, it just matters that you dont, period.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[edblysard]

Hi Stephan,
So you were 16 or so when this happened? You didnt say how close to the rails you were, but a guess would have you and your friends closer than the railroad crews liked. You also didnt state if you got your camera back or not. And if I remember being 16, I can bet you and your friends were not the most cooperative young men with the cops. Now, before you get your shorts all wadded up, I agree, it wasnt fair, but, if you were too close for comfort, there is a good reason we dont want you near the tracks. It has nothing to do with not liking fans, and everything to do with safty. I wi***his forum had a place for photos, so I could post one of the bulkhead flat we found out in our storage yard. The load of pipe had shifted forward, and all the metal bands had broken, and were hanging off the sides. It was discovered the hard way, when a crew pulled that track, at night, the switchman was standing to close, checking car #s and looking for hand brakes, and five or six of these bands got him, he was dragged about sixty feet before he could raido the engineer to stop, and he ended up getting stiches in both legs, a arm, and three or four places on his face.
You didnt give too many details in your gripe, what reason did the bnsf guys and the cops give you and your friends for asking you to leave?
Heres a idea I have been trying to get across to a lot of fans. Find out who the superintendent for the district is, call him or go see him, and explain who you are, and what you want to do, namely take photos and railfan his railroad. You may be surprised with what he will allow you to do. As long as you make a pro-active effort, and show him your not a threat to his railroad or crews, and are not going to place yourself in harms way and get hurt or killed on his property, most railroaders dont mind fans at all. But, when you show up, stand close to the tracks, well, we get worried about that. Look at it from our point of view, how do your think the crew would feel if your, or one of your friends got hung up on a dragging chain, or those metal bands? Or worse, a shifted load or high wide load snuck up on you and one of you got killed. I have only been railroading 6 years, and so far, I have had to watch the cops clean up three fatalities.
It stays with you long, long time.
And trust me, your attitude and actions now can determine you success rairfanning later. Make friends of the bnsf cops, and make friends of the district super, and these guys will make sure you have good time watching trains. Make enemies out of the same guys, and they will harrass you every single chance they get.
I know, your 18, and they are cops, you not suppost to trust or like them, its against the rules, but try and see. Whats the worst they can do, tell you to leave? They already did that. But look at the other side of the issue, who knows, you may get lucky..
Stay Frosty
Ed

[wabash1]

Ed

Thanks for backing me up but the just of the matter is more than not wanting my picture taken. when these guys take pictures of us that is evidence against us. one guy said if he cant work by the rules he should quit. well here is some basic rules that i bet he would break that would get us fired if he took a picture

1) No smoking. yes it is a bad habit but if you smoke you cant do it in engines cars buildings that the railroads own or lease including the cabs we ride in to and from trains.

2)Any one cought in a slumped position with eyes open or closed will be regarded as sleeping and fired.

3) throwing any burning matter from a train that is not in conjuction with its operation is considered a dismissle offense. its fine to throw a fussee out but not a cigarette.

4) you can not read anything that is not railroad related time table rule books are fine a newspaper magazine or other material will get you fire


Sit in a siding for 3 hrs and tell me what you are going to do. a conductor will get the chance to walk around sometimes the engineer will get to go walking to but not often. other than that no radio or tv or anything to read. and dont go to sleep or lean back. pretty simple there is more but i wont bore anyone with the facts. have a great day

[Anonymous]

If anybody wants to make some rail fanning trips that are legal, why not just use the phone book and actually call the railroads? Nobody ever seems to use the phone book anymore. At times I've seen signs posted near some larger railroad facilities with phone numbers to call for visitors info. They may not all be open to the public, but I imagine if you call the railroads directly you can get some useful and legal help as well as insights for rail fanning. I'm reading how a lot of people are just assuming they can just walk right up a few feet from a track and plop down a camera because somebody somewhere else did it and they assume it's ok. It's not. Just pull out the phone book and call to get the facts people. You might get yourselves some good railroad contacts that maybe able to get you some better railroad access to enjoy your rail fan trips. Just a common sense thought.
Pete

[Soo2610]

Stephan, In reading your post it doesn't sound right. However, several questions come immediately to mind. How close to the tracks were you? Were you on public or private property and what were you doing between trains? Take a look at some of Ed's posts from Houston. He gives a darn good perspective from the railroaders point of view and makes a lot of sense. I have only been stopped and questioned once in many years of railfanning and it was admittedly my own fault. I had a friend of my son along on the trip and he was starting to get bored and decided to balance walk the rails by a remote controlled switch. The gal in the control tower reported him as she should have and we were soon having a conversation with a railroad detective. He was nice enough about it and basically told us to stay off the tracks and enjoy ourselves from a safer vantage point.

[edblysard]

Thanks, Pete,
And we dont mind answering questions, just wait till we take a break. Most of us are approachable, and dont mind fans in the least. But, as you so well pointed out, our jobs is hard and dangerous. In feb, 2003, within a four week period, four of us were killed, ages 34, 37, 50 and 57, at four diffrent locations. Overall, these guys had a lifetimes worth of experience, one had 30+ years, but none of them new to the job. So if the beast can bite them, it can bite anyone.
Thanks again,
Ed

[edblysard]

I agree wholehaertedly with you, and suggest passive resistance to who ever attempts to force you off public property. But its a bad idea to "pick" a fight with a cop, they alwasy win the first round. But as to signing a waiver, thats standerd railroad pratice, to have you sign something that agrees with what they want, ask any injured railroader. The man in question cant sign away his right to stand on public property, nor his rights in any instance where he hasnt been charges with a crime, or convicted of a crime. Its just the way railroads intimidate people. Unless its a order from a court of law, its just a piece of paper, with no contractual obligation, as it was signed under duress. Any half baked law school washout could get any charges stemming from that "paper" thrown out of court in a heartbeat.
Stand your ground, its you right.Stay Frosty
Ed

[dougwood]

I am not sure if any other readers noticed the irony but I found it very interesting that the April edition of Trains included the Railfan Article, the Map showing the locations of the major classification yards, and the article on the New York City 53rd Subway Tunnel. All three articles contained information which could be interpretted in many ways.

As most individuals are discovering, the events of the last two years is redefining our society and also the "freedoms" we have been accustomed to. Unfortunately, the events of the past two years may result in the lessening of the "freedoms" we once enjoyed. I agree with the thoughts of Mr. Bradley; organizations who strive to coordinate and pre-clear trips to view the railroad infrastruce will probably more successful than the single individual who run a greater risk of answering to concerned railroad security and law enforcement as to the pourpose of the photographic visit.

Unfortunately the times have changed and we all must become more careful.

Douglas Johnson
Anchorage, Alaska

[Anonymous]

I live in Delano, Minnesota, and i am 18 years old. just two years ago, some of my frends and i were wating for minnesota's residant 4-8-4 261 to roll by.we had cameras, and video cameras all set up, and we were there for an hour before she rolled thrugh Delano. a few BNSF freghts had gone thugh, and we took pictures.one of my frends brought a scanner and we herd something about 7 kids in Delano near the tracks, but never thought it was us until the local law and BNSF security came to the crossing we were on, and questioned us just as 261 came thrugh. i just baerly got a picture taken when the law took my camera and asked me what i was doing and told us to get lost. was that fair?

[Anonymous]

It's hard to imagine a rail fan who wouldn't try to alert the railroad to a defect or other potential problem by any means possible. We care, not just about trains, but about the people who operate them. They're our heroes!

Aside from the basic fact that we care, we are also Americans who should enjoy the same freedoms and rights as any other American. Most of us respect railroad property and heed no trespassing signs. Railroads have every right to enforce the security of their property, but some of the reported actions of local police and the FBI are symptomatic of a general atmosphere of curtailing our rights that is encouraged by the present administration. I believe we all have a responsibility to resist efforts to deprive us of our freedoms or the terrorists will be the winners. To require someone to sign a pledge to never return to a public site where he was doing nothing even remotely close to illegal is very close to the action of a totalitarian state. This isn't just about railfans, it's about everything that has made this nation great and fighing the forces that would take our rights away.

[Anonymous]

I'm a railfan and I've never had to bother or talk to anyone working on any railroad my whole life. I like trains, but I understand they have people who are working hard and I let them do their job. I imagine it's a bit of an annoyance to have people coming up to you asking questions about what is going on at your job all day long while you are busting your *** all day long. It would annoy me. I work about 20 feet from the BNSF mainline in downtown Seattle, so I see trains working all day long from my window, quite nice. But I understand that these people are working hard and don't want to hear anything from me while they work. Give these people a break. We live in a different world now than the one they had back in WWII.

[edblysard]

I wanted to respond to Wabash, but am to tired to chase down his last posting,, but...
Did any of you fans out there ever consider that maby, just maby, some of the crews dont want their picture taken? Everone of us, who carries a camera and shoots a roll or two a week, has run into a person, not necessarily a railroader, but just a person who dosnt like their photo taken. So they shoot the finger, or make a weird face, or stick out their tounge, just about anything to "ruin" your photo. But dont they have just as much of a right to not have their photo taken, as you do to take it? Yes, train crews are opperating in public view, and subject to laws that say if they are in public, you can take a photo of them, but how about your obligation to excersise a little common courtesy?
If it is apparent they dont want to be in your photo, why would you want them in it?
Ed

[Anonymous]

I too just finished reading the article. In fact, it was the first one I turned to. In any free society there is always a balance between personal freedom, national security, corporate security, and the rights granted under the constitution (which I'm not even going to venture on since I'm not a lawyer ). From a basic perspective any corporation has a right to protect its property and take reasonable/legal steps to do so.

If a person is on corporate property, then they are trespassing (guilty @ times myself), and whether or not action is taken will be dependent upon the perceived liability/threat imposed on the corporation of that incursion. They have a right to protect their property, assets, and employees.

If a person is on public property, then the coporation should only have authority to contact the appropriate law enforcement and report the individual if there is a perceived threat/liability. For example, someone sitting in a tree 50 feet from the corporate property holding a gun would be probable cause to contact law enforcement. Someone sitting in a car 50 feet from corporate property taking pictures should not be harrassed. Chasing a train, that's probably not a risk, just something the crew should probably laugh about and wonder why the individuals doesn't have a life (guilty myself from time to time).

From my perspective, if someone is intent on collecting information, such as train movement and pictures, no amount of security will keep them from doing that. The RR infrastructure is so vast that it is impossible to patrol/monitor it effectively. Furthermore, with scanners broadcasting communication between crews and dispatchers, once someone is reported they would have plenty of time to move on. Obviously the use of digital data terminals significantly reduces this notification of being caught.

In the end, we live in a "free" society. The rights of individuals are something that should be protected. That doesn't mean throwing common sense to the wind, it simply means that there has to be a balance between individual rights, and corporate/national security. Too often, restrictions are imposed on individuals in the name of national security, when in fact there are other reasons behind the rules. If individual rights are squashed to the point that I can't stand on public property and take pictures, then in the words of Goerge Carlin..."The terrorists win..."

Lastly, for myself I usually go to visible public places where rail fans typically visit. Yes, sometimes the best hiding place is in the open, but at least if someone is in the open they can be evaluated. So, as long as we live in a "free" society, and people act responsibly, then imposition of rules and regulations (hmmm, RR=R&R (not the rest/relaxation one, though taking pictures is R&R) on activities occuring on public property are silly and probably as effective as airport security (that's another rant)....

choochoo75

[wabash1]

The first thing is that you said you would see anybody in court who told you that you was not allowed on railroad property or to photograph railroad property either on or off the property. You also said that you was in the military and that you defended this country and that you should have rights above the law. (so to say).

1) If I am not allowed on a airforce base to look at jets or a army base to look at tanks then why should i let you on the railroad to look at trains or stand near the rails to watch us go by.

2) As far as needing rail fans to find a broken rail for me to save my life its not needed as the signal system does this for us. Then you might ask what if its a truck or car stuck on the tracks. i suggest you call the police first they will call the railroad . then we will stop short otherwise when we get there they wont be stuck anymore.

3) I never said i didnt like railfans in fact there are some real nice ones out there. It is the ones who think we railroaders should do as they want are the ones i dont like.

4) if you followed every rule there is in that rule book we would neveer get out of initial terminal. that rule book is there to fire you not make things safer. work for the railroad for a day you will see.

5) And the guy who thinks he cool saying i cant spell so be it I have been offered 3 differant official positions and turned them down. I dont care to be a trainmaster or road forman. I make more money as a engineer with less hours than the officials do.

6) the thing i have noticed about this site in the last five years is that the true railfans who was looking for the info dont get on here much anymore. We have lost several railroaders who would give the right information to the railfans talk rules, things that happen, and shop in general. People like derrick who works on the BN rr up in kansas, is one that comes to mind. A railfaan that would contribute regular was jen from northern Illinois She write sometimes now but not often. In my opinion why they are not here is becouse they are tired of trying to give truthful information and chat while being bashed by the know it all Railfans that are the ones we deal with out in public every trip. The ones that will tell a railroader he is wrong no matter what it is. the ones that will tell me i dont know how to drive a train. ( which is true i cant drive a train that would require steering, I run trains) Ed from texas is fairly new and enjoys talking about his job also. I would love to have a few of these guys who think they know railroading from the sidelines a chance to prove what they can do (or cant do) a chance in a yard to switch out 350-400 cars in 5-6 hrs like we do and if done and done right give them bragging rights. Otherwise dont get down on us guys and gals for not wanting are pics taken when working or anything else that would get us fired.

I do believe that every one has the right to his or her opinion. I have several times let railfans on the engine look around blow the horn release the brakes rev the engine. But it is the ones that insist they have the right to do as they please are the ones that make it hard for the good railfans. the ones who want to know something instead of the know it alls giving others the wrong ideas.

[Anonymous]

i think there should be a way for the railfans to be able to sit at the tracks and take pictures and such... i grew up around trains here in south jersey . and i'll be damned if terrorist will take that away from all of us..

[Anonymous]

Way to go, guy!

I love God and this country very much. It seems like this FBI thing is just a knee-jerk reaction. Seems like as long as we're not trespassing what can they do? If I do ever get questioned by RR officials, I'll gladly cooperate as long as they're positive with me. We all realize that trains are vunerable. However, the RRs and even FBI should take the attitude that railfans can make excellent lookouts for terrorists sabotuers instead of making us out to be people to be feared.

[Anonymous]

Scanners are nice but two of my favorite spots you can hear the transmissions from the gray boxes.Deshler(oh) is a good example.

[BNSFNUT]

Here in New York State it is illegle to have any radio that can be TUNED to an Police Freq. in installed in your vehical. There are some exeptions but you must be an amteur radio operator and the reciver also be an transimiter for a amateur radio band. But that is not very well spelled out and some hams with transcevers with extended receive (95% of new radios now)have run afoul of the law.
Jerry

[nkpltrr]

When I first read the article in Trains I was infuriated that this could happen in our country, but not surprised. Bush and his zealousness for war and homeland security has pushed our country to a new level. My position is simple. If you are on railroad property you better have permission from the local authority or be ready for any and all consequences. If you are on public property armed with a camera or a notebook, then that is your business. I do not want a special identification card or my name on file simply because I enjoy railfanning! That is what the current government wants, total control over the public. We should not need a license or permit to stand on the side of a road or in a public area and take photographs of a passing train. There are many issues involved here about this story but they all boil down to respect. Respect by railfans for the railroad industry and those employed by them and respect by our government,law enforcement, and the railroads for the railfans. Let us enjoy our hobby without fear of retribution or intimidation! Isn't that what we are saying Saddam Hussen is doing to his people?

[Anonymous]

In most states, the use of a scanner is illegal if used in the comission of a crime. In some states, a portable scanner is illegal. Michigan and Florida have fairly restrictive laws. To my knowledge, a portable scanner is acceptable in New Mexico, Arizona, and California, but don't take my word for it without checking with the appropriate authorities. You may be able to find more information at http://www.fireline.org/scanlaws/index.html.


Rob
3ri.com

[edblysard]

Your qualification dont matter in that instance. If you gave me or my enginer a washout, or a hot box or a bo signal, we would stop. There are enough former railroaders in the fan comunity that most crew realize that a signal from a fan often is a "good" signal. We, and I, would stop and go check.
Stay Frosty
Ed

[RudyRockvilleMD]

Bryan:
The short answers to both of your questions are no and no. You may use a cell phone to tell a colleague about an approaching train. You may listen to whatever railroad transmissions your scanner picks up.

[louisnash]

Since I am from Northern KY and live along NS Cincy-Danville Line, I checkd out their website to see what their policy is in photographing trains.Go to WWW.nscorp.com and under Journalists' Page there is a heading "Visiting NS Property" In the 2nd paragraph it states as follows, "It is permissable to photograph Norfolk Southern trains and operations from vantage points that are well away from railroad property. Trespassing on railroad property is a serious offense-one that could expose the trespasser to potential danger." So get those cameras out and start picture taking on the NS. Maybe we should all print out that page that way when we are out on PUBLIC property taking photos of NS, we can show the policy to our law enforcement agencies, since it will have the date it was printed on it. I have not found anything on CSX in their website about their visiting railroad property. Haven't checked the other major roads due to these are the only 2 close by to me.

[louisnash]

If we are going to start worrying about this whole railfan issue and who's right and who's wrong look at it this way: No one in America has any kind of privacy whatsoever. Anything anyone wants to know just has to log onto the internet. All you need is a persons name. That's it! That really irritates the heck out of me. There is nothing that no one can find out. We are so worried about taking a picture of a train, but in reality I have heard no one question the internet and its effects on our personal lives. Don't limit this column to just trains. You can go on any site for any company and find out what they do. Whether it's a railroad, factory, school, or just directions to someones house. Like I said you only need a name. I believe our government shoots at the hip when a problem arises. The internet I believe, even though it is very useful, is also our NUMBER ONE threat when it comes to terror. Not a guy/gal taking a picture of a train, the liberty bell, or any other symbol of interest to them of our nation. I think that OUR government needs to look at that issue harder than an american taking photos. I said in another post that if taking pictures is so wrong of what they speak of then start closing down all our history museums, our national landmarks, even certain conventions that go on. Start telling people that it is a security risk to take vacation photos and to stop because they don't own that beach they are staying at, or they don't own that lake at the resort they are visiting. Just remember, these cowards (terrorists) don't have to worry about going out and taking pictures of anything in our national security interests. All they have to do is get the internet and not have to worry about being seen by our law enforcement officials. I'm proud to live in this country, and I'm proud to be a railfan. I'm also proud that I can take a picture of a train (on public property), take a picture of that beach I went to, take a picture of that national landmark that made this country what it is today. So stop hounding the man that has a hobby and worry about what that COWARD is doing on the internet. They aren't that stupid. Like you said, has anyone forgotten 9/11. No one knows whats going to happen next. Not us, and not OUR government.

[Anonymous]

I beleuive that a true American Railfan with the proper identify shoul dbe allowed access to public prperty where he/she can photograph or view any trains he/she choosesd and also wghile on public propert should be able to follow the movement of trains without fear of reprisial from various railroad officials or police dept in whose jurisdiction he/she might be. I have never seen a railenthusiat intefere with any train operationa, but I must admit that with the threat os terrism the railroads need to be on guard at all times,therfore the railroad enthusiat should r3gister and privide proper identification to the railroad and statehis/her intentions.

[Anonymous]

I beleuive that a true American Railfan with the proper identify shoul dbe allowed access to public prperty where he/she can photograph or view any trains he/she choosesd and also wghile on public propert should be able to follow the movement of trains without fear of reprisial from various railroad officials or police dept in whose jurisdiction he/she might be. I have never seen a railenthusiat intefere with any train operationa, but I must admit that with the threat os terrism the railroads need to be on guard at all times,therfore the railroad enthusiat should r3gister and privide proper identification to the railroad and statehis/her intentions.

[Anonymous]

In June we fly again from Switzerland to Albuquerque NM, stay with friends, then travel along the old Santa Fe main line to Gallup, Flagstaff, Seligmann, Barstow, mostly route 66. At the end there's a business meeting on the West Coast. I 've been visiting the USA frequently since 1985, I'm a railroad professional and I've photographed hundreds of trains in your magnificent scenery.

I am familiar with photography restrictions: in Eastern Europe under the Communists, and in Spain under the Fascists. I understand that there is a security awareness and protection problem, and it will worsen if, as today seems threatened, President Bush starts his war against Iraq; but there are much more effective ways of 'getting at' strategic targets than by photographing trains in the desert sunshine. Please encourage the Federal officers not to be foolishly paranoic about this matter, because we all are part of their (and the railroads') volunteer militia to observe and protect their interests, and to guard against unauthorised interference with rail installations along the line. By the way, is it a Federal offence to use a cell-phone to tell a colleague to watch out for the next train because it has two SD 40-2s at the front? Or to listen to a scanner?

I hope to return to Switzerland in July with many more incomparable photographic memories of trains in that beautiful country of the west.

Bryan
Ettingen, Switzerland

[wallywalkabout]

I've a question. As a former RR employee, train director, tower director, and dispatch.. If I spotted a "hotbox", etc., and gave you the indication signal as you past by, would you take heed or just blow me off??

[wallywalkabout]

It seems like total confusion here!
1st- Private property is PRIVATE and no one has a right to be there except the property owner!
2nd- Railroad property is private property, it belongs to the railroad! That means PRIVATE!
3rd- With an attitude like many have expressed in this forum, it is no wonder that RR's don't want you any where near them.
4th- Look, if I showed up at your back-yard picnic, or your job, and started taking photos, you'd say I had envaded your privacy!
It seems to me that we are to envolved with what we think are our rights, without considering others riights. That attitude is what gets honest, law abiding RR fans in trouble. A true fan acts like a true fan. They are happy to pursue their hobby without demanding special rights from the rail carriers. Has everybody forgotten about 9-11?? And the scares we had after? Lighten up and grow up.

[Anonymous]

Gee, did you read the post? I specifically said that I completely support the railroad's private property rights, and neither advocate nor engage in any trespassing.

You see someone trespassing or messing with your tracks, arrest away and God Bless. You screw with me on PUBLIC property (which by the way is legally defined as public thoroughfares like sidewalks, streets, overpasses, etc, and NOT military installations) which neither you, any railroad, or the federal government has any right whatsoever to limit my access to, I'll see you in court.

My regards to your brother.

Paul Burgess
Homewood IL

[Anonymous]

I have been a railfan all my life, from when i was a little boy, my Father had me playing with his Lionel Trains and told me stories of the GG1s that passed by his school in the old days. I am 18 now, and I have actively written railroads for maps and information and travel to Winslow Junction, locally, here in new jersey to photograph and watch the trains go by. No you mean to tell me the government has the right to tell me what hobbies I can and can not have. The last I knew, I had a first ammendright right, garunteeing me the freedom of speech, implying the right of hobbies too. I am unhappy to hear that railfans are being arrested and monitored now, and I look forward to the day we will not be hassled for something we are so passionate about.

Ed

[Anonymous]

I have almost 38 years of railroad service. I have always treated railfans with respect. If you feel a camera is a threat maybe you should look at the way you are perfoming your duties and obey the rules. Railfans are not a threat to you. Terrorists are a threat but they are not going to be standing on public property with a camera in their hands. Terrorists need to be reported. Railfans do not need to be reported. Learn to spell and maybe you will get promoted into management...

[Anonymous]

Having worked in the emergency services for 42 years, I can truly understand the point of view of the railroads versus railfans. Views of sabotaged trains carrying hazmats must make railroaders cringe. However, being an advid railfan myself, I am disappointed as more and more doors are "closed to us". What we all need to remember is that at best, democracy is a fragile system. A public "right" taken away here and now poses the threat of something else taken away later. Hopefully the railroads will not over react and totally shut the door in railfan's faces. It's true that we as railfans have our "rights", but lets not forget that we all have mega responsibilities as well. I have no easy answer to the restrictions that are being placed on railfans, but it is my sincere hope that all sides can work together to solve this problem. Meanwhile, railfans can be vigilant as they travel about train watching. If you see anything that appears suspicious around trains, yards, main lines, etc., immediately notify the proper authorities. Railroads need to remember that true railfans are on their side..., but at least for now, I can operate my large scale layout and welcome railfans.

[Anonymous]

I've been a railfan sence 1950, when I was 7 years old. I'm a VietNam vet, who used to have a t0p-secret security clearance. I've been an auxilary police officer, carried a .357 magnum. Now I'm STILL a railfan, I carry a vidio camera, I have an ID card (drivers licience), I have a cell phone, a scanner, a CB radio ,all of my local P.D.'s & F.D's phone numbers, binoculars, and a very healthy respect for railroad employees, and police officers. What else do I need to be observant and note unusual ocurances. But I don't just watch railroads all the time. Lately I also watch power lines, gas storage areas ,bus stations, malls, etc. Anyplace that my life takes me, I keep my eyes open, my equipment close by, always trying to be ready to do my part.We can all do this, it is what the Presidant has asked us to do. If we all do our part these enemies of the United States of America will not be successful. Don't be fearful that's just what the enemy wants us to be. ***: Barrington,N.H.

[louisnash]

Hey cry me a river dude:
Get a life! we are no more in a terrorist situation now than before 9/11. What bothers me is that the next act could be by one of our own. Thats what scares me. We are not safe no matter what we do, whether we are in a train yard, an airplane, or visiting our national treasures. I am scared to do much in our society because I am afraid what's going to happen next. The FBI thinks it could be trains, but who knows. Look at 9/11 was there any warning to the average American. NO!! So no one knows. But I can tell you this, I am proud to be in a country where I can have a hobby that I like, not what anyone else wants me to like. I am proud to an American,and I am proud to be able to take pictures of trains from public or private individuals properties. Maybe get yourself a comic book. You could fit in well as Mr. Burns assistant.

[Anonymous]

nope that was Thomas Jefferson (and Al gore, he said and Invented everything!!!) If you photograph trains dont be a moron and dont wear a towel on your head

[Anonymous]

I had to respond and just say - VERY WELL PUT. I imagine you expressed in words what many of us sincerely feel.

[Anonymous]

Sir:

Cry me a river.

First, railroads do not exist for your photographic pleasure. Railroads exist to make money for their shareholders by transporting freight.

Second, normal people (non-railfans) do not lurk around railroads, especially bridges, at night. That makes you suspicious. If I were the officer, I would have questioned you rather sharply as well.

Third, asking a suspicious individual questions in relation to a bridge fire does not constitute a violation of your rights. Were you denied your rights to remain silent or to be represeted by a lawyer? I doubt it.

Fourth, how could you bring yourself to swear at officers for missing a photo opportunity? Did you already forget by the next day that these officers were investigating a bridge fire? Shame on you!

So-called "railfans" like you bring ill repute on a fine hobby. Even without terrorists to worry about, it is no wonder that railroads and security forces are hostile towards railfans. I'll bet you litter and trespass, too.

Why don't you consider another hobby like comic books? The comic book guy on the Simpsons is almost as obsessive, devoid of common sense, and lacking in interpersonal skills as you are. You should fit in fine.

[Anonymous]

its crap ive been a fan 18 years and one time i was at the wrong place at the wrong time. i was going out to catch the local CSX D784 that runs out of Dayton Needmore Yard so i could get some night shots as it happens i saw something on my way to see D784. it seemed that a brige caught fire and alli did was ask what happend. then i was brutally attacked by police because i was a railfan. brutially meaning questions asked right and left. i felt like my rights were violated. also the cops took the roll of film i bought that night with a ex conrail repaint on it i go back the next day to get my film and i told them you aholes made me miss 2 ex conrail SD80MAC's! i was furious as the 80MAC's are a rare sight these days. and the sad part is it all happend on my birthday.
csx5000

[RudyRockvilleMD]

To add to my earlier reply. As far as I know there are no laws that prohibit railroad photography from safe public property unless you are near a recognizeable military facility. Since September 11, 2001 I have been photographing trains from public property on the NEC, on CSX, the CP in Portage, WI, and the BNSF and the UP in Rochelle, IL, and I have never been hassled.

[BRAKIE]

Well,j,You ever stop and think it may be a railfan that will save your life if he/she sees a broken rail or other danger and call it in? Naw,I bet you didn't think of that.We are not the enemy..

[RudyRockvilleMD]

First let's look at this from a historical perspective. During WW II railroad photography was curtailed not only because of War Department restrictions, but people didn't have the time, they didn't have the means to get to many good sites, and film was not readily available. However, railfans who could get film during WW II did photograph trains; I remember taking my first railroad photograph, the second section of the B&O's National Limited in Silver Spring, MD, in April or May, 1945, and nothing happened to me. So I don't know if the War Department's restrictions totally banned photography, or if they just banned railroad photography at strategic sites such as bridges, yards, terminals or tunnels. The point is the WW IIrestrictions on railroad photography were taken in stride by the railfans.

Sensitive information was classified during WW II, but in some cases the classifiers were overzealous; a good example of this was the Pennsylvania Railroad's 2-10-4's. Because of War production Board restrictions on new designs they had to settle for an existing 2-10-4 design and they chose the C&O's 2-10-4's as the ones that would most nearly fill their needs. When Trains wrote about them they couldn't publi***heir performance characteristics because they were classified, never mind they were identical to those of the C&O which had been in service for some time. In other cases, information which should have been classified was published in technical journals in the open literature.

During the Korean Conflict there were no government imposed restrictions on railroad photography that I know of, but there was some hysteria associated with photographing trains in the early 1950's, but fortunately that was short lived.

Today things are different. During WW II and the early 1950's we didn't have the satellite imagess which we have today. Further, and as many have pointed out, railroad photos of many subjects are readily available so restricting railroad photography makes little sense. The same goes for publishing information about interesting photo locations. At the same time should the railroads try to force cities to close their railfan parks?

[Anonymous]

The article points out that railfans are a potential resource in reporting unusual or problem situations. I am surprised, since they quoted Mike Martin, they did not mention that ATSF had a program in the early 90's where they provided railfans with an 800 number to report problems.

As for the AAR not be willing to provide the leadership in setting up a mechanism to work with railfans - if true that is precisely a major part of the problem.

Although it is impossible to know what the future holds in store for us - the country and railfans - as of now I do not see very few differences compared to pre 9/11. After a prief flurry of incidents in October and November of 2001 things seem to have quieted down. I have photographed on the NE Corridor extensively since 9/11, both on and off the property, and never been bothered. However, I have been reluctant to go down to Washington Union Station to photograph. I have spent a week along the NS and CSX in southern WV and not been bothered. I have photographed along the old RF&P and at Alexandria and not been bothered. Add Sand Patch, the Magnolia Cut-Off and NS's ex Pennsy Line. Let's also remember the railroads continue to host railfan activities from fan trips to railfan days (eg, NS at Altoona).

Finally, I wonder whether the two accounts in the article dealt with 2001 or 2002 incidents.

In summary, I think the article in Trains was only fair. Also, I think it was premature as there was very little that could be said about the future.

Bob
Maryland

[edblysard]

Man, I hate the tab key on this thing...

[edblysard]

Great Idea, Rob,
So what are you going to call your organization?
As for military shippments, it kinda hard to hide a train of 50 or so flatcars loaded with tanks and Humvees, and with cell phones so common, it only take the fans about a hour to figure out where it is and where its going, and they show up in droves. During Desert Storm, we moved over 20 trains down to the city docks here in Houston, and so many fans were stopping to look and take photos, the local cops had to start ticketing them, they were parking on overpasses, in the median, half on and off the side of the road, had to be over 30 of them at any given time. We even tried to make the moves at night, after midnight, thinking it would be to dark and to late for most of them. Didnt make a bit of diffrence, so we just gave up and went back to daylight moves, safer with this type of loads.
Funny, but the MPs seemed to like all the attention, they were required to guard the trains 24/7, and have to be in thousands of photos.
But back to your national organization of fans, so when are you going to start it? You are going to need a temporary President, and a ad hoc board of directors to start a agenda, a financal person to manage the dues, a media person, to handle contacts with and court the press, and a information officer to do press releases.
How about a national spokesperson?, Kay Bailey Hutchingson? Charleton Heston, or Willford Brumley? Somewhere out there is someone with a face everyone knows, who is a railfan. Michael Goss? He did a PBS ad for the Worlds Greatest Hobby. Got a contact at Kalmbach Publishing? They, of all people, should want to help sponsor such a group, after all, their magazines are directed at fans and modelers, so they should have a finacial stake in all of this.
Hope you weren't just throwing out a idea, and hoping someone else would run with the ball.
Stay Frosty
Ed

[edblysard]

Great Idea, Rob,
So what are you going to call your organization?
As for military shippments, it kinda hard to hide a train of 50 or so flatcars loaded with tanks and Humvees, and with cell phones so common, it only take the fans about a hour to figure out where it is and where its going, and they show up in droves. During Desert Storm, we moved over 20 trains down to the city docks here in Houston, and so many fans were stopping to look and take photos, the local cops had to start ticketing them, they were parking on overpasses, in the median, half on and off the side of the road, had to be over 30 of them at any given time. We even tried to make the moves at night, after midnight, thinking it would be to dark and to late for most of them. Didnt make a bit of diffrence, so we just gave up and went back to daylight moves, safer with this type of loads.
Funny, but the MPs seemed to like all the attention, they were required to guard the trains 24/7, and have to be in thousands of photos.
But back to your national organization of fans, so when are you going to start it? You are going to need a temporary President, and a ad hoc board of directors to start a agenda, a financal person to manage the dues, a media person, to handle contacts with and court the press, and a information officer to do press releases.
How about a national spokesperson?, Kay Bailey Hutchingson? Charleton Heston, or Willford Brumley? Somewhere out there is someone with a face everyone knows, who is a railfan. Michael Goss? He did a PBS ad for the Worlds Greatest Hobby. Got a contact at Kalmbach Publishing? They, of all people, should want to help sponsor such a group, after all, their magazines are directed at fans and modelers, so they should have a finacial stake in all of this.
Hope you weren't just throwing out a idea, and hoping someone else would run with the ball.
Stay Frosty
Ed

[edblysard]

Great Idea, Rob,
So what are you going to call your organization?
As for military shippments, it kinda hard to hide a train of 50 or so flatcars loaded with tanks and Humvees, and with cell phones so common, it only take the fans about a hour to figure out where it is and where its going, and they show up in droves. During Desert Storm, we moved over 20 trains down to the city docks here in Houston, and so many fans were stopping to look and take photos, the local cops had to start ticketing them, they were parking on overpasses, in the median, half on and off the side of the road, had to be over 30 of them at any given time. We even tried to make the moves at night, after midnight, thinking it would be to dark and to late for most of them. Didnt make a bit of diffrence, so we just gave up and went back to daylight moves, safer with this type of loads.
Funny, but the MPs seemed to like all the attention, they were required to guard the trains 24/7, and have to be in thousands of photos.
But back to your national organization of fans, so when are you going to start it? You are going to need a temporary President, and a ad hoc board of directors to start a agenda, a financal person to manage the dues, a media person, to handle contacts with and court the press, and a information officer to do press releases.
How about a national spokesperson?, Kay Bailey Hutchingson? Charleton Heston, or Willford Brumley? Somewhere out there is someone with a face everyone knows, who is a railfan. Michael Goss? He did a PBS ad for the Worlds Greatest Hobby. Got a contact at Kalmbach Publishing? They, of all people, should want to help sponsor such a group, after all, their magazines are directed at fans and modelers, so they should have a finacial stake in all of this.
Hope you weren't just throwing out a idea, and hoping someone else would run with the ball.
Stay Frosty
Ed

[edblysard]

Didnt miss the point at all. I encourage you to railfar from public property, all I was trying to explain was that most railroad police have no choice but to arrest you if you do tresspass. If, on the other hand, you behave like most fans, and persue your hobby from a public property vantage, and the authorities still give you a hard time, then they, not you, are at fault.
I read the atricle in Trains this morning, and as far as I am concerned, shame on Haverty, and KSC, shame on the local cops and the Federal Agents, who had to know better, or just were having a slow day, and needed something to do, but mostly shame on the crew, who either are a bunch of new hires who dont know any better, or just a bunch of jerks, trying to give someone a hard time.
Yes, use the loudest, most powerful voice you have, your vote. If you dont like whats going on, write your congressman, senator, state rep, anyone you can think of. Get your group to draft a letter or petition and send it also. Contact the local cops where you fan, and explain to them who you are and what your doing. Dont allow them to deny you the pleasure of you hobby, its also your right.
As for railroaders not wanting their picture taken, well, most of us dont mind, but if it is apparent that the crew or person your taking a picture does mind, excersise a little common courtsey, and leave them alone, after all, they have just as much of a right to not want their picture taken and you have in wanting to do so.
And remember, one of the things the goverment does take note of is numbers, and there seems to be a whole lot of you upset over this, so stick together and keep it up. Write Trains magazine, express how you feel, ask them to do a story from your point of view. Write Time magazine, do the same with them. As long as you keep the pressure on, and take a pro-active stance, your elected officals have to pay attention. Let them know if they are not on your side, you will be sure to express your dissappointment in the next election. Heck, write the directer of the FBI, he wont read your letters, but one of his aides will, and if they get enought complaints, he may issue a real set of guidlines to the field offices on how to reconize and handle fans.
Imagine a group of fans, standing in front of UP headquarters, holding up signs that say, "UP harrassd this man because he LIKES their railroad". Be sure to invite a TV news crew, Fox network ought to love that...
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

This isn't a direct response to any one listing, But I am curious,
How is it with security so tight, A vandel can spray paint a work of art on a car in a yard,?I'm not talking about simple "tagging"But real works of art (If you will)That obiviously took hours to paint?
Yet a railfan on public land is stopped,when taking most photo's last but only 10 minutes tops,
FYI, I too, live on the NS and the CSX lines and get no trouble from them,and even friendly waves from the crews too.

[Anonymous]

Security at the cost of freedom is tyranny!
-----------
So true! We should be allowed to take all the pictures we want from public property. I'm not ready to give up my freedom to NOT be protected by some crazies that the government may or may not be able to stop anyway.

[Anonymous]

As private property owners, railroads have every right to bar railfans from photographing their assets from public property. All they need to do, is construct appropriate visual barriers, perhaps 20 or 25 feet high, blocking view of their property, along their entire right of way, and yard assets.

If in fact there are national security concerns regarding railroad photography, it is the RAILROADS who are being un-patriotic and un-American by negligently allowing their assets to be viewed by the public! Perhaps they should just park their trains until they mask view of their operations

[Anonymous]

While terrorists are a factor, it is the loonies (aka: criminals) out there stealing RR property such as in the recent Strasburg RR heist, that are the bigger threat to the hobby.

That said, I am rather bemused over A) why it took Trains 19 months to come up with this article when the whole railfan community has been floundering trying to understand how their hobby has been affected and what the new "rules" of behavior are; and, B) in a search for legitimacy in the eyes of law enforcement, why has no one taken action to form a national organization of railfans as exists for several other hobbies. Somehow, I don't think the AAR RailFanClub would be so inclined, nor would a hobby magazine such as Trains -- in an effort to stay in the industry's good graces.

The most intelligent comment I read in the Trains article was the idea to use railfans as eyes and ears. That was obvious and leads me back to query no one has attempted to form a national organization to support that effort.

I used to (and still am) concerned about including postings of military train movements seen on some message boards, but agree with another poster here that this war buildup has been so publicized, with knowledgeable pundits (usually retired generals) revealing war scenarios, troop deployments and destinations on national TV, that I can't imagine how railfans could even remotely be considered a threat.

Links of interest on this topic:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A56984-2002Nov14

http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf

http://archive.aclu.org/library/know_your_rights.pdf


Rob
3ri.com

[Anonymous]

1. In A FREE COUNTRY, why does anyone need a permit to do ANYTHING on PUBLIC PROPERTY? (those of you who tried to shift the discussion to tresspassing on private property missed the point here) This isn't 1940. Our enemies have volumes of data from books, mags, internet, and spy satellites. They don't need to stand trackside to do harmful things.

2. When will all the people taking pictures of the shuttle and tracking it (using government-sponsored web sites!) be harassed/arrested? Oh, turns out that was HELPFUL, wasn't it?

3. No one look up! You might see an airplane overhead...

I am more than fed up with Bush's tyrannical tendencies. I don't agree with the often-quoted statement "the world has changed". There has always been the threat of terrorism ever since man invented weapons that could be used beyond an arm's length. I grew up under the Cold War threat from Russia. We are in no more or less danger that any other nation or people have been in before. As long as there exists any fanatic group of fundamentalist nuts who think their religion or way of life (government) gives them the right to kill others over their differences, no one is safe.

The better choice is for all of us fans, railroaders, property owners, and government workers to be POLITE, TOLERANT, and OBSERVANT toward each other. Don't make enemies of your friends by acting stupid. Respect the fact that there are people who are interested in different things, and that people at work don't want to be distracted. When appropriate, ask permission. At the same time, if you know you are within your rights, firmly but repectfully disagree.

If none of us protect our rights at times like these, there soon won't be any rights to protect. Document, and when appropriate take whatever legal action it takes to remind those who think they are in charge who IS in charge of this country. And vote in the next election.

We may not be known for much, but in Alabama I grew up knowing a little Latin: "Audemus jura nostra defendere" means: "We Dare Defend Our Rights."

[louisnash]

If a man takes a job and he has a set of rules to follow and he can't follow all of them seems to me like he is a risk to the employer. You take a job on the railroad with rules just like any other job with rules. If you cant't follow them like you are supposed to then quit before you get hurt. Like I said one day one of you RR guys/gals may need the assistance of one of us railfans and it may come down to us turning the cheek on you. You never know one of those pictures may benefit you. Or we may just say," the heck with you, get your help yourself. We're not allowed on your RR property. To much of a risk." So get over it.

[Anonymous]

Martin,
The war on terrior is over when the governmwnt has complete control of your lives in the one world order Police state. Which we the sheeple are handing it to them. Ill take photos and watch trains and read railroad magazens while waiting for trains as long as God lets me live
Mike W

[rckingsnorth]

Re: Article
Please let me sign up to be a card-carrying railfan. I like Jake Jacobson’s optimistic partnering. I would be pleased to be part of the “neighborhood watch”. The administrative load in a place like Cajon Pass or Colton yard, California, would be daunting. On the many beautiful days in these spots, the number of railfans makes the tracks look like a parade route. Probably enough company to intimidate the terrorists. It would be impossible to cause trouble with so many knowledgeable fans around. The railroads should encourage the crowds, …on public property.

Trespassing is a no-no, but Richard Whitenight’s harassment on public property by the FBI sounds unforgivable. Are there any legal types that can come to his aid? I would like to see a full list of the FBI chain of command in that instance that condones that government action. I believe an apology and an annulment of the “letter” are the least Mr. Bush could offer. And I would encourage the UP to get over their paranoia, and invite Mr. Whitenight to tag along with one the crews for part of a day. The railroads should be encouraging their supporters, not alienating them.

I chuckle over Jim Satterwhite’s experience. Who else but a certifiable railfan would chase a train in a car? Surely the KCS crew should recognize the antics of a railfan. I hesitate to predict the mind and actions of a terrorist, but taking pictures of the same local freight train along the line does not sound threatening to me. Fortunately, most of the cases that TRAINS cited ended with nothing more than “please move along”, and a tremendous waste of time by the “officials”.

Perhaps the terrorists are winning.

Look what we are doing to ourselves.

[rckingsnorth]

Bryant Kaden:
That's a commendable, common sense approach. Let's go about our lives, respecting others. Thanks.

[Anonymous]

I work next to NS tracks, own stock in NS (it's my railroad too) and I keep the NS Police phone number on me. Calling 911 on a cell phone will get you the state police, who may not be in the area. I also keep local police phone numbers handy too. If the police do search you and find several police agency phone numbers in your phone book, I would think it could help your case.
Big Brother is barking up the wrong tree when interrogating railfans on public property. Somehow I just can't imagine terrorist posing as a railfan for a cover. Like in Vietnam, "Charlie don't surf", Ali don't railfan. I live in East Dearborn Michigan which has the largest Arabic population in the USA. I know my neighbors are much more a road hazard (running stop signs, red lights and just poor driving skills) than a national security problem. I wonder how many subscriptions to TRAINS are held by someone with an Arabic name? They do have railroads in the Middle East but are there railfans too?
More likly terrorist would blend in as someone who looks like they work for the railroad. It would be an advantage to have a railfan taking their photo in case anything happened later.
Theft, vandalism and possible derailments is more commom and a good reason to stay clear from railroad property. I believe it is in the best intrest of the railroad if there were a way for rairoad police and railfans to become familiar, if not friends, with each other. Often you can, and should, meet a railroad police officer at at model train shows. The railroads can explain the rules on safty for us railfans to follow and what to do if we see anything that's not right.

[Anonymous]

Security at the cost of freedom is tyranny!

[oldsoundguy]

1. The US constitution is only as good as the people in charge of upholding it. The current administration is not doing a very good job. This will have to be remedied at the next election.

2. Remember that private property is PRIVATE.

3. In your car carry the current (and replaceable) copys of TRAINS, MODEL RAILROADER, RAILFAN AND RAILROAD and RAILWAY MODEL CRAFTSMAN. A Pentrex catalog would also help. These can be used to educate any law enforcement types that the hobby exists.

4. But remember, railroads are vulnerable, especially at bridges and where there are switches. There IS a real danger at present so play it cool and practice courtesy.

5. --- I also worry that some photolab will see your train pix and call the fuzz. ---

[Anonymous]

Number One--calling a railroader like wabash a bonehead is reason enough for many railroaders to not like railfans. Step into his shoes for a minute. You may not like his opinions, but he has very valid reasons for them. Those pictures taken of him and his crew members may, to the tiniest of degrees, be enough of a "rules" violation to get them time off. Try knocking off a handbrake while upholding all the "safety" rules the railroad has. Railfanning and railroading are quite different. The rules and the real world seldom meet.

[edblysard]

I keep telling them we are not all fan haters...
Ed

[edblysard]

Hi CSS,
From a railroader who dosnt mind fans, a word of advice. Try some proactive measures. If you have a favorite train watching spot, or a favorite railroad you "railfan", find out who the Chief of the Railroad Police is. If you spot one of the officers on patrol, flag him, or her, down. Introduce yourself, you will find most of them are already familar with fans, and the "odd" behaviour they have. If you have one of your business cards with you, give it to them, and ask where they would suggest you watch from. If you have any questions about what is and isnt rr property, ask them, they are sure to know.
See one of them watching a yard, or guarding a train, go buy them a cup of coffee. You will be pleasently surprised to find out most of them really dont consider you a threat, as long as your off property, they really could care less if you want to watch. By taking the lead, and showing them you pose no threat to them or their railroad, most of them will not only leave you be, but will watch out for your safty as well. Face it, most yards and hot spots for watching trains are not in the best of neighborhoods, and dusk or evening isnt the safest time to be around them. And anyone hanging around in a car deserves to be checked out, its only standard opperating policy. Wouldnt you want the cops to check out someone sitting in front of your house in a car, doing nothing but watching?
As for the paranoid of us who assume we will be facing the gestapo when approached by rr cops, understand that they have a job to do. Most dont want to arrest anyone, it involves a lot of paperwork, time "downtown", dealing with the local police force, so on. What they want is for the fans to keep off the property, not so much to stop terrorism, but to protect the railroad from liability, in case you get hurt on the railroads property. The fact that, as of this date, only three arrests have been made on my railroad since sept 11th, two for theft, and the other, well, the guy was so drunk he walked down the middle of the yard, straight into the side of a parked locomotive, pretty much stopped his clock. No choice on that one. What our police force has been ordered to do is arrest anyone on railroad property, (read that part again, ON RAILROAD PROPERTY) who can not produce a photo ID showing themselves to be a employee, or service person, in the employeement of the railroad. Minors are to be detained untill a parent or guardian can accept custody of them, adults are to be processed through the local police force, and the FBI is to be notified. Our police chief made it very clear, he stressed the point repeatedly, only those found on railroad property. They know most of the fans here, and advised them of this as time and chance permitted. Most of the local fans have never tresspassed, and show a healthy respect for the equipment. Yes, one or two bad apples can spoil it for the rest of yall, as can one bad cop give a bad reputation to the rest of the police officers. And remember, if it walks like a duck, and quacks, well... Hiding in the bushes trying to get a photo of that old caboose stashed in the middle of a yard will look pretty funny to a cop. On the other hand, if you approach him, and ask if you can, or ask if he would, and he agrees, hand him you camera. If you happen to have a ice cold soda waiting for him when he brings your camera back, who knows, you might get a little "offical" access to some areas you never expected. It has happened here once or twice. If you treat them like people, most of them will recriprocate.
All that said, consider this. Just because it was written in a magazine, or a newspaper for that matter, dosn't make it the gospel. I subscribe to Trains, along with a few industry and trade magazines. I have found that, for the most part, they do try to present the "facts" as they know them, but they do make mistakes. Trains published a story on my railroad a few years back, and it contained a few errors. But, and this is a big but.. what they print is their or their reporters interpertation of the information they have, information often provided by the railroad itself. You dont think Enron would have told a reporter from the Financal Times the truth about their accounting pratices, do you? So why would a railroad give any more factual truth to a reporter, unless it serves the railroads best intrest, and enhances its public image?
So use your two most valuable assets, courtesy and common sense.
Dont tresspass, be polite if approached by the railroads police or officers, cooperate up to the point, if it comes to it, that they tell you that you cant take photos. If your are on public property, stand your ground. If your in the right, they should leave you alone. But you have to determine how far you wish it to go, and what level of harrassment you wi***o tolerate. Remember, there are a lots of railroads and railroaders, and a bunch still welcome fans.
Stay frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

I to am a 51 year in the industry retired railroad operating managment employee and a Rail Buff all my life.This article, "is it un American to be a rail fan" in April Trains really bothers(to say the least)me. The railroad industry needs friends both shippers, passengers and railfans. I will admit there are many so called rail fans that trespass, steal and be an all over pain in the *** to the industry. When I was stationed in Meadville Pa. on the EL, I asked my superintendent if we could have a railroad weekend and open up all the facilities to the public, after he fell over laughing he said to me don't I give you enough to do I already worked 7 days a week so what is the diffrence.He said it was ok with him as I will take all the responsibility if it is a disaster. It was in 1969 and I got volunteers from off duty operating and mechanical people We got school bus drivers with their busses and we put 20,000 people thru the property in the 2 days people came from Pittsburgh, Erie, Cleveland and all over we had a ball and the news papers commended the EL for allowing this to happen. WE MADE FRIENDS. something we have to make today. This government is taking our freedoms away daily and this is all a way that they can control people in the guise of terrorism. CONTROL is what they want and the railroad industry listens to them. I am fed up with identification to show all the governments abc people DIDN'T HITLER 'S PEOPLE ask for YOUR PAPERS!! I was alive then and they did this. What is the diffrence today. Yes private property is private property BUT the responsible rail fan could still be a part of the industry. I suggest that the railroads could help the rail fan plus make a little money and SPECIALLY MAKE A FRIEND that will help them in the long run. Yes the rail fan is a pain in the *** BUT a necessiary pain. My suggestion was to have rail fans that want to photo or visit the property (not in a crowd) The rail fan would have to attend a yearly rule and safety seminar with a test that has to be passed paid for by the rail fan and then he would sign a contract to take ALL responsibility for his actions relating to his physical health on the company property. He would be given an ID tag to be worn while on the property so all employes would know he a visitor. If he does not act responssible he will have his Tag removed and asked to leave. Yes I know you are all laughing at this by saying WHY WOULD A COMPANY WANT TO DO THIS? I have an answer to this this railfan that has permission with his tag will look out for the railroad in many ways. In my lifetime I saved 3 railroads from BIG derailments and delayed trains. I didn't have to do any of this but I felt I owed my industry a hand. Just to mention one I was on the highway along the BN and I saw a coal train with a defective car smoking not a hot journal. other. I raced ahead and gave the engineer a stop signal and he stopped and I took the headman back to the problem and they set the car off a few miles ahead. Another time while I was at school at Electro motive in La Grange ,Ill. on my off hours I went up to the station to watch the commuter trains. A westboung freight was roaring by me and it came to a stop I could see they had trouble. I went to the locomotive and told the engineer that I was a RFofE out east and I asked him if I could help. He said yes and after changing out a ER regulator from the 2nd unit they were off and running in 30 minutes mechanical people were just leaving Cicero yard.
You see some railfans will be an aset not a libility. I am ashamed of the KCS's attitude to the railfan, he wasn't given a chance. Government wants control and we are giving it to them. Did we loose to the terriorists........I think we did
M.C.Wikman

[Anonymous]

Regarding the April 03 Trains Mag, "Is Being a Railfan Un-American"?

No, it is not un-American.

However, "Railfans" desiring to take photos on railroad property should be required to register with the railroads "Security Police" and obtain written permission, "pass" or whatever the railroads "Security Police" decide on and retain this on their person. This "permissive pass" should designate the specific area covered by this special permission, NOT cover an entire railroad or division and must have a validation period, i.e. good from (date) - (date).

Situations regarding travel on a train or following on an adjacent highway for "distances" for the purpose of taking photos can be dealt with on on an individual basis.

Dave W. Pepper
WP&YR Superintendent, Retired

[Anonymous]

Tim I have never been arrested for taking photographs of anything.

[Anonymous]

I agree with both Mr Burgess,And Mr Bradleys veiws, No doubt,The News does more damage than any of us with a 35mm in a public parking lot!!!,
However I do side with the Railroads for safty sake,How often do we read where a railfan is injured?Not to get off subject,But for exsample, I was a Captain of Arson investigation for 11 years,As well as a fire buff, I questioned both buffs and curious on lookers at large fires,And at times told photographers to get back,My point, If I couldn't tell good from the bad,ThenI'm sure the railroads cannot either.But I did get to know a few groups and they were invauble to me in helping keeping a look out for supects, As TRAINS mentioned,The Railroads could/would enjoy a closer relationship with its fans,
I too,Would enjoy organized events and tours,And As for myself, I'd pay a couple of bucks for some sort of wacky lincense like one gets for fishing and hunting. Just a thought.

[css2005]

If it's such a percieved problem for us railfans to be well informed about railroad operations and facilities I wonder how come the government doesn't have Trains magazine stop printing stuff like that nice useful list of 96 current major classification yards which ironically appears in the same "UnAmerican To Be A Railfan?" issue? So in one way the magazines that are promoting the hobby are also hurting us if it's looked at in a certain light - particularly from the government side of things. Personally speaking I believe I have the right and freedom to watch/photograph trains from public property (which does NOT mean it's okay to do so on railroad property) for my own enjoyment. The problem is security forces that don't understand the hobby (thus making it hard to explain it's only a pleasure hobby) or the railroad employees that hate railfans. In fact certain employees could use lessons on how to better interact with the public since they start out by yelling and ordering one off the property. That happened to me once but the kicker was that I was not on railroad property but public property! This individual just didn't want anyone near the tracks despite the nearest track being 50 feet away which wasn't even his railroad. Now I do realize there are soem 'bad apple' employees like there are a few railfans who are bad apples as well. What I think may be needed is a nationwide program to educate railroad employees (especially RR police) about railfans and set up a database/ID card system for railfans. This way we'll be on record as railfans should we be checked out thus lessening possible major misunderstandings as to intent on a railfan's part for the purplose of pictures, etc. I also don't mean such a ID card system to be a license to go onto railroad property. Rather it would act as letting authorities know you're considered a harmless railfan instead of being Mr. Terrorist or whatever they think. Unfortunely this issue won't be solved easily or quickly and I only hope common sense prevails on both sides before some minor incident is misunderstood and makes things worse. Basically all I hear is how railfans are a problem yet also hear 'people will always watch trains' - but those are the same things! Hopefully some acceptable solution will be found soon to satisfy both sides of this issue but I doubt that will occur......

[Anonymous]

As a railfan of some 50 years standing, and a retired railroader with 34 years in management (SR & CSX), I can understand both sides. When I travel AMTRAK, which is often, I take two suspicious objects, a camera, and a pocket scanner. Ordinarily, I don't take very many pictures of trains as I can find better ones than I can take, on the Internet. However, I would submit that a good solution would be for Railfan's to register with their preferred road, with law enforcement providing some of the expense. A simple photo-ID with the toll free number of the preferred road on it would accomplish several things at once. If a railfan were detained, he would have proper "papers" so that the matter could be settled quickly. Secondly, if the railfan saw anything unusual or suspicious, he would have a number to call to report it. I submit that there are very few, if any other industries, that have such a loyal group of "spies" interested in them. If I see somebody climbing on the Ortega R. bridge (Jacksonville, FL, where I live), you better believe I am going to report him, unless I know it is a rail worker.
I use a scanner when traveling just so I know what the delays are, and purposely do not monitor the on-board frequency which is a private channel and should be honored as such.

J. H. Sullivan, P.E. (retired)

[louisnash]

Hey railroad man. One day you might need the assistance of one of those railfans out there on the road. Whether you're sick or in an accident. So just calm down already. Another thing if you are that good of a railroad man then you shouldn't be worried about doing things wrong to get you fired if your picture is taken. If you hate railfans that bad why are you on this internet site. It is for railfans> Unbelievable!!!

[Anonymous]

In Italy, where I live, people are currently trying to stop military trains from rolling into Camp Derby and other bases in my country. Obviously, THEY ARE NOT RAILFANS. They only see the railroad being used for military purposes. That doesn't necessarily mean they will not complain about poor train service the following morning, when the same people commute!
As a railfan, I am NOT allowed to shoot at military trains, but I am increasingly being perceived as a "strange folk" even when I try to take a good shot at a train.

[Anonymous]

Hey bonehead - he said he was not on RR property, read before you post.

I also have felt that Office of Homeland Stupidity is the first step of a slippery slide towards Facism.

[Anonymous]

Seig Heil Mein Ashcroft!!!!! The Federalized BUMBLING IDIOTS have nothing better to do than to go after an easy target! I think we're now an official police state...no telling what the Nazi's will have in store for the American public down the road.

[Anonymous]

As usual, it boils down to common sense, something that seems to be in short supply lately.
Even before 9-11, there were things I did (and still do) to make myself less conspicuous around the tracks. I stick to public property, I try to stay highly visible (in view of a major highway, businesses, etc.), I bring along old pictures I've taken to prove I've been doing this as a hobby for a long time, I bring along a book about something other than trains to read (nothing says non-Muslim extremist like a Bible or Luther's catechism), and I usually keep a spare bottle of water, soda, or juice around to offer to an officer in case one happens to stop. This is usually a well-received gesture, especially in the summer.
I guess my point is that some people deserve to have their rights limited (i.e. - breaking the law by tresspassing, etc.), but for those of us who choose to obey the law, not because some bureaucrat shoves them in our faces but because we have respect for others, then this should be a non-issue. Hasn't everyone been saying the best thing to do to prevent terrorism is to go about your lives as usual? Well that's what I intend to do, and if someone has a problem with this hobby, then that's their problem, but there's nothing they can do to make me stop watching trains as a good, honest leisure-time activity.

Bryant Kaden
Fremont, NE

[Anonymous]

HERE! HERE!

[Anonymous]

Race should not be brought into this conversation.I know alot of hard working Americans of all nationallities.Terrorism comes in many forms.It could be some teenagers going out on a friday night because they have nothing better to do.Being a railfan and an american we should be on the lookout for anyone who doesn't belong.The people of the railroads have a right to do their jobs as best as they can.As railfans we can be the extra eyes and ears to help them.
thank you
Joe

[Anonymous]

Let's face up to the bottom line, the average railfan is not an arab. Why don't we just deport this group of people, and let Americans get on with their lives. I didn't spend my time in the Corps so I could be restricted from taking rail photos on account of some rag head.

[wabash1]

Well paul, this is the biggest load of crap i have ever heard. 1st off it dont matter to me that you was in the last gulf war, so was my brother and we dont brag about that. The mear fact that It is not public property should tell you that if we dont want you around you should leave. As a citizen of this country it dont give you any rights to be on railroad property. As a tax payer myself who by rights own part of our military dont give me the right just to go on any base in this country. I can get on military instalations if my sponser signs for me. Now look at it from my view point. I dont go to work looking to get killed and i am not infavore of having anyone mess with the tracks. In fact the railroad i work for has people patroling the rails 24hrs a day. So dont come down here with that holyer than thou attitude that i can and i will do as i please around railroad tracks. The constitution did not give you this right and if its my train and my life then this overzealous engineer sees you messing around the tracks and my manditory directive from my powers to be says have you arrested. then i will call and have you arrested. And it is guys like you that do make it harder for the rest of the railfans. I myself dont like railfans with cameras as they take pictures of things that either i or my crew members might be doing wrong and can get us fired.

[Anonymous]

I totally agree with what this gentleman said and he is absolutely right. Lets start questioning the Baseball photographers as well. My brother was in the Marine Corp, my Dad was in veitnam for four tours, my Grandfather was in WWII, our freedom should not be taken away. I also agree with not trespassing on Railroad property, but it isn't fair that we get chased away from stations and platforms. I worked with BNSF and Metrolink on there Christmas trains and I will say that Railfans are pretty good people.

Andy
from North Hills CA.

[louisnash]

This is not a reply but a word to say that I agree with Paul B. Maybe they (OUR Government) should start telling anyone not to take pictures of our national landmarks. Maybe those pictures could get into the wrong hands. OH! I forgot. All a terrorist has to do is watch CNN,TLC,Discovery Channel,etc. to find out about our national security. They tell everything. I can't see what the big deal is. A railfan is the railroads friend and if anyhthing looked suspicious they would be the first to report it. We are losing our freedom to have hobbies. Maybe OUR GOVERNMENT needs to let us live our daily lives as normal as we did before like they want us to and OUR GOVERNMENT needs to get out there and find the threat and and get rid of it. Find the problem(terrorist) and leave us alone.Let's close down the tourist railroads as well and the museums, Lord knows what impact our pictures might have then. It's just amazing that they haven't yet. If the people that run our government had any sense to them they would start shutting down the TV stations that tell you everyday what a terrorist needs to know. It's just amazing. They are worried about us but not ABC,CBS,NBC,CNN,FOX,TLC,Discovery Channel,etc. They are doing far more damage to our society than we would even dream of. It's OUR GOVERNMENT not theirs, they are elected by us and it is our constitution. We have the right to be heard and take pictures, not on RR private property, but we have that right. Thank-you Brian Gregg

[Anonymous]

I see the railroads point, but also see the our point. I think the railroads should set up a system or number to call, so railfans like us could give them our names, tag number and any other information they need, so we can continue to do what we love and they will know, right off that were not a threat to them and that were often there eyes and ears for problems, they may not see.

Thomas,
Huntsville, AL

[Anonymous]

We weren't that paranoid during WWII. There was probably not all the vadalism and graffiti. It was a quieter more innocent time. We have been tearing things up for years,there is no respect anymore. 9/11? Is it a well needed excuse to keep railfans out of their hair?
When I railfanned heavily for about eight years I got talked to my railroad police one time. Sounds like things are a lot worse today.

[Anonymous]

GOOD question! Answer: Nope!!! Been doing
a great deal of railfanning since retiring nearly six years ago. And, to be honest, did my railfanning on public AND private (RR) property.
Never had a problem. Been asked what I'm doing, why I'm there. Gave an honest answer and was told simply to be careful and/or "Have a nice day." One thing for sure, I am not going to lose any sleep over all of this... nor am I going to stop doing what I have enjoyed doing. Infact,
I was out early this morning video taping trains along the "Water Level Route" (NS) and got three
nice ones before departing for church.
I said it before and I'll say it again: "It's great to be an American!"

[Anonymous]

Not exactly a reply to anything already written, rather a reply to the article in the April issue of Trains. At no time did I ever consider myself UnAmerican, before 9-11 and after 9-11. I do a lot of railfanning, taking photos and shooting video.. even produce train videos for sale. I'm amazed that such a term would even be considered for a true railfanner. I see what's going on in this country in the name of "Liberalism," abortion, child pornography, etc.,etc., and this is considered to be the American way in the land of the free. But heaven forbid that a couple of old "farts" should stand near the rails to admire and take photos of these majestic behemoths. I guess I am somewhat blessed in my neck of the woods (extreme Northern Ohio), our railfanning group has never been hassled. On occasion police have stopped to ask what's going on; and when told, smile, greet us with a "Have a nice day," and drive off. Infact,
more often than not, the locomotive engineers greet us with a few toots of the horn.. all of which is what makes this such a great country.
Happy to be a Real American!

[Anonymous]

arrested no.Asked to leave railroad property by employee yes.But as far as railfanning being unamerican is crazy. Not when here in ohio itself you have bellevue(NS)Fostoria(csxns)and deshler(csx) all working to attract railfans.since the ironhorse was invented people came from all around to see what the train brought in.passive or very active I think everyone was or is a railfan at one time or another.

[Anonymous]

I have a question for all the railfans. Has anyone been arrested for watching or taking pictures on Pubilic property? I do not mean questioned I mean arrested? For that matter have you heard of or been Arrested for watching on Private Railroad property? I hear a lot of talk, but has anyone out there been Arrested for being a Railfan??
TIM A

[Anonymous]

Hello to all the railfanners out there...
I don't complain about much, and I'm new to the world of railfanning myself, but the article in this months Trains magazine has got me a little upset. I agree with the view most other people in the forum have--the government is going overboard with this anit-terrorim crap! Its getting so bad that people will never fly again, trains will stop rolling, and the high fuel prices will choke trucking to a halt. I enjoy all types of transportation...(mostly aviation) but the railroads interest me too, and now the U.S. government is trying to regulate that. So what do they want us to do...sit at home all day and worry about what is going on outside our doors? I understand the need for security, but you know what, if these so called "Security" agencies were doing their job prior to 9/11 we wouldn't have this mess! So much for the Constitution and all the veterans who gave their lives for freedom in this country--it is almost non-existent now. I, too am a former Marine and it saddens me to know that this country has been reduced to this new communistic democracy where the government feels they need to know everything about everybody and tells everyone what they can and can't do. I guess my children will never get to see a train, airplane, ship, or truck up close as I did when I was young...and how about the people who operate these monster machines...is the government going to evaluate every aspect of their lives (including their financial status?) I just wish we could all step back by about 20 years...when life was normal! I guess we just have to deal with all this now and get used to it.
Carrick

[edblysard]

What about the Bund?
Theres a scary thought...

[Anonymous]

"The first time I heard the phrase "Homeland Security" all I could equate it with was KGB, or SS"

The first time I heard this "new" term the very first thought that went through my head was "Oh shi*" sure sounded a lot like Fatherland to me and is now looking like it to. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, its a duck, which is what we had all better practice doing.

[Anonymous]

"By the way, do you suppose that we, as subscribers to TRAINS, will become "suspects" in some database? Paranoid? Perhaps"

There is a fine line between paranoid and realism and brother, you are far from crossing it. The internet itself is a gargantuan profiler but it started way before that. Ever wonder why that junk mail that showed up in your snail mail box was different than your brothers? It sure isn't coincidence.

Go on the internet to some site that tells you how to build a bomb or anything else that might be "suspicious" and see if you aren't answering a suits questions the next day or soon thereafter.

[Anonymous]

As soon as "We the people, in order to form a more perfect union......" replaces "I the government, in order to grow and control you morons"..........again.

[edblysard]

Forgot to add, yes, good idea the poster had, organize a club, or if you belong to one now, go speak with you local railroad or the division super, sit down together and see what you can get accomplished. If Flationia (the middle of nowhere) in Texas can get UP to ok a train watching pavalion in town, I bet you and your local super can get as much, maby even more done. Contact your local Operation Lifesaver group, see if they can help. Talk to your mayor, or city councile or selectmen, who knows, they and the railroad may just like the idea. If there is a chapter of the NHRS around where you live, go talk to them. Like I said, griping without action gets you nothing. The worst they could say is no...
Ed

[edblysard]

Wow, and I thought my post stired up the crap...
Go sic'em Paul, we will scrap up the bail money somehow.
In all seriousnes, as both a fan and a railroader, I can tell you that most of us, (railroaders) dont mind one bit. It the one bad appple story though. And yes, some of the federal agencies are over reacting and using 9 11 as a excuse to abuse their new powers. The only way to stop them is to use your voice, and the loudest voice you can use is your vote. Let your elected representives know you intend to use it, and use it loudly. The first time I heard the phrase "Homeland Security" all I could equate it with was KGB, or SS. It just boggled my mind that Americans would allow something that dangerous to become a part of this country. No, you will never stop a determined terrorist, we proved that in WWII, when we employed the same tatics in Europe. Yes, I am more afraid of the new national police that the terrorist, mainly because the SS/KGB now wears a little American Flag in their lapel, and thinks he is doing the "right" thing. The fear of having "them" come check "us" out, and maby arrest us as being unloyal, is exactly how the SS/KGB held so much power, so long. Stand up and speak, tell washington you peferred the old America, where you were innocent untill proven guilty, not suspect till they can figure out a way to arrest you. Its your country, not theirs. We have allowed our national fear of a repeat performance to allow our goverment to proceed with the concept that we, somehow, are to stupid or not capable of protecting ourselves, and somehow we need them to do it for us. Horse crap. Tell that to the guy who said "lets roll", how many lives did those guys save?. Thats what American do, not spy on each other, or harrass some one whos only crime is to like watching trains. Any useful info the terrorist need is free, on the web, or avaiable at the public library. Your Constitution says you can use public property, thats why its called "public" property, instead of restricted property. Stand still, do nothing, keep quite, and sure as shooting, you will lose the very things we have fought so hard and long for, Liberity.
Stay Frosty
Ed

[Anonymous]

I think the problem can be fixed. All you have to do is just use some common sense. 1)Don't go onto railroad Property. 2)If you do get "Talked To" on public property treat the officer as a human too.
They're just out doin' thier jobs too. 3)If you are the member of a railroad club you might want to think about organizing what I Call a "Security and Safety Summit. My local train group had one tonight (3/1). It was a sucsessful endeavour and by the time it was over we had all been enlightened to what each other does for a living/hobby. I think railfanning is "FAR" from Un-American! You couldn't be any more American than to stand by and watch a train pass.

[Anonymous]

Well said, Paul. The current climate of paranoia and the existence of overzealous bearucrats is a far greater and more subtle threat to our freedoms than any Al Caeda zealot with explosives.
We will come to view restriction and control as "normal" and "in our best interest" and our freedoms will be slowly ground away. Whether the freedom is posession of firearms or involvement in railfanning it will be at the whim of a beaurocrat.
The article pointed out that several railroaders consider fans a valuable resource to be used as eyes and ears for the physical plant. I am surprised that more railroads don't share that view. Who would be more motivated, an involved railfan looking at "their" railroad or an hourly employee in the security department?
By the way, do you suppose that we, as subscribers to TRAINS, will become "suspects" in some database? Paranoid? Perhaps. But look at what the airlines are doing with the new "profile" system being developed for air travelers. Reportedly, they will search the same databases a credit card company would to determine credit scores, among others.
And we thought 1984 was just a novel. It was prophesy.
Thanks,
Charles Kneipp
Keithville, LA
p.s. To any beaurocrats snooping, yes I'm talking about you. If the shoe fits...
By the way, beaurocrat, I was in the Navy and my prints should be of file with the Defense Department. Just thought I would help you out.

[Anonymous]

I'm very sorry, but the solution is to tell the police and everyone else involved to leave you alone. The railroads have every right to keep any non-employee off their property. I support this, and do not trespass. They nor the federal government have no right whatsoever to say anything to anyone about photographing or watching their operations from public property. The idea that merely photographing a train is somehow dangerous to national security is so pathetic it would be laughable if weren't so frightening. I was watching the Today Show on NBC the other morning. Katie Couric had on retired USAF General Barry McAffery. They had a big map of the Iraq area. General McAffery proceeded to tell Katie on live national TV all about where our troops, ships, and planes are, how many, where they were most likely to attack Iraq if there is a war, when the war might start, what tactics they would most likely use, what sorts of weapons they have, etc. He pointed it all out on the map. And WE'RE a threat to national security taking pictures of trains from public property? Come on. We are kidding, right??? If terrorists want to blow trains up, there are a million places to watch them first from well out of view of any security agency, and not from lineside with a camera. Shall we chase people out of malls, churches, and restaurants too? Arrest the photographers at the ballparks this summer?

This is not about national security. This is about an overzealous, ignorant federal agency sticking its nose where it doesn't belong. It is about people in the railroad industry who for whatever reason have never liked the railfan community using post 9-11 jitters to pay the fan community out.

If I am asked to move from public property I will politely refuse, and politely and unresistingly accept being arrested. Then I will produce the Honorable Discharge from the US Navy I have including service in the last Gulf war. Then I will retain an attorney and sue the crap put of the US Government and any other agency involved in my false arrest and the violation of my rights under the US Constitution, rights for ALL Americans I swore to protect and fought to defend.

Do not allow yourselves to be intimidated. What is happening is illegal, immoral, and unconstitutional, and as loyal American citizens we have a moral duty not to allow the Constitution to be subverted.

Paul W. Burgess
Homewood, IL

[Anonymous]

I understand that you should stay off of railroad property. I do not understand or agree with the goverment restricting photography of anything while on public property or one private property wtih owners permission.
In central Illinois there are several prime spots the I can take photo's of UP or NS while on private property that the owners gave permission to occupy.
I remember a quote from a most famous person from the past who stated ...."anyone who may trade any freedom for security deserves nether". This famous stateman was B. Franklin.
I'm afraid of my fellow americans restricting my fredom more that the terrorists.
The artical in April Trains recalls WWII America and that the restriction were lifted after the war. When will this war on terror be over?