I HAVE NEVER BEEN TREATED SO BADLY BY A RR EMPLOYEE

[jsoderq]

Back to the original post. They asked you to leave and you did not. You are lucky the cop didn't do more (probably did not want to do the paperwork). This is going to happen more and more. Yes, terrorists do photograph trains and security will always become a bigger concern. As more and more people confront rr employees there are going to be more incidents like this and eventually the police are going to start arresting people. Have the time and money for a lawyer? Just move on when asked!

[ALCOC415]

I run a shortline here in Illinois and we have one real oddball unit an ALCO C415. The rest of our power is plain jane geeps. We get a lot of railfans and I don't mind them too much even going as far to talk to them. What I don't accept is the railfan that comes onto the property and acts like he can do what he wants. This will get you a free trip to jail. Our yard borders some city property and some railfans have been in the yard off of city property and when told this they generaly move back. I will tell you this I do keep an eye on them after being warned and if they are a real problem I write there license plate # down.
Dave

[richardy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

QUOTE:

Made up???????? Why would I make something like this up?????????????

Well hey, don't take it personal, I don't even know you, so my comment is in no way meant as a personal indictment...but yeah, it sounds like a made up story, and here's why: Though it may seem otherwise from yout POV, I assure you that employee had better things to do than cpme hold your hand for hours on end.

He wanted you to go away, and you didn't. Think about that for a minute...what would you do if he came over to your house....and refused to go home when you asked him to leave?

Suppose further, that you threw him physically out of yout house, and he stood on the sidewalk trying to snap pictures through any windows you had open.....

What would YOU DO? Probably call the cops...what did he do? ...why he called the cops, didn't he? That bad old man refused to let you walk all over him,..and now you are mad at him?

GIVE ME A BREAK MAN! If it had been me, I would have called the RR screws for back up and then baited you to wander on the property, just to have an iron clad case.

Me personally, I'm not above trespassing by "accident"...but whenever a railroad employee tells me I gotta go...I go...there will always be anothe tomorrow to try again.

But defiantly playing games with the railroad,.. is ....let's just say "not too smart" and leave it at that.

So, to summarize the fact that you got a RR employee that upset, and managed to stay out of jail...makes the story sound a little bogus.

The reason they did not go to jail is cooler heads prevailed in the two police officers and I must assume the CN guy did not agree to sign a complaint against them. Had the CN guy signed the complaint they would have been arrested and then a very large public relations nightmare for CN would have started. It may very well have made national news. I'm sure he had that in the back of his mind and he wanted to keep his job. Jury's do not like big companies, I have been on four in my lifetime and I listened to the individuals during deliberation, they do not like big companies and a foreign one to boot. These railfans were on an access road not deep in the yard, ask them to leave and not come back; tell them where the property line is but don't call the police. If they do it again then call the police but be prepared to press charges. Once they were on public property they were not his problem any longer but he chose to overstep his authority and harass them.

At the point the CN guy started harassing them on public property he was breaking the law and subject to arrest. The railroaders on this site can support this guy all they want but he is a hothead with no diplomacy skills, probably little education and has no business being a manager. He is a pushy person that gets his kicks out of harassing people thinking he is really someone, I'm sure the railroaders that work for him dislike him but at the end of the day he is really nothing. He does not represent CN in a positive light and had the media been involved, which they would have if there had been an arrest, he probably would have been quickly reassigned or worse.

[Anonymous]

Many innocent activities have been negatively impacted by the increased security following 9-11.The threat of errorist activity has caused many companies to get pretty ___retentive about security. The power company I work for has become much more suspicious of anyone taking pictures whether from public property or not just because it's hard to tell what reasons anyone has for taking them. I fear that railfanning has we have known it for years will not be the same as it once was.

[BudKarr]

There are many people in this world who like the "power" of their "authority." It would seem that this particular CN employee (or contract employee) overstepped the bounds on more than one issue of law.

Now, having said that - your statement about "all of your life" leads one to wonder - just how long a period is THAT? It's an expression people use, but it has no meaning unless someone has lived at lest a credible amount of decades and has had numerous life's experiences. I think you are way short of the mark.

Does that have anything to do with this rude character? Maybe and maybe not. Only you know what happened - since we do not have access to the other parties involved. Was anything done to inflame, antagonize, or otherwise make the situation worse?

Pretty much the same applies to interactions here on the forums. Being where one is not welcome can always set up a conflict.

I fully agree that we all have the right to be in public places to do what is permitted by law, irrespective of what some "Barney Fife" character may say. Been following that credo "all of my life."

Seems like you have an attiude about the adult world - one in which you are going to enter, rather soon I suspect. To make it better - be better.

BK

[chad thomas]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ChrisBARailfan

I am not going to comment on this specific situation, but everyday Americans are giving up more and more freedom. At the rate we are going there may be a time when there are no more freedoms.

And remember, once a freedom is taken it is rarely returned.

YUP[:(]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by richardy


At the point the CN guy started harassing them on public property he was breaking the law and subject to arrest. The railroaders on this site can support this guy all they want but he is a hothead with no diplomacy skills, probably little education and has no business being a manager. He is a pushy person that gets his kicks out of harassing people thinking he is really someone,

Richardy,

You are right about the "harrassing on public property" bit, THAT was a dumb way to go about what the guy needed to do.

But, as far as your assurances that the guy is pushy, and how he gets his kicks, how the heck do you KNOW that for certain? Do you know the guy, were you even there, or are you simply sitting there behind your screen and keyboard and practicing psychology without a license? Seems like you forgot to include the words "I suspect" ot "perhaps" or even "in my opinion" in your free diagnosis.

If it had been me in that RR employee's shoes, this kids mother would STILL be down at the pawn shop trying to hock her jewelry to bail pop and young son out of the clink.

Norfolk Southern has what you might call "safety spys" who go out and observe and make notes if enployees on the job are working according to proceedure. Other RR's may have them as well

This employee that caused so much grief may be under orders to eject trespassers, and was simply protecting his job.......until, that is, the civil rights commission came along for their impromptu recital of the bill of rights.

Where this kid and his dad screwed up is that they should have demanded to talk to this employee's supervisor, that would have settled the problem quick. one way or the other

[richardy]

TheAntiGates:

Okay, I suspect that my description of the CN employee is correct. Happy now?.

You are the pot calling the kettle black. My assurances about the CN guy are no different than your assurances the whole story is made up. Where you there?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by richardy

TheAntiGates:

Okay, I suspect that my description of the CN employee is correct. Happy now?.

You are the pot calling the kettle black. My assurances about the CN guy are no different than your assurances the whole story is made up. Where you there?

Did I say it WAS made up, or that it sounded made up.? There is a difference.

You are young, huh?

I base my entire opinion upon my suspicion that the kid and his pop were less than 100% cooperative, leading to the conflict of personalities.

I've tresspassed on RR property hundreds, if not thousands of times in my life. And encountered dozens and dozens of RR employees, most of the time finding a pleasant conversation,....3 times however, I was asked to leave.

I suppose I could have taunted them by retreatimng 15 feet to public property and defying them to mess with me there, but yanno what? I just found it so much easier to simply say "of course, sorry to have troubled you" and then simply left...

And then I railfan someplace else for a couple weeks, to break any chain of continuity the RR employee might have.

I try to remain mindful that I am visiting "their place" when I go onto private property, and when asked to leave, I treat their request with the same respect I would expect in my own back yard... and specifically do not challenge them by asking where their authority ends (which is what the "public property" defense is, it is a challenge to their authority.

"Why fight battles that don't have to be fought?" is my way of looking at it.

Which strategy is better? well, in 48 years I've only been ejected 3 times, and not once have you seen me griping about how horribly I was abused. I'll let you decide which is worse.


Here is the funny thing, the most recent time i was ejected, (2 years ago) I was near a very busy interlocking , that was next to the main Triple crown yard facility.

I had been out there several hours, all over the place, and saw many many things. Countless yard and engine crews MUST have seen me, I'll bet the length
of time I was there finally got on somebody's nerves, and they decided it was time for me to go... So, they sent a yard guy all the way out in a truck just to tell me to leave..

Pleasant exchange.....The guy told me I didn't belong there and that his boss wanted me gone. I smiled and appologized for the trouble, agreed to leave, and started walking TOWARDS the yard. He stops me again and asks me why I wasn't leaving, and I replied to assure him that I was,...but my car was next to the yard entry, and I was just headed to my car.. so he just smiled and and drove away.

Compare that to this other guys experiance, and you tell me who has a better plan.

A lot of this has to do with the way you treat people... "more flys with honey" etc

[richardy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

You are young, huh?

I base my entire opinion upon my suspicion that the kid and his pop were less than 100% cooperative, leading to the conflict of personalities.

I've tresspassed on RR property hundreds, if not thousands of times in my life. And encountered dozens and dozens of RR employees, most of the time finding a pleasant conversation,....3 times however, I was asked to leave.

A lot of this has to do with the way you treat people... "more flys with honey" etc

I'm not as young as you think, I have considerable life experience. Unlike you I do not trespass unless by ignorance of not knowing the property line. If I knew the line I did not cross it unless invited in by the railroad. With the No Trespassing signs posted everywhere it has not happened in many years.

(OPINION) Your "more flys with honey" statement is interesting because it goes both ways. The railroad employees are part of a business which needs customers to survive. What if the father and son were the brother and nephew of a very large railroad shipper, a railroad shipper that is on the fence about a decision to keep using the railroad or switching to truck and all he needs is a slight pu***o move to truck? The CN guy just gave him the push.

(OPINION) You never know who you are dealing with at any point in time and when you are in business you treat everyone as though they are your next customer because they could be. The railroaders in the yard and on the road are representatives of the railroad as much or more than the salesmen in the office. If they want to stay in business then they need to keep those customers. I treat everyone I meet as though they are my next customer and I have managed to be successful in business for ** years.

(OPINION) There are exceptions, people you know on site are evil and up to no good. I doubt this father and son fell into that category.

[BaltACD]

In view of the security situation that exists today in the free world. All rail employees are being encouraged to challenge ANY, repeat ANY tresspasser that is observed on company property.

The rail operating culture almost ensures that any challenge will not be tactful. Operating rail employees are not hired for their 'Public Relations' abilities.

[chad thomas]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates


Where this kid and his dad screwed up is that they should have demanded to talk to this employee's supervisor, that would have settled the problem quick. one way or the other

That's a good angle. One that I have had much success with in my life. After all, who wants there boss to have to get involved, especialy if he's in the wrong.[;)]

[richardy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BaltACD



The rail operating culture almost ensures that any challenge will not be tactful. Operating rail employees are not hired for their 'Public Relations' abilities.

(OPINION) Then that will contribute to their business failure and the loss of their jobs.

[StillGrande]

Did you take his picture?

[chad thomas]

Yea, If it was me that this guy harrased, I would have taken his picture and said"Thanks, Now I have a sure fire winner for the **** head of the year award." [swg]

[StillGrande]

As far as houses having pictures taken and people poking around on private property and such, you obviously do not live in a historic district. In downtown Alexandria VA, for example, people with townhomes in the area just expect people to be looking in the ground floor rooms of the houses, taking pictures, heck, some even make comments about the decorating. There was an excellent article about this in the Washington Post this week. Got the same thing in Savannah, GA.

Can't control what people take pictures of in public. My old college roommate used to take pictures of roadkill.

[chad thomas]

[(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D] Never heard of a roadkill fan. Now that's a different hobby. [(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D]

[MP173]

The "what if" I framed was based on someone coming in your house and then being asked to leave and then taking pictures from the road.

Hey, look if you guys want to argue this ad nauseum go right ahead. I have been around people who just love to push people's buttons. See how much they can get away with before the person gets upset. To me that is counterproductive.

Compare this with the other Wisconsin thread that is floating around about the three accidents involving cars and trains this week.

In those situations it is clear the people should not have been on the property. What does it take a loss of life or injury before it is understood.

There are plenty of public places to watch train. That is where I will stay.

ed

[trainboyH16-44]

Heres a thread on how to post pics. http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=46236
Hope your pics are good!
Matthew

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173

thing have changed the last few years....get used to it and STAY OFF PRIVATE PROPERTY.

Railroads are extremely dangerous.

Perhaps he did have a bad day...maybe he got his butt chewed out for safety violations of letting someone trespass. Who knows?

Imagine getting hurt or even worse...that would have been bad.

ed

yeah, or....Maybe he's just a typical *** with no sense of decency or civility or friendliness towards strangers. Lord knows there are PLENTY of THOSE around.
Screw that guy. He probably hates his job and hates his life. MAybe he got picked on in gradeschool. Whatever the cause for his hostility, I wouldn't let it bother you. Obviously he's a very unhappy human being, which is something he has to live with...

[chad thomas]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Green Machine

QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173

thing have changed the last few years....get used to it and STAY OFF PRIVATE PROPERTY.

Railroads are extremely dangerous.

Perhaps he did have a bad day...maybe he got his butt chewed out for safety violations of letting someone trespass. Who knows?

Imagine getting hurt or even worse...that would have been bad.

ed

yeah, or....Maybe he's just a typical *** with no sense of decency or civility or friendliness towards strangers. Lord knows there are PLENTY of THOSE around.
Screw that guy. He probably hates his job and hates his life. MAybe he got picked on in gradeschool. Whatever the cause for his hostility, I wouldn't let it bother you. Obviously he's a very unhappy human being, which is something he has to live with...

That's probably the case. Sounds to me like he needs a good thumpin. Yes he might have a job to do but he doesn't have to be a *** head while doing it.

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Green Machine
yeah, or....Maybe he's just a typical *** with no sense of decency or civility or friendliness towards strangers. Lord knows there are PLENTY of THOSE around.
Screw that guy. He probably hates his job and hates his life. MAybe he got picked on in gradeschool. Whatever the cause for his hostility, I wouldn't let it bother you. Obviously he's a very unhappy human being, which is something he has to live with...

His co-workers are probably glad to hear him grouse about that instead of them for a change.

While rgroeling and his father handled the situation well, it is a confrontational person like that who will sometimes end up in a physical confrontation, or will cause the people who he confronted to go do something like trespass on RR property elsewhere, just to "show" him, if you will.

Tis a far better approach to simply offer that "you're on RR property, we'd appreciate it if you leave, you can see it from over there...", but we knew that. Of course, this person had also bought into the myth that it's illegal to take photos of trains, so short of outright leaving, they weren't going to please him.

[chad thomas]

Some people just need a good old fasion A$$ kickin'.

[Anonymous]

Tis a far better approach to simply offer that "you're on RR property, we'd appreciate it if you leave, you can see it from over there...", but we knew that.

[Randy Stahl]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Green Machine

QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173

thing have changed the last few years....get used to it and STAY OFF PRIVATE PROPERTY.

Railroads are extremely dangerous.

Perhaps he did have a bad day...maybe he got his butt chewed out for safety violations of letting someone trespass. Who knows?

Imagine getting hurt or even worse...that would have been bad.

ed

yeah, or....Maybe he's just a typical *** with no sense of decency or civility or friendliness towards strangers. Lord knows there are PLENTY of THOSE around.
Screw that guy. He probably hates his job and hates his life. MAybe he got picked on in gradeschool. Whatever the cause for his hostility, I wouldn't let it bother you. Obviously he's a very unhappy human being, which is something he has to live with...

I know who this person from the CN is... You pretty much nailed it !!! I used to work for him.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by piouslion

Tis a far better approach to simply offer that "you're on RR property, we'd appreciate it if you leave, you can see it from over there...", but we knew that.

Tree i could not have said it better myself. Compliments and regards - PL

[Junctionfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas

Yea, If it was me that this guy harrased, I would have taken his picture and said"Thanks, Now I have a sure fire winner for the **** head of the year award." [swg]

Well said my friend. Also, if he wants to pretend to be the public police on public property, you got a nice shot of his ugly mug to go with the harassment complaint for the real public police.

[Anonymous]

god have mercy on him. he needs help with whatever character defect he has. i have many myself. being a alcoholic and crack addic ive unloaded on people in the past and have paid for it in jail time. but no more alco or coke since im in aa and na.when god removed my cravings, i treated people now with love and respect. before i was a real grouch and a** h*** !!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE:

That's a good angle. One that I have had much success with in my life. After all, who wants there boss to have to get involved, especialy if he's in the wrong.[;)]

Exactly!! But that broom sweeps both ways, If the complainer HAS been out of line, and deserves to get a sound "spanking", they know that by escalating the stakes, they better have clean hands if they expect to prevail.

I've had "disgruntled" customers who decided to get cute and try to go over my head, and had my supervisor get even more twisted than I had been after the whole story was known.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE:
I'm not as young as you think, I have considerable life experience. Unlike you I do not trespass unless by ignorance of not knowing the property line. If I knew the line I did not cross it unless invited in by the railroad. With the No Trespassing signs posted everywhere it has not happened in many years.

(OPINION) Your "more flys with honey" statement is interesting because it goes both ways. The railroad employees are part of a business which needs customers to survive. What if the father and son were the brother and nephew of a very large railroad shipper, a railroad shipper that is on the fence about a decision to keep using the railroad or switching to truck and all he needs is a slight pu***o move to truck? The CN guy just gave him the push.

Well man, you don't have to get mad, I just asked how young you were because it sounded like you make up your mind based upon initial observations, without trying to weigh both sides of the story objectively....

And snap judgements are great when they are right....but when they aren't you soon learn the value of objectivity.

the "trespassing" I was talking about includes anytime I step onto a ROW...technically anytime you step onto the RR's ballast, you are on private property...you are gonna tell me that you call ahead for permission everytime before you even do that? Well then, you should never have problems like this kid and his dad did, good for you.

My POINT however, was to show that even lowly scumbag trespassers like me can get off easy when caught, if they just use their head and treat the RR employees with a little respect.

As far as if the caught trespassers had ended up being some big shot with a large rail customer.....yeah that could have cost the employee his job....it also could have impressed the big shot so much with the guys dedication, that he offered him a better job wanting a guy with such spirit working for him...Guess we will never know. huh?[;)]