Why don't railroads advertise?

[Anonymous]

About 3 years ago Norfolk and Southern ran some commercials on TV. One of the main feature's of this commercial that was brought out was there symbol, the Thoroughbred Horse. Just today I took the boy's to the store with me. We seen a Triple Crown trailer parked in the store parking lot. My son seen the symbol on the trailer and said, "Look Daddy Norfolk and Southern a railroad Company". My son was 3 at the time he saw the commercial. He is 6 now but he remembered that Symbol from the commercial. That tells me [NO.1] The commercial worked. [NO.2] The Symbol worked. Why did they stop running the commercial? Why don't other railroads advertise? If it worked for a small boy it should work on the general public.
TIM A

[edblysard]

I remember that ad very well, it was a super effective piece of advertising. A cab ride through corn or wheat fields, great shots of the train crossing a truss bridge, winding through fantastic countryside, then the ending, where it seemed the locomotive was comming straight at you, and wham! that black horse on the white background. That ad was run during the conrail break up, and was meant to convince the public that NS could run a railroad better than anyone, and should be allowed to get its part of conrail. It worked. But for the most part, the general public dosnt use railroads anymore, who do you know who uses a railroad? Passenger trains are gone, which was the main way the public interacted and used a railroad, so they dont spend $ advertising to the public anymore. They do spend a lot in their own market place, trade magazines and such. But the railroads would rather the public forget about them, and stay away from the property, for reasons you already understand. There is no need to sell the service railroads provide to anyone but shippers, less that carload shipping isn't done by the general public via rail anymore, there is no need to sell themselves to the public, so why spend the money? But yeah, that was a great add, wasnt it? UP ran a few ads last year, I think during the superbowl, to pump up the moral of their employees and stockholders, and to generate public awareness of their having overcome the SP/UP merger meltdown. Other than that, I cant remember even seeing a Amtrak add since the seventies...
Stay frosty,
Ed

[dicksboat]

Amtrak is advertising its Acela Express on TV in the northeast,Boston to NY to Wash DC.The ads feature the business one can accomplish on the way ,including interior shots of people conferencing across a table,hanging out in the cafe car or enjoying the scenery.Outside shots include a bridge crossing of course.
***

[Modelcar]

...General public doesn't us the railroads anymore....Someone is shipping freight that is keeping most of the big Co's. running. I believe advertising to the general public is still a plus for any business, as long is it is properly executed. On the subject of whether they do or don't advertise anymore...In the Mid West, there are ad campaigns running for N S and Union Pacific on TV. I personally wondered why they did little advertising...and the TV ads really surprised me when they started to run several months ago. I believe the more the general public is aware of railroad services in this country the more potential they will have for business pickup down the road in time.

QM

[corwinda]

I have recently seen ads for both Union Pacific and NS. Usually on the Fox News channel.

[edblysard]

Ok, ok, what I should have said is that small business no longer ships it product in less than car load lots, and most people use Fed Ex, or UPS for small packages. Therefore the railroads no longed advertise in those markets. And I am sure in the regions that have comuter rail, like the Northeast corridor, and LA, San Deigo with Cal Trans do advertise their product, ie public transportation. But for the most part, the railroads think they have nothing to sell the general public, so they dont spend their advertising budget there.
Better?
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[eolafan]

Perhaps you are not exposed to the media in which some railroads advertise...such as Wall Street Journal, etc. but they certainly do advertise. They also run ads on TV (Union Pacific, NS, BNSF) and in the print media (UP, BNSF, NS, etc.). The ads are not very frequent and many appear in very narrowly read trade publications aimed at shipper customers and not the general public except when the RR is making a stock offering or something similar.

[Anonymous]

Tim,
NS still does advertise. There is currently a TV ad shot in Virginia. This time, it's actual video tape shot at one of O. Winston Link's favorite spots, Natural Bridge Station, Virginia. It's a bit surreal, but effective, I guess. NS uses a consultant to help select advertising venues. It shows mainly on CNN and specifically, Money Line. Ads also appear in trade journals such as Modern Railroads, Progressive Railroads, or newspapers such as the Wall Street Journal all targeted at those who make decisions on shipping.
I've also seen recent TV ads from UP and BNSF.
Regards and have a safe day. gdc

[Anonymous]

I have just returned from the library. I looked up the advirtisements for railroads in the newspapers and trade magazine's. All of you have made correct and valid pionts. All the advirtisements that I seen were geared towards the shippers.
I believe that the railroad companies need to starte advirtising to the general public and here is why. Public opinion of railroads is very low. (This site is comprised of railroad workers and railfan's. I hope I have not offended anyone. Please bear with me.)
Example: In Chicago a rail company would park there running engines on a siding. The peaple living around this siding complained about the noise and fumes. The press picked up on it and right away faulted the railroad without hearing there side of the story.
Example: In Antioch Ill. a group of home owners complained to the village council about trains blowing there horn through town distubing there peace. They even tried sueing the railroad. They lost of coarse but they gave the rail company bad pubilisty.
Example: In Mundlien Ill. a railroad did some grade crossing improvements. Trouble is they shut down a major road to do it. Because of that traffic was backed up for miles. The peaple made such a up roar, in the long run the railroad walked away with a black eye.
In any incident, right away the general public and press assume that the railroad is the bad guy. I believe this opinion of the railroad can be fixed with good advirtisement.
TIM ARGUBRIGHT

[Modelcar]

gdc....I have a sound recording by O. Winston Link and record jacket that on it's back is pictured, if my memory serves me correctly, that Natural Bridge Station location...I believe I purchased it about 1958...Some of which was recorded on Christmas Eve 1957. I hope I'm remembering all that correctly. I have seen the commerical you speak of. It runs in the midwest here...

QM

[wallywalkabout]

I live in Colorado. Lately I've seen some great ads on TV by UP. Great photo shots!! and the use of Sam Elliot's voice narrating!! Good for you UP!!

[Anonymous]

That's an interesting concept, Tim. What kind of advertising campaign would you suggest?
gdc

[edblysard]

Good idea, So now tell me what you think the railroads should "sell" to the public?
Not trying to jerk your chain, really want to know. I feel they need to sell a image that tells the public that just about everything they use, from their automobile to the fruit on the breakfast table came part of the way on a train. s. Clue me in on some other ideas!
Am impressed you went and did some research, keep it up. By the way, our libraries have a lot of books by many well know rail historians, you may find some good reading there.
Stay Frosty.
Ed

[Anonymous]

WHAT BETTER WAY TO "ADVERTIES",then run a train pass you or thru a town and doesnt cost much money>>>>>>>>>>AKA HUB

[Anonymous]

Anything is better then nothing.
If I have read my material correctly railroads today have two strong pionts, quality and costs. Believe it or not quality is no.1 and cost is no.2 as compared to the trucking industry. The trucking industry suffers from a 18% damaged goods in transit rate. Railroads suffer a 2% damaged goods in transit rate. (Transportation Jornal 2001 report.) This does not include damage caused by traffic accidents (trucking) or derailments (rail). Yes they are geared for different commodities but regardless, railroads still have better quality.
This fact I believe is what railroads need to advertise to the general public. The railroads need to starte advertising on TV with a slogan, something like "Quality in Motion" or "Quality through Rail". Anything to bring out the quality of rail service. Peaple today see railroads as a squeeky wheel, archaic, bulk transportation. Railroads need to starte advertising there strong pionts of quality. So when peaple see a train they think of high quality low cost transportation. Only then wiil the press and public opinion swing back to there favour.
TIM A

[edblysard]

Sounds good to me, know the address of UP, BNSF and NS's advertising agency?
Stay frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

Ok Tim, I'll be the Devil's advocate
1. Why do you think anything is better than nothing? Is not a misplaced message, at best, wasted? At worst, it irritates and the listener doesn't even remember who you are what you were advertising. Personally, I despise the ads that show a tight shot of someone eating and maybe slurping. Those are just so disgusting, but I probably remember the sponsor and what is being advertised.
2. I think the freight claim (damage) you quote is skewed. Most of railroad traffic that is subject to high volume damage claims move by motor carrier, even when you consider the automobile industry. Railroads carry very little, if any, perishables, furniture, livestock, LCL or other breakables.
3. Shouldn't you also remember that the advertising $$$ be subject to the same requirements as other investments, that is, a reasonable return on the investment...the biggest bang for the buck? Likewise, if you would not make a capital investment in equipment you don't need, would you develop an ad campaign that would get you virtually nothing by targeting the wrong audience?
4. Even if you had the most generous of advertising budgets, would you not target the market that would get you the most? Given that, isn't that what the railroads are already doing? You did the research, you saw the ads. The average citizen does not interact with the railroad on a commerce basis. So a glitzy TV ad in prime time could only reach the market that is already reached in the current program, with the remainder of the responses a shrugged shoulder. 5. The railroads already do a number of PSA's that are appealing to the general public, along with being leaders in a variety of local and national charities and civic events. What more could be done here...how much is enough.
6. If the railroads expanded their media coverage, you have to ask the WIIFM (What's In It For Me), what would be gained?
7. Now, getting away from the advocacy, I think your idea of putting "quality" in peoples' heads is good. Many railroads do that already with slogans. I wish more did it. Remember "Conrail Quality" splashed all over the sides of blue locomotives? That is something that should have survived the Contrail transaction. Put slogans on equipment that the public sees and registers positively, even at a blocked road crossing, what more could you ask?
So what do you think?
Regards and have a safe day. gdc

[Anonymous]

Just my opinion,...but I don't think TV as the medium would reach the target market of "who ships by truck vs rail", in any way that could provoke a decision to try "the other guys" next time.

Chances are, if Rail can best suit your buisness' transportation needs, you probably either already ship by rail, or are located in some area that makes logistics of doing so impractical.

Or, say for instance, you could delect to start serving some of you larger customers by rail, since both your firm and the larger of your customers are on rail sidings, but they have the appearance of being VERY time sensitive on their deliveries, ordering at the last minute and badgering you to fill the order and get it to them in a perenial "emergency" time frame.

Based upon a tv add, would you be willing to "venture" to rail if you had the knowledge that a two day unforseen delay in the delivery could induce them to see you as an "unreliable" supplier?

Lose the account over such "impulse buying" and it is a bit more grave than who makes the tastier pizza.

Besides, with UP, NS, CSX, and BNSF owning most of the store, and at each others throats, it's not like the customer really has a market opportunity to switch from "Railroad A" to "Railroad B" because "Railroad B" has a catchier tune playing behind their 30 second spot.

But Railroads Do get quite a bit of exposure, just think of all those rolling billboards you see roll by at grade crossings...."Hydra-Cushion" "Rolling Timber" "Seaboard Coast" "Fruitgrowers Express"...etc

Question:Would you buy carpet for your living room based upon whether it was trucked of trained into your dealers warehouse?

[Anonymous]

Really the only advertising the the railroads should aim towards the general public is for Operation Lifesaver or something along those lines

[Modelcar]

....Sure does seem unusual for a group of writers to be writing off any railroad advertising because it won't be seen by any "customers"....and will not have any effect. If the general public grasps the understanding that we still have railroads that actually do something and actually are businesses out there that want business surely that message will flow through all kinds of the general public and will influence certain people with responsibility to find out what it is they may be able to do better and perhaps at a better price. Hiding under a stone surely can't help.

QM

[Anonymous]

I'm coming in late on this thread, (since there is no "next" button on these postings, and I get tired of scrolling up and down, and it may have alraedy been said) but advertising to the general public is very important- shippers know who the railroads are but does the public? or does the public even give a hoot? Well if they dont, the railroad brass better, because the decisions regarding money, (not just for amtrak), regulation and possible re-regulation, pollution and environmental controls, etc. are all made by elected officials who hear from people who DO GIVE A HOOT about their interests.

The railroads have NO advocates in the general public- just people who complain to elected officials about blocked crossings, loud horns, un-repaired crossings and everything else that is bad about railroads. I speak from experience being both a former City Manager, and now a Public Works Director, that the RR better get its act together, and get a positive spin on their story, because "they" are out there and they want you out of their way.

Let me tell you, even in a small town the RR never cuts its grass, sprays round-up on the property of adjacent property owners, never maintains the most visable aspects of their operation, never picks up its debris left along the road, and in the case of the CSX here never returns phone calls. ( I had to threaten once to start pulling up the roadbed to get a call returned) Do you think they are building a population here that gives a hoot about the RR's problems? This is a nationwide problem!!

When the RR's face the congress discussing reregulation, or passenger travel, etc. they whine, but do nothing to mobilize any support- why??? Because they spend the rest of the year ignoring or worse, angering that general public.

Something to think about. ---Ralph M.

[Anonymous]

gdc,
Wow, your good! I need to go back to the Library and check on some data. I promise, I will try to have some answer's for you ASAP.
TIM A

[Anonymous]

Ralph, Thank you for the responce. I agree with you. Railroads need to clean up there image a bit. The easiest way to do that is through advertising.
TIM A

[Anonymous]

Ralph, couldn't agree with you more. The RR had better start at least keeping their property clean or debris free. They should realize that nobody wants to have their business next to a trash filled lot owned by a RR.

P.S. Next time you are out fanning and see some trash "Pick It Up" If for no other reason than to leave the place better off then when you got there.

BAA 9.0 Clear

[Anonymous]

1. How do you know it's the railroad's property?
2. If it is, how is an ad campaign going to help clean it up?
3. What kind of trash are you talking about?

[Anonymous]

Sir, I believe you're confusing advertising with public relations. These involve two different concepts. I also hope your municipal attorney advised you about damaging the property of others.
Regards and have a safe day. gdc

[Anonymous]

Tim,
I mentioned this in another post to this same thread, so I'll mention it to you also. Remember the difference between public relations and advertising. They require different approaches.
Regards and have a safe day. gdc

[Anonymous]

Oh here we go with the attorneys again!!!! Wherever the he** you all are from must have one more surplus of attorneys because I can't hardly read a f*@#!%^ post on here lately with out somebody mentioning a GODAMED ATTORNEY!!! JEEEZZZZZZZZZ USSSSSS!!!! If this cat doesn't know destroying or threatening to destroy a railbed isn't a crime, he needs not an attorney, but a suregeon to replace his brain!!!!
Disregards, BS (and lots of it)

[wallywalkabout]

Hi QM, Ralph & Tim A; I'm the one mentioned the UP ad on TV. Glad you can grasp the importance of the general public's recogniztion and support of the railroads. Believe me, as a former Freight Agent, the railroads do advertise where it counts!
Wally

[cabforward]

what is the best way for the r.rs. to impress upon the public that r.rs. are important to them?

it will take a lot of money and a lot of understanding of who should hear the message and tailoring the message to the audience's interests..

much discussion has been made in this forum about safety at grade crossings, passing thru r.r. property, etc. r.rs. must become more pro-active on presenting their views on these issues. the story must be posted in all the media: tv, papers, mags. this is a year-round project, not just until the acccidents go down.. madd produces messages about duis all year long.. the r.rs. must do the same.. they should also visit schools every year and present talks, slide shows, interviews, etc., with students, to project the danger in violating safety rules pertaining to the r.rs. this would be very popular with students talking to r.r. employees who dress as they do on workdays, and handle q&a from students about anything r.r.-related, as in this forum. classes can hold talks afer the visit about what they have learned and write essays and hold picture contests about safety violations by "civilians".. it could spread to an area-wide movement about r.r. safety and kids helping kids to understand the dangers, and adults, too.. this would work especially well in an area with intense r.r. activity ( an area in proximity to r.r. property where tresspassing is commonplace and close-calls and injuries are routine )

r.rs. should become more active in local issues involving r.r. safety, train movements that disturb nearby residents.. minor problems to r.rs., but a big deal to those who live next door to the rail yard.. r.rs. must project an image they have been not been good at for a hundred years, namely, that they care about the issues in communities where r.r. property is vandalized, stolen or otherwise tampered with..
r-roaders say, we've always cared about children crossing tracks, people awakened at night by engine horns and the theft of our customers' shipments.. maybe so, but it doesn't seem to be an issue which is widely-supported by one r.r. or the r.r. industry.. r.r. property crimes are getting worse, right? why? because the r.r. campaign to impress people to keep off the tracks is working? i dont think so..

r-roaders are important to send the message that entering r.r. property is like playing with dynamite.. problem is, the very idea attracts many teens and adults.. the r.r. cos., the schools, city / state govts., the parents must all take an interest in what happens around r.r. property and who's doing it.. r.r. workbooks could be distributed to primary students to complete over time about what they have noticed that is good or bad behavior near r.r. property.

where extraordinary danger exists, schools and law enforcement can work togther to present the case for upgrading crossing safety or stronger controls ( fencing, lighting, etc. ) near yard areas..

r.rs dont need to advertise their name, their presence or the fact they pay more taxes than trucks.. nobody cares about that stuff.. what r.rs. need to advertise is their genuine concern for the safety of children and adults at crossings and property junctures (especially bridges and tunnels), and to offer an opportunity to connect with the r.r. and other agencies of local society in order to increase everyone's awareness of r.rs., their danger in all circumstances, regardless of what appears to be safe or harmless..

r-roaders like to collect memorabila about r.rs.: pictures, artifacts, models and files about r.r. itineraries, slogans, mottoes, etc.. unfortunately, nobody outside the hobby cares about these things.. boxcar slogans, trains penetrating a mountain and horses jumping at you thru the tv set wont move anyone looking for a way to spend money to drop it on a r.r., because a train used to run past their bedroom window as a child..

what will sell most of the public is: safety near the property ( elected officials, parents, r.r. lawyers, insurance cos. ) what fun things can we learn by a visit from r.r. people? (students, teachers, chamber of commerce) how can a display of how-to-behave when near r.r. property improve the community locally and its image regionally? ( taxing districts, business development groups )

long as this message is, it doesn't include all that could be done; some ideas might even be useless.. thats not the point, the point is, do you see something where you live or work that should be changed? is there something you would do about it? do others feel the same way? would the group of you write letters or ask for an interview with a responsible person in one of the agencies mentioned above to initiate a project to solicit community interest in promoting r.r. property safety among everyone who could publicize the message; to those who need to hear the message; and those who, as role models, should take the message seriously?

these suggestions dont need to be excellent; one so-so idea is just fine.. if none of these turn you on, why dont you think of a better one, and let us know what you did with it?

you're on the mainline, and the signal aspect is "proceed".. what are you waiting for?