Why don't railroads advertise?

[edblysard]

Both HB&T and Union Station are gone. Well, the station is still there, just part of Enron Feild, or whatever they decide to call it now. They use it for office space, took up all that marble, it part of the west wall. HB&T was dissolved two years ago, the north west side went to BN, the south east to UP. Seteagast, East, Basin and Booth yards are UP, New South Yard is BN. And you can't really call whats left of the old SP station a station anymore, Amtrak hasnt done much to improve it, or even keep it up. The coach yard hasnt been used by anything but the circus train, (Ringling bros,) for eons. Hardy street yard and englewood are UP, you can still see the hump from wayside, they installed a connection from Setteagast to Englewood main, so they can get from one to the other without dragging in and then running around their trains.
Ed Chapman? Name sounds familar, but I cant put a face to it. If I remember, I let you know. You can pretty much draw a line from the north east to south west across Houston, and everything on the northwest side is BN, UP on the southeast. In the middle is us, the PTRA, still havent been taken over by either one, yet.
And I agree with you, a little PR goes a long way, and railroads seem to be quite stingy with that right now.
Stay Frosty
Ed

[Anonymous]

School, 1970-1974. Back when the Mop was still blue and you could still see locos lettered C&EI. Have a picture of Mop's last FP-7 going through College Station. along with a lot of old SP stuff.

Looks like this topic has pretty well played out. I still think that the RR's are their own worse enemies with the public.

What ever happend to the old HB&T? I have a number of photos of that too. Yellow locos as I recall. I havnt been to TX for more then a one day trip in 20 years. I did take one of the last Texas Chief's that used the old Union Station before they switched to the SP station. Ever run into a "foamer" named Ed Chapman? He was an Ag, and "foamers" not a word I normally used, but he was obsessed. Had a dorm room track side and various camaras set up to photo anything that went by. Had some good times with him.

--Ralph

[edblysard]

Yup, still ornery, still wearing weird, ugly suits and ties, still doing what he does, older than dirt, popular as ever.
Ed

[edblysard]

Work or school?. My Dad lived in Hearn, just out side of Bryan/Collage Station, brother in law, sister, two nephews and a niece, all Aggies. I do sympathize with you, at the PTRA, we wash our locomotives every time they get fueled, we pick up our trash, and the trash of those who think thats it ok to dump their junk anywhere but in the landfill, we take care of the comunity our tracks run through, for no other reason than we like our tracks looking good.
Hope it gets better,
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

PS

I would never sic the local TV station on anyone for anything- had it done to me before and even the RR doesn't deserve an axe job.

Is Marvin Zindler still in Houston?

[Anonymous]

Ok a couple of responses, and after re-reading my post from last night I will try not to make so many typos tonight.

1. The road is the CSX and I have contacted the Roadmaster in Charlotte, (only 10 miles away) and left many voice mails on both his office and cell numbers. I have also called the div. MOW engineer in Florence SC, which controls this area. Also left voice mails with the trainmaster in Charlotte as I had his number from the PD, and finally the state Vice President in Raleigh, who did get some reults, though his job is to lobby the general assembly, not chase down messes in the hinterlands. Maybe the fact that the Speaker of the NC House of Representitives lives here makes him responsive.

But then that brings up the political angle again- will CSX be looking for something from the General Assembley this year? How will they be able to call on?

2. We do go after junk cars, and overgrown properties and substandard buildings too. Sadly railroads often possess all three.

3. As for seeking bigger fi***o fry, I would not like to waste time with the RR as someone suggests, but we also respond to what our citizens complain to us about and the RR is a regular topic.
4. CSXNS- I spent 14 years in Bessemer City and found the NS slow-w-w-w to deal with but responsive. CSX as been a dissappointment.

5. ED- my favorite historical road, the Western Maryland was known for clean locos, which I guess makes CSX even more frustrating. I did spend a few years in College Station TX looking at dirty SP power.

[csxns]

I do know this.In Cramerton NC the mayer got and they still do NS keeps the RR clean and neat.In Cherryville NC a land owner had RR stuff from a rebuilt crossing he wonted it moved he contacted CSX they did not do nothing so he cleaned it up and sent CSX the bill and CSX did pay the bill.Waco NC a CSX freight caught the weeds on fire done a lot of dammage so CSX keeps the RR clear.

[Anonymous]

I must disagree with you Sir, The average citizen would have a very difficult time getting railroads to clean up trash. That happend here in Buffalo Grove Ill. with a couple of home owners over some track panels and old rails left laying about. The city had to interveen to get them picked up. Some Towns and Villages passed ordinance's allowing them to fine railroads for keeping a untidy appearance. All property owners are subject to the same rules.
TIM ARGUBRIGHT

[BRAKIE]

Ralph,Did you also go after the good people in your town that has trashy property or 5 or 6 broken down or torn down cars sitting on blocks on their property or is this a bash railroads thing??? I think you should had bigger things to worry about then the railroads as a city offical.Our city officals got more on their hands in running the city then complain about the railroads and this is not a very large city by any means around 12,000 souls.

[edblysard]

Forgot to add, when we see a down crossing arm, or one thats malfunctioning, we are required to call it in to our control tower, and they have the maintainers out there before we get back most times.
Ed

[Anonymous]

I'm curious, Ralph. Do you still advocate the railroads spray adjacent property? Secondly, not getting a response could have been a matter of not being able to find the right person to call. They were not being a very good citizen and I'll assure you that division or regional management was not aware.
Used crossties should have been bundled and picked up within two weeks and the crossing arm should not have been left at all.
RFegards and have a safe day. gdc

[edblysard]

Ralph, did you read my post? We, the PTRA, do go out and clean up the mess, even when its not our junk. Did you try the MOW department of the railroad? Most of the clean up would be done by them. I dont know which road you had a problem with, but yeah, its not only proper business practice to return calls, it flat rude not to, even if all your going to do is blow off the caller. And yes, it would behoove the railroads to cultivate the public, and the image most people get exposed to is the scene at a crossing, so if its full of junk, railroad junk or otherwise, well, all most see is junk, they dont see any diffrence between the two. You said you were the city manager, why didnt you call the local TV station, and get one of their investigative reporters, (they all seem to have one or two now) to go out with you and a camera crew? I bet you would have gotton a call or two real quick.
And just to rattle the box a bit, do you remember the last time you saw a SP motor, (when there was a SP) clean? How much would it have cost them to wa***he locomotive? And how much public apathy did having filithy locomotives generate. Did anyone outside the railroad really care when SP went away? Image counts, even when the bean counters tell you otherwise.
Stay Frosty
Ed

[Anonymous]

Well I saw some respones to my post. Trash and debris-- I have been a railfan for long enough (30+0 years to tell the difference between the tra***hat is dumped by idiots on RR property and RR trash- Im talking about ripped out ties that lay for years, sections of rail cut out and dumped on the roadside, as signal crossing arm and lights replaced and the parts just dumped on the side of the street- these have been there for 6 months in a residentual neighborhood. Actually in our town we have almost none of the sofas, tires, etc )(thankfully) but I have seen them elsewhere.

In a way its beside the point, no matter how trah gets there propert owners have obligatins to maintain their property. RR's dont.

As for calling them, if you read what I said. I hade to threaten an action to get them to return a call- not one responder commented on the fact that retturning phone calls is a proper business practice that RR's fail in.(im not stupid enough to actually damage their property-- but I did get a response)

Finally, when the fed's adopt all the other regulations that cost the RR's big money, the RR's cant turn out any support because they dont cultivate any support. It doesn't have to be a TV ad- it has to be respect for the communities they pass through.

[edblysard]

Hi Tim, went looking, try trains mag, may 2001 issue, page 28. The group had Thomas at the Strausberg(sp) railroad muesuem.
Ed

[edblysard]

Tim, Contact Trains, they did an article on a group which has a full size thomas, they take it to train shows and exhibitions. The story quoted the lady running the program as saying that more kids and adults seemed to reconize thomas, and respond to the program than any thing she had ever seen before. Bet both your and your sons would have a blast.
Ed

[Anonymous]

gdc, Now that you cleared up some of the misunderstandings that I had. I will probably start a new thread. I have very little knowledge of railroads for I am an Electrical Engineer by trade. My two boy's like watching trains. They got it from watching Thomas the Tank Engine. We do not get into it like some fans do. We do not know one engine from another.That is why I like visiting this sight. It helps us understand what we are watching.
TIM A

[Anonymous]

Sir, Am I reading this right? Does that date say 1995? The date on my computer say's 2003. That news was put out over 7 years ago. What does this article have to do with railroad advertising today? Please explain, so I understand the piont you are trying to make?
TIM A

[Anonymous]

This response seems to go to the core of it. If you had a business that was making a 37% increase in net profit and the feds and states need to spend billions on YOUR infrastructure for upgrades it would seem to be a big waste of money to advertise. I'm by no means a rocket scientist but it appears pretty clear cut. How about starting a discussion on finances, I would love to dig further into this issue. I presume that you think Mr. Snow will be a perfect fit in the Treasury.
Mike
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CIV
FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 29, 1995 [phone]
TDD [phone]



CSX PAYS U.S. $5.9 MILLION TO SETTLE MISCHARGING CLAIMS

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- CSX Transportation Inc. will pay the
United States $5.9 million to settle claims the company
overcharged the government millions of dollars for railroad
crossing signals installed under a federal safety program, the
Department of Justice announced today.
Assistant Attorney General Frank W. Hunger, in charge of the
Civil Division, said the agreement settles claims that CSX
Transportation inflated labor hours for wiring signal houses;
failed to obtain the lowest price possible from third-party
vendors for parts; and overcharged for certain parts by selling
them at a profit to third-party vendors, then repurchased the
parts and charged the United States the higher repurchase price.
Funds for the railroad signal crossing equipment, which were
installed primarily in southeastern states, were provided under
the Rail Highways Crossing Program administered by the Federal-Aid
Highway Program of the Department of Transportation. The
federal government provides 90 percent of the money for the
program with the states providing 10 percent in matching funds.
Hunger said A. David Nelson, a former employee of CSX
Transportation, brought the matter to the government's attention
in February 1993, then filed a qui tam suit March 17, 1994, in
U.S. District Court in Jacksonville, Florida, under the False
Claims Act, 31 U.S.C.  3729.
A two-year investigation by the Department of
Transportation's Office of Inspector General and Florida
Department of Transportation confirmed the allegations.
In April 1993, CSX Transportation voluntarily refunded $2.1
million to 18 states as an adjustment to amounts billed for the
construction of signals at grade crossings and on January 11,
1995, CSX Transportation agreed to pay Florida and 11 of the 18
states $1.4 million for adjusted costs related to grade crossing
signals.
In addition to the money CSX Transportation has paid the
United States and the states, the company also must absorb all of
its expenses, including legal and accounting costs incurred in
this matter.
The settlement resolves any potential claims by the United
States against CSX Transportation under the False Claims Act for
fraud and under common law concerning allegations of cost
mischarging to the Rail Highways Crossing Program.
Pursuant to the False Claims Act, Nelson will receive
$1,180,000 of the settlement.
#####
95-520

[edblysard]

Hi csx, just wanted to know, playing devils advocate here, when did you notice the railroad dumping all those tires, old furniture and tra***here? Last time I checked, we still used steel wheels on our trains, and unless the rusted box springs and old desk fell out of a box car, it wasnt ours. Again, most train tracks were there before the neighborhoods they run through were built, and often, but not always, those neighborhoods were built to house the railroad workers. Go to any industrial area, and look. You dont have to look hard, just about any empty space is full of junk, trash, abandonded autos, just about anything people can dump, tree limbs, yard trash, you name it, its dumped there, all for the industry, in this case the railroad, to clean up, even though they didnt generate the trash in the first place. Belive me, the railroad I work for is so cheap, they wouldnt throw away a old box spring or icebox, they would cut in up and put it in the scrap metal dumpster. And I doubt the lot full of tra***hat was mentioned was railroad property, if so, most of what you see there is trash dumped by the public, most of whom are too cheap to carry it all the way to a public dump, and pay the fee there. Now I am aware that public image is important, we run a tra***rain every six months here, our mow goes out with a gondola and a small crane, and gathers up most of the crap people dump on our right of way, for no other reason than the management here understands that A: it wont go away by itself, and B: their employees, (us) have to work in this junk, and its dangerous. But, besides the public image angle, give me one good economical reason a ralroad should assume the role of trashman for the public? About the only debris I have ever seen a train generate are brake shoes, and a truck spring every once in a while. So lets see if I got this straight. The public is suppost to bring its old icebox, the stack of tires behind the garage, all the tree limbs they trimmed this fall, the dead TV from the livingroom, and that pile of lumber that sat out back for years, and dump it on the railroad right of way, along with the odd stolen car or two, then go to the city council and complain about how junky and ugly the railroad is and demand we clean up our junk?
Oh and by the way, could you cut down all those weeds and brush in that lot next to the crossing, even though it isnt railroad property, we cant see the trains for all the trees and weeds, dont worry, the guy who owns that lot wont sue you for destroying private property.
I even have a question of my own. Why does everyone assume that if its next to the tracks, the railroad owns it? Most of the business I see up against our right of way are not owned by us, and the empty lots full of weeds and junk arn't ours either, nor did we bring the junk out there and dump it. We have a 50' centerline right of way here, anything out side of 25' away from the rail isnt ours, yet the general consensus is that we are responsible to keep it cleaned up.
Again, when was the last time you saw a railroader thorwing old tires from the train, or shoving a old desk out of a boxcar? Have you ever caught a engineer chuncking the limbs from a tree off the side of the locomotive?
You should come to our yard, we have over three dozen trash barrels around the leads and buildings, our management even went so far as to have our drinking water put in aluiminum cans, understanding that even if we were trashy enought to throw them on the ground when we were finished drinking, one of us would be smart and poor enought to pick up the cans and recycle them. I have been to quite a few yards, and due to the nature of our business, they are indeed dirty places, but dirty, not junky, is the key word.
So next time you get upset about the trash in some lot near the tracks, go look at the trash, and decide if its something the railroad put there, or is it something the public dumped. And I agree, next time your out train watching, and see some trash, pick it up. Try to leave the place you visited a little cleaner, after all, you may want to come back there again, wouldnt you like it to be cleaner than the last time you visited?
Stay Frosty
Ed

[edblysard]

Hi gdc,
No we do not....
as for rough handling, so far we still have the notation on our list as to the contents of a car, with a * by those containing easily damaged goods. Those cars we are required to shove to joints, and then shove at least one bumper on top of it. We still use the "glass track", a spur into the local budwiser brewery where we deliver a few boxcars a month, full of beer bottles. But I would agree with you, most roads would have similar restrictions on trilevels. Thankfully, business has picked up. When I signed on, we may have spoted two or three autoracks a day at volkswagon, now, we cant get rid of the loaded ones fast enough, we spot that place every shift, ten to fifteen empty racks a shift. They have two of three auto ships at the dock every 24 hours. Thats something Tim might want to take a look at, the ships that bring automobiles into the ports, they look like giant shoe boxes, with a little bridge on top, and huge doors in the side to unload.The volume has gotten to the point we now keep three or four tracks of empty trilevels at our dockside storage yard, just so we wont run out. I am starting to see quite a bit more of the articulated two and three unit trilevels, we even had a Santa Fe five unit here. I also noticed Tim is starting to ask more detailed questions, good for him. Tim, I go to work every day with the assumption that I will learn something new about this industry, even after twelve years of modeling and active interest, and six years of hands on experience, I havent been disapointed yet. If you live near a port that serves the automobile import industry, go watch a autoship come in to dock, and see how fast they empty that thing. After a little research, you will discover that, juse like intermodel, it is almost a industry unto itself, with a whole diffrent set of rules and way of doing business.
Keep on asking questions,
Stay frosty,
Ed

[BRAKIE]

I have noticed the trash also...I call it people trach,old sofas,bed springs,fast food bags,old car tires,garbage,old stoves and ect put there by the public for the railroads to pick up.
Question:Who you want people dropping their junk on your property? No? Just what I thought.Why does people drop their junk and trash on the railroads and then turn around and complain about it? I suppose you have never been any where near a industrial complex and see up close the piles of junk and tra***hey have laying about? Check a truck terminal for a real eye opener,be sure to check around back and the sides of the service buildings.

yes,we had a screwball old woman that tried to get the NS from sounding their horn between the hours of 10:00pm and 7:00am as nobody is out that late at night and the horns kept her awake all night and caused the value of her property to go down.Happily she failed big time.Surprise not from the NS,but,from the good common sense of the people,the Mayor and the Police.She was more worried about the value of her property then the lives of people after all we have 45-50 trains aday though our fair (but small) city and the bulk of those run between 3:00pm and 8:00-9:00 am.

The NS keeps the weeds sprayed and the crossings are in good shape except for 3 very small side streets and these are scheduled to be fix this year...Now in all fairness the CSX needs to repair 2 of thier crossings..One that is the worst of the 2 is on the main street through town that sees heavy truck traffic...

[Anonymous]

Ed, does your line participate in interline freight claim settlements? I would guess not since it is a switching carrier, but then, some do. Many of the more readily damageable products have left the railroad because of rough handling. The most prevalent commodity is furniture in rail cars.
Incidently, NS also has similar handling restrictions on loaded multilevels. Probably all railroads now do. If they go over a hump, they are switched over and set into whatever track.
Regards and have a safe day. gdc

[Anonymous]

Ed, Just to let you know. Mr. Rundard said, most of the damage that occurs to these cars is when they are loaded and unloaded. Biggest problem is from nick's caused when the driver's are not careful. Railroads are not charged for this but until the car is inspected in the Parking it is still considerd "In Transit".
TIM A

[Anonymous]

I wish I had thought about the difference earlier too, but PR and advertising were not my field. Rail operations and forensic accounting were. I'm impressed with what you appear to want to learn and the depth of your questions. In 35+ years, I've not met anyone who wanted to learn to the extent you do. Do you have a major university near you? If so, you would probably do well in their transportation curricula.
As I recall, this all got started when you son asked you why a siding appeared to be unused? Is he still as interesed in railroads? Would you also like to discuss matters that would be of interest to him?
Public Relations and Advertising. Railroads do both. Sometimes it's not apparent to the public and sometimes it is.
Which thread would you like to follow? I'll do my best to answer.
Regards and have a safe day. gdc

[edblysard]

Tim, we service the volkswagon/volvo facility at the port of houston. To clue you in, we are not, under any circumstances allowed to kick a empty or loaded tri or bi level autorack. They can not be used as bumpers, you can not kick against them. We are forbidden to allow any autorack to roll free, for any eason. Sounds like we take car of them?
Good job on research, keep digging..
Ed

[Anonymous]

Mike,
What does this responce have to do with railroad advertising? If you want to starte a thread on railroad finance's I will be more then happy to responed.
TIM A

[Anonymous]

gdc,
Yes Sir, you are correct. Now that I think about it, I was getting Public Relations confused with Advertising. I wish you would have told me this yesterday. I wasted 2 hours at the Library reading up on advertising when I should have been reading about Public Relations. Yes, you are correct again. They need to be handled differently.
But not to let the trip to the library be a total waste. I found some interesting facts while there on the skewed data over quality. The Librarian called the Chysler Neon plant in Belvidear Illinios. She spoke to a Mr. Rundard who works in Quality control. (Some library's offer this service for free.) He said shipping Neons by rail results in a 3% damaged in transit rate. While shipping by truck results in a 16% damaged in transit rate. I'm still trying to get the Intermudol figure's. Trucking and railroads are kind of secretive about there damage rates. Those figure's are out there you just have to know were to look.
TIM A

[Anonymous]

Sorry to always be the bearer of bad news, but this is a fine example of corporate welfare and a good reason not to waste hard earned profits on something silly like advertising. I sincerely hope this doesn’t offend the hard core railroaders, I’m sure in the case of UP, the unions ensured that you received your fair share of the $378 million in net income through big fat bonus checks. Something is wrong with the following picture:

UP posts strong numbers in face of soft 2002 economy

Union Pacific Corporation reported revenue for the fourth quarter ending Dec. 31 of $3.17 billion, up 5 percent from the year-ago quarter. Net income was $378 million up 37 percent.

Revenue for the fiscal year ended Dec. 31 was $12.5 billion, up 4 percent, while net income grew 39 percent to $1.34 billion from the year-ago period. Quarterly and annual results include the company’s Overnite motor cargo division.

Operating revenue from UP’s rail operations was $2.83 billion, up 4 percent, and operating income rose 1 percent to $562 million. Operating ratio was 80.1 percent compared with 79.7 percent. Revenue ton-miles increased 2 percent to 131.2 billion.

Rail operation’s revenue for 2002 grew 3 percent to $11.16 billion, and operating income jumped 12 percent to $2.25 billion. Operating ratio declined to 79.8 percent from 81.4 percent. Revenue ton-miles increased 3 percent to 518.7 billion.

UP said quarterly results were driven by strong revenue growth of 10 percent in the automotive segment, agricultural (8 percent), and industrial products (7 percent). Chemicals revenue grew 3 percent, while intermodal and energy revenues declined 2 percent and 3 percent respectively.

Despite strong results for 2002, UP plans to cut up to 1,000 jobs, or 2 percent of its work force, this year. About 300 people will be laid off by March and another 700 more positions will not be filled this year as people leave or retire. Union Pacific employs about 48,000 people.

Union Pacific is also moving forward with converting yard switchers to remote control. It will take into 2004 to fully implement the technology system wide, UP said.

Report urges more money for rail infrastructure

The federal government needs to step up funding for the nation’s freight rail network, according to New York State Transportation Commissioner Joseph Boardman.

A report released by the American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials says that freight rail traffic will increase by 57 percent between now and 2020. But railroads will fall up to $2 billion short each year on capital improvements needed to meet capacity demands, said Boardman, chairman of the AASHTO.

State governments have begun to contribute to upgrades. New York is sharing in a $27 million initiative to improve the freight rail system.

Federal investment will allow the economy to expand, relieve highway congestion, and control air pollution, Boardman said in a story published in The Business Review (Albany, N.Y.)

The AASHTO also says states and the federal government will need to spend $17 billion over the next six years to cover the nation's key inter-city rail corridor needs. Up to $42.9 billion will be needed on top of that amount to meet rail needs for the next 20 years.

In 2002 the states spent $133 million underwriting rail service on critical corridors, the report said. This was equivalent to 10 percent of Amtrak's revenues.

[csxns]

If i know it went by train i will buy it.