“No Trespassing” Entrapment

[croteaudd]

Railroads may be their own worst enemy regarding “No Trespassing” signs. They seem to use a double standard that makes a sign’s intended meaning not always readily discernable. A fence displaying “No Trespassing” normally means not to go on the OTHER side of the fence. But, in SOME cases, railroads also interpret a “No Trespassing” sign to apply to a parallel roadway in FRONT of a fence. In my opinion, that basically is entrapment, and is misleading. If a vehicular road is the railroad’s property, and they don’t want the public traveling down it, they should post a separate sign at the entrance FACING traffic rather than on the fence facing towards the middle of the roadway. The latter can easily be misinterpreted as only a property line that should not be violated. A general rule of thumb that I personally have used for years to help identify an ‘entrapment roadway’ is: if the entrance is a DRIVEWAY that rises up to a sidewalk, rather than a single level intersection with painted crosswalks, it probably leads to private property, and is an indication to beware. Nevertheless, since most people tend to respect private property notices, railroads could avoid needless trouble for themselves and others if they simply posted “No Trespassing” signs more correctly, and less subject to interpretation.

[Anonymous]

What are you so worried about? At age 45, I've been "nabbed" by railroad police perhaps half a dozen times, with the worst outcome being an escort off the property.
Last year I got nailed by a maintenance of way superintendant, who "had" to do something, cause his 6 subordinates were looking on, so I just told him the truth, it was a lil journey down memory lane, we had a talk anout "foamers" and how crazy they all were with their radios, train logs etc,...and then he wished me well, told me to be careful, and that was about the end of it.

Bear in mind that if a railroad cop is the one to catch you, there's probably a good chance that's because the RR has experianced high theft or vandalism in the area, and "that" is why the cop is there in the first place, and running away is tantamount to saying "I'm guilty" in their mind.

Instead, walk right towards them like they have something to tell you that is interesting, act like you didn't know it was wrong for you to be where you were, and gladly leave when he tells you to beat it and you should be ok.


Also, display the behavior of staying well away from moving equipment, so that "switcher" crew doesn't have to worry about you getting yerself hurt if they "fail to call you in" and you should be OK, aa far as my own experiances have proven.


I think the railroads have come of the opinion that "bystanders" are a part of the equation they can never totally eliminate, and you can greatly improve your prospects by knowing your place, being a cooperative member of the "team", and just reralize that the RR cop has a job to do to, let him do it, even if that means waliking up to him so he can tell you to get the @R%&$@ out of there.

And realize that if the RR has been experiancing lits of signal lights being vandalized in the area, a pellet pistol in your pocket is gonna do you no good at all. Leave it at home.

[Anonymous]

Why do peaple feel a need to go on railroad property? I do not know the situation you are in but here in the Chicago area you can see just about anything from a general public area. I guess we are fortunate, for I see no need to trespass on railroad property.
TIM A

[Anonymous]

What does one use a standard in what is and what isn't railroad property, if it isn't clearly marked? How large is the right-of-way on either side of the rails. I know the train yard app. 1/2 mile from my home is fenced in for the most part, by the river on one side and a chain link fence on the other. Furthermore, all the gravel roads that lead to it are marked as which are public access and rail access. Out on the main line, however, there are few signs if any and the only ones that are present are the "NO TRESSPASSING" ones at intersections of paved roads and railroads. I sell organic produce and the like in the warm season (not an advertisement, just a lead in to why I am near the rr to begin with) and the best patch of blackberries is along a rail. There are no signs or fences or barriers natural or otherwise where I enter. I have been picking there for years and they have yet to say anything. The edge of this area is app 3-5 meters from the ties edge and runs about 50 meters parallel to the bed. I have been there on many occasions and spoken to whomever was there, but no one has ever told me to leave so I presume I am not violating any laws. I noticed last year that they had apparently sprayed herbicide (all the small vegetation about 8-10 meters on either side was dad) in the area, but did not spray "my" berries. Is there a standard, as with the highway dept. for rr right-of-way?

[Anonymous]

Good question, but when a right of way bisects other fenced in private property, and represents the shortest distance between two points, gueess what

[edblysard]

Our yard lies between two neighorhoods, built long after the yard was. We post no trespassing signs everywhere, the public uses them for target pratice, or tears them down. Then we fenced in one side, the side that most of the trespassers came from. They cut the fence, in one place, they used a car and chain to pull it down. Had a father yell at us for making his kids walk another two blocks to get home. Boxcars are consistently broken into, those with bagged flour or rice are emptied within a hour.
I have even caught a guy, with his teenage sons, trying to crank open the bottom of a grain hopper to get whatever was in there. Had one drive right down the center of the yard, on a path used by our carmen with their scooters, he ended up jammed between a pair of trains, claimed to the cops he drove through there all the time, we must have moved our tracks.
As for a right of way standard, I know of none, but that dosnt mean there isnt one. We tried to block access to a dirt road that runs down one side of our yard for maintainence of way to move their equipment. We installed a swinging bar gate made out of rail, locked with a switch lock.
That lived a whole three days, till they pulled it out of the ground with a backhoe, stolen, that they left there. The signs are there to warn those of you who respect what it stands for. Sadly, there are quite a few who could care less, and will trespass regardless. The GCOR has a rule, when in doubt, take the safest route. I would suggest you do the same. If your not sure if its railroad property or not, assume that it is and treat it as such. Yes, most rr cops will chew you out, then ask you to leave, maby with a escort. Thats their job, not to arrest you, but to keep you away from danger. And yes, if the shortest distance between two points is across a 60 track railroad yard, yup, you guessed right...
Stay frosty,
Ed

[cabforward]

dear sir / madam: just a few questions: are you an attorney? are you familiar with the evolution of statutes defining property rights? what is the derivation of "curtilage"?
when someone places a fence between himself and his next-door neighbor, where does the fencepost sit with respect to the property line?

unless you are acquainted with the legal precedents involving the boundaries of private property, and are prepared to argue the fine points of terms such as "trespass", "posted", "violators", etc., i suggest that you would be wise to merely abide the signs' instructions and place yur issues, if you have any, before the r.rs. general counsel.. i'm sure they would be only too thrilled to hash over the various implications of trespass with you..

you sound like someone who would argue the uncertainty of the legal status of the signs, then sue the r.rs. when you are struck by a train, when you weren't violating the r.rs. private property rights..

[Anonymous]

I like your style train............

[Anonymous]

mmmmm,mmmmm, good! Can't wait to taste those creosote, diesel fumes, and herbicide tainted berries! No, I'm sorry. I just couldn't resist making a joke here though. Railroad humor, you know..............

[croteaudd]

Dear Sir / Madam “train”:

No, I am not an attorney, nor do I have much respect for the profession. Occasionally, I sit in a police station and chat with my wife about the very bloody stupidity going on in the community, or what all the fire engines are rushing to. The intention of the original post was to warn others that there IS a potential interpretation problem. It is most accute when a fence with “No Trespassing” signs parallels a well-traveled public highway, and with an abruptly right angle, the fence with “No Trespassing” signs then follows a private road. The same type signs have DIFFERENT implications depending what KIND of road they are facing. Hopefully, others can glean something useful from all this so as to avoid problems. I am also suggesting railroads can reduce misunderstandings by comprehending there IS a consistency problem that invites innocent entanglements. If railroads wickedly desire conflict, they can’t help but get it as things stand, and the well meaning suffer. If they prefer peace, well, the original post suggests how they may have it. I have years under my belt, and I try to anticipate and avoid problems as much as possible. Do you likewise?

[cabforward]

exactly what sort of doubt do you feel exists in signs warning people to stay off their property? i cant imagine anyone but a troublemaker debating the issue of where public access ends and restricted access begins.. it seems you prefer to view the potential ways in which the signage might be construed so that violators might not be held to account.. and the purpose of this is what? i guess people cannot be prevented from violating the property of others, but they / their survivors ought not to cry foul when the worst case results.. why is it important to create a standard signage for r.rs.? will young people abide the new admonishment? will derelicts avoid the yards? will thieves be struck with fear? who is the signage for? who will take it seriously? i mean, more seriously than the signs are taken now.. what is your point? it seems our forum is once again being led down the garden path as we were just recently, in a contribution of a vastly over-rated topic about grade crossings.. oh no! i aint going there again!!
as asians are given to say, rotsa ruck!

[Anonymous]

Ed, you are one of the most sensible posters here, so all I'm gonna do is elaborate on my own experiances.

I respect RR property to the point where I wouldn't vandalize it, any more than I would want them to vandalize mine. Even going back to the days of open auto racks, there was just something very wrong with the thrills kids got trying to bust out windows etc with rocks, and I may have participated once or twice, till the "wrongness" overtook the thrill, and the prospect of shooting out signal lights just looked so wrong to begin with, it never held much any appeal.

I attribute this to having a father who was never to busy to take whatever time necessary to explain right from wrong, no cupped hands nor hickory switches were necessary, he just explained facts in such a way you could put your feet into the shoes of the wouldbe victims.

He died when I was only 7, but his lessons have lasted a lifetime.

And I think it may be a great deal to do with the way I come across when confronted, I don't have a "you guys" mentality When I have confronted RR authority, I just simply explain my business eg "walking up to the county line road lookin at trains" and since I'm a good 20' off the rail, that's usually good enough to get waived on.

I come across as sincere, which is probably no small part of my success.


And the one thime I was harshly escorted to public lands, it was explained to me the RR had experianced a lot of theft from boxcars, which I had no involvement in but could understand where the RR was coming from. And I think the cop pretty much figured out I was a "nice guy" while we walked to the property line, hence no ride downtown.

make any sense?

[wabash1]

Picture this. I like old homes that are remodeled and up to date. just the way the house are built with detail. One day I am walking down the street i spot a house big house, it looks like 8 rooms at least, i walk up the sidewalk and come to the door, I open the door and walk in. it is better than i thought the insides are imaculant the detail and cash spent to referbi***his house in the living room there is a fire place, the furniture the hard wood floors and going on thru the house the den with built in bood case. the nick nacs on shelves on to the kitchen new cabinits all oak nothing cheap here as all things are made of real wood not the cheap stuff. The stairs leading up to the top floor are spiral and are like the rest of the house perfect. the addition of a deck off the back of the house is classy and over looks a water garden that is nicely done. the furniture in the master bedroom is the owners grandparents nicly redone and worth a fortune alone, i move thru the house to the basement and it is now a play room. walls are water profed and while admiring it i stop and have a beer from the fridge, and shoot a game of pool.

then you the owner come home and find me there. i did nothing wrong just looked had a beer and played pool. I didnt touch anything else and i did not know i was not to be there. the door was unlocked and i didnt see any No Treaspassing signs. why are they so mad. why is the cops taking me in.

If it dont belong to you then its best to stay away, Most generally railfans dont do anything either. Walking on the rail (balancing ) see how far you can do it. ( tresspassing) ok i pick up a rock and throw it at a sign ( vandilism) watch a train go by pick up a rock and throw it at the train (more vandilism) found a old spike laying on ground think ill keep it ( theft) Get the picture. It dont matter how small a issue it is it is still breaking the law the same law you exspect for your property to be inforced is the same for the railroad.

[BRAKIE]

j,Excellant point made there!

I do not understand the reason one should be on railroad property anyway..

Look at this also,if you trespass on some industry's property you may be arrested..You trepass on a trucking lines property you you may be arrested.You hunt on some famers land with out WRITTEN PERMISSION you can and will be arrested.Why single out the railroads?

[Anonymous]

Good question for discution. As far as the law is written for the railroads as far as the right of way here in Illinois it is i think 100 feet from the nearset rail. As for the yards it is an outright dangerous place with trains the biggest share of the time arriving and departing at the same time. I work as a switchman I have to cross the yard tracks doing my job. Ed mentioned the GCOR we have to live by it when we do our work. Please do not teespass on the property. Here in Galesburg Il. we have a bridge that crosses over the yard about 100 yard north of the trimmer bldg and on the north there is a good view of the diesel service tracks. As for other locations around town there is the Amtrak depot, Peck park and also a small town called Cameron each one of these places have good views of the tracks. Rodney

[Anonymous]

I only package those, I use ones I buy for the "free teasers", although the mentality of people that even buy them could be a lot clearer now that you mention it. I will sell 'em dog crap if they are willing to pony up the dough for it.

[wallywalkabout]

Hi Rodney, Your right, "please don't trespass on railroad property", especially in the yards. As a former tower director (B&M), I'd liken walking through a switching yard to just short suicide. Try stepping on a rail, slipping between a switch point, and at the same time the TD throws that particular switch. You're trapped and you will wish your were dead when it's over. What has happen to commen sense and the respect for private property??

[edblysard]

All the sense in the world. Most of the railroaders I know wouldnt give you a hard time, as long as you didnt interupt them. If you wait till they take a break, and approach them, most will talk your ear off. I wasnt trying to imply that all fans are trespassers or vandals, but trying to show that we do try to keep casual traspassers out, and that the habitual trespasser often turns into the vandal, even if he hasnt done anything, after several raided boxcars, everybody becomes suspect...I have noticed that the really sincere fans often report thing they find wrong, dragging equipment, broken rail, I even had one point out a sliding wheel set, due to a hand brake left on. Most of them seem to adopt a strech of track as their own. Sorry to hear you lost your dad so young, it make things hard.
My Dad also set a example for me, he tried to teach me to look at every thing from at least two points of view, even if I didnt agree with one, I at least got a feeling for where the other person was coming from. Spankings, whuppings and such were very rare here too, words were the tools my parents used to explain the who, what, when and where of right and wrong, they both taught by example. I was a late in life baby, mom was 38, dad too, both were from the WWII era, so their world had a lot of, "Gentlemen dont do things like that:, or " Ladys never say things like that", so I grew up expecting a lot more better behavior from other people than most folks. I didnt mean to discourage you, or any fan from trainwatching, just to remind you some yards may not be as freindly as you expect. And again, if your not sure its railroad property, then act as if it is.
And your correct, some thing just "feel" wrong, even if your not sure why. I listen to those hunches most of the time, its kept me out of hot water a lot in 44 years.
Stay Frosty,
ED

[Anonymous]

By the way they don't use creosote in this area on any of the rails I have been around. All of them have concrete ties and steel spring clips in leu of wood and nails.

[Anonymous]

You are right about it being just short of suicide even more so when it is the bowl tracks the summer is not to bad your ears are not covered but the winter is a whole different story cars can sneak up on you in an instant because your ears are covered up. Rodney Switchman

[Anonymous]

Is anyone else in the forum from the southeast? Sounds to me like things are very different in other parts of the country concerning rr's. I only wear a jacket about 2 weeks out of the winter and I only cover my ears to keep the horns from bursting them. The railyard near where I live here doesn't have the god awful crime problem that seems to be evident in other places, and you hardly ever here of a train vs anything collision. I went to the train yard to apply for a job one time to fill the trains with diesel whenever they needed it, and not only was the guy nice, he took me to lunch because he kept me waiting. Sometimes I still wish I had got that job. You had to cross a public road with the tanker to get to the refill tower so a CDL was required, which I didn't have.

[croteaudd]

Ed: The ability you have in seeing where other people are come from is truly commendable. Your father gave you something to cherish.

[croteaudd]

It is commendable that your father took the time to teach you right from wrong, and that you actually listened to him. Much success to you!

[edblysard]

Thats what I was taught, dosnt mean I am always smart to excerise it all the time though...
Thanks
Ed

[Anonymous]

i have been told by railroad people ,that if you or i are within 50 feet of any railroad posted or not,"YOU ARE TRESPASSING" 7 if you want togo to court good luck,becasue the rr has lts of the GREEN STUFF....... AKA HUB

[BRAKIE]

If 50' from the right of way was trespassing,then I know many streets that are illegal as well as some houses and stores..I know alot of hot spots that is 50' from the tracks and nothing is said..

[Anonymous]

I totally agree Wabash. Poetically stated.........

[Anonymous]

>>Sorry to hear you lost your dad so young, it make things hard.
Yeah, it was a shame. In many ways it was probably easier on me at age 7, than it would have been at age 12+. At 7 yrs old you really don't understand life's thornier realities. I just had him up on a pedestal by that time, none of the traditional father/son squabbles over forging me into the kinda young man he always wish he coulda turned out to be,..etc,.. never happened..

He was in all aspects a total hero figure in my eye, and most friends I've talked it through with are quick to point out that much of that would likely have changed once it became more important to him to make me the kinda son he could be proud of,...etc....probably some truth to that.


But, on the "Trespassing entrapment" debate,.....I have to wonder what all Previous history would have to be a part of it all, to get a rational person to be of a mind to see Railroads as having time, interest, and/or motivation to actually play such mind games in the first place. More likely, the railroadshave better things to focus resources on than merely endulging the fantasy's of the "Richard Kimble wannabe's" all across this land with a game of cat and mouse?

I may not be the best example, since my railway trampin' spells tend to go in spurts, ..6-8 years can go by without me even feeling the "itch",...then , for no good reason I'll get the bug, spend all my spare time in a week hiking through some obscure industrial district, see the new paint schemes, marvel at some ancient fallen flag boxcar still in original paint, and evidently, still in revenue service, and simply muse over how the way rails on active sidings are shiny, while those on dormant sidings have the tell tale powder rust coat,..etc and then I'm good for another good 7 years...

Hard to imagine the railroads even knowing I'm there, let alone "laying in wait" for me.


Course,...I do tend to get a might cautious whenever I see some stranger at work taking pictures, with no explanation....first thought is always "someones lawyer is getting ready to sue us, this must be another "slip and fall" litigation in the making" Forcing even me to become impatient, if not anti social,... substituting a hostile, "What do you think you're doing with that camera? BEAT IT or I'm calling a cop!!" for the more normal "you must be lost,..huh?" when finding folks where they don't belong,..in my place of work...

By the same token,...if I were to look out my back window at home and see some stranger walking through my back yard, who minded his own business, had a destination, and kept headed towards it,...I can't see much use in assuring that a confrontation festers up,... But, if the same guy is waltzing through 2-3 times a week and I notice that my reddest and plumpest ripe tomatoes are disappearing out of my garden before I can get to 'em,....yeah,...*that* guy is likely to start feeling "entrapped" in short order...(what kinda sicko hides out in his house all day watching innocent people who are lost suddenly confuse some garden for their own pantry,..anyway, just to "entrap" them? =-)

And I suspect some thing similar must be at work behind the scenes in order for someone to feel too "targeted" by railroad trolls hiding under bridges.

Any Rail Law I have ever run into, has been mostly delighted with my polite agreement to leave as requested, at once,..and to not return,, etc.
And simply escorted me 'out of harms way" in doing their jobs.


Of course, I guess it does take some smarts to realize you need to not return to such area's, for quite some time,..lest you MAY end up feeling the wrath,....but that's HARDLY entrapment,..now is it?

Bottom line,..if it "feels" like entrapment to the foamer,.. there is most likely more to the story than they are letting on,...perhaps a GREAT deal more..

[Anonymous]

Off topic, I know,...but I really suspect the fact I listened to him is not such a matter of luck, as it may sound.

In fact, given a shot, I believe it would work with a great many of todays "problem youth" as well, than most would suspect.

He was a big burley sort of guy, one who (according to the story's his friends tell me) believed skinned knuckles were a part of diplomacy, and could MAKE most men see things his way whenever absolutely necessary, but his preferance by far would be to instead get them to WANT to do things his way.

Whenever I'd do something that was "poor citizenship" like, Dad would talk me into seeing how "whatever" I had done, had actually harmed someone else, and made sure I could see why My behavior was "wrong" as if I had done "whatever" to myself,..etc.

I didn't really realize just why this was so powerful in making me value "right" first and foremost, until I got older, and started watching how others raised their children....You can see the more common result everywhere, where parents will just smack the kid, and tell them to be ashamed, "now go watch TV".....--the only message the kid soaks up *there* is "DON'T GET CAUGHT"....


I recall one time I shot Dad with my cap pistol,..and he keeled over and layed in the middle of the Living room for a good two hours, "dead",..I ended up getting histyrically "sorry" over my deed, and eventually mom got upset with him for making me cry so, and made him stop "learning me the hard way"

Let me assure you, that I would be absolutely the last person to ever pull off a "columbine highschool" type affair,....despite being a REAL gun nut par excellance...because I had someone willing to take the time....and prove to me that my own actions would be my own making or my own consequences.

I think a lot of kids end up believing that if the "victim" has no face, then there IS NO victim..

[Anonymous]

Location, location, location. It realy seems that each RR or town will follow it's own guidelines. Now more then ever everyone is being a little more *anal* about the exact area fans are allowed in. But if you are alowed on/near the rails please dont take it for granted.

Of course yards will always be out of bounds. On the open rails people seem to feel that they are safer then they realy are. My rule of thumb is to keep clear of any ballast (rocks) on and near the rails. This is still not usualy far enough away from the rails in many places. This is also why I dubed that area "The red zone"
1)The rocks where red (In my area)
2)If Im on/near this area when a train passed...Id also join those rocks :(
3)Keep off Its not worth the risk!!

I noticed a few other post that also are very accurate. Most of the time (9 times of 10)I can get the picture I need with out setting foot on RR property. If I cannot then I tend not to even risk getting in "the red". Again we are in the midwest so I can not say this is the same for every one. So keep a wandering eye and a ear to the air....
Icemanmike-Milwaukee