“No Trespassing” Entrapment

[Anonymous]

I'm not a railroader, just an railfan so I may not completely understand some things, BUT, Why would anyone need to get anywhere within 50 feet of a track?? Even the cheap cameras need that much distance to get just one engine or car.
I spent the summers at my Grandmas house and she had the twice daily Prineville Railroad crossing her property. Even as a kid I knew better than to be on the tracks or anywhere near them (the engineer knew every kid along the right of way and whos house to visit if we did something stupid).
As for signage, it can be uninformative. We live in Wichita KS now and just south of town the BNSF main parralles K-15 about 150' away, until a kid on an atv got hit by a hi-speed southbound (trying to jump the track) I really don't think anyone knew the entire strip of dirt and grass was ATSF/BNSF property, eneryone thought it was state/county property. The "No Tresspassing" signs ran along the ballasted edge of the track. It's always been a real good, and we thought "safe" place, to park and watch trains, especilally the "plane train" taking Boeing 737s to Washington. Well long story shortened up a little. 1- Use a good lens and stay off the tracks. 2- Trains are bigger than you, don't care who has the right of way, and can't stop.
3- Get in the way and die!

[edblysard]

Good, plan on doing the same myself.
Stay frosty
Ed

[Anonymous]

I sure do Ed being that I am a first year new hier for the BNSF I plan to do this for 20 years and leave with all 20 intact stay safe. Ed
Rodney

[edblysard]

Still got all 20 of mine(if you dont count the webs), still got all yours?
Stay Safe Rodney,
Ed

[edblysard]

Try the cable from a centerbeam flat, with the hook still attached, caught a switch handle, pulled the whole thing flat of the ties, slung the switch and what was left of the linkage about 45-5o feet, then derailed the second car after it. My helper heard it coming, yelled a warning via radio, and was moving south real quick. For a old guy, I think I gave him a run for his money, we hit the ditch at the same time, I cleared it, he didnt. That cable must have been loose and hanging/draging for miles, just decided to wait till someone was around to tear something up. Funny how it works out that way.
Ed

[wallywalkabout]

Wally
Y

[wallywalkabout]

Hi Rodney, Larry & Ed
What part of DANGER don't these railroad fans understand?? I remember my 1st month with the Boston & Maine, learning my job which included how to hoop orders. My mentor warned me to step back away from the train after I'd hooped the engineer while I was waiting for the caboose.(To hoop the brakeman/conductor). I was at Bellows Falls, VT. one night and had hooped the front end of a 40+ freight, when I heard a heard a very light slapping metalic sound. Long story to short, it was a piece of metal strapping 6'-8' swing'ng in the breeze attached to a box car. Had I stood an inch closer, I'm sure there would be a part of me missing. FACT--There just is not anyplace around moving trains that is safe. Experience trainmen know it, novice trainmen learn it, and non-trainmen DO NOT BELONG AROUND MOVING TRAINS!! Wally

[edblysard]

Especially in yard service, I want my engineer to know where I am and what I am doing at all times. There are several "jobs" working in most yards at the same time on the same yard radio frequency, and some times your radio transmission gets "walked on", over spoken. If your engineer misunderstands or hears someone else say strech em out, and he thinks its you, and unlucky you happen to be kneeling down laceing air hoses together? Well, you can see the problem, So until my engineer hears me say "mobile 1 on job 252 in the clear", he will not move, or take any other signal. If I spoke to him via radio when I went in the red zone, I must "clear" myself via radio. My helper cannot tell him I am clear, in fact, no one else but myself can clear me out of the red zone, and I am not allowed to clear anyone else. If I used hand signals to go in the zone, the engineer must see me in the clear, and I must signal him I am clear, only after that may he move the train. This insures that there will be no movement when a trainman is in between the cars, it gets pretty busy on a radio in the yard, lots of people talking at the same time, and it easy to misunderstand or confuse one person with another. We are not allowed to use names, imagine if two engineers are named Bob, and the guy on the top end says, "drag em out, Bob", and my engineer happens to be a Bob too, and I happen to be tieing a brake on a car, and my Bob does just what he was told to do, he drags em out? Ouch, I really didnt need those ribs, did I. Or worse, I could be laceing hoses when this happens. Before the red zone rule, it happened a lot, most of us expected it, and were ready when it did, but it only takes once, and its all over with. The three step Brakie refers to is the same thing, just different lingo, the three steps required to prevent movement, set the brake, center the reverser, open the generator field.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[BRAKIE]

I am glad things are alot safer now then when I worked on the railroad..When I frist started braking on the PRR it was not unusual to have to stand on the roof of a boxcar and relay hand signals to the engineer when we was switching cars around a curve.Not the best place to be durning a switching move..

On the C&O/Chessie things was alot better and some what safer.

I recall hearing the Conrail local on my scanner,the conductor would say "Applay the 3 step 8188(or what ever unit) and in between".The engineer would reply,"The 3 step applied and in between".Then,"In the clear 8188 take 'em east..The engineer would reply,"In the clear and take 'em east".

I always thought that was much safer then the way it was done when I worked on the PRR and much better then on the C&O/Chessie.

[Anonymous]

Why is it so inportant for the fan to trespess on the railroad? Here is my 2 cent worth being I am a railroad empolyee in train yard & engine srevice. Please stay off the right of way it is very dangerous take for example bulkhaed cars with lumber the cables have been knowen to break and spill tthe load all over go ahead a get nailed by a 2x4 doing 55 mph if you live you will be maimed for life. As for the red & dead that Ed was talking about remember that Ed & I do this job for a living our goal is to go home at the end of the day still entact with everything working. When we have to go in between we tell the engineer in between and he/she responds by saying set & centered and can not move until we say in the clear. When I am out on the road I see alot of places up here in Illinois that can be photographed without being next to the rails. Rodney conductor/switchman BNSF

[edblysard]

Funny you mentioned "red zone", a phrase we are required to tell or signal our engineer when we will be between the cars, hooking up air hoses, adjusting drawbars, setting hand brakes. He(the engineer) is required by the FRA to acknowledge our transmission or signal, and set the reverser to center, set the independent brake on the locomotive, and turn the generator field off, to prevent movement of the train while we are in the "red zone". He has to respond with either a whistle signal, or a radio transmission that he has "set and centered on job..." before we can enter the red zone. These are current FRA requirements. We also refer to the area within 8 feet of the centerline of tracks as the dead zone, in that if you are standing in that zone, and a railcar or tain passes, your dead. As to how far away from the tracks is far enough? Well, most railcars are 14 to 16 feet tall, if they fall over, anything in that area is crushed, and brakeshoes and truck springs can fly a great distance when they come off a moving train, loose metal banding and tiedown cables can reach a far distance from the tracks, so the farther back you are, the better. Buy a good medium telephoto lens, most still have a good depth of field, and you can keep farther away and still get your shot.
Ed

[edblysard]

One weird footnote, fences in Texas are not required to keep people out. In unincorporated areas, erecting a fence is not to keep people from trespassing on your property,, but to keep you and your livestock from doing so on theirs. The law assumes that you know where your property ends, and someone eleses begins, and if you enter their property uninvited or without permission, your are the trespasser. I am not required to put up a fence to keep you out, but instead, to keep me in. The law here referers to ownership by usage, in that if you, the landowner, allow someone to use you land, say a dirt road that cut across your pasture to their back pasture, and you didnt say anything to them the first time you noticed them using it, then you have consented to their use, and part ownership, of that road, even though it is on your property.
If you allow them to graze their cattle on a piece of your land, and dont ask them to stop, the same applies. The law also states, that if a road appears to "not be maintained by a state, county or local athuority, such road should be considered a private road, and one should asume that it is a private road, regardless of the presence of, or lack therein of signage stating such", and that "all unpaved roads outside of incorporated areas should be considered as private, not to be used by the public, and if so used, at the users own risk. In other words, if you see a dirt road, it isnt a public road, "no trespassing" sign or not.
I think were back to that common sense thing again,
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[edblysard]

My dad lived to be 81, and he was still my hero. Dont know, but we may be the last two guys not to dislike our fathers. Never tried to make me into something, I guess he was happy enough with the way I turned out not to need to try.
On the trespassing entrapment, here in Texas, several court cases have set somewhat of a precedence, in that the courts assume people on railroad property fall into 4 categories.
1: Employees, people on property in the direct service or employee of the railroad.
2: Guest, those people on property do some type of work other than that normally performed by employees.
3: Uninvited guest, as in a railfan who shows up all the time, but performs no service to the railroad and is not employeed by the railroad.
4: Trespassers: Those persons the railroad activly wishes to keep off the property.
The first category is sorta self explainatory, the train crews, car men, shop forces, and MOW, those of us who are employeed by the railroad, and are required to be on property to perform our service to the carrier.
Guest encompassed all those who, although not directly employeed by the railroad, are still performing some service, ie outside contracters, building a structure, painters, electrictions, tradesmen hired for a specific job.
Uninvited guest would be the railfan, or a retired railroader who shows up every day to have coffee with the roundhouse foreman. As long as the railroad knows of this persons presence on property, and takes no active action to remove them, the law assumes that they (the carrier) have placed this person in the category of guest, alibet an uninvited one, and therefore has assumed liability for their presence on property.
And now trespassers. Those who perform no service to the carrier, either directly or indrectly, who have no business with the railroad, and those who use railroad property to their gain, either real or imagined.
Trespasser fall into two categories, those the railroad has no knowledge of, and those the railroad is aware of, or suspect exsist.
The first category includes the casual trespasser, the railfan who shows up everyonce in a while to take pictures, the curious who just want a quick look and leave, and thoses who walk across the track going somewhere. This also includes the people who drive around the crossing gates, ie they wernt planing on staying on property, just using it to get to another destination off property.
The other category is the habitual, or criminal trespasser, those who are on property, fully aware they are trespassing, with the intention of causing trouble, committing a crime, vandelisim or theft, destruction of private property ect.
The first two categories fall under the carriers protection, in that both have a legal right to expect the carrier to provide for their safety, including providing a safe working enviroment and providing some measure of safty training.
Those people in the third category, if the carrier is aware they are on property, also have the above mentioned rights. If the carrier is unaware of their presence, they do not, and fall into the trespasser category. By the way, legealy, aware means that any employee of the railroad who has knowlegde of this person presence on property, from switchmen to CEO, and takes no action, (reports to the super, calls the gumshoes ect) is considered to be "aware" of their presence and has, by default, included this person in the guest category.
An example of casual trespassing would be, say a foot path the local kids use to cross the yard on their way home from school. If the railroad is aware this path exsist, the are required to take action, lest the "kids" fall into the uninvited guest category. The law requires the carries to take action that would result in the prevention of the casual trespasser being harmed, such as altering the path, putting up no trespassing signs, posted where they could be read, if that failed, then a fence, if that fails, posting a guard, actions the court assumes should keep out those who a trespassing unaware. If the railroad follows these steps, and someone still is injured on property, they( the injured) have no claim against the carrier
, on the other hand, if the railroad fails to attempt to prevent casual trespassing, they(the carrier) assume responsibility for whatever happen to the trespasser.
The last category, the habuital or criminal trespasser, are those who tear down the signs, pull up the fences in a attempt to enter railroad property with the intent to commit a crime, from theft to "tagging" a car with spraypaint. These people have no claim against the railroad if harmed, they are aware they are breaking the law, and have legaly assumed the risk for themselves. This includes the habuital gate runner, or those who use the railroads private roads to gain access to other places.
If the railroad can show that you are one of the people who consistently and constanly drive around the gates when they are down, and you have been cited at least once by local law enforcement for this, or the carriers own police force can document that you exhibit such behavior through photographs, log notations ect, you can be charged with criminal trespass here.
Ricks sugestion to railfans who have been escorted off property once to stay away for a while is very good advice. If your are repeatedly found on property, the carrier can ask for a restraining order preventing you from comming within 50 feet of their property, and if you violate this order, you can be jailed for criminal trespass, even though all you wanted to do was take a few pictures. In other words, we are required by law to ask you to leave railroad property, escort you off property to assure your safety, then take actions to prevent you from re entering the property. If we dont do this, we are consenting to you being there, and assuming responsibility for your safety. No railroad I can think of would allow someone who is not a employee or a invited guest to remain, its too risky.
As for which way the no trspassing sign faces, here the statue read that you landowner is required to display signs no more that 50' apart, on posts, on fences or in such a manner that the casual observer would have knowledge that the property protected by said signs was private, and that entrance to such lands was forbidden. It make no mention as to which way the sign has to face, as long as it can be seen by the "casual" observer. Most of the land in Texas is private property, not public, and the law also allows the land owner, if he finds someone traspassing, to notify that person that they are not welcome on the property, and if the landowner files a complaint with the local law enforcement, and you trespass again, regardless of wether there were signs or not, the law assumes you had foreknowledge of the private status of the property, and therefore trespassed willingly, which is a class c misdomeanor here for the first offense.
Stay Frosty
Ed

[BRAKIE]

Iceman,I fully agree one should stay out of the yards and at least 30' back from the tracks.Never ever turn your back on a moving train,always look for any danger from a moving train.Flying ballast could mean a derailment is about to take place.

Now I worked 3 years and 4 months on the PRR/PC as a brakeman,I know all to well of the dangers of a yard,later I worked for the C&O under the Chessie System for 6 years 2 months.So,I am more aware of the dangers of railfanning.

All to often while railfaning of late,I seen hot shot railfans taking undue risks for that perfect picture..Then wonder and complain about the railroad cop chasing them off-small wonder.

The hot dog of hot dogs had to be thr joker 7 years ago in Marion Ohio,He set his camcorder up on the east bound main to tape a west bound Conrail train,a east bound started blowing for Kenton Ave,about 1/4 mile from the Marion Station,we yell to get his attention but to no avail,we finally threw ballast and got his attention, and pointed toward Kenton Ave and yelled east bound,by this time the EB was in sight.He got off the tracks,got in his car and left.I have no doubts we saved that mans life...

[Anonymous]

Location, location, location. It realy seems that each RR or town will follow it's own guidelines. Now more then ever everyone is being a little more *anal* about the exact area fans are allowed in. But if you are alowed on/near the rails please dont take it for granted.

Of course yards will always be out of bounds. On the open rails people seem to feel that they are safer then they realy are. My rule of thumb is to keep clear of any ballast (rocks) on and near the rails. This is still not usualy far enough away from the rails in many places. This is also why I dubed that area "The red zone"
1)The rocks where red (In my area)
2)If Im on/near this area when a train passed...Id also join those rocks :(
3)Keep off Its not worth the risk!!

I noticed a few other post that also are very accurate. Most of the time (9 times of 10)I can get the picture I need with out setting foot on RR property. If I cannot then I tend not to even risk getting in "the red". Again we are in the midwest so I can not say this is the same for every one. So keep a wandering eye and a ear to the air....
Icemanmike-Milwaukee

[Anonymous]

Off topic, I know,...but I really suspect the fact I listened to him is not such a matter of luck, as it may sound.

In fact, given a shot, I believe it would work with a great many of todays "problem youth" as well, than most would suspect.

He was a big burley sort of guy, one who (according to the story's his friends tell me) believed skinned knuckles were a part of diplomacy, and could MAKE most men see things his way whenever absolutely necessary, but his preferance by far would be to instead get them to WANT to do things his way.

Whenever I'd do something that was "poor citizenship" like, Dad would talk me into seeing how "whatever" I had done, had actually harmed someone else, and made sure I could see why My behavior was "wrong" as if I had done "whatever" to myself,..etc.

I didn't really realize just why this was so powerful in making me value "right" first and foremost, until I got older, and started watching how others raised their children....You can see the more common result everywhere, where parents will just smack the kid, and tell them to be ashamed, "now go watch TV".....--the only message the kid soaks up *there* is "DON'T GET CAUGHT"....


I recall one time I shot Dad with my cap pistol,..and he keeled over and layed in the middle of the Living room for a good two hours, "dead",..I ended up getting histyrically "sorry" over my deed, and eventually mom got upset with him for making me cry so, and made him stop "learning me the hard way"

Let me assure you, that I would be absolutely the last person to ever pull off a "columbine highschool" type affair,....despite being a REAL gun nut par excellance...because I had someone willing to take the time....and prove to me that my own actions would be my own making or my own consequences.

I think a lot of kids end up believing that if the "victim" has no face, then there IS NO victim..

[Anonymous]

>>Sorry to hear you lost your dad so young, it make things hard.
Yeah, it was a shame. In many ways it was probably easier on me at age 7, than it would have been at age 12+. At 7 yrs old you really don't understand life's thornier realities. I just had him up on a pedestal by that time, none of the traditional father/son squabbles over forging me into the kinda young man he always wish he coulda turned out to be,..etc,.. never happened..

He was in all aspects a total hero figure in my eye, and most friends I've talked it through with are quick to point out that much of that would likely have changed once it became more important to him to make me the kinda son he could be proud of,...etc....probably some truth to that.


But, on the "Trespassing entrapment" debate,.....I have to wonder what all Previous history would have to be a part of it all, to get a rational person to be of a mind to see Railroads as having time, interest, and/or motivation to actually play such mind games in the first place. More likely, the railroadshave better things to focus resources on than merely endulging the fantasy's of the "Richard Kimble wannabe's" all across this land with a game of cat and mouse?

I may not be the best example, since my railway trampin' spells tend to go in spurts, ..6-8 years can go by without me even feeling the "itch",...then , for no good reason I'll get the bug, spend all my spare time in a week hiking through some obscure industrial district, see the new paint schemes, marvel at some ancient fallen flag boxcar still in original paint, and evidently, still in revenue service, and simply muse over how the way rails on active sidings are shiny, while those on dormant sidings have the tell tale powder rust coat,..etc and then I'm good for another good 7 years...

Hard to imagine the railroads even knowing I'm there, let alone "laying in wait" for me.


Course,...I do tend to get a might cautious whenever I see some stranger at work taking pictures, with no explanation....first thought is always "someones lawyer is getting ready to sue us, this must be another "slip and fall" litigation in the making" Forcing even me to become impatient, if not anti social,... substituting a hostile, "What do you think you're doing with that camera? BEAT IT or I'm calling a cop!!" for the more normal "you must be lost,..huh?" when finding folks where they don't belong,..in my place of work...

By the same token,...if I were to look out my back window at home and see some stranger walking through my back yard, who minded his own business, had a destination, and kept headed towards it,...I can't see much use in assuring that a confrontation festers up,... But, if the same guy is waltzing through 2-3 times a week and I notice that my reddest and plumpest ripe tomatoes are disappearing out of my garden before I can get to 'em,....yeah,...*that* guy is likely to start feeling "entrapped" in short order...(what kinda sicko hides out in his house all day watching innocent people who are lost suddenly confuse some garden for their own pantry,..anyway, just to "entrap" them? =-)

And I suspect some thing similar must be at work behind the scenes in order for someone to feel too "targeted" by railroad trolls hiding under bridges.

Any Rail Law I have ever run into, has been mostly delighted with my polite agreement to leave as requested, at once,..and to not return,, etc.
And simply escorted me 'out of harms way" in doing their jobs.


Of course, I guess it does take some smarts to realize you need to not return to such area's, for quite some time,..lest you MAY end up feeling the wrath,....but that's HARDLY entrapment,..now is it?

Bottom line,..if it "feels" like entrapment to the foamer,.. there is most likely more to the story than they are letting on,...perhaps a GREAT deal more..

[Anonymous]

I totally agree Wabash. Poetically stated.........

[BRAKIE]

If 50' from the right of way was trespassing,then I know many streets that are illegal as well as some houses and stores..I know alot of hot spots that is 50' from the tracks and nothing is said..

[Anonymous]

i have been told by railroad people ,that if you or i are within 50 feet of any railroad posted or not,"YOU ARE TRESPASSING" 7 if you want togo to court good luck,becasue the rr has lts of the GREEN STUFF....... AKA HUB

[edblysard]

Thats what I was taught, dosnt mean I am always smart to excerise it all the time though...
Thanks
Ed

[croteaudd]

It is commendable that your father took the time to teach you right from wrong, and that you actually listened to him. Much success to you!

[croteaudd]

Ed: The ability you have in seeing where other people are come from is truly commendable. Your father gave you something to cherish.

[Anonymous]

Is anyone else in the forum from the southeast? Sounds to me like things are very different in other parts of the country concerning rr's. I only wear a jacket about 2 weeks out of the winter and I only cover my ears to keep the horns from bursting them. The railyard near where I live here doesn't have the god awful crime problem that seems to be evident in other places, and you hardly ever here of a train vs anything collision. I went to the train yard to apply for a job one time to fill the trains with diesel whenever they needed it, and not only was the guy nice, he took me to lunch because he kept me waiting. Sometimes I still wish I had got that job. You had to cross a public road with the tanker to get to the refill tower so a CDL was required, which I didn't have.

[Anonymous]

You are right about it being just short of suicide even more so when it is the bowl tracks the summer is not to bad your ears are not covered but the winter is a whole different story cars can sneak up on you in an instant because your ears are covered up. Rodney Switchman

[Anonymous]

By the way they don't use creosote in this area on any of the rails I have been around. All of them have concrete ties and steel spring clips in leu of wood and nails.

[edblysard]

All the sense in the world. Most of the railroaders I know wouldnt give you a hard time, as long as you didnt interupt them. If you wait till they take a break, and approach them, most will talk your ear off. I wasnt trying to imply that all fans are trespassers or vandals, but trying to show that we do try to keep casual traspassers out, and that the habitual trespasser often turns into the vandal, even if he hasnt done anything, after several raided boxcars, everybody becomes suspect...I have noticed that the really sincere fans often report thing they find wrong, dragging equipment, broken rail, I even had one point out a sliding wheel set, due to a hand brake left on. Most of them seem to adopt a strech of track as their own. Sorry to hear you lost your dad so young, it make things hard.
My Dad also set a example for me, he tried to teach me to look at every thing from at least two points of view, even if I didnt agree with one, I at least got a feeling for where the other person was coming from. Spankings, whuppings and such were very rare here too, words were the tools my parents used to explain the who, what, when and where of right and wrong, they both taught by example. I was a late in life baby, mom was 38, dad too, both were from the WWII era, so their world had a lot of, "Gentlemen dont do things like that:, or " Ladys never say things like that", so I grew up expecting a lot more better behavior from other people than most folks. I didnt mean to discourage you, or any fan from trainwatching, just to remind you some yards may not be as freindly as you expect. And again, if your not sure its railroad property, then act as if it is.
And your correct, some thing just "feel" wrong, even if your not sure why. I listen to those hunches most of the time, its kept me out of hot water a lot in 44 years.
Stay Frosty,
ED

[wallywalkabout]

Hi Rodney, Your right, "please don't trespass on railroad property", especially in the yards. As a former tower director (B&M), I'd liken walking through a switching yard to just short suicide. Try stepping on a rail, slipping between a switch point, and at the same time the TD throws that particular switch. You're trapped and you will wish your were dead when it's over. What has happen to commen sense and the respect for private property??

[Anonymous]

I only package those, I use ones I buy for the "free teasers", although the mentality of people that even buy them could be a lot clearer now that you mention it. I will sell 'em dog crap if they are willing to pony up the dough for it.