Hurricane Katrina

[mvlandsw]

"If you never lived on the Gulf Coast, you might not get it, but there is nothing to save in New Orleans right now other than the streets....it is going to be a lot worse than you can imagine...the Gulf is a whole nuther critter, totally different than the Pacific or the Atlantic...gators and snakes and all the fun things!"
Maybe it's time to abandon New Orleans and build a new city in a safer place. It's been known for years that the current location was a disaster waiting to happen. A US Army Corp of Engineers spokesman said that the cost benefit studies did not allow building better levees. It might be better to build an entirely new city than to salvage the current location only to see a rerun in the future.

[Junctionfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

As far as enforcing laws and not knowing where to put prisoners including current prisoners from destroyed prisons, pretend it is war time. What do you do with a whole bunch of POWs during war? Answer; build stockades. There is a whole bunch of fields and stuff that are empty in the surrounding states even that could be set up with tent cities for the refugees, mobile hospitals and MASH units for the wounded and sick and POW camp style stockages/bases. Build some facilities for transloading supplies and repairing/refueling choppers as needed. Ask folk in surrounding states to temperarly donate there boats if they have them and move them to New Orleans so authorities can have a means other than helicopter to evacuate the stranded on their roofs and attics.

I really don't understand why they can't figure this out. It's not friggen rocket science.

Too bad your talents are being wasted here.....since you seem to know exactly what to do sitting in your comfy home on the computer. Grow up Andrew.

Excuse me? I have grown up; and I care. I think it you have one hell of a nerve to flame me just because I am getting emotional about people dying. This is an emotional situation and when it comes to watching grown men crying because they have lost loved ones, I make no apologies for getting upset because it is upsetting.

I don't know what you see Dan but I see people in a living hell and I know I can't do anything about it. I don't think you should be making those kind of comments about members when this is a dicussable topic on an open forum. This is me venting my stress in a healthy way and hoping maybe I am giving some helpful ideas whoever is watching.

Andrew...I've seen alot worse than this and up close and in person....yeah really.....all the sage advice you keep doling out ain't helping anyone....."someone needs to, and they shoulda done that, and how could they do this".....If I was as half as smart now as I was when I was your age...we'd have no wars, free beer, people would live forever and have all the sex we wanted....but alas I digress.....sometimes you need to engage brain before keyboard.....The folks there are doing the best they can. You honestly..unless you have see something like this before....a hurricane, plane crash, mass grave, destroyed city..in person....and I mean in person smelling it...cannot grasp the severity and awe of it. So just give it a rest.

Dan

Well I am NOT use to it. You just don't get that do you.

I refuse to get into an inappropriate flame war with you so just forget it; you can be as nasty as you want with yourself; in fact I encourage you to keep those kind of insensitive comments to yourself.

[edblysard]

Andrew...
He’s not "flaming you" , he is making a point.

There has never been a serious effort by the feds to prepare the Gulf Coast for something like this, we have always been pretty much on our own when it comes to hurricanes and tropical storms and their aftermath.

Because we have always managed to survive them, and even with the really devastating ones, we rebuild and go one, they had never been a reason for the feds to do a lot.

In reality, you can’t prepare every city along the coast...and you can’t really tell where the hurricane will hit...look at this one, at the last minute, it changed course.

And we can’t really force people to leave, it just can’t be done.

When they get the levees repaired, and the pumps working, its going to be even worse...think about all the people who were trapped in the attics of their homes and drowned, or died and have floated off into the city...

New Orleans will become a no mans zone…disease will rum rampant, most of the buildings will not survive, Gulf Coast waters are very full of silt, any wooden building will have to be removed, all the sewers will be full of sand and debris, they will have to surround the city with armed forces to keep people out…and it might come down to having to keep some people in….

Modern man is so dependent on our technology that we expect to be able to get in our car, or jump on a train or plane, and go where we want to…but there is nothing there anymore; no roads, no track, and the few small air strips near the city can’t handle any large air craft…

From where you sit, is seems somewhat simple, just run a bunch or trains in there and load them up…but there are no tracks, and people cant get to the ones that are still usable…

My wife made a comment this morning, New Orleans is going to become the American Atlantis…

This might be the Pompeii of modern times.

And the people there are not co operating a lot...National Guard has suspended flying refugees out of the Superdome area to the staging areas for the buses...someone shot at them last night.
A plane loaded with relief supplies refused to land at a small strip outside of the city, the pilot reported a band of armed looters on the runway waiting to rob the plane when it landed...

If you want to get mad about this, get mad at the people who helped cause this mess....the people who didn’t build levees to withstand a class 4 hurricane, and the people who refused to leave when the were told to...and keep in mind, a lot of the ones who stayed were the criminal element, those who wanted to stay and loot and rob the old and ill who couldn’t leave.

Ed

[Junctionfan]

I stopped talking about running trains to there a long time ago and was just getting into the basics.

Forget it; I'm done here, I have a lot better things to do with my time then debate my reasons for being concerned only to be chastised for it. It almost sounds like I am being penalized "verbally" for caring too much about other human beings.

[nanaimo73]

This site has a lot of information.
www.gnocdc.org/
It looks like half of New Orleans is above Sea level, including the Airport and the Superdome. Most of the suburbs do not seem to be as bad as the TV coverage would imply.

[Anonymous]

A distribution system brought to its knees
As ports remained closed from Louisiana to Florida on Wednesday (Aug. 31), some 300 barges containing grains and other products were left homeless, according to this report by Alexei Barrionuevo and Claudia H. Deutsch published by the New York Times.
Under the management of Cargill, a large agriculture producer and exporter, the barges were caught in a bottleneck caused by the devastation of Hurricane Katrina. Now they are floating on rivers north of New Orleans with nowhere to go.

Two days after one of the worst storms ever ravaged the Gulf Coast, large parts of the nation's distribution system were feeling the effects. Major transportation arteries were clogged, and imports and exports had slowed to a crawl. The logistical logjam could delay the production of hundreds of everyday products. The result is that consumers, even those far from the storm's epicenter, might have to pay more for everything from coffee and bananas to paint and tires.

Many of the Cargill barges, for example, were loaded with corn, soybeans and wheat, for shipment out of the country, before the storm struck early Monday.

With the harvest season for grain less than a month away, grain processors said they were concerned over how long shipping would remain constrained before they must begin their busiest export time of the year, to Europe and Asia.

Grains are the largest export likely to be affected by the devastation to the ports, because they are so dependent on the river barge system. In July, about half of the country's grain exports were shipped from the Mississippi River gulf outlet, said David D. Lehman, managing director for commodities at the Chicago Board of Trade. "Those facilities are all without power and could be impacted by the flooding," he said.

"If this is a 5- to 10-day problem, it won't significantly impact the grain markets," Mr. Lehman said. If it is longer, then importers will start switching to buying from other ports, mostly likely along the West Coast.

But with gasoline and diesel prices being sharply affected by the loss of refining capacity caused by the storm, shifting to other ports will create costly logistical complications that will probably be passed to consumers in the form of higher prices, shipping firms said.

David Feider, a spokesman for Cargill, said it was "not feasible" to divert grain shipments to trucks or trains because of the high cost and the loading infrastructure required.

Imports are not faring any better. Shippers were scrambling to arrange alternative ports for incoming shipments of oil, chemicals and steel additives. Millions of pounds of coffee remained in storage in New Orleans. "Everything is at a standstill right now," Mr. Feider said.

Government officials struggled Wednesday to assess the scope of the damage to the port of New Orleans.

Coast Guard officials said that they were finishing underwater surveys of shipping channels. So far they have found an unusual amount of soil and sand build-up, and a number of buoys and other navigational aides either missing, destroyed or misplaced, creating the potential for ships to run aground, said Petty Officer John Miller, a Coast Guard spokesman. Some ships struggled with the question of whether to divert to other ports.

The Port of Houston Authority said it was receiving inquiries from carriers about possible diversions. A cargo ship laden with rubber and timber, originally slated to make calls at New Orleans and Pascagoula, Miss., was diverted to Houston Wednesday night, the port authority said.

Chiquita Brands International said it had no choice but to reroute shipments of bananas and other fresh produce to ports like Freeport, Tex., and Port Everglades, Fla. Chiquita's facilities in Gulfport, Miss., which last year handled about 25 percent of its banana imports to the United States from Central America, were too damaged to receive shipments, the company said.

Meanwhile, companies struggled to get products out of New Orleans. More than 700,000 bags of coffee, each weighing 132 or 150 pounds, remained in storage in New Orleans, said the Chicago Board of Trade.

Procter & Gamble said it suffered a heavy loss of coffee production. About half of its Folgers brand of coffee comes out of New Orleans. The facility has been shut since Saturday, and Doug O. Shelton, a Procter spokesman, said the company had no idea when it could reopen. "We're still in the process of trying to re-establish contact with the people who worked in the area," he said.

In recent years, ports in Long Beach, Calif., and in the Pacific Northwest became so congested that some companies began importing container shipments of consumer products directly from Asia to gulf ports to more easily distribute to customers in the South and Midwest.

Wal-Mart opened a mammoth distribution center outside Houston this summer as part of a direct-import strategy. Christi Gallagher, a spokeswoman for the company, said that while two distribution centers were affected by the storm, the Houston facility and Wal-Mart's many other distribution centers spared the company any major disruptions.

Others were not so lucky. Damage was so heavy at one of DuPont's largest titanium dioxide plants, which supplies whiteners and brighteners to paint and coatings manufacturers, and to a plant that makes a chemical precursor to the polyurethane foams used in car dashboards and appliances, that the company has invoked legal clauses used to shield itself from liabilities when it inevitably has to renege on some supply contracts.

"It's too early to say how much we've lost, but we've had extensive flooding," said Kelli Kukura, a DuPont spokeswoman.

Truckers are also feeling the effects. Shipments in and out of the New Orleans region represent about $1 million a day for Yellow Roadway, a $10 billion trucking company, "and since commerce in the area has pretty much stopped, it will affect those revenues," said William D. Zollars, the chairman.

But Mr. Zollars is more concerned about costs than revenues. Yellow Roadway has 20 terminals in the area. "Our terminal in New Orleans has been reduced to a concrete slab, and with communications so bad, we don't know how much damage we've had at others," he said.

(The preceding report by Alexei Barrionuevo and Claudia H. Deutsch was published by the New York Times on Thursday, Sept. 1, 2005. Alexei Barrionuevo reported from Chicago for this article and Claudia H. Deutsch from New York. Jeff Bailey contributed reporting from Chicago, and Melanie Warner from New York.)

September 1, 2005

From UTU Site

[morseman]

our "fearless" leader Paul Martin is finally making a statement.
Said his deputies have been in touch with U.S. counterparts
all along. B.C.'s 45 member Heavy Urban Search & Rescue team have left for Louisiana Hydro Crews and mobile hospitals will be leaving from Ontario Alberta officials said whatever US wants we will assist. Canada will be sending water purification eqpt. Our Disaster Assistance rResponse Team (DART) will be sent.
Red Cross teams being assembled to go. This is only part of it.

My question is??? What is U.S.A's other neighbour doing ????????

[Anonymous]

KCS Makes Progress Toward Clearing Lines

Hurricane Katrina and the resulting storms continue to affect The Kansas City Southern Railway Company's (KCSR) operation in the New Orleans, Louisiana and Gulfport, Mississippi areas and on the eastern portion of the Meridian Speedway between Meridian and Jackson, Mississippi.

Maintenance of way crews have cleared the line from Baton Rouge to Frellsen, which is south of the embargoed stations of Gramercy, Reserve and Norco and is approximately 10 miles outside of New Orleans. The embargo will remain for Gramercy, Reserve and Norco until electric utilities are restored to customers near those stations. All traffic bound for New Orleans from any KCS station or interchange remains under embargo. In addition, Mobile, Alabama, Waynesboro, Quitman and Enterprise, Mississippi are being added to the list of stations under embargo.

Maintenance of way crews are still not able to get close enough to Gulfport, Mississippi by rail to truly assess the damage.

This morning, the intermodal ramp at Jackson reopened and trains are moving west from Jackson on the Meridian Speedway. Maintenance of way crews spent all of yesterday removing trees from the line between Vicksburg and Jackson. Tree removal efforts continue today between Jackson and Meridian. It is anticipated that KCS will be able to begin taking traffic at Meridian later this week. KCSR is taking interchange traffic from an eastern railroad at East St. Louis, Illinois.

To accommodate our customers rerouting needs, traffic has been prioritized into three categories:
1. KCSR traffic not affected by the hurricane will be handled at the current rate and service levels.
2. For KCSR traffic disrupted by the hurricane, carload rule 11 rate matrix is below and provides rates to and from alternative junctions.
3. Any new traffic to KCSR will be handled on an available capacity basis, with long-term contract business receiving priority.

Katrina Rule 11 Rate Matrix for Bridge Traffic Options
* Origins are listed vertical. Destinations are listed horizontal. E. St. Louis, IL Kansas City, MO Neosho, MO Joplin, MO Texarkana, TX Shreveport, LA Dallas, TX Beaumont, TX Monroe, LA
E. St. Louis, IL $825 $1075 $1425 $1650 $1775 $2250 $2225 $2175
Kansas City, MO $825 $625 $700 $1050 $1150 $1550 $1525 $1425
Neosho, MO $1075 $625 $500 $900 $950 $925 $1225 $1050
Joplin, MO $1425 $700 $500 $975 $1075 $1500 $1475 $1350
Texarkana, TX $1650 $1050 $900 $975 $500 $825 $800 $625
Shreveport, LA $1775 $1150 $950 $1075 $500 $750 $750 $500
Dallas, TX $2250 $1550 $925 $1500 $725 $750 $1075 $925
Beaumont, TX $2225 $1525 $1225 $1475 $800 $750 $1075 $800
Monroe, LA $2175 $1425 $1050 $1350 $625 $500 $925 $800

Additional updates will be made as soon as more information becomes available.

[Anonymous]

my cousin comes from the city (left a long time ago). My thoughts are with you - good luck guys and gals and hold on.

[espeefoamer]

Maybe some historian out there can answer this one.How did this hurricane compare in intensity with the one that hit Galveston TX. in 1900.This was the worst natural disaster to hit the USA,with 6000 people killed.I sincerly hope this storms total is nowhere near that.

[Big_Boy_4005]

In terms of dollar damage, this should easily surpass hurricane Andrew, given the widespread nature of the damage, and the fact that it hit a number of cities.

Death toll is going to take a while to figure out. It is like taking "human inventory", similar to what happened post 9/11. The one bright spot with this storm (if there is such a thing) is that many, many, people heeded the warning, and got out of the area.

My understanding of the 6,000 figure for Galveston is that it was more of an educated guess at the time, than an actual body count. Just the other day, over on the NOAA website, it said 6,000 to 12,000 for that storm. That's a pretty big gap.

There will always be a certain number of people unaccounted for. If nobody reports them missing, and they were swept out to sea. Add to that any undocumented aliens. Those numbers should be small though.

Weather forcasting has come a long way since 1900, but it is really modern communications that saved so many lives. I don't think these numbers are going to come close to 6,000, unless a lot of people in New Orleans die from dehydration in the aftermath.

[morseman]

further to my earlier msge re Canadian help
Canada offered to send cargo planes, helicopters and a contigent
of Cdn. army personnel to th States.
Bush said tonite that 12 countries have offered help
Is Mexico one of them ??????
Canadian help has not left yet. Needs permission from the US
and Bush more or less implied foreign aid not yet requested
and that they can do it alone. Once again Bush is snubbing
Canada and other nations

[vsmith]

There are 3 options to me.

1st Repair the levee system which as we now know is for all practical purposes obsolete, rebuild the city in exactly the same place and conditions, wait for the next big hurricane to bullseye the city.

2nd being to invest in a Dutch system of large earthen and concrete dikes surrounding the city, build floodgates at the mouth of Lake Pochutrain and surrounding waterways and divide the city internally into sectors with floodwalls and gates so if a dike ever is breeched again the flooding will be contained to one area. This would be expesive but alot cheaper than flooding the whole dam city up to the rooftops!

3rd. In another forum I pointed out that in the 1850's, every building in the entire downtown of Chicago was raised 10 feet to raise the city above the floodplain of the Chicago river. This was done using little more than picks and shovels, wood blocks, jackscrews and laborers. They raised each building, including some very large multi story masonry ones, one quarter turn at a time, 1/4" at a time in a huge orchestrated effort, using no more sophisticated command and control systems than a man blowing commands on a whistle!

Now I think we are a bit more technically savy that that today, I have seen enormous tracts of land out here transformed by huge earthmoving companies. I propose that the entire city be RAISED. Any wood framed buildings still salvagable after the flood waters are drained should be moved out and stored, any damaged ones should have whatever valuables left rescuable removed, then demo and begin imprting new earth fill. Raise or replace any existing infrastructure (good chance to bring alot of it out of the 19th cent. and into the 21st century) regrade the city section by section, using the old maps to designate property lines. At the downtown smaller buildings could be lifted to the new street elevation and have new foundations built under them.larger buildings would have to be remodeled to accomodate the new street elevation. If that means an 20' ceiling in your plush lobby instead of a 35' ceiling, so be it. Owners might whine and *** but the alternative of a potentail flood destroying thier buildings again might pursued them.

The ultimate objective would be a city that would never face this particular kind of disaster ever again. The flood gate on Lake Ponchutrain would prevent the ocean from surging in if another large hurricane blows there way again, if it did the city would now be above the flood plain, with riverside walks, marinas, and beatiful vistas of the river and lake.

Could this be done, hell yes! in my lifetime? Yeap, could start the day after the waters gone. What will likely happen given the short sightedness of most people in our current administration who could make something like this happen? see option #1.


THIS CAN BE DONE, this is America, the nation that built the Panama Canal! Entire cities are being built on open land out here in the West, mountains become terraces for 100's of homes, plains become entire cities. If Chicago could do it 150 years ago, if we can't do it today because of lack of political will, fear of large scale construction or fear of the costs, then maybe we dont deserve to call ourselves the Greatest Nation on Earth, because we can't even rebuild our own cities after a disaster.

[DPD1]

QUOTE: Originally posted by morseman

our "fearless" leader Paul Martin is finally making a statement.
Said his deputies have been in touch with U.S. counterparts
all along. B.C.'s 45 member Heavy Urban Search & Rescue team have left for Louisiana Hydro Crews and mobile hospitals will be leaving from Ontario Alberta officials said whatever US wants we will assist. Canada will be sending water purification eqpt. Our Disaster Assistance rResponse Team (DART) will be sent.
Red Cross teams being assembled to go. This is only part of it.

My question is??? What is U.S.A's other neighbour doing ????????

Probably what they usually do... Taking advantage of the fact that our resources are now busy with the hurricane, and turning a blind eye while hundreds of their people enter our country illegally every day.

Dave
-DPD Productions - Custom Scanner, MURS, & Ham Antennas-
http://eje.railfan.net/dpdp/

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

There are 3 options to me.

1st Repair the levee system which as we now know is for all practical purposes obsolete, rebuild the city in exactly the same place and conditions, wait for the next big hurricane to bullseye the city.

2nd being to invest in a Dutch system of large earthen and concrete dikes surrounding the city, build floodgates at the mouth of Lake Pochutrain and surrounding waterways and divide the city internally into sectors with floodwalls and gates so if a dike ever is breeched again the flooding will be contained to one area. This would be expesive but alot cheaper than flooding the whole dam city up to the rooftops!

3rd. In another forum I pointed out that in the 1850's, every building in the entire downtown of Chicago was raised 10 feet to raise the city above the floodplain of the Chicago river. This was done using little more than picks and shovels, wood blocks, jackscrews and laborers. They raised each building, including some very large multi story masonry ones, one quarter turn at a time, 1/4" at a time in a huge orchestrated effort, using no more sophisticated command and control systems than a man blowing commands on a whistle!

Now I think we are a bit more technically savy that that today, I have seen enormous tracts of land out here transformed by huge earthmoving companies. I propose that the entire city be RAISED. Any wood framed buildings still salvagable after the flood waters are drained should be moved out and stored, any damaged ones should have whatever valuables left rescuable removed, then demo and begin imprting new earth fill. Raise or replace any existing infrastructure (good chance to bring alot of it out of the 19th cent. and into the 21st century) regrade the city section by section, using the old maps to designate property lines. At the downtown smaller buildings could be lifted to the new street elevation and have new foundations built under them.larger buildings would have to be remodeled to accomodate the new street elevation. If that means an 20' ceiling in your plush lobby instead of a 35' ceiling, so be it. Owners might whine and *** but the alternative of a potentail flood destroying thier buildings again might pursued them.

The ultimate objective would be a city that would never face this particular kind of disaster ever again. The flood gate on Lake Ponchutrain would prevent the ocean from surging in if another large hurricane blows there way again, if it did the city would now be above the flood plain, with riverside walks, marinas, and beatiful vistas of the river and lake.

Could this be done, hell yes! in my lifetime? Yeap, could start the day after the waters gone. What will likely happen given the short sightedness of most people in our current administration who could make something like this happen? see option #1.


THIS CAN BE DONE, this is America, the nation that built the Panama Canal! Entire cities are being built on open land out here in the West, mountains become terraces for 100's of homes, plains become entire cities. If Chicago could do it 150 years ago, if we can't do it today because of lack of political will, fear of large scale construction or fear of the costs, then maybe we dont deserve to call ourselves the Greatest Nation on Earth, because we can't even rebuild our own cities after a disaster.

Vic, If my opinion was worth anything, I would vote for your plan. Any area of the city that was flooded out in this disaster, should be bulldozed, as it is probably not worth salvaging. Clean fill should be brought in, and the land raised at least 10 feet above the current levee top. Then just start with all new utilities in the new high ground.

This would mean that much of the levee system would be replaced with these built up "islands". There would still be sections of the city that would need levee protection, but the overall levee length would be reduced. The remaining levees could be reinforced and hightened. When the next storm breeches the levees, repeat the process, until the bowl is filled.

I realize that we are talking about at least a cubic mile of fill, but it seems like it would be a permanent solution. Your comparison to the Panama Canal construction is a pretty good one.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

There are 3 options to me.

1st Repair the levee system which as we now know is for all practical purposes obsolete, rebuild the city in exactly the same place and conditions, wait for the next big hurricane to bullseye the city.

2nd being to invest in a Dutch system of large earthen and concrete dikes surrounding the city, build floodgates at the mouth of Lake Pochutrain and surrounding waterways and divide the city internally into sectors with floodwalls and gates so if a dike ever is breeched again the flooding will be contained to one area. This would be expesive but alot cheaper than flooding the whole dam city up to the rooftops!

3rd. In another forum I pointed out that in the 1850's, every building in the entire downtown of Chicago was raised 10 feet to raise the city above the floodplain of the Chicago river. This was done using little more than picks and shovels, wood blocks, jackscrews and laborers. They raised each building, including some very large multi story masonry ones, one quarter turn at a time, 1/4" at a time in a huge orchestrated effort, using no more sophisticated command and control systems than a man blowing commands on a whistle!

Now I think we are a bit more technically savy that that today, I have seen enormous tracts of land out here transformed by huge earthmoving companies. I propose that the entire city be RAISED. Any wood framed buildings still salvagable after the flood waters are drained should be moved out and stored, any damaged ones should have whatever valuables left rescuable removed, then demo and begin imprting new earth fill. Raise or replace any existing infrastructure (good chance to bring alot of it out of the 19th cent. and into the 21st century) regrade the city section by section, using the old maps to designate property lines. At the downtown smaller buildings could be lifted to the new street elevation and have new foundations built under them.larger buildings would have to be remodeled to accomodate the new street elevation. If that means an 20' ceiling in your plush lobby instead of a 35' ceiling, so be it. Owners might whine and *** but the alternative of a potentail flood destroying thier buildings again might pursued them.

The ultimate objective would be a city that would never face this particular kind of disaster ever again. The flood gate on Lake Ponchutrain would prevent the ocean from surging in if another large hurricane blows there way again, if it did the city would now be above the flood plain, with riverside walks, marinas, and beatiful vistas of the river and lake.

Could this be done, hell yes! in my lifetime? Yeap, could start the day after the waters gone. What will likely happen given the short sightedness of most people in our current administration who could make something like this happen? see option #1.


THIS CAN BE DONE, this is America, the nation that built the Panama Canal! Entire cities are being built on open land out here in the West, mountains become terraces for 100's of homes, plains become entire cities. If Chicago could do it 150 years ago, if we can't do it today because of lack of political will, fear of large scale construction or fear of the costs, then maybe we dont deserve to call ourselves the Greatest Nation on Earth, because we can't even rebuild our own cities after a disaster.

I vote for both 2 and 3. Long term, sitting on a silt supported collection of tidal marsh land..it'll settle over time. Build new levies after raising the elevation and think long term. Even places that are at sea level, get wiped when a tidal surge occurs, so why not do it right. They have to start over anyway.

Dan

[morseman]

further to my earlier posting re Canadian aid
Canada wishes to send transport planes, helicopters, and a Cdn, army
contigent. However nothing has left Canada yet. Waiting for
G.W.B. to request this aid. On the news tonite there was a first
announcement of 12 contries wishing to contribute aid,
Later list was up to 24 I believe, including Mexico. However in a
statement from Bu***onight, he stated that the U.S. will not need
foreign aid, they can go it alone. Why does he keep alienting
Canada and other countries and making the U.S. an isolationist
nation?

[Anonymous]

morseman

Dont waste your time.Nobody cares about our help form the north.

[edblysard]

Adrian and Vic...
The death toll in Galveston is not conclusive...no real records were kept, nor could they have accounted for all the bodies...
Estimates are from 6000 to 8000…most historians quote the 6000 death toll.

And, to add to Vic's concept...they raised the city of Galveston, from 61st street all the way east to Stewart road, and from the ocean side down to Broadway.

They dug channels several blocks square, brought in dredges, barges and slurry pumps, removed sand from the bay bottom and the beach, and raised the entire city(circa 1900) a few blocks at a time, in some places ten feet.
Surviving buildings were raised on stone piers, and the "fill" dumped under them, then foundations laid, and the buildings set back down.

The farther away from the sea, the less the city was raised, so that the entire city now slopes from the ocean side at ten feet high above mean high tide to the harbor side, which is only a foot or two above the high tide.

This was done on purpose, because the majority of the deaths in 1900 were from people drowning in the storm surge, and after the storm was past.

There had been a small, short levee around the city proper, and most of the foundations of the city buildings and homes were at, or below sea level.
The levee didn’t fail, but the exact opposite, it held good enough to trap the storm surge, and left the city flooded for days.

A sea wall was built, also 10 feet tall, by the Army corp. of engineers, from close to 30th street all the way east to the Marine Corp base on the east end.

Now, if by some chance a surge gets over the sea wall, it will roll right across the island, down hill, and out into the harbor.

Granted, Galveston is a island, as opposed to a land locked city below sea level with a lake on one side, but the concept of raising a city isn’t new, nor is it an impossibility, if they can do it in 1900 with steam dredges, slurry pumps and shovels, we could do it today with the more efficient equipment we have.

To add a train reference to this, the Galveston causeway was being built then, and it was pretty much in the finished stages, wood piers and bents, with a rail line, commuter and freight, no wagon or automobile road.
To get on the island, you either took a train, or a boat.

Because it was destroyed by the storm, when they rebuilt it, they used a then new material, reinforced concrete, with a one lane road for autos and a pedestrian walk, which was the first public road into Galveston, before that, all traffic went by ferry.

This causeway has one of the last working draw bridges in the south, to allow ocean going vessels passage through the intracostal waterway.

If you drive onto the west end of the island, and go to the east end, you can take the ferry across back to the mainland at Bolivar’s Point, said ferry is actually part of IH45, it is maintained and run by the Texas Department of Transportation at no charge.

And, just because I have a few friends in the service, and because they dont get a lot of press...
Next time you see a Coast Guardsman, shake his or her hand, they are doing one hell of a job over there, rescue flights and boat rescue 24/7...
Along with body recovery and removal, these men and women have been there since day one, doing what they do best, with no real thanks..

Ed

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith



3rd. In another forum I pointed out that in the 1850's, every building in the entire downtown of Chicago was raised 10 feet to raise the city above the floodplain of the Chicago river. This was done using little more than picks and shovels, wood blocks, jackscrews and laborers. They raised each building, including some very large multi story masonry ones, one quarter turn at a time, 1/4" at a time in a huge orchestrated effort, using no more sophisticated command and control systems than a man blowing commands on a whistle!

[Anonymous]

How long until a railroad could push a train of empty gondolas into New Orleans to serve as an emergency evacuation train? Both Class-1s running west, UP and BNSF, seem close to reaching New Orleans. How much water depth above the rails would mechanically prevent a train from sloshing though? Have our governments explored the rail options? I'd sure like to see the railroads benefit from the positive press which would follow a few successful rescue trains!

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bigedd

morseman

Dont waste your time.Nobody cares about our help form the north.

I don't think it's meant ro be a slight to anyone and I'm sure that the offer is truly appreciated at all levels. But I would venture to guess that with all the personnel and equipment there or headed that way, it reaches a point where there are too many assets to efficiently manage. People start getting in each others way to do the tasks, plus the support required to sustain the rescuers starts to effect the level of support to the victims, as they require shelter, food, water and fuel also. Not to mention the ugly situation that seems to be developing between the rescuers and those whom seem to be reveling in the misery, shooting at each other and the help.

Dan

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Ray.Lampman

How long until a railroad could push a train of empty gondolas into New Orleans to serve as an emergency evacuation train? Both Class-1s running west, UP and BNSF, seem close to reaching New Orleans. How much water depth above the rails would mechanically prevent a train from sloshing though? Have our governments explored the rail options? I'd sure like to see the railroads benefit from the positive press which would follow a few successful rescue trains!

Even if they could get the people to the railhead, riding in gondolas isn't particularly safe or comfortable. No bathrooms, not much chance for food or water service, difficulty loading and unloading, and then how fast would the train be able to travel?

Then there is the issue of where to take them. The Houston fire marshall has ordered that no more people be admitted to the Astrodome, it is at capacity. The word is that other locations in Houston, San Antonio and Dallas are being set up to receive more refugees.

This whole situation is a logistical nightmare, that nobody ever planned for. I think it's safe to say that some of these people who lived through the actual storm, will die from neglect in the aftermath. There is nothing we can do about it. No amount of money will save them.

Sometimes I wonder if the government isn't deliberately dragging it's feet in order to prove a point. There seem to be some very high expectations on the part of the general public being placed on the governmnet. In the government's defense, nothing like this has ever happened here before.

Is it really the government's job to bail people out when they choose to live in harm's way? I suppose according to the preamble to the constitution some people would say it is!!!

It isn't as if nobody expected a major storm to hit New Orleans. They all knew it was only a matter of time. Government and people alike.

[daveklepper]

1. You cannot imagine how my heart really goes out to those who lost loved ones and to those who are still suffering even though "rescued."

2. San Francisco's fire and earthquake was a disaster of similar magnitude and the city was rebuilt. If the people of New Orleans have enough faith in their future, it will also be rebuilt, and engineers will make the proper decisions to guard against future events like this.

3. Anyone know if the Pearly Thomas 1926-built streetcars were moved to higher ground before the city shut down?

[Tulyar15]

My condolences to all who've been affected by this.

As for gasoline prices etc, I think this article on the BBC website sums up the short and long tern consequences quite well:-


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4204900.stm

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

QUOTE: Originally posted by Ray.Lampman

How long until a railroad could push a train of empty gondolas into New Orleans to serve as an emergency evacuation train? Both Class-1s running west, UP and BNSF, seem close to reaching New Orleans. How much water depth above the rails would mechanically prevent a train from sloshing though? Have our governments explored the rail options? I'd sure like to see the railroads benefit from the positive press which would follow a few successful rescue trains!

Even if they could get the people to the railhead, riding in gondolas isn't particularly safe or comfortable. No bathrooms, not much chance for food or water service, difficulty loading and unloading, and then how fast would the train be able to travel?

Then there is the issue of where to take them. The Houston fire marshall has ordered that no more people be admitted to the Astrodome, it is at capacity. The word is that other locations in Houston, San Antonio and Dallas are being set up to receive more refugees.

This whole situation is a logistical nightmare, that nobody ever planned for. I think it's safe to say that some of these people who lived through the actual storm, will die from neglect in the aftermath. There is nothing we can do about it. No amount of money will save them.

Sometimes I wonder if the government isn't deliberately dragging it's feet in order to prove a point. There seem to be some very high expectations on the part of the general public being placed on the governmnet. In the government's defense, nothing like this has ever happened here before.

Is it really the government's job to bail people out when they choose to live in harm's way? I suppose according to the preamble to the constitution some people would say it is!!!

It isn't as if nobody expected a major storm to hit New Orleans. They all knew it was only a matter of time. Government and people alike.

What I want to know is where's MAC - Military Airlift Command. Instead of trains or buses, why not land some C130's on I-10 and get them out 500+ at a time. If that's not possible, then use the buses to shuttle them to the nearest place where a C130 can land, instead of wasting a lot of time driving all the way to Texas. For the time being, fly them to military bases like we did with the Cuban refugees. Stop worrying about looters and 'law & order' and get those people out of there!

[Junctionfan]

The mayor of New Orleans says that they are thinking too small. He wants every single bus to get here now. I can't see why most of that could be. Really, to heck with everybody else; they aren't the ones dying; send transit busses from cities too.

Here is also an idea. Load up the National Guard who supposedly are in Louisiana before heading to New Orleans. Troops get off, refugees get on.

[Anonymous]

What has me concerned after watching the Today show (we don't have cable TV, to much trash for kids to see, inclusing us adults) I sat there starting to worry and think about the devestation that just this single event has caused, how people didn't have any sort of plan in place, a survival kit of some sort, some ignoring the warnings to leave, others taking advantage of others, how people are starting to ignore the law, not planning for those that are without transportation in the first place, medical concernes for those with diabetes, heart conditions, people on oxygen etc. That is just the "simple" stuff.

What is going to happen when we get another terrorist attack that is along this scale, be it a dirty bomb, a real nuke, bio terror etc. Is our government going to be responding in a similar manner, are people going to ignore possible warnings of an impending threat like many did in the south? Are we going to see lawlessness, and I am not talking about looting, but killing people for their cars to leave, rapes, as now being reported, killing or worse yet, people taking rescue supplies from relief workers and then selling them to the survivors at a high cost?

I am sure the terror element is watching all this and thinking real hard about how they can cripple our Nation and we will in effect eat our own because we as a species are prone to just the behavior we are now witnessing.

I think Katrina is our 2nd wakeup call and we had better start getting ready.

I heard how the government, not just the current President but all the way back to the 70's have all cut funding to the Corp of Engineers, Law Enforcement, the AMTRAK scuttling etc. Instead we take all this tax money and spend it on pork, money for pretty bike trails, sports hall of fames, things that are meaningless when you see just what people truly need, protection and substanance in the form of water, food and medicine.

We all need to start thinking about theses things, All change starts at home first. So in a way we can help, maybe not the current vistims, but ourselves for the next event that is sure to come.

I am not a doomsayer, just being realistic after watching all this unfold.

Okay done with my [soapbox]

[tree68]

News Item - Buses headed for convention center delayed 4-5 hours in traffic jam. Folks, there is no infrastructure left there. Highways have been destroyed as well. You still need a mile of more or less flat road to land a C-130, never mind the streetlights and road signs, and there is no room on an interstate to move the aircraft out of the way for loading, so it's one at a time. Land, unload, load, taxi back, take off. Buses are the answer, but you've got to get them there. I have to believe that the effort is there, but the task is massive.

Career fire departments are being asked to provide two-person teams to assist. While the local press indicates that volunteers for the assignment are hardly in short supply, I have to wonder how many firefighters are factoring the violence into their decision.

I don't know that any of us really realize the magnitude of this event. Hurricane Andrew, the Oklahoma F5 tornado, perhaps even the SF earthquake pale in comparison. First the city is raked by the usual destructiveness of a major hurricane, then it's inundated by a flood. Either would be a major catastrophe by itself.

[Modelcar]

UP829....Now that sounds like a refreshing idea....If they can establish somewhere to take them that would be the way to do it....C130's...

[Modelcar]

Tree, oh yes, all so true......but perhaps those C-130's could land somewhere within a 50 mile radius...and help the situation instead of driving those busses 300 plus miles, etc....Of course it's chaotic whatever they try to do.....