Mechanics Strike on Northwestern and are replaced by scabs....

[Anonymous]

This is me 2 days later...

[Anonymous]

I'm not in favor of scabs but I need work. Here is a pic of me the other day at the line...

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098

What is a foamer?

It's what RR people call railfans, not sure what the actual meaning is as to foamer, besides we railfans foam at the mouth for trains??

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098
I meant your blatant liberal nonsense. I am quite interested in the subject. I subscribe to trains for the business information as much as about being a rail fan and taking pictures. What is a foamer?

James,

We all come here from different places and situations in life. And its nice to see a bright, articulate young man as you posting here on this board. But, it is obvious that you have limited your intake of information to one point of view. I would suggest that you broaden your base of knowledge by taking in a boarder buffet of information from multiple sources. Read about both sides of the issues.

Jim

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken

Good. Blatant nonsense????? Keep taking pictures of the pretty trains.....foamer.

I meant your blatant liberal nonsense. I am quite interested in the subject. I subscribe to trains for the business information as much as about being a rail fan and taking pictures. What is a foamer?

[espeefoamer]

It was a strike against a bankrupt railroad that was the final nail in the coffin of the Rock Island in 1980[:(][:(!][xx(].

[gacuster]

As a local government employee I belong to AFSCME and the biggest raise we have gotten over the past 15 years or so has been 3% while at the same time paying a greater share of our health insurance so we are barely keeping even or perhaps losing ground when you consider inflation. We cannot strike and the work force has shrunk as retiring workers have not been replaced. Service cuts and increased use of machines enable the remaining employees to handle the workload. Some managerial positions have been eliminated also, so overall there has been a cooperative effort to control costs while maintaining the status quo.

[Paul Milenkovic]

QUOTE:
3. Perhaps you should consider getting your facts straight before spouting off your peurile, unsubstantiated and inflammatory invective.

My facts aren't straight with respect to the union status of workers at Southwest. In fact a raised a question mark regarding their form of labor representation. But one thing I am pretty sure of based on extensive reading of news coverage in Aviation Week over the years is that Southwest doesn't have the same wage scales and labor agreements that the "majors" have, and while that is only one part, it is part of their competitive advantage.

I also didn't initiate the use of the term "scab" to describe a replacement worker, who could be a laid off worker from another airline with the necessary skills or could even be a management or supervisory employee told to do a different job "or else."

I happen to think the term "scab" represents a lot of hate and the use of this word to rally people to the union movement is part of its darker side. I have made some positive comments about unions and I also have made some critical comments about unions, but if unions are completely above approach and beyond even any constructive criticism, than I suppose my remarks are indeed "peurile (sic), unsubstantiated and inflammatory."

My point is that if a person is going to hurl the hate-filled word "scab" at the Northwest replacement mechanics, and yes, there is a reason to hate "scabs" as breaking labor solidarity and hurting all workers, where do you draw the line? Are replacement mechanics "scabs" but are the Northwest pilots and flight attendants not "scabs" because they are permitting the airline to function by not honoring the picket lines. If Northwest goes out of business and Southwest picks up some Northwest routes (a hypothetical), are the Southwest union workers in turn "scabs" for working on those routes where fellow Northwest workers once had jobs? Where do you draw the line?

QUOTE:
Northwest has been hiring and training the replacement mechanics ( I hate the word scab ) for months, in anticipation of this strike. This fact really angers the union, and is at the heart of their accusation that the company was never bargaining in good faith, prior to the strike deadline.

One possible explanation is that not only was Northwest hiring replacement mechanics in anticipation of a strike, they may also have made a completely unacceptable contract offer to force a strike as a way of breaking the union But there are a lot of unknowns. Northwest is genuinely in financial trouble and we don't know if the union made a good faith counter offer to help out in any way. We don't know the circumstances of the replacement mechanics. I don't know if I would want to hire on as a replacement mechanic and get the ire of my union brethren and get a job for a company that is about to land wheels up.

And I don't think I asked that people cut out the politics either because there is politics in railroads, politics in the Northwest situation, politics in everyday life. I did take issue with some glib slogans, and if I my attempts to form tempered responses to glib slogans are "peurile, unsubstantiated and inflammatory invective", I guess so be it.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by drephpe

QUOTE: Originally posted by Paul Milenkovic


Terrible people these scabmechanics. Suppose these scabmechanics keep Northwest out of Chapter 11 and help other union people keep their pensions, or suppose they keep Northwest out of liquidation so, I don't know, Southwest doesn't take over their routes, where Southwest has an entirely different "labor agreements" (don't know if they are even union). I suppose that makes the whole of Southwests's labor force scabpilots, scabattendents, and scabmechanics as well.

Regarding your quote:

1. Just what exactly does Southwest Airlines have to do with a strike at Northwest Airlines??

2. Southwest's hardworking line employees are union, many TWU, also ALPA, and would most certainly take tremendous offense at your characterization of them as "scabs". Particularly since they have absolutely nothing to do with either Northwest's labor troubles or Northwest's current approach to those troubles. In fact, with the exception of DTW, Southwest does not fly into either of NWA's other 2 fortress hubs, MSP or MEM.

3. Perhaps you should consider getting your facts straight before spouting off your peurile, unsubstantiated and inflammatory invective.

I do NOT work for SWA. Nor does any member of my family.

Southwest's business model may actually be the envy of Northwest management. The question has been raised as to whether a full service carrier like Northwest can change itself to a low cost no frills carrier like Southwest.

In the event Northwest would go chapter 13 instead of the much expected chapter 11, there would be a lot of empty gates at the Twin Cities airport, as well as a lot of travelers without a flight. My guess is that all of the remaining airlines would expand their service to fill the void, though we would never be the hub that we are today.

Southwest doesn't even fly to the Twin Cities. The death of Northwest would allow them to get their foot in the door.

This hardline position by the company may be the first step in the reinvention process. If successful in busting the union, they can set new terms with new employees, and get what they need at a price that they can afford.

Northwest has been hiring and training the replacement mechanics ( I hate the word scab ) for months, in anticipation of this strike. This fact really angers the union, and is at the heart of their accusation that the company was never bargaining in good faith, prior to the strike deadline.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Paul Milenkovic


Terrible people these scabmechanics. Suppose these scabmechanics keep Northwest out of Chapter 11 and help other union people keep their pensions, or suppose they keep Northwest out of liquidation so, I don't know, Southwest doesn't take over their routes, where Southwest has an entirely different "labor agreements" (don't know if they are even union). I suppose that makes the whole of Southwests's labor force scabpilots, scabattendents, and scabmechanics as well.

Regarding your quote:

1. Just what exactly does Southwest Airlines have to do with a strike at Northwest Airlines??

2. Southwest's hardworking line employees are union, many TWU, also ALPA, and would most certainly take tremendous offense at your characterization of them as "scabs". Particularly since they have absolutely nothing to do with either Northwest's labor troubles or Northwest's current approach to those troubles. In fact, with the exception of DTW, Southwest does not fly into either of NWA's other 2 fortress hubs, MSP or MEM.

3. Perhaps you should consider getting your facts straight before spouting off your peurile, unsubstantiated and inflammatory invective.

I do NOT work for SWA. Nor does any member of my family.

[Anonymous]

Good. Blatant nonsense????? Keep taking pictures of the pretty trains.....foamer.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken

Whatever

So you just don't listen, when a valid argument is placed forth, you just ignore it, so I won’t bother to say anything, though he is pretty much right. Someone told me to stop with the politics, I will, no reason to argue such blatant nonsense.[:D]

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gacuster

As a union member, I must say it is a very good thing for keeping decent wages and benefits and preventing management from running roughshod over the workers. Just look at how hard Wal-Mart fights to keep unions out so they can pay third world wages with no benefits.

Unfortunately, this situation may be in part the result of all the positive union efforts of the past. Each contract renewal, they manage to squeeze out a little better deal from the company, for the membership. That's the good part.

The bad part comes when the company's economic situation goes into reverse. I'm not suggesting that the union should just roll over and take what the company is offering, but this is the source of the impass. The union feels that the company could make a better offer than what they have. They might even be willing to accept a 10% pay cut and a 20% job loss, which is a far cry from Northwest's last best offer.

I'm not at all thrilled with the congress. They seem to think that it's OK to line their pockets with money from lobbyists representing big business. What would happen if businesses could no longer buy a vote in Washington. The little guy might actually get his voice back. By the way, the new bankruptcy law, is a direct result of a push from the credit card companies.

[gacuster]

As a union member, I must say it is a very good thing for keeping decent wages and benefits and preventing management from running roughshod over the workers. Just look at how hard Wal-Mart fights to keep unions out so they can pay third world wages with no benefits.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Well guys, I'm not a company man. I like to take the side of the little guy, but this situation sucks.

Northwest is like a sinking ship, in large part because of rising fuel prices. Even if they get rid of the mechanics, and outsource the work, they may still go bankrupt just like United.

The consessions Northwest wanted were massive, 26% pay cut plus lots of jobs lost. No union in it's right mind can accept an offer where they lose money and flush nearly one third of the rank and file down the toilet. They would rather all go down together, than accept and then draw straws. The mechanics are betting that the airline can't live without them. This is a true test of wills.

OK, so you are on a ship in the middle of the ocean, and it's sinking. What do you do?

By the way, one of my neighbors is a mechanic for Northwest, and my step brother is a pilot.

[Junctionfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Paul Milenkovic

QUOTE:
Scabs are nothing more than corporate lackies to break legal labour action. In most cases, unions are not the ones being unreasonable but the employer trying to cut costs and raise the bottomline by any means necessary.

Scabs are the bottom-feeders of the workforce and should be at all times shunned and ridiculed for the sake of fairness of a decent wage that covers the cost of living based on the amount of training and type of job that person is doing.

My grandpa was a union carpenter so I am familiar with the positions of labor advocates on these issues. He was an anti-Nazi pro-Socialist in his native Hungary and later Yugoslavia (and now Serbia), and he saw being a Democrat and a union member in Chicago to where he emigrated as a natural fit, but he had seen a lot, both in Chicago and in the old country, and he had some cynical views about unions and whether they were really helping the little guy.

Scabmechanics -- I like to pronounce that as one word, and that has a scary feel, especially when I have my wife out on a trip on Northwest (when you travel on business you often have to go where you are told and you don't get to honor union picket lines) and Northwest is experiencing mechanical delays out the wazoo right now.

Terrible people these scabmechanics. Suppose these scabmechanics keep Northwest out of Chapter 11 and help other union people keep their pensions, or suppose they keep Northwest out of liquidation so, I don't know, Southwest doesn't take over their routes, where Southwest has an entirely different "labor agreements" (don't know if they are even union). I suppose that makes the whole of Southwests's labor force scabpilots, scabattendents, and scabmechanics as well.

I empathize with the Northwest mechanics because Northwest wants to chop their pay by a quarter and chop the number of mechanics in half. This is not some whiny bunch of guys wanting "more" -- bigger pay raise -- these guys are trying to hang on to their life. But on the other hand, Northwest is not some big corporation raking in big profits that they are not sharing with their workers -- they are about to go broke.

Fundamentally, a union is a kind of economic monopoly. We think that monopoly is bad, but some kinds of monopolies (like power companies and not duplicating the power lines going to your house) are good, and a union as a labor monopoly can serve a social purpose if it allows workers to make living wages and allows a company to have a qualified, skilled workforce. But like any monopoly, a union can charge more for its services (the labor of its members) than in free-competition, but they cannot charge more than the market can support.

Come to think of it, by the calculus of crossing picket lines, Northwest now has scabmechanics, scabpilots, scabattendents, and scab everyone right now, most of them dues-paying union members.

In cases of near bankrupcy, unions will recommend to their members to negotiate for a settlement in the interest of self-preservation. This has happened in a few companies such as Stelco Steel in Hamilton, Ontario. As far as I know the unions and management negotiated a revision of contracts with approval of the union members in order to maintain job security.

[Anonymous]

Whatever

[Paul Milenkovic]

QUOTE:
Clinton lied and he was tried..........Bush lied and men died.........Nuff said!
George W. Bush-a wholly owned subsidiary of Halliburton.

Clinton may have lied and got called on the carpet, Bush may have lied and gotten away with it, and yes many men (and many women) have died, defending our freedom by fighting in a far-off land. If there is one thing that Clinton and Bush were in agreement on was the threat Saddam's continued violation and defiance of the Gulf War cease-fire agreement and related U.N. resolutions posed to our security here at home.

If someone brings up the WMD thing, my analogy is that Saddam's Iraq was on "parole" (the armistice and related U.N. resolutions), and we busted his door down because we though he had a stash of drugs, and we didn't find any drugs because he either had time to flu***hem down the toilet or he was going around letting people think he had drugs to make people think he was a player. We didn't find any drugs, but we "violated him on his parole" anyway. There are a lot of other tough guys in the neighborhood, but we don't have any parole violations on them but we are keeping a real careful eye. One guy decided it was better to come clean (Qadaffi), so that case is being resolved by diplomatic means. From the example of Libya, you also know what coming clean looks like compared to what Saddam was doing (i.e. shooting at our planes).

And if we are talking unions, one thing that American unions have been famous for has been their anti-Communism during the heyday of the Cold War and their America First stand for any disputes outside their borders.

If the unions have become knee-jerk anti-Republican, and anti-George Bush, I guess that is their right, and I suppose Mr. Bush expected too much to support steel tariffs to help his corporate buddies along with their union workers and to expect and recognition from union people on this. And yes, there are legitimate reasons to criticize the war effort in Iraq or even the fact that we went in to Iraq. But if to support unions means you are anti-America doing anything overseas to protect our security at home, it is a sad, sad day and a repudiation of unions who supported the fight in WW-II, in the Cold War, and yes, even in Viet Nam.

I know I am far, far off topic, and I respect people who oppose the war in Iraq because the decision to fight in Iraq and the decision to keep fighting in Iraq is a real hard call in terms of our national interest, but glib statements of "Bush lied, people died" don't represent a sentiment that everyone agrees on around here.

As to George Bush, union villian, you haven't given the guy even half a chance -- he hasn't intervened in the Northwest strike as it is his presidential power to do so (I believe Harry Truman was given that power and used it too on a railroad strike and caught a lot of heck for it as well). And if he does intervene, it may give a way for the mechanics union and Northwest to back off from their collision course and save face and negotiate something that may help both parties.

[Anonymous]

Lotus, have you ever belonged to a Union? Look at Arizona.....right to work state. Very non-union. Now look at the wages there. Very low! Unions raise the prevailing wage for a given area. Even non union jobs wages will follow suit. In Az it is either minimum wage or or you are wealthy. That is it.
Clinton lied and he was tried..........Bush lied and men died.........Nuff said!
George W. Bush-a wholly owned subsidiary of Halliburton.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

Scabs are nothing more than corporate lackies to break legal labour action. In most cases, unions are not the ones being unreasonable but the employer trying to cut costs and raise the bottomline by any means necessary.

Scabs are the bottom-feeders of the workforce and should be at all times shunned and ridiculed for the sake of fairness of a decent wage that covers the cost of living based on the amount of training and type of job that person is doing.

AMEN, BRO....AMEN!

[Paul Milenkovic]

QUOTE:
Scabs are nothing more than corporate lackies to break legal labour action. In most cases, unions are not the ones being unreasonable but the employer trying to cut costs and raise the bottomline by any means necessary.

Scabs are the bottom-feeders of the workforce and should be at all times shunned and ridiculed for the sake of fairness of a decent wage that covers the cost of living based on the amount of training and type of job that person is doing.

My grandpa was a union carpenter so I am familiar with the positions of labor advocates on these issues. He was an anti-Nazi pro-Socialist in his native Hungary and later Yugoslavia (and now Serbia), and he saw being a Democrat and a union member in Chicago to where he emigrated as a natural fit, but he had seen a lot, both in Chicago and in the old country, and he had some cynical views about unions and whether they were really helping the little guy.

Scabmechanics -- I like to pronounce that as one word, and that has a scary feel, especially when I have my wife out on a trip on Northwest (when you travel on business you often have to go where you are told and you don't get to honor union picket lines) and Northwest is experiencing mechanical delays out the wazoo right now.

Terrible people these scabmechanics. Suppose these scabmechanics keep Northwest out of Chapter 11 and help other union people keep their pensions, or suppose they keep Northwest out of liquidation so, I don't know, Southwest doesn't take over their routes, where Southwest has an entirely different "labor agreements" (don't know if they are even union). I suppose that makes the whole of Southwests's labor force scabpilots, scabattendents, and scabmechanics as well.

I empathize with the Northwest mechanics because Northwest wants to chop their pay by a quarter and chop the number of mechanics in half. This is not some whiny bunch of guys wanting "more" -- bigger pay raise -- these guys are trying to hang on to their life. But on the other hand, Northwest is not some big corporation raking in big profits that they are not sharing with their workers -- they are about to go broke.

Fundamentally, a union is a kind of economic monopoly. We think that monopoly is bad, but some kinds of monopolies (like power companies and not duplicating the power lines going to your house) are good, and a union as a labor monopoly can serve a social purpose if it allows workers to make living wages and allows a company to have a qualified, skilled workforce. But like any monopoly, a union can charge more for its services (the labor of its members) than in free-competition, but they cannot charge more than the market can support.

Come to think of it, by the calculus of crossing picket lines, Northwest now has scabmechanics, scabpilots, scabattendents, and scab everyone right now, most of them dues-paying union members.

[Modelcar]

...It's not all one sided....and how does one solve the age old problem....As stated above, one gets a raise and then the other raises prices, etc, etc......

[Anonymous]

The AMFA website has a chart of Northwest's final offer as well as the current contract terms for United (post bankruptcy).

Google Airline Mechanics Fraternal Association and then go the strike page.

[Anonymous]

It's a catch-22 situation. [:(]

[Junctionfan]

Scabs are nothing more than corporate lackies to break legal labour action. In most cases, unions are not the ones being unreasonable but the employer trying to cut costs and raise the bottomline by any means necessary.

Scabs are the bottom-feeders of the workforce and should be at all times shunned and ridiculed for the sake of fairness of a decent wage that covers the cost of living based on the amount of training and type of job that person is doing.

[broncoman]

Does anyone know what the mechanics make and what are their benefits roughly?

[Big_Boy_4005]

Well guys, living in the home of Northwest, this is part of the daily news here, and has been for months. It is a tough situation for both sides. The company has taken a very hard line, and if successful will bust the union. The question is can they keep enough planes in the air long enough to starve the union out. They have brought in replacement workers, of doubious skill and training to try to keep the planes patched together. Reports are that the FAA has inspectors watching closely.

A few years ago, Northwest pilots saw the writing on the wall, and took some serious lumps at the bargaining table to keep the airline alive. Now they are less sympathetic to the mechanics, because they've been there and done that. The flight attendants are in a real jam, because their contract is up next. Some are even walking the lines with the mechanics in their spare time, in a show of support.

It all boils down to how long can Northwest fly without major delays or cancellations. A month may bust the union, because a large number of the members may not be able to go much longer without a paycheck, and the union has no reserve fund to pay out while on strike.

Lotus, give the political a rest.

[tree68]

[2c] Unions serve an important function in protecting workers from abuse by employers. That's one of the chief reasons unions came into being as we know them today. It's an admirable cause, unfortunately sometimes still justified.

The flip side probably started with one Eugene Debs, whose motto was "More." Based on the comment above about wages, I'd say that the problem continues. While I can't fault anyone for wanting to improve their standard of living, any raise is part of a vicious cycle. My wage goes up, so the price of the product I produce goes up. You need more money to buy my product, so you want a raise. That means the price of your product goes up, etc, etc. Any union that simply wants "more" is contributing to the problem, not the solution.

[broncoman]

I would think that as a passenger I would think twice about flying on an airline where the inspections and preventive maintenances are being done by "scabs". I guess people don't realize or even think about what those mechanics do just in day to day life. Being a union member I think that the unions haven't evolved for the changing times. It would be just as easy for a lawyer to hash out a contract as a union, and they would only take their fee once, and I wouldn't have to worry about my dues going to support a candidate that I don't support.
[2c]

[coborn35]

My uncle is or.. was a mechanic for Northwest for 20 years. He does not expect to get his job back. You would be shocked at the things Northwest did.