Dispatching?

[jeffhergert]

BaltACD

 

 

 

Tha ABSOLUTE LAST THING you want to hear a Train Dispatcher utter "What do you mean you don't fit!"

 

Tonight we put fitting into a siding to the test.  Coming into our away from home terminal, instead of going down to the depot the dispatcher wanted us to go into the siding and change out there. We were 8200 feet long and, from experience, there's 8600 feet in the siding between the signals.  

Even though I new we would fit, PTC makes it hard to get in the clear when clearance is tight.  I was down to 1 mph trying to get in.  I hit my counter when we entered the siding, but as it turned out it was off.  I buzzed up the dispatcher to ask him to let me know when his screen showed us clear.  He said we had just cleared.  The counter showed we had gone a bit over 7500 feet when we got stopped.

Jeff 

[tree68]

BaltACD

edblysard & mookie were not husband and wife.  Ed was a trainman in Houston.  mookie was railfan from middle America.  Both are missed.

Indeed.  Both are definitely missed.  As I recall, though, Mookie's husband was named Ed, too.

[MP173]

There are a number of online webcam and most of those will have corresponding scanners.  It is very interesting as a railfan to watch these webcams and also listen in to the interaction between crews, dispatchers, and MOW crews.  Also the defect detectors will chirp in info also.  

Very good entertainment.

ed

[BaltACD]

croteaudd

tnagle192034:

 

This thread is from over 20 years ago and seeing it brough back vivid memories of old posters, such as Anonymous, the late edbysard and his late wife Mookie!

 

Concerning an interesting tidbit that I personally saw as a kid probably 60-65 years ago in Colton, Calif., reference your inquiry, tnagle192034, was a very wide move, obviously arranged by towermen (3) and dispatchers (2).  There were two main tracks, six track altogether.  A gigantic cylinder was on Main 2, and it was moved onto a well-used sidetrack that had manual crossovers on each side of the main street in town.  Another train came on Main 1, and passed without incident.  Then the big cylinder was moved back onto Main 2, and its train took off!  Imagine how exciting that all was for a young kid!  Your post inquiry triggered that memory.  Hope you found it as exciting as I did decades ago!

edblysard & mookie were not husband and wife.  Ed was a trainman in Houston.  mookie was railfan from middle America.  Both are missed.

Clearance moves have specific 'wires' that govern their movement across the railroad from the shipments origin to its destination.  That wire and its restrictions are required reading for everyone, train crew, yard personnel and Train Dispatchers that are involved in the movement.  The higher and wider, the more restrictions the shipment will have.  Those restrictions will include what specific track the shipment must occupy at specific location because of fixed geographical objects or man made obstructions.  There may be restrictions where a train carrying the restricted car(s) CANNOT pass another train.  There may be restrictions where trains with the restricted car(s) can pass trains without restricted cars but one train must be stopped and the other train can only pass at 10 MPH.

A number of years ago, CSX took delivery of a trainload of wind generation blades and nacells - that had myriad of restrictions over all the routes from Baltimore to New Castle, PA (end of my territory) a distance of approximately 300 rail miles and four non-InterDivisional crew districts.  As I recollect it took three weeks to get the trainload shipment from origin to off the division at New Castle and moving toward its ultimate destination, which I believe was interline through Chicago.  I believe after charting my way through the restrictions there were about 50 miles where the shipment could move 'without restrictions' - the single track miles between sidings on the Old Main Line subdivision between Baltimore and Point of Rocks.  It too two or more crews to get the train across each of the crew districts.  Needless to say, this ended up being a one time shipment.  The train was too heavily restricted to be able to move it with all the other traffic that was competiting for track time.

[croteaudd]

tnagle192034:

 

This thread is from over 20 years ago and seeing it brough back vivid memories of old posters, such as Anonymous, the late edbysard and his late wife Mookie!

 

Concerning an interesting tidbit that I personally saw as a kid probably 60-65 years ago in Colton, Calif., reference your inquiry, tnagle192034, was a very wide move, obviously arranged by towermen (3) and dispatchers (2).  There were two main tracks, six track altogether.  A gigantic cylinder was on Main 2, and it was moved onto a well-used sidetrack that had manual crossovers on each side of the main street in town.  Another train came on Main 1, and passed without incident.  Then the big cylinder was moved back onto Main 2, and its train took off!  Imagine how exciting that all was for a young kid!  Your post inquiry triggered that memory.  Hope you found it as exciting as I did decades ago!

[BaltACD]

CSSHEGEWISCH

I'm not sure of the current practice but I have some older ETT's that list siding length by number of 40-foot cars.

Car Length measurement was common in the days before computer generated Train Documentation.  Back in those days there was no 'easy' way to determine the length of each car and there were fewer car types and lengths.

My Father and I both worked the same yard in Baltimore - 30-40 years apart.  He would regale me with stories of all the room the yard had to handle its traffic load - the era of 36 foot, 40 foot and the rare 50 foot cars.  When I worked the yard the predominate cars were 89 foot auto racks and high cube box cars intermixed with 60 foot boxes and 53 foot gons - rare was a 40 or 50 foot car; needless to say my perception of the yard was the it was band box small and had too much traffic for its track space.

Siding length specified in Employee Timetables is 'measured' between Clearance Points.  When push comes to shove - it is possible get a little extra 'length' by bunching the slack and using all the track space between the signals that govern the siding.

Tha ABSOLUTE LAST THING you want to hear a Train Dispatcher utter "What do you mean you don't fit!"

[jeffhergert]

I think by 1980 almost all ETTs, and still today, give siding capacity in feet. Some at one time gave both car and footage capacity. 

I recall seeing one in later years stated the car capacity was in 50 ft car length.

Jeff

[BaltACD]

tnagle192034

Thank you so much for all of that information it will be very helpful! I was wondering one thing. what format is the length in? feet? amount of cars? 

CSX state length in FEET.  The length of each car is calculated from the length field in the UMLER (Universal Machine Language Equipment Register) that cars in Interchage Service MUST be registered and most of a carriers non-interchange cars are also registered.  There are a number of Car Service Rules the carriers must comply with about which cars can be Interchanged between carriers without restrictions.

In addition to the train length displayed on the Train Documents for a train, some Defect Detectors will announce a train length over the road radio channel along with the Defect Report for the train, Defect Detectors will also announce the number of axles that were inspected for the train  - a number which should agree with the axle count on the Train Documents.  Length announced by Defect Detectors can be at varience from the length shown on the Train Documents depending on whether the slack is bunched or stretched when passing over the Defect Detector.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

I'm not sure of the current practice but I have some older ETT's that list siding length by number of 40-foot cars.

[tnagle192034]

Thank you so much for all of that information it will be very helpful! I was wondering one thing. what format is the length in? feet? amount of cars? 

[rdamon]

Wow ..  20 Year thread resurection

I miss Ed around here.

[BaltACD]

tnagle192034

Hi! I had a few questions about what exactly the dispatchers do. So do the trains have to send them information about what is in the train, what company, and stuff? if so would it be a difficult task to add things to this checklist for them to see before they allow a train to depart? such as what is the length of the train. I was wondering just how much they know about the trains. do they know much more than the company and train ID?  

any answers would be helpful thank you!!

Railroads have multiple interlocking data systems to facilitate their operation as a transportation company that move customers freight from origin plant to destination plant.  Every car has its own identity - Car Initial and Car Number.  Car Initials that end in X are private (non-railroad) owned cars.  Data systems keep track of the thousands of cars that a carrier has on its line at any time.  Yard personnel get 'work orders' for the actions crews need to take placing, pulling and/or respotting cars within each industry.  Yard crews may service one or more customers and bring the results of their work back into the 'serving yard'.  At the serving yard, personnel will then have other yard crews organize the results of the 'Industry' crews and form trains/blocks of cars based upon the destination/consignee of the cars.  When track(s) of car(s) have been assembled for movement they are 'booked' into the carriers 'Car & Train Computer System'.  Yard Supervision communicates with Division Supervision that they have a train to run for a specific scheduled train, extra section of a scheduled train or a extra train.  The computer, when queried, will then provide all the necessary information about the train - Loads, Empties, Tonnage, Length, Clearance Restrictions, HAZMAT.  Supervision will then apply locomotives to the train, normally with sufficient hauling capacity to move the train to its final desination over all the grades between Origin and Destination.

Once the train has been built, schedule assigned, power applied it will be 'consisted' into the computer system and all appropriate information will be sent from the 'Car & Train' computer system to the 'Computer Aided Dispatching System' (CADS).  The Train Dispatcher manipulates CADS for all the trains operating over his territory - be that signaled or dark territory.  CADS (at least CSX CADS) communicate a number of things with just how the Train ID gets displayed on the Dispatcher's model board computer screen. The lead alphabetic letter Identifier; P=passenger, M=merchandise, C=coal, G=grain, L=local and a number of other designators.  The next three digits are the schedule number, the following two digits are the day date from origin.  In the CSX CADS the date digits can be displayed in an array of different colors to signify different conditions - Clearance, HAZMAT and others.

Every train operating on a CADS territory has its own 'Train Sheet' a computer data packet that has Train ID, Crew Names, Engines by number, Loads, Empties, Tonnage, Length, Clearance details, HAZMAT details.  Train sheet data is available to the Train Dispatcher with a mouse click any time he may want information about any individual train.

With scheduled movement between carriers they exchange data between each other on a train by train basis in both directions - both passenger and freight.

[tree68]

Information on consists is pretty much all automated now.  The dispatcher will need to know about any special handling (ie, high/wide, possibly hazmat) but beyond that, he/she doesn't care.

What the dispatcher does need to know is the length of the train and whether it can make it over the road.  The power desk will presumably assign enough power to accomplish that.

One could think of the dispatcher's duties as a sort of game - arranging the traffic so it moves in the most efficient manner possible.  The variables are many.  Events can lead to congestion, which ties up a lot.  Some trains have priority over others (contracts, etc) so will get priority handling, while others languish in sidings or never leave a terminal.

The dispatcher's computer aided dispatch system (CAD) helps by double checking for conflicting movements and the like.  

There's much more to it, but there's a start.

[tnagle192034]

Hi! I had a few questions about what exactly the dispatchers do. So do the trains have to send them information about what is in the train, what company, and stuff? if so would it be a difficult task to add things to this checklist for them to see before they allow a train to depart? such as what is the length of the train. I was wondering just how much they know about the trains. do they know much more than the company and train ID? 

 

any answers would be helpful thank you!!

[edblysard]

Tim, to add to gdc post about time, currently on the port, our watch is allowed a 30 second variance, we have a function in our computer data base that is supposed to be tied into the national observatory's atomic clock. Our watches have to have arabic numerals, with military time on an inner or outer rim of the face. We dont have the old watch cards, and we are allowed to carry pocket watches, as long as they meet the above requirements, and we are tested about once a month. Any officer here can request to see your watch, and if it isnt correct, you are subject to be removed from service. I wear a Sharp Quartz with military time in red numbers inside the arabic number ring. I also carry a old Ingersol "Yankee" pocket watch my dad got from his dad when gramps immigrated to the US. He bought it for a $1.50 in 1915. Its back pops off, and inside the label states to send it to ingerson and son, NY.NY along with a dime for adjustment. It states it is rr approved. It was appraised for $499.00 at a collectors shop a year ago. Have yet to get a good answer why a rr that works under rtc, with a top speed limit of 20mph, restricted speed, needs watches that accurate, but I just work here...I dont know if class 1s still schedule meets by time. But still, having a good timepiece helps.
Stay Frosty.
Ed

[Anonymous]

Tim,
#1. I assume you mean track time. Track time is really a self explanatory term. It means the time you as a train, mofw gang, hi-rail or whatever has on a stretch of track. Is that what you mean?
#2. By a master clock, there is a clock for each time zone governed by that dispatch center and dispatchers go by local time. Sometimes, in areas near time zone changes, one area may be in the dispatch time zone and the community in another. This is covered by timetable rule.
#3. Train crew still must have a watch calibrated to the local time. The rules have changed over the years from "railroad approved" to "reliable" watches. When I first started, we were required to have a pocket watch that was not stem set. Usually these were Hamilton or Waltham and they said "railroad approved". They had white faces with black numbers with not only the five-minute numerals, but also minute listed. They were in white or yellow gold cases. Today, a genuine railroad Hamilton in good condition will sell in excess of $600. I have my grandfather's Hamilton. There was even a railroad jeweler whose job it was to maintain the watches in good working order. If I remember correctly, there was an allowable variance of less than a minute, but I don't remember the time period. From there we went to wrist watches, the battery powered with only a few makers of "railroad approved". From there, more watch makers joined the market. My current watch a battery Seiko showing as "railroad approved". Incidently, myh grandfather's Hamilton runs as well as the Seiko. We were all required to purchase and maintain our own watches at the railroad jeweler.
#4. What you know now as Easter, Central, Mountain and Pacific time zones were created by the railroads as a standard for calculating train meets and scheduling. Before that was established, time was a hodge-podge of different times, sometimes earlier, sometimes later than the neighboring community. This was tremendously confusing and led to calamities.
I think all you questions are covered. Let's see what the others say.
Regards and have a safe day. gdc

[Anonymous]

Thank you Gentlemen, you all have been most helpful! My next question to you guy's is TIME! What does track and time mean? Is there a master clock at dispatch that everyone goes by? Are engineers and conductors still required to have a calibrated time piece with them? Is there such a thing as railroad time? What happens when your dispatch is in Florida and your train is in Chicago, is there not a hour different's?
TIM A

[cabforward]

if i read your letter aloud, i would pass out.. there is only 1 period in your comments, at the end.. next time, could you toss in some periods, commas, maybe an ellipsis (...), so i can tell where one thought ends and another begins? not seeing any place to stop, it reads like a runaway..

[Anonymous]

At a great many such crossings at grade, the junior railroad must pay for the maintenance of an "Automatic Interlocker". The senior road then maintains it. Commonly, neither dispatcher has any control as the automatic interlocker grants the route to the first train to activate an approach track circuit - sort of first come fisrt serve. Sometimes electric controls are arranged so that a dispatcher on the senior road can override this - but usually not.

At such crossings where the dispatcher is not in control, there is usually an override mechanism of some sort available to the train crews just in case an approach gets stuck or a train is switching on the approach but not intending to cross. When activated the original route is cancelled, and after a several minute safety time out - a new route is automatically set up for the other railroad. hope that helps

RmC

[Anonymous]

That is defined by an agreement between the two roads. It is usually based on which railroad was there first, i.e. the road at that location first controls the crossing. Since most railroad were built many years ago the establishment of who controls an interlocker can go back decades. As for day to day operation, train classes tend to dictate right-of-way to the controlling road. In other words, if the controlling road were NS and an Amtrak train approached on CSXT, the Amtrak train would have priority over any NS train of lesser class. When two trains of the same class approach, it's up to the dispatcher to make the best move depending on conditions.
Regards, and have a safe day. gdc

[Anonymous]

What if tracks owned by two different railroads cross each other. One track is dispatched by NS and the other dispatched by CSX. Which dispatcher has the right of way when two trains meet at the same time? Who controls the signals at the crossing do both dispatchers have control?

[Anonymous]

Hi group My name is Rodney i work for the BNSF as a conductor on some of my trips I have had on the road there were some dispatchers learning the route even some of the older dispatchers ride the routes as they which are in Fort Worth and Kansas City do not realy know the layout of the route the older dispatchers told us the crew that dispatching is more art than science being they are talking with the terminal some of them keep the train crew in the dark not letting them know if they are going to get held until the last moment while others tell us so we have a head up as to what is going on we have some dispatchers that realy get unwound when AMTRAK is in the mix and the track is single track CTC them they come on and say everyone in the siding and we most often set for 2 or more hours as for the math question throw it out they do not concern themselves with that it all revolves around the priority of the train. Rodney

[Anonymous]

Tim,
With all due respect, I really need to be a little guarded here. Payroll data is a personal issue and to reveal too much about it's workings would approach my ethical boundaries. I don't think I'd want may salary to be dissected in a public forum. Also, it is a matter of contract provision between the crafts and management. In the limited information previously listed, the effort was to emphasize the complexity of all payroll systems.
Now, all that said, let me try to answer some of your questions. Crew calling and transport is a function of a separate department called, believe it or not, Crew Call. This is a centralized office facility that keeps up with crews system wide. Generally, they arrange for crew taxis, deadhead trips, etc. and provide information for taxi invoice verification. Using a number code, each trip is recorded and that code must show correctly on the taxi invoice before it is approved for payment.
Who has track time is not a matter of a power struggle. Maintenance of Way and Transportation each have a job to do and it's the dispatchers who coordinate this sharing. If the division engineer needs track time to replace crossties, he will get it as much as the schedule can accomodate. In high traffic areas, track time may be very limited, in which case, schedules can be rearranged or the job will take much longer than if he had no traffic with which to contend. I'm recalling one location where we were replacing a drawbridge amid a long trestle. The draw was to be completely replaced. The span was constructed in Japan, shipped to the U.S., assembled at a location about a mile from the bridge. The site was prepared and the new span floated in. The old span was removed and the new one installed and open within 12 hours, all in daylight hours. As there was no detour route available, trains were scheduled around construction and given the opposite 12-hour window for that day. This is an example of how the division engineer, the Mechanical Department and the Transportation Department of a division work together.
Finally, yes, dispatchers are aware of on-duty time.
I hope this answers some of your questions. Regards and have a safe day. gdc

[wabash1]

there will be others that will disagree but maintance of way has more power. reason if they cant get time to go inspect track they will shut the line down. they will call the cheif and tell them the main is out of service. it dont take long for them to get their track time.

crews do their own time cards as it is the law. the dispatcher makes reports and keeps track of the trains he delays. so he can cover his own self.

[Anonymous]

Does dispatch keep track of the train crews hours for pay purpose's? Do dispatchers fill out the crews time cards? Is there a display on the dispatchers panel that lets them know when a crew would be at there limit? Do dispatchers keep a log of all the trains that they move through there area? Is the dispatch responcible for calling out crews and providing them transportation? Who is more powerful, dispatch or Maintance of Way peaple?
TIM A

[Anonymous]

Tim, crews can be switched from one train to another, but they would get another day's pay for whatever service they were changed to. As an example, a work train is sitting in a siding and is not expected to move because of maintenance of way delay such as a critical track machine broken down. The work train crew has been on duty four hours. Now consider a through freight is approaching with only one hour left before the hours of service catches them and they are about two hours from their terminal. It is permissable to stop that train and restart the work train crew in order to relieve the through train crew. It was always my experience that this was not something of which to make a habit. The work train would have to stay put until another crew could be found for it. If the work train crew had not been there, the through freight would have to stop at the end of 12 hours on duty to be relieved. This would have meant transporting a new crew to that location, usually by contract taxi. I think we've been this route before. On NS, there is a localized paycode that allows a crew that is relieved on the line of road because of the hours of service to remain at an overtime rate until the relieving crew reaches the yard limits of the terminal. Not a bad deal! They could be home sleeping, watching tv or whatever at OT rates. Fortunatley this paycode only applies to one district and only to a few employees. Ahhhh, T&E payroll, now there's a system to test your sanity! Regards and have a safe day, gdc

[Anonymous]

Why would dispatch switch a crew from one train to another? Is that legal? Both crews were sitting in a siding at different locations why would dispatch call a cab and switch crews? I thought once you were assigned a train you stayed with it?
TIM A
Sorry about the late responce, was away on bussiness.

[wabash1]

tim to maybe simplify things alittle more ill start witht he last thing first. When will the dispatcher know its ready to leave the yard master will order the train. when the crew is called a copy of the crew call sheet is sent by printer to the originating office to the next crew change point and to the dispatcher. dispatcher on our part of the road will order crews when the trains get to certain area and depending on meets and possible work to be done. in abs where we run dispatcher only has a idea where you are by listening to the signals we call or the detectors that are going off. other wise they do what is called "os" in short asking where we are.

as far as are train going onto another division the 2 dispatcher will talk about when we will meeet and where. As far as going onto another railroad all we need to do is contact that road disp by radio and if he can he will run us. we dont need anything special like taking test to run on the other roads. on my lic it says all roads i am lic to run on.

Now the tricky one who goes first and where will we meet. what gdc says is true to a point on my road, it may not be totally the train as much as who is on it. if the crew has a reputation of running the wheels off it they will move maybe a little further and maybe only hold up a train with more priority very little. the amount of time a crew has left to work will mean weather a hot itermodal train with 9 hrs sets while a opposing train with 2hrs left to work and is 1 hrs from home goes on in.

and on are railroad its contractual that they will not run a train around another train. in other words i might be on a over tonage under powered mixed freight and have a short stack train behind me and that is where he will stay. couse its first in first out. if you get run around that cost me money.

[edblysard]

In pratice, yes, sorta of. If the train crew was told by their trainmaster, or boss to nurse the car home, then that means the train will have to move slow, in case the leaks gets big enought to set the brakes in emergency. To prevent a traffic jam on his part of the road, the dispatcher had the crew set it out, and get back on the road to keep every train behind them from losing time. In essence, the dispatcher owns their section of the road, and has a duty to keep traffic flowing. He/she can overide just about anyone on just about anything except a safety issue, they cant order you to break a rule, but they sure can order you into a siding, and keep you there while they run a lot of trains past you. POing a dispatcher is not a good thing to do. If the dispatcher had a hot train behind the leaker, imagine him trying to explain to the division superentindent why that intermodel stacker missed the boat because of a leaking air hose on a general frieght? If there had been no trians behind that one, or no trains scheduled to meet the leaker somewhere, then he would most likley not bothered, but meets and passings are timed affairs, and when you dont get to where your suppost to be, when your suppost to, then it can snowball all the way across a division really quickly, and create quite a mess.
In essence, its their railroad, you do what they tell you to.
Ed