Heydays vs. Nowadays

[cbq9911a]

The old Elgin & Belvidere right of way between Union and Huntley, Illinois.

Heyday (ca 1925): Old wooden interurbans bouncing along track with dirt for ballast. No sigals or anything.

Nowadays: Up to 10 trains per hour on good track with ABS and CTC.

[Bob-Fryml]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Bob -Fryml: I don't know wether to drool,or cry. In various posts, I've seen the word "dinkie". What exactly is a dinkie?[%-)]

In greater Chicagoland The Milwaukee Road and North Western boys called 'em "scoots." Across town the Q-guys, I'm told, named 'em "dinkies." To rest of the world they were referred to as simply "commuter trains." Hope that answers your question.

"Q-guys," you ask?

By the letter "Q" I'm referring to the "Crash, Bounce and Quiver," builder and one time operator of the famous triple-track "Aurora Raceway." Today the line is owned by another railroad.

HEYDAYS vs. NOWADAYS, one adventure remains the same: whether riding behind Chicago, Burlington and Quincy, Burlington Northern, or Amtrak power, being on a transcontinental streamliner slammin' through the western suburbs of Chicago along the Aurora Raceway at 60+ mph is the best, most imperial way I know to either approach or depart The Windy City. In fact, between Denver and Chicago it's my favorite segment of the trip!

Cheers! /s/ Bob

[Murphy Siding]

cbq911a: What railroad is that today?

[MP173]

Heydays: mid 1970, Milepost 173, Mattoon - Evansville - Illinois Central line. Two trains daily on 35mph track. An occasional GP 7 or 9 still in IC black, but mainly IC orange/white GP8/10's.

Now: As of last month, very little evidence left of the line. Trees and weeds have overgrown the ROW, tracks long ago pulled.

Heydays 2: Late, 1970's...Valparaiso, In.
GTW - 22 trains day with occasional GP7/9's running long hood forward. Trains would stall on the hill if underpowered. Depot standing
NW - 8 - 10 trains daily, mostly nights. Depot standing
Conrail - double mainline (Chicago - Pittsburgh), 25 + trains daily plus 2 Amtraks. Depot open for Amtrak and standing.

Nowdays:
CN - 30 -35 trains daily. Trains still stall on the hill, usually underpowered UP or BNSF led coal trains. Massive manifest trains, up to 150+cars. Depot still standing and used by maintenance.
NS - 25+ trains daily, many intermodals and some coal. Depot long gone
CFE (Chicago Fort Wayne & Eastern) - single track. One train daily, usually 30 - 40 cars. Depot gone. Trackwork being done!!!

Back in the late 70's towers existed at Porter, Wanatah, Hobart, Kouts, Wellsboro, Willowcreek, plus many more in Lake County.

Today, several towers still exist in Lake County and more plentifully in Chicago. Towers at Calumet and Grassilli in East Chicago still standing and I think are used.

ed

PS Great thread.

[wctransfer]

Twin Cities.

Hay Days
The SOO and the Milwaukee Road were major railroads in the TC's. Then BN and CN&W got a bit of the share too. Then the small railroads MN&S and the Minnesota Transfer railway. Then Change happened. Soo bought the MILW, abondan Shoreham, and used Pigs Eye as the main yard. Bought teh MN&S in 1982. Then the WC , a new railroad ran on CP tracks to the interchange yards for the daily trainsfer.Then the SOO was pronounced dead in the 1990's to 1993(not sure on the date), it was then CP. CN&W was done for in 1995. BN, and the ATSF came together also. The minnesota Transfer was gone long before then, and the new Shortline called Minnesota Commercial began operating. Twin Cities and Western were formed, a railroad called the Minnesota Dakota & Eastern also formed. WC was also bought in 2001. What we have left is CP,BNSF,UP,and a once a day transfer by CN. Oh how times change.

Alec

[Murphy Siding]

Alec: What do you think of the DM&E? Is it seen a lot in the Twin Cities?

[trainfan1221]

Greetings from Northern New Jersey...

Heyday: Erie-Lackawanna main and regular freight traffic as well as passenger trains. Also, a lot more competition with other railroads around. Lots of places to see different carriers and trains.

Nowadays: Around here, NJT and almost no freight. That traffic is all concentrated on one or two lines nd you are lucky if you catch anything. Only thing different is NYS&W if you can catch a train there.

I dont remember much about the older days, mostly start with early Conrail, but even that was interesting.

[wctransfer]

I really like the DM&E a lot. I havent seen it yet, but i know it come to Hoffman yard, so one of these days ill catch em! When i get older, they are on my "hire wishlist" too.

Alec

[Murphy Siding]

Bob-Fryml: Thanks for explaining "dinkies" to me. My mother-in -law one time gave me a birthday card that said : "For your birthday, I was going to get you one of those little dinky bikinis.............but I didn't know what size your little dinkie was!" Now I realize she was talking about Chicago commuter trains. It all makes sense now.

[daveklepper]

I agree with you about the Aurora speedway and many times departed Chicago on a westbound CB&Q, BN, or Amtrak train, going to places in Nebraska, Colorado, Utah, the West Coast, Seeing the towers of Chicago recede behind a triple-track right of way while barreling down the center track and passing bilevel gallery dinkies on both sides and an occasional freight transfer job a thrill it the trainman didn't chase one off the back platform or if you snagged a seat in the DZ or CZ obs.

But equal in my estimation was barreling down the multiple thinning down to double main of the IC from the Lake Front Central Station. For a while you could do in it in real style at the back of the French Quarter decorated parlor observation that handled the first class commuters on the Panama to Carbondale and Champaign-Urbana. If one was only going that far, one had a tough choice between enjoying the view with preztels and a beer in the rear of that car or enjoying the Kings Dinner in the excellent diner. Not really time for both. However, if one was bound for Memphis, Jackson MS, or New Orleans, then one could stay in the parlor lounge obs until sunset and then go in for dinner and then to one's roomette.

Coming back to Chicago one didn't, of course, see the Chicago sky line but did have the privelege of seeing the number of tracks grow.

I suppose no one would object today to anyone's pressing his face to the rear door window of a Superliner coach or sleeper to see the same sights.

On the Waterloo Ceder Falls and Northern, if memory is correct, we did wind along the banks of a river for a while going south to Iowa City.

[Murphy Siding]

daveklepper: In reading a lot of your posts, it appears you have been a railfan for 50+ years? Do you work in the railroad industry?

[daveklepper]

I started subscribing to the Model Railroader at age 14 about 1946 and to TRAINSD about 2 or 3 years later. At MIT for a while I worked part time for the B&M, for Ernie Bloss who was superintendent of diesel locomotives and railcars, then motive power superintendent or Mechanical Superintendent, no doubt the Diesel Victory book will refresh my memory. I had lots of cab rides, of course, and once ran a GP7, either 1567 or 1568, probably the former, on the Portsmouth, N. H. - Sommerville Yard freight, the only time I actually ran a freight train. Summer of 1952 I worked for Bert Hefner and Bob Konsbrook between my Jr. and Sr. years at La Grange and designed the circuits to give the FT's automatic transition as well as a possible improvement for the GP-9 load regulator control, applied as a test on B&M 1567, and refined as part of my MIT Bachelor's Thesis. Because of the real anti-rail atmosphere at MIT, I got redirected to acoustical engineering, and was always a lover of music and wished to improve my early hi-fi set. In the Army I did electronics, electrical, and audio work, and that redirected my professional career away from railroading. But I remained a fan. I ran a streetcar on the Bailey Avfenue Line in the Bronxe while in high school because of a friendly motorman, later was President of the Electric Railroaders Assocation, still a member, and active at the Shore Line Torlley Museum, Branford and East Haven, CT, and for a while at IRM at Union, Illinois. While Pres of ERA I got to run a subway train once. Ran streetcars and related equipment lots of times at the museums. But mostly did lots of other things useful too. As an acoustical engineer, I did the preliminary work for the Pullman cars for the Quincy branch of the Cambridge -Dorchester Tunnel line in Boston, now the Red lIne, did some work for the new Atlantic Avenue Terminal for the LIRR ion Brooklyn, never built, designed the sound system for the West Side Storage Yard of the LIRR west of Penn Station, did a thorough sruvey of station acoustics and sound systems for the Port Authority Trans Hudson, and had an article published (since moveing toJerusalem) "A/V for Public Transit" in Sound and Communications Magazine. As an acoustical consultant with projects in all 48 plus Canada and South Africa, I tried to use trains as much as possible.

[Anonymous]

Real interesting, Dave!

[MP173]

Dave

I have always enjoyed your commentary and input.

What is your favorite railroad memory or memories?

Best passenger train every taken?

ed

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar

Baltimore Heyday.. camden yards.

Nowadays.. Baseball Stadium with a remant of a once mighty B&O Freight house serving as a outfield wall.

It is my understanding that the B&O Museum was actually part of what was known as the Bailey Yard and was on one end of the entire property now used and developed extensively.

I believe there was a shortline on the east side where the children would ride the steam train back in the 50's to the swimming holes. At a specific time late in the day the engineer would blow the whistle two blasts as a signal literally for the kids to board to get home for dinner and bed.

I have not yet been able to subsantiante this story but am digging into it.

B&O Museum was never a part of Bailey's Yard.....The Museum was a part of the Mt.Clare Shop complex. Bailey's Yard was the 'Coach Yard' for the B&O's passenger operations out of Baltimore. During the middle of the night yard engines out of Mt.Clare Yard serviced industires that were located along Pratt Street from the Museum down past what is now Harbor Place and on down to President St. using the B&O's 44 ton GE engines which could handle a maximum of 8 cars from President Street back to Mt.Clare Station. At the same time yard engines from Locust Point yard would work industries down Key Highway down to Pratt Street and then on to President Street. It was and amazing sight at 3 AM to see two yard engines actively switching industires in the middle of Pratt Street.....No yard engines have operated on either Key Highway or Pratt Street since the middle 70's.

[Bob-Fryml]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Bob-Fryml: Thanks for explaining "dinkies" to me. My mother-in -law one time gave me a birthday card that said : "For your birthday, I was going to get you one of those little dinky bikinis.............but I didn't know what size your little dinkie was!" Now I realize she was talking about Chicago commuter trains. It all makes sense now.

Your comments remind me of a humorous incident that happened near Sacramento, Calif. last year. I was addressing a Union Pacific student conductor class in nearby Rocklin and the subject was the advantages of carrying a condensed train list generated by the Automatic Equipment Identification scanner system. I gave each student a sample list and then showed the class how easily a copy, folded the long way, would fit inside a plastic switch list holder.

Now here's the humorous part, but first a little background. In the industry we have an acronym called PICL which stands for "Perpetual Inventory Car Location." As freight cars are switched from track-to-track in the real world, yardmasters and/or conductors likewise move the reporting marks of each freight car from track list to track list by computer. By doing so, the list of freight cars in each track is kept current and accurate. When a railroader says that he is "PICLing a Track," it means that he's electronically moving freight car reporting marks from one list to another. A yardmaster typically will print computer-generated Switch Lists and give them to switchmen prescribing how he wants each unit of work done. In order to keep the lists clean or from getting wet in rainy weather, some switchmen will fold their switch lists neatly and then place them in a plastic switch list holder. The slang term for switch list holder is "PICL Pouch."

During my A.E.I. scanner list presentation I mentioned the term "PICL Pouch," and suddenly the all-male class burst out laughing. Initially I couldn't figure out what was so funny. When I spoke the words "PICL Pouch" a second time, the class once again broke out into laughter. And suddenly it hit me like a ton of bricks, "HEY, I'M IN CALIFORNIA and to a young California male slightly beyond the stage of puberty what else could a 'PICL Pouch' be but a male thong?"

[Anonymous]

I have enjoyed reading this thread lots of good stuff thanks to all.

For the steam hay-days and into the late 1970s I have to read books about those eras because I wasn't born or a railfan yet. So, my hay-days started during 1980 when I discovered railfanning. I took a weeks vacation and hit many of the tourist railroads, dragging the kids and wife along.

We hit the Virginia and Truckee tourist line at Virginia City, NV and with the purchase of an all day ticket got to ride in the cab of Bob Gray's V&T No. 29 a 2-8-0 consolidation. Next was down to the new Nevada State Railroad Museum, then over the hill to Railtown USA at Jamestown, California and of course we hit the Westside & Cherry Valley.

Then on over to Felton, California near Santa Cruz and a ride on the Roaring Camp & Big Trees then up the coast to the California and Western, the "Skunk" train. What fun for dad.

Better days are now or soon to be for the Virginia and Truckee, Nevada State Railroad Museum, Roaring Camp and Big Trees and Railtown USA. Still great, the Skunk. Gone but not forgotten the Westside and Cherry Valley.

These tourist lines led to then current railfanning. A scanner purchase let me listen to the Norden Operator on Southern Pacific's Donner Pass, he controlled tracks one and two from shed 47 to shed 10 as I remember it. We even got to visit Norden and meet one of the fellows that sat in as operator 5 days a week.

Its gone, the Southern Pacific, the Norden operator, track one. The bright side, you can drive down through the snow sheds on track one to the east portal of Tunnel 41 and Shed 47 and still get great photos.

"Wabuska" *** was the agent at Southern Pacific's Fernley, Nevada depot. He had the coffee on and was always good for a "line-up." And with coffee came railroad stories and rumors. Great listening when railroaders stopped in on business. Nowadays, *** has past on, the depot is no longer track side. The bright side, the depot was saved and moved to a Main St address in Fernley.

My neighbor Bobby D was a hogger on the Southern Pacific, he'd remember me and my hobby with Employee Time Tables and other SP items. His wife was instrumental in Saving the Fernley Depot and getting it a caboose.

I got to be friends with Southern Pacific's number 2 hogger out of Sparks, NV - he worked Amtrak's No. 5 and 6. I'd meet him and the crew at Winnemucca, NV's Red Lion Inn for Sunday breakfast sometimes, good stories and rumors. Tom would have me over to his house and share photographs and such. He's past on, and I miss his friendship. Nowadays, there still some fine railroaders to meet like Tom.

Heydays, Wendel and Southern Pacific's Modoc line and the Susanville local. Cab ride territory, the beanery at Wendel where you got to listen to railroad stories and rumors. Did I mention form 19s and Cabooses. Nowadays the cabooses are gone, form 19s are history, the Modoc and Susanville's branch are no more. But the Lakeview branch is a shortline and up and running. And just down the road at Sand Pass the steel wheels still roll on rails of steel.

Yep, lots of stuff and good people are gone. But, I still get a charge out of watching trains roll by my house. And excited when some special new loco gets committed to a photograph. Its still a fine hobby with many wonderful rails working on the railroad!

Jim - Lawton MP 236

[Murphy Siding]

daveklepper: the day you write your autobiography, I want to buy a copy![:D]

Bob -Fryml : Good thing it was an all male class!

[jeffhergert]

QUOTE: Originally posted by blhanel

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

Blhanel. in 1952, age 20, I spent a day covering all the then operating Waterloo Ceder Falls and Northern interurban lines. One trip Waterloo - Ceder Rapids - Waterloo, then Waterloo - Waverly - Waterloo (both on the observation platform of one of the big wood interurban combines) and then the Perly Thomas steel streetcar Waterloo - Ceder Rapids - Waterloo. What of this trackage is still operating? While in Ceder Rapids, we did visit the Crandic passenger station, but no equipment was there and the schedule did not permit a ride in one of the high-speeds. Glad the Crandic is still is business as a freight railroad. Any talk of restoring some kind of passenger service?

Wow! I suspect you probably rode the line that is now the south end of the Iowa Northern, which pretty much follows the Cedar River. That line maybe sees two trains a day currently. Every now and then they have a story on the news here about someone proposing or pushing for passenger service between Iowa City and Cedar Rapids via CRANDIC, but nothing concrete is in the works yet.

nanimo73: you are TEH correct. The direct route into Iowa City has quite a grade from North Liberty into town, so CRANDIC has gained trackage rights on Iowa Southern from the Amanas to the west, and runs its trains down to there via the line you mentioned.

The Crandic bought the MILW branch from Cedar Rapids south to where it used to go under the RI, now IAIS. They aquired it to service the Amana refrigeration factory.
Originally there was no physical connection between the RI and MILW. Rail business from the factory declined. The MILW went down at least once a day to switch, sometimes twice. The Crandic I think, went down daily at first, but soon got to be 3 times a week, then as needed. The Amana plant bought a center cab switcher, then a Alco. Last I knew, and it's been a while, they still had the alco.
Some time in the late '80s they installed a connection between the Crandic and the Iowa Interstate. At first it was just a switch. At that time, mostly coal trains were interchanged. The IAIS came out from Iowa City, pulled by the switch and the Crandic would tie on and head for Cedar Rapids.
The junction is now a wye. with the east leg added a few years ago. I grew up and lived in the Amana's until 1995 and time slips away so exact dates are hard to remember.
I know I had moved out when the Crandic started going to Iowa City via the Amana line and the Iowa Interstate. Last year (?) the Crandic and Iowa Interstate started experimenting with having the IAIS come up to Cedar Rapids instead. I think they still do this, but not sure.
The biggest problem with the original Crandic route to Iowa City was the interchange in Iowa City itself. The Crandic had some sharp curves that caused derailments if loads/empties weren't placed right. Then the IAIS came down a short, steep hill to the interchange, not to mention all the crossings that would need to be cut if both didn't have engines ready when they interchanged.
A friend of mine who worked for the RI, then ended his career on the Crandic told me the MILW offered to sell the entire Cedar Rapids to Ottumwa line. Internal politics in the Crandic/Iowa Electric offices kept this from happening.
Jeff

[daveklepper]

I hope passenger service gets restored some day between Ceder Rapids and Iowa City. Regardles of what RAIL technology is used. Could bge a Bessler steam ral car for all I care or an Edwards gas-electric!.

Murphy siding. My personal email is daveklepper@yahoo. email me your email address and I'll send some stuff for you to download and appreciate your comments and ciriticisms.

[gacuster]

Murphy Siding: Your co-worker who took the Milwaukee ferry across Lake Michigan really "missed the boat." It may be faster, but he didn't smell any coal smoke. The Milwaukee ferry is diesel powered and uses hydroplanes I believe, but can't run in rough weather whereas the SS Badger goes no matter what, and Lake Michigan gets real ugly sometimes. The old carferries were really built to "take it" as they ran year round and had to break ice in the winter. One of the docks in Manitowoc was upriver about 1/2 mile and when the ice got thick in zero weather the ferry would back all the way in so the props could chop up the ice. It was a tricky operation to load the ferries with railcars as they had four tracks that matched up with a wooden dock and the crew had to keep the boat balanced properly. All just memories now.

[blhanel]

Hey Jeff, thanks for giving me more detailed info. One of these days, if I get done with all the "honey do" stuff around here, I'll take my camera down there and get some shots of Crandic/IAIS action- yes, IAIS does handle the work from near ADM down to the Amanas now, I've seen a train or two traversing it lately while heading down to get some of that good German cooking.

Brian

[Murphy Siding]

gacuster: Very interesting. Loading cars and trucks must be a breeze compared to loading train cars!

[gacuster]

Murphy Siding: You got that right. They modified the old dock and boat deck to handle automotive traffic on the Badger. If truckers have an oversize load they take the ferry rather than worry about weight limits and clearances on the highway.

[Murphy Siding]

gacuster: With all the talk of congestion around Chicago, is it conceiveable that the ferry could be converted back to what it was designed for?

[RKFarms]

Heyday 1- Lafayette, IN area. Monon through the plains a little west of our farm, smoky diesels (did not know about 4 cycles and blown turbos then), F's and BL2's and lots of crew on every train. Nickel PLate south of home, junction with Monon was busy. Wabash and NYC through Lafayette, complete with passenger trains.
Now-Amtrak and a few freights past the semaphores on CSX, lots of freight traffic on NS. Other lines gone.
Heyday 2 Peru, Il area late 60''s. RI and burlington through back side of high school campus, passenger trains, double track. Farmer03, remember the Lasalle and Bureau County storing hundreds of boxcars north of Lasalle?

[Murphy Siding]

daveklepper: As luck would have it, I'm not that smart ! I'd have to wake one of my boys up to remind me how to use the e-mail! LOL. My e=mail is tnsvld @yahoo.com. Have you ever had anything published? Honestly, I do enjoy your writing.

[TimChgo9]

Chicago was a great place to be back in the 70's and 80's (when I did most of my growing up, I have yet to get to the rest of it) Back then, a friend of mine and I had a "clubhouse" along the ICG tracks that ran through the area, which is now owned by CN. We had the CNW up at Proviso yard, (Now UP) the Indiana Harbor Belt, which I loved. My dad would take us boys out train watching along there a couple of times. and I still remember seeing a Penn Central freight train one afternoon, along with CNW freights, and a train with an Erie Lackawanna loco on it (this would be about 1975 or so) and I vaguely remember the last vestiges of the CGW, which was a 2 blocks north of my house at the time. The BN another place we used to go, it was about 4 blocks from my grandparent's house. And we used to find ourselves out in Bensenville at the Fireman's Hall at least once a month for a model railroad swap meet, and behind the Fireman's Hall was the Milwaukee Road C&M Subdivision where the trains would enter and leave Bensenville Yard, which is now CP Rail. My dad's uncle lived in New Lenox, and he was not too far from the Rock Island. I still remember the blue and white locos and the big "The Rock" logo on them.

Trains were a big part of our lives growing up, only because dad liked them so much. I confess I like them too, I love shooting photos of them. I remember railroading around here as busy, noisy, and a with plenty of corlorful engines from all kinds of different roads. My personal favorites were the ICG and GM&O units on the Freeport Sub, followed by the BN and then the CNW locos. Elmhurst was always a great place to watch trains, and still is. Joliet Union Station, Tower B12 in Franklin Park, CP LaGrange and any one of the stations along the BN. We loved it all.

I sometimes wi***here was more variety around here. As of late, in my photos, I strive to catch the "uncommon" , in other words, roads that aren't seen around here, like the KCS AC4400 I caught taking a train up the Harbor Belt back in March, or the NS stuff that comes in the BN and the UP. But, it ain't like the old days.

[Murphy Siding]

TimChgo9: I agree with your comment about wishing for more variety. Out here in the sticks, we had to wait for a merger just to see engines that weren't always Cascade Green.[:)]

[Anonymous]

Not trying to intentionally leave someone out, but it is guys like edblysard and daveklepper that make this forum so darn interesting! Their knowledge and experience is very helpful to those who weren't directly connected to the industry.

Now, Murphy Siding has asked me to respond with my interests and etc. here on this post. First, some Heydays/Nowadays info.

Heydays:

I used to live in Council Grove, Kansas where it hosted two railroads; Missouri Pacific and the Missouri Kansas Texas (Katy). The old Katy depot is still there as before. The Missouri Pacific used Council Grove as a crew change point between Osawatame (sp) and Hoisington. My father used to take us to the depot and watch these crew changes and there were several men he knew that worked for the railroad. This was back in the early 50's. The Missouri Pacific depot was demolished long ago.

Approx. 20 west of Council Grove was the town of Herington. Herington was a railroad town for the Rock Island and the Cotton Belt. Both towns saw plenty of mainline traffic being in the farm belt. Living a block away from the M.P. main in Council Grove, I used to watch the Fairmont speeders go by with the signal maintainers and other track workers.
I currently have my own speeder which I have ridden three times; I belong to NARCOA.

Many years later while the Rock Island was still in business, I would go to Herington and photograph train activities. I would drive up to the yard office and ask for permission and the dispatcher would only say, "stay out of the way of the switch engine". Try doing that today.

Nowadays: After moving into Santa Fe dominated territory it wasn't long before the discontinued use of the caboose. Like Council Grove, there were a lot of Santa Fe employees here in town, either in train service or track maintenance or signal forces. I came to know a lot of them.

With the advent of down-sizing of employees in most lines of work, the same took place within the railroads. We saw it happen here with train service as Emporia was no longer a crew change point and passenger service was abolished. The magnificent depot that once was a center piece caught fire, was demolished to rubble, and hauled away.

With the marriage of Burlington Northern/Santa Fe, the rail line traffic flourishes and we see all types of freight passing through; intermodals, roadrailers, unit coal, and mixed freight. Some occassions we have even things like wind generating blade carrying cars and even Ringling Brothers train.

My interest in trains began at an early age like most; at 5 years old I received the proverbial Lionel train set. From Lionel 027 to HO, I was addicted. While in the military I rode several different trains. From 1975 to present, the interest became more addictive as I began collecting train related items, listening in on scanners, and restoring items such as a Fairmont speeder, a former Missouri Pacific 3 aspect signal, and assorted lanterns.

Locomotive names and or paint schemes make it all the more interesting and hearing or reading about the experiences of others makes the hobby more fascinating.

I think I have exceeded the 25 word limit.