Train Diamonds

[nobullchitbids]

I always have heard that, at the base of it all, the "junior" road -- the one there last -- was responsible for installing and maintaining railroad crossings at grade; however, as exemplefied by a couple of posts here, that basic rule clearly was subject to negotiation. If one road somehow were going to benefit by allowing another road to cross it -- e.g. from increased interchange traffic -- then clearly the "basic" rule could be waived in favor of some form of negotiation.

Railroads are private enterprises; their lawyers have the right to negotiate virtually any agreement they want, and for any legal reason. One reason which well might be hidden? Fear that, without a generous agreement for a potential competitor, the former ICC or FTC (or whoever has the power) might start smelling a "monopoly."

Incidentally, the histories of railroads in the west are repleat with examples of how, in the early days, competitors would build tracks expressly for the purpose of blocking the path of a rival. Needless to say, there were no negotiations then, only lawsuits.

Finally, one is more likely to see diamonds in the Midwest than anywhere else, precisely because so many competing lines were obliged to cross at grade. With modern machinery, however, it is a lot easier (and less costly) in the long run to go under or over.

[tree68]

At Plymouth, MI, there is a diamond where CSX crosses..... CSX. Pretty sure the diamond has been under the control of one company (Pere Marquette, then C&O, etc) since it was built.

[fuzzybroken]

The Iowa Interstate (former Rock Island) had a diamond across the BNSF (former BNSF, BN) in the Quad Cities IIRC, that was replaced with a pair of switches. That's a lot less maintenance than a diamond, and while retaining the same purpose, potentially opens up some operating flexibility!

The IAIS, by the way, is an awesome railroad! I'll have to go chase trains on it again some time.

-Mark
www.fuzzyworld3.com

[Anonymous]

Never saw a diamond interlocking? As Horace Greely said "Go West Young Man"
We have so many in & around Chicago that there were 2 books written about them.
If you can find a Train Watchers Guide to Chicago Volumes 1 & 2 you can get your fill on diamonds. In Chicago we have more diamonds than QVC sells in a day.

Until recently we even had one that had hand operated semphore train order signals but is has been( or is in the process of) automated.

[rvos1979]

Crawford, WI (just south of Prarie du Chien) has an unusual diamond where the WSOR crosses the BN. Owing to the infrequent WSOR moves, the BN rails are continous, and the WSOR goes up and over the BN rails. The crossing is protected by electrically locked derails controlled by the LaCrosse dispatcher.

The crossing is a very rough ride, even at the maximum of 10 mph on the WSOR, I think the BN does about 30-40 through here.

Randy

[alstom]

QUOTE: And what about speed restrictions across diamonds???

There are speed restrictions across diamonds. In fact, that's what happened at the Greenwich, Ohio diamond if you read my previous post.

A CSX westbound train hammered the diamonds going above "track speed" and damaged a piece of rail. That is why there are restricted speed limits on diamonds. The manifest had to be going about 65 mph and track speed was 60 mph. But that was still too fast.

Richard

[Chris30]

Rochelle, IL

As mentioned above, the CNW went through Rochelle in 1854. I posted previously that I thought the CNW did not go through until the mid 1860's directly after the Civil War motivated by the UP's transcontinental route from Omaha west. I checked & found out that the Dixon Air Line was built by the Galena & Chicago Union west from Turner Jct (W. Chicago) to Fulton, IL from 1853-1855. The decision to build the Dixon Air Line was motivated by the Rock Island that was built between Chicago and Rock Island in the early 1850's, the IC building a line to Galena & another failed project.

As for the Chicago & Iowa, here's what I found:

[code]http://www.leecountyhistory.com/lee_county/steward.htm[/code] (see the 2nd paragraph)

It doesn't look like the C&I was completed in Rochelle until 1870. It looks like the C&GU (CNW/UP) was the first line through Rochelle.

As a side note, there was a manned tower at Rochelle until the 1960's. The tower was operated by CNW.

CC

[Anonymous]

FWIW, I worked for the GM&O in the late forties and early fifties. The route I worked on was the old Chicago and Alton running from St.Louis to Chicago and one of the earlier railroads in Illinois. But the Wabash was already in Springfield when the C&A got there from the south so their employees manned the tower.

When the C&A got to Joliet, the Rock Island manned the tower because they were there first. The Santa Fe got there third. The C&A maintained their diamonds, and the Santa Fe maintained theirs. (Would you want somebody else messing withe YOUR track? You control the work that way and can charge the junior road according to some previous agreement.)

GM&O employees manned the towers at locations where our railroad was first. Other states might have different procedures. I was told that the payroll was paid by the junior company, but have never seen anything documenting this.

The Santa Fe line to Chicago was on the 'western' side of the GM&O and their yard was on the 'eastern' side of the GM&O so the tower controlled the entry and exit to the Santa Fe yard. I worked Corwith for several months and had 'interesting' conversations with the Santa Fe yardmaster.

Art

[markpierce]

More info on the Flanigan crossing from The Modoc:
"By the time the advancing rails of the Fernley and Lassen (Southern Pacific) reached Flanigan in 1913, the Western Pacific had already arrived, having built their line through this section four years earlier. Being the second railroad on the scene, the Fernley and Lassen was obliged to provide signal protection at the point where the two lines crossed. A manned inter-locking was installed, and a 24-foot control tower was built in the northwest corner of the intersection. An Agency was also established, with the day towerman serving in a dual capacity as agent-towerman. An old boxcar body was set up on blocks alongside the track to serve as a freight warehouse, and local merchants and businessman were given a key to the back door so they could enter to retrieve their LCL fright shipments....
"Apparently the SP did not utilize the services of the agent-towerman at Flanigan as a train order operator; and when such an office was established to serve both railroads during World War I, it was the WP that staffed it. A train order station became necessary at that time in order to provide train orders for the movement of the Westwood Passenger and the Reno Passenger during the period when these trains were routed over the Western Pacific between Reno and Flanigan, The government urged the two railroads to continue this arrangement after the war, but they showed their contempt for the idea promptly by tearing out the short section of track that connected the two lines and returning the train to its former route via Fernley. At some point in time, probably in the late 1920s, the manual interlocking was replaced by an automatic system, eliminating any further need for the towerman.
"....In 1963 the 60.3 mile section of track between Fernley and Flanigan was abandoned after through traffic (on the Modod Line) was routed over the WP..."

[markpierce]

And what about speed restrictions across diamonds??? To quote from page 135 from The Modoc by Bowden & Bill:
"The Modoc Line crossed the main line of the Western Pacific at Flanigan, 22 miles south of Wendel (in the middle of nowhere!). For several years the intersection was protected by a manned interlocking. During the 1920s the manned facility was replaced by an automatic interlocking (don't know how that worked), which remained in service until the WP installed Centralized Traffic Control on their line (while the Modoc remained without), after which the crossing was controlled by the WP dispatcher (the WP track was their mainline, the SP track was a "secondary" mainline). On the morning of May 5, 1954, an eastbound WP freight has just passed over the crossing; a short time later, cab-borward No. 4277 rattles across the diamond on its way to Fernley. The speed sign reveals that after clearing the crossing, WP freights are allowed to make 50 miles per hour, regular passenger trains 60 miles per house, and the streanlined California Zephyr 65 miles per hours.

So..what do you supposed the allowed speed was across the diamond? If I was to guess, I would think it to be around 30 mph. Does anyone have more reliable information?

[alstom]

QUOTE: your lucky your only 13 and have seen one.

Thanks for writing back. I have heard of this "Darby, Pennsylvania" though. At 'www.chessiesystem.com', you can see the model version of Darby.

Anyways, diamonds, now that i've been thinking, are maintained mostly probably by STB, ICC or AAR. The top three should I say "rulers" of the railroads? They are probably the ones always getting the calls if a crossroad or "diamond" is dangerous. The reason I think this is because over in Greenwich, Ohio a week ago, a CSX maintenance worker came out repair the CSX diamonds. On my scanner, I picked up the CSX maintenance worker saying that he received a call from the ICC to verify that he fixed the diamonds before he left. He had to replace a piece of track going bad, that got damaged after a 60 mph manifest hammered over it. The line was closed from 1:30 pm to 2:30 pm.

Richard

[CSXrules4eva]

MIke: I guess I have to get out more because I had no clue out of all these years of being born and rased in Philly that there is a dimond on 6 and Main. Who would of thought that?/// I might have to cheak it out.

alstom: I've been here in Philly of 19 years now and I've been a railfan all my life and haven't see a dimond, your lucky your only 13 and have seen one. [8D]

[CShaveRR]

Not any more, Mr. Cobb...

Four tracks (BNSF/CN) cross only one track (Metra/CSXT) at Joliet these days.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by fuzzybroken

If I had more time (and presence of mind) I would tell the tale of the Midnight Crossing.

Anybody else up to it?

-Mark
www.fuzzyworld3.com

I would like to hear the tale sometime.

[wccobb]

Rochelle, Ill.
Chicago & Galena Union RR built 68 miles, West Chicago to Dixon, Illnois, 1854 (C&NW Steam Power, by C. T. Knudsen)

The CB&Q's entry into Rochelle is a little less distinct. "Steam Locomotives of the Burlington Route", by Corbin & Kerka contains the following: "In the 1880's the growth of the Burlingtron was widespread over the Middle West. ... Among the roads acquired during this period were the Chicago & Iowa, 101 miles long and extending from Aurora west to Forreston and Rockford; ..." This seems to be reflected in the map given on page 17 which indicates that the rails were laid from Aurora to Mt. Morris and to Rockford during the 1870-1880 era. Further clarification will be appreciated.

Wanna look at diamonds? Joilet (Illinois) Union Depot where four tracks cross four tracks and is the end of the line for two METRA lines.

[Anonymous]

Oh, I'll bite. What is (was) the Midnight Crossing?
And would you rather start a separate thread for it?

Allen

[fuzzybroken]

If I had more time (and presence of mind) I would tell the tale of the Midnight Crossing.

Anybody else up to it?

-Mark
www.fuzzyworld3.com

[tree68]

Seems like I've read more than a few accounts of activities at towers where the different shifts were worked by employees of different railroads.

[mikeyuhas]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CSXrules4eva

Some people in here might find this so sad but I'm going to say it anyway. I've never ever seen a dimond in my life. I live in the greater Philadelphia reagion and over here there aren't any dimonds, not any I know of anyway. I guess back in the day when PRR and Reading were at it's penical (spelling) there must of been more dimonds over here. Today there are more abandond lines over here than active ones. Tisk Tisk Tisk..............................

Oh Sarah!

There's a pretty unique crossing in Darby, just down the road from you. It's where CSX's Philadelphia Subdivision crosses SEPTA's Route 11 trolley line, at 6th & Main. If I recall correctly (I haven't lived in Delaware County for over 16 years), it's the only at-grade crossing of a mainline ralroad and an active trolley line in the United States. Put yourself on a Route 11 trolley and go for a ride!

[ahuffman]

One road doesn’t necessarily bear all the expenses. I’ve noted that PRR interlocking diagrams for points where two different railroads crossed typically had a chart setting out the division of expenses on a percentage basis. For example the interlocking at Leetonia, Ohio showed PRR 76.54% and Erie 23.46% for maintenance expenses and 83.4% vs. 16.6% for operating expenses on a diagram dated 1-1-57. It’s worth noting this junction was on the Pennsy mainline to Chicago while it was on the Erie’s Lisbon branch. The diagram also notes that the PRR operated and maintained the interlocking; that is, performed the actual work. I don’t know how the formulas for dividing expenses were arrived at.

[mudchicken]

CShaveRR & Brightlines:

The new crossing scenario is playing out right now at the STB with UP trying to cross BNSF (Old BN/C&S) at Southern Junction/Pueblo, CO....

There is a second rhubarb involving Keokuk Junction RR and BNSF in Western Illinois.
(dispute over access to crossing vs. alternate access practicality, ironically the little guy is the source of the friction here with Pioneer RailCorp getting a little wierd)

The third issue is JoeKoh's favorite between Maumee & Ohio and CSX at Defiance, OH...(existing crossing removed)

In all three cases, STB is the final arbiter of who is responsible for what. And if all possible, nobody wants a crossing frog (diamond to the novice) at all due to the added risk and expense involved.The "who got there first" issue often oversimplifies the responsibilities and obligations involved. If Gabe was not so busy, the contract law issues involved would lead to hours of suggested reading.

[CShaveRR]

Railfan619, you should wander over to Duplainville. I've never been there, but that should be the nearest diamond interlocking to you.

For Dsbrightlines: First of all, welcome!

Second, you really don't have to go back very far for a very good example. Just go out to West Chicago, Illinois, where there is a manned tower at the crossing of the UP and EJ&E. The tower operator is constantly on the radio with the UP dispatcher, on the phone with the UP yard, lining up trains to cross over (or not) from one track to another, or go into the yard, or on or off the Belvidere Sub. He's often busy with the UP's Signal Department to deal with their switches within his plant. He would hear plenty if he were the cause of a delay to Metra's scoots there. But his paycheck comes from EJ&E.

I strongly suspect that if Great Big Railroad A had any thought that upstart Little Railroad B were going to use this crossing to disrupt Railroad A's operations, it would not have granted permission for the crossing in the first place. Yes, permission would have been required. At West Chicago, EJ&E has freights to run, too--I've sat and waited there myself. A good tower operator will minimize the delay for all parties--but I'll bet he's not allowed to tie up the diamonds near the Metra trains' times.

[dsbrightlines]

My question is: Railroad A builds a track through a region. Railroad B decides later that it needs to cross Railroad A in order to get where it needs to go. I understand that Railroad B is responsible for the costs of creating and maintaining the diamond. But who controls it, i.e. who builds and staffs the tower?

It seems to me that Railroad A has a vested interest in being responsible for deciding which Train gets to go through the diamond if there is a conflict. Suppose two trains arrive at the diamond more or less simultaneously. Which Train has priority? Going back to the "I was here first" issue, Railroad A would be fooli***o allow Railroad B to make the decisions about what Train has priority. Any of you history buffs out there have any idea how this was decided in the past?

[Anonymous]

I found out today that the Southern line (NS) came through after the Chicago & Eastern Illinois line was put in at Princeton IN. The C&EI line is now CSX. So according to what some other people have said, NS (Southern) being the second to arrive at Princeton should maintain and own the diamond, however, I found out that CSX is the owner of the diamond. So, this sort of changes the idea that the junior railroad takes care of and owns the diamonds. I heard this from a former Southern (Norfolk Southern) Conductor.

[alstom]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CSXrules4eva

Some people in here might find this so sad but I'm going to say it anyway. I've never ever seen a dimond in my life.

That's not to bad. I didn't see one until I was 11, and i'm 13. They aren't to spectacular because when you are there, all you hear is:
b-boom, b-boom, b-boom, b-boom, b-boom, b-boom, b-boom
...it's almost irritating, but I still love em', anyways i'm getting [#offtopic]!!

The railroad company obviously maintains the diamonds. The city and state as well have some part. But if you mean a diamond that has like CSX and NS, that is complicated to explain.

The railroad owning the rail that is damaged is in charge of maintaining it. I guess that wasn't so hard. That's all I can think. I don't think the state or city comes out to fix it though-----lol!! But anyways, that's it for me, you got me here. But i'm assuming that my answer is correct.

Richard

[Anonymous]

Saw my first active diamond this weekend, in fact. It's in Calera, Alabama, (north of Montgomery and south of Birmingham.) As near as I can tell, CSX owns the right of way. The north south line runs from Montgomery to Birmingham. I don't know where the east west line runs to, although the train museum curators nearby told me that part of it goes to a Vulcan plant nearby. The signals for the east west branch were about a tenth of a mile away from the diamond and set to red.

By the way, the local museum (the Heart of Dixie rail museum) has a nice excusion run... I got a cab ride in a 50 year old ex Army switcher!

Erik

[Chris30]

I'm going to say that the C&I was the first in Rochelle. But I'm not 100% sure. I know that the Chicago & Galena Union (CNW/UP) first built their main line northwest from Turner Jct (West Chicago) towards Rockford. I also know that the original Burlington route went northeast from Aurora to Turner Jct and ended at that interchange before building their own Chicago line. I'm not sure when the C&I was built, but it would have to be before the late 1860's when the CNW built the Dixon Air Line to Clinton, IA.

CC

[Anonymous]

The man has a point. Instead of necessarily the RY that has less traffic, perhaps it is the railroad that got there last. Since many primary routes got built first, and they would tend to carry more freight than the (relative) Johnny-come-latelies, that would give the appearance that it is the junior line, traffic wise, that's responsible for upkeep. Train law being what it is, though, "pride of first place" makes a compelling determinant.

One test: which came first to Rochelle, IL: predecessor (even before the "Q") of BNSF; or CNW?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CSSHEGEWISCH

At any crossing or interlocking, the junior road at the location (whoever got there last) is responsible for maintenance of the track and machinery.

At Fremont,Neb. I would have to say it is the BNSF that has to do the work because the UPRR was there first. The one North of town,No brainer,BNSF. Because the CNW was their first. So that makes the BNSF to be the one to fix it. Correct?
Allan.