124 hours on the schedule-5 days-is a long time, but I suppose if the customer(s) are happy...
I was curious. Mapquest says that an automobile would make the 2785 mile highway trip in 41 hours (that non-stop of course), but that is an average speed of almost 68MPH. Maybe a team on a truck running 20 hours and then 4 hours down each day makes it in about half the rail time. I don't think the train service is going to get anything but the products with longer shelf life-potatoes, carrots, onions, but I guess those are the main product out of that area.
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
jeaton wrote: 124 hours on the schedule-5 days-is a long time, but I suppose if the customer(s) are happy... I was curious. Mapquest says that an automobile would make the 2785 mile highway trip in 41 hours (that non-stop of course), but that is an average speed of almost 68MPH. Maybe a team on a truck running 20 hours and then 4 hours down each day makes it in about half the rail time. I don't think the train service is going to get anything but the products with longer shelf life-potatoes, carrots, onions, but I guess those are the main product out of that area.
Awright here we go.
One truck. One driver. Empty at Seattle Monday Morning 10 AM. Winter of 1998. That driver is me.
From Seattle Washington empty into Yakima is about 5 hours give or take a little bit. To get loaded will probably take a day at Yakima.
From Yakima to Boston is about 4 days in good weather. That means I should be in Boston Friday morning logs and DOT hours be damned.
A team can and will get from .... LA to Avenel New Jersey in about 2 and one half days. Ive done it with the wife co-driving. We can make one complete round trip in less than 7 days. That is about 7000 miles drop and hook. We would cook on the move, eliminate and use chemical toilet on the move and everything else is self sufficient for 4 weeks. Stopping only to get fuel. With 300 gallons we can perform 800 miles in winter and up to 1400 in summer depending on which interstates we take.
Everything has to be perfect with the shippers and recievers ready when we get onto thier property. paperwork and trailer swaps take 30 minutes max. Unload and reload by forklift in 1 hour flat. That is gravy.
I plan my trips at 25 mph average. The trucking company computers plan at 45 mph average. Whadda pipe dream. Late loads and alerts begin to be generated when said trucker is under 35 mph average during a trip. All tracked by satellite in real time.
I average 20-25 mph for the entire trip from the moment I get the orders from dispatch to the moment the reciever stamps "recieved in good condition" on the bills and I can race for the messenger to get my pay.
So a 3000 mile trip at 25 mph average needs 120 hours for everything including load/unload. If the dispatch says you only have 70 hours to do it, immediately tell them "No can do" even though it's been done before. If you are a team of two drivers, go for it. Going to be a hot run! Get going!
Teams I plan average 40 mph. A little bit better but still not much better than one sleepy single.
Trains can swap power and crews and roll 24/7 and beat trucks cross country. But sometimes truckers can and will beat that old train from LA to Boston in under 60 hours flat. But it's something to behold.
Dollar trucks and route planning to hit major areas at night to avoid rush hour and other problems is the key. Dollar truck = one capable of 100+ mph. None of that urban driving or 65 mph split speeds crap.
Now that I managed to scare you with this stuff, I have to say that it is not necessary to be trucking in a enviornment of time or late pressures. To be late on a load will probably cost you your job as the company risks losing that account because the shipper can and will find any number of starving drivers willing to make the run for less. THAT is the great flaw in the trucking.
Railroads. They stop when the crew hogs out on the law with maximum work hours and cannot move one inch more. The trucker who stops when he is dead on the law will probably find himself out of work and a young 90 day wonder put in the cab.
Safety Valve
Thanks for your input. Note that I said "maybe". If I was still in the business of buying freight service for an employer, I would have a better handle on reality. As it is, I am glad I am retired and don't have to put up with some fool that thinks the average running time should equal the speed limit.
I have never been a driver, truck owner or run a truck line, but being around the business, my impression is that the shippers who want to pay the very least also expect the most in service. Same kind of people that treat employees like dirt and then complain that good help can't be found and there is no loyalty. I read of driver shortages, but I wonder. As a highly diversified business-thousands of trucking companies, 10 of thousands of O/O's, there is probably always another person ready to give the business a try. As long as many can't connect price and value, don't plan on any relief soon.
5 days across country for perishables is pitiful by any standard of measurement. My God in the 1940's the ICRR was running 10 and 12 car unit trains of strawberries in wooden sided Railway Express Reefers during the spring season covering the 867 miles from Hammind, LA to Chicago in 16+ hours which rivaled the times of the Panama Limited and City of NO. How did they do it, in a word PRIORITY. They were dispatched as passenger extras behind high stepping 4-6-2's and stopped only for engine and crew changes en route.
This brings me to my simplistic views which too often don't seem to be shared by the railroads today: 1)Provide the service (translate that into transit times) the shipper requires at 2) competetive and compensatory rates and most importantly 3) consistently deliver the promised service. If the railroads can't meet these objectives for a specific commodity or on a specific route then leave that business to another mode of transportation that can. For the best example of this philosophy think for a minute what commodities are and are not hauled by river barge. The traditional $ per ton mile mentality of the railroads just doesn't apply anymore.
Next what is a perishable? For the answer go to the produce section of your local supermarket and look at the items kept on cool display and sprayed with water a couple of times daily. You'll see lettuce, celery, spinach, green peppers, etc. Apples, onions and potatoes aren't in the same category. A good rule of thumb is if the item has to go in the refrigerator when you get it home from the store then it's a perishable. For true perishables it seems to me the target out to be an average 50mph origin to destination transit time. This is attainable (the IC did it regularly 60 years ago) but requires daily and perhaps shorter trains of reefer trailers on flat cars which are given PRIORITY over dang near everything else on the road with virtually no time wasted in yards or on passing tracks. Again, rates have to be compensatory but competetive with OTR trucking. A second class of priority shipments with relatively longer trainsit times should be provided for non-perishable fresh foods.
Simiarily I am of the opinion that the railroads consider all containers as equals irrespective of their contents. Wrong again. A container of high $ electronics from Taiwan is vastly different than a container of Christmas displays from China. Time spent in transit translates into inventory carrying charges. Just as is the case with perishables, here too, fast priority trains should be run to transport the high $ containerized commodities at comensurately higher freight rates that will be offset by the reduction in inventory carrying charges incurred by the shipper or consignee. Low value contanierized shipments don't require the same level of service and probably could be handled in regular manifest trains at a reduced shipping rate.
Perishables cross country in 5 days at an average speed of 23 mph - for shame! Raise the urinals higher and you'll still find a way to reach them.
Mark
KCSfan wrote: Perishables cross country in 5 days at an average speed of 23 mph - for shame! Raise the urinals higher and you'll still find a way to reach them.
Rob Leachman did an interesting analysis of the Milwaukee Road's train #261 [the hotshot westbound freight "XL Special", not the steam engine] 1963-1971 and its schedule times, which it was typically able to beat:
"District Mileage Avg. MPH Avg. MPH(incl. work) (excl. work)Bensenville – Aberdeen 700 42.2 52.2Aberdeen – Harlowton 629 44.7 46.3Harlowton – Avery 438 39.8 43.0Avery – Tide Flats 419 28.2 30.3(Note: "Work" includes time spent in pick-ups, set-outs, re-blocking, 500-mile inspections, power changes, refueling, etc., but does not include any allowance for crew changes.)"
Train average schedule speed overall was 38.7 mph and 43.0 mph, respectively; 39% of the distance was spent on "mountain" railroad territory of a total 2,186 mile run into Tacoma "Tideflats" yard.
The train did not begin its journey blocked, but was blocked at Aberdeen which is included in these numbers and which is why the biggest difference between the "includes work" and "excludes work" is on that leg of the journey. "Yard dwell time" in that instance was about an hour. Notwithstanding that this was a "hotshot," it did do work along the way -- there was certain intermediate freight assigned to #261 or #262 (#261's eastbound counterpart).
Crew changes on 261 were rolling crew changes and did not appreciably affect the schedule time. Note the times on divisions that included significant mountain grades and curvature. Power was GP-40s and Little Joe electrics; 3000 tons max.
A typical run, total time, Bensenville to Tacoma, was 39.7 mph (92% of the time); on a good day, good weather, it could average over its divisions 43.7 mph.
KCSfan wrote: 5 days across country for perishables is pitiful by any standard of measurement. My God in the 1940's the ICRR was running 10 and 12 car unit trains of strawberries in wooden sided Railway Express Reefers during the spring season covering the 867 miles from Hammind, LA to Chicago in 16+ hours which rivaled the times of the Panama Limited and City of NO. How did they do it, in a word PRIORITY. They were dispatched as passenger extras behind high stepping 4-6-2's and stopped only for engine and crew changes en route.
Well, strawberries are a bad example.
So I knew this really hot lady who got into railroad management with the Milwaukee and latter CSX. Her name was Dorthy Crenshaw. If any of you knows where she's at please email me, 'cause I'm single again.
So I've got her out to dinner one night and we get a strawberry dish for dessert. In my ususal "Sweet Talkin' Guy" approach, I turn the converstation to the movement of freight. And I unfortunatly say: "You know, these fly". It pretty much went downhill from there.
Strawberies are so perishiable that they move by air freight. Or they are produced locally. Or they put a truck drivin' team on 'em. Forget strawberries.
But the railroads can successfully handle the lettuce from California to New York. And they can handle the bacon you eat for breakfast. And your steak. It's just gonna' take someone to put it all together.
greyhounds wrote: KCSfan wrote: 5 days across country for perishables is pitiful by any standard of measurement. My God in the 1940's the ICRR was running 10 and 12 car unit trains of strawberries in wooden sided Railway Express Reefers during the spring season covering the 867 miles from Hammind, LA to Chicago in 16+ hours which rivaled the times of the Panama Limited and City of NO. How did they do it, in a word PRIORITY. They were dispatched as passenger extras behind high stepping 4-6-2's and stopped only for engine and crew changes en route. Well, strawberries are a bad example. So I knew this really hot lady who got into railroad management with the Milwaukee and latter CSX. Her name was Dorthy Crenshaw. If any of you knows where she's at please email me, 'cause I'm single again. So I've got her out to dinner one night and we get a strawberry dish for dessert. In my ususal "Sweet Talkin' Guy" approach, I turn the converstation to the movement of freight. And I unfortunatly say: "You know, these fly". It pretty much went downhill from there. Strawberies are so perishiable that they move by air freight. Or they are produced locally. Or they put a truck drivin' team on 'em. Forget strawberries. But the railroads can successfully handle the lettuce from California to New York. And they can handle the bacon you eat for breakfast. And your steak. It's just gonna' take someone to put it all together.
I had a air freight load off a KLM Airlines at Kennedy. It had 6 pallets for the Grocery market near Philly. 4 Cases of beef tomatos packed in balsa under 1000 pounds of green peppers did not survive the trip.
I did pull my knife to cut the netting and repack the load to save the tomatos but Kennedy's foreman told me in no uncertain terms not to touch it.
The following day's yelling in 4 languages on two seperate payphones at the same time in conference call was one to remember as everyone tried to assign blame.
That was a very long time ago.
What I know of Perishables was they would travel up to 10 days in a reefer once loaded including time for icing in the late 40's from California to New York Markets which was pretty durn good for the time.
I think some perishables like Strawberries are so hot that they were put on passenger trains and rushed to market absolutely asap.
Brian (IA) http://blhanel.rrpicturearchives.net.
bcrailex wrote: OK....who took that pretty pic of my train???Nice job....Heard you guys are having trouble catching it!!! Hehehehehe...BCollinsRailex
If that thing was on the old MP main between Little Rock and St. Louis I would catch it no worries.
While I couldn't find bcrailex's original introductory message in this thread(downloads seem to come in different order than on screen), I did note in that message as quoted by JOdom back in 2002, that hybrid locos were expected to begin switching Railex plants this year. While passing thru Walla Walla last week, I noticed a yellow RC unit at the Blue Mountain yard and wondered if it was the new tech expected(altho not a goat by any means) The same old red switcher was scene briefly at Wallula Junction facility(who is Frontier Rail Co., said to be switching firm?), plus a Watco geep in nearby yard.
BTW, there are several good aerial photos of that facility(with reefer strings) on Port of Walla Walla website, and a few ground level pix plus lotsa press releases / news accounts of initial operations on Railex' own website. I mistook it for U.P. reefer repair facility on fast driveby, then discovered this thread on search for any info about WW area railroads(to clarify what I had and hadn't seen while in town). Rich and informative debate and discussion for sure.
greyhounds wrote:It's good!And it ain't all that slow. The "perishables" out of Washington State aren't all that "perishable". Apples, pears, onions, potatoes. They ain't wilting like lettuce. Just keep 'em moving and you've got the deal.The apples are the big deal. (something like 19 pounds of apples per person per year in the US) They go into storage after harvest and are shipped on an as needed basis to eastern markets. You can keep a good apple around for a while, if you treat it right."Forward Locate" them in Albany and you can offer overnight delivery to any grocer in the Northeast. (Inventory cost thing.) Store 'em in Yakima - or store 'em in Albany, don't make no one no never mind. But if you can offer overnight delivery of Washington State fruit in the Norheast you B a winner!At least they're trying. For far too long the railroads have ignored the food markiet. Give UP/CSX a pat on the back. They're giving it a try!As for "bi-modal" technology. It has failed time and time again.
"Forward Locate" them in Albany and you can offer overnight delivery to any grocer in the Northeast. (Inventory cost thing.) Store 'em in Yakima - or store 'em in Albany, don't make no one no never mind. " If I am not mistaken you are absolutely right on this...The apples are stored in an environment that is a 'gased' atmosphere, to stop ripening. So a shi[[ping point near the population centers of the east makes really good sense, not to mention short hauls for drivers who live in the area served.
"Forward Locate" them in Albany and you can offer overnight delivery to any grocer in the Northeast. (Inventory cost thing.) Store 'em in Yakima - or store 'em in Albany, don't make no one no never mind. " If I am not mistaken, you are absolutely right on this...Apples are stored in an environment that is a 'gased' atmosphere, to stop ripening. So a shipping point near the population centers of the East makes really good sense, not to mention short hauls for drivers who live in the area served.
I have been long out of the apple business but can recall walking into the company warehouse store up there in Washington and buying apples direct for 15 cents a pound at a time when walmart was selling for roughly 50 cents a pound. It would take the two of us a week to go through that bag of apples with the in-cab cooler it was kept in. These warehouses carefully dole out apples all the year long.
Truly a wonderous bounty of apples provided by the good rain and the Columbia river.
Regarding wiltage, Apples are strong. It's the airride that keeps them from getting beat and bruised. It's the greens you gotta watch out for; or the dough. That stuff once it starts to lose it's temperature and get hot, it's all worthless. Some shippers make the mistake and break a commandment "Thou shalt pre-cool the trailer before loading" thinking that today's reefer units are capable of chilling 90 degree field picked produce down to 33 degrees. That wont happen.
What happened if you did try it? WAL.. it will take you a week of high side humming.. nay.. growling from the reefer unit 24/7 burning oceans of fuel and you will reduce the temp on the load to 60 degrees. It's basically the war against stored heat within the mass of the load. You need "Blast Chillers" for those. Sometimes truck reefers caught fire trying to chill a load because a shipper was too cheap to own or operate blast chillers.
Sometimes they put the load on, get it moving and then sell the stuff as it moves. We might not know precisely where it will be delivered to for a time but if the broker works fast enough they can make the sale happen and it will be delivered.
One more tidbit that I dont think is brought up yet... damaged goods. Those get taken out of the retail process and resold to whole sale. Within hours they are processed to buyers who are not as concerned with the quality of the goods. HOWEVER.... damage could be something as simple as a dent in the packaging with nothing wrong with the foodstuffs at all.
Good news, all right! Now I have a train to watch that might pass through on a work-day! I hadn't known about this, but will check on it from work tomorrow.
I read somewhere the name of the town in California that anticipates the new Railex facility, and doing business with UP. Wish I could think of it.
Meanwhile, ZWASKP-07 appears to have encountered rough weather in Oregon and Idaho--it's consumed nearly an additional day this week.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Pretty sure it wasn't Salinas--I'm thinking much closer to LA.
No second train this week, after all, at least not a ZWASKP (should have checked "Q").
First train is late enough for both of them--sometimes it's in when I get off from work on Sunday, but today it wasn't even to Cheyenne yet.
KCSfan wrote: 5 days across country for perishables is pitiful by any standard of measurement. My God in the 1940's the ICRR was running 10 and 12 car unit trains of strawberries in wooden sided Railway Express Reefers during the spring season covering the 867 miles from Hammind, LA to Chicago in 16+ hours which rivaled the times of the Panama Limited and City of NO. How did they do it, in a word PRIORITY. They were dispatched as passenger extras behind high stepping 4-6-2's and stopped only for engine and crew changes en route. This brings me to my simplistic views which too often don't seem to be shared by the railroads today: 1)Provide the service (translate that into transit times) the shipper requires at 2) competetive and compensatory rates and most importantly 3) consistently deliver the promised service. If the railroads can't meet these objectives for a specific commodity or on a specific route then leave that business to another mode of transportation that can. For the best example of this philosophy think for a minute what commodities are and are not hauled by river barge. The traditional $ per ton mile mentality of the railroads just doesn't apply anymore.
The biggest impediment to offering better, more consistent service that I see today is this: a railroad that enjoys the advantages of having its principal mainlines equipped with double-track C.T.C. and universal crossovers every six to eight miles already is (or soon will be) choked with traffic. And if that railroad is mixing 70-mph, high-horsepower-per-trailing-ton container/trailer/perishable traffic with 40/50-mph bulk commodity unit trains and mixed merchandise trains that are climbing hills with razor thin horsepower-per-trailing-ton ratios, the hotshots don't have a chance. Once that hotshot gets stuck behind some woefully underpowered "pooch" there's almost no way to get around it without stabbing several trains moving in the opposite direction.
Without center sidings or directional sidings available for sorting trains - places where "the dogs" can be parked temporarily while the hotshots get around them - the higher growth potential premium service will continue to suffer.
This week's train is going to take more than four days to do what the initial run did in two.
Part of the reason may be that the initial train had five units all the way across--it now usually has only three east of Nampa.
Perhaps the reason for that is that the cars weigh more than 120 tons apiece, a threshhold above which the train is limited to 50 m.p.h. (Tons-per-operative-brake restrictions). Would adding a couple of empties to the train be allowed to decrease TPOB and restore the train to 70? Then power it accordingly? Or would it still get hung up in traffic everywhere?
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