QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed Sorry the tape I have shows the turbine in ELA as well as Echo canyon. Yes the tape said they also operated between GR & Chey. It also showed it many times without any diesel power whatsoever. It is really great to see the cars they had at that time vs today. [:o)][:p][:)]
Scott - Dispatcher, Norfolk Southern
Originally posted by TrainFreak409 Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, July 29, 2005 1:32 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar ....or didn't they have some sort of hydraulic drive engines about that time too....Can anyone help a bit on which and what it might have been....Their appearance was huge in size..... could you possibly be thinking of the Krause Maffei diesel hydraulics that were used by SP/DRGW? Reply Edit TrainFreak409 Member sinceDecember 2003 From: Dallas, GA 2,643 posts Posted by TrainFreak409 on Friday, July 29, 2005 1:37 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed The tape I have did not mention bunker "M". If my memory serves me correctly I think they ordered 40 or so of the turbines & ran them about 10 years. If you want to know anything specific let me know & I will watch the tape again. I think the later ordered ones had higher HP then the 1st ones also. [:o)][:p][:)] They did have more horsepower. The original order, the Side Breathers number 51-60 had 4500 horsepower. The second order, the Verandas, numbers 61-75, had the same ratings. The only difference was the catwalks on the outside since crews did not wi***o walk INSIDE around the turbine. And the Verandas were only slightly longer, by a few inches. The third order, The Big Blows, numbers 1-30, pumped out 8500 horsepower, and were later upgraded to a whopping 10,000 horsepower. Thank you, if I need any specifics, I'll ask, but as of now, I have a complete roster of Steam and Gas turbines in the US from 1938 to 1961, and have all the information I want/can handle right now. Well, I do have one question, what movie is it? Scott - Dispatcher, Norfolk Southern Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, July 29, 2005 1:56 PM It must have been a instructional/promo film made by the UPRR & probably transferred to VHS when that became the mode. The film also never mentions 10,000HP locos if my memory is correct. I would suspect that the UPRR used it as a sales tool. [:o)][:p][:)] Originally posted by TrainFreak409 [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Friday, July 29, 2005 1:58 PM First 25 turbines, 4800 hp. The rest were 8500 hp. Initial tester GE/Alco numbered 101, renumbered UP50 and painted in UP colors, tested by UP, returned to GE. Original GE/Alco prototype had dual cabs, one on each end. Units 51-60 delivered in 1952, same as the prototype, except single cab. Units 61-75 delivered in 1954, these were also 4800 hp single units, but had the walkway outside, know as the veranda turbines. 1958-61, units 1 thru 30 delivered, these are the "Big Blows" with a larger turbine, rated at 8500 hp, with an A and B unit, using the fuel tenders from retired steam locomotives Units carried the control cab, aux (holster) diesel; the B unit contained the generators and the turbine. All used bunker C fuel oil, which needed to be pre heated before filling tenders, the turbines also pre heated the oil ahead and behind the turbines fuel pump. Cooled, bunker C looks like melted hot asphalt. Fuel use running at speed with load was an average of 600 gallons per hour. Holster diesel engine in the A unit was a 600 hp Cummings. They would start the turbines on diesel fuel till the turbine had spun up to speed, then the heated bunker C was switched on. Originally run in MU turbine consists, the second turbine would often shut down in tunnels due to the hot exhaust gas from the lead unit choking the second one when it was drawn into the high intake, hence the double heading with normal diesel electric units. The problem existed with these units as well, but not as badly. Wear and tear on the turbine, and the rising cost of bunker C resulted in all turbines off roster by the end of 1970. UP experimented with both pulverized coal dust in a home built turbine, made from a retired Alco PA, and a propane conversion of a Big Blow, 8500 series. Neither worked well, the coal powered turbine never ran in revenue service. The Diesel Hydraulic your thinking of is the Krauss-Maffei..Rostered by the SP and the Rio Grande...used a hydraulic transmission and cardan shafts, (u joints) to a gearbox. Rated at 4000hp. SP had three, Rio Grande had three. None survived the rigors of US railroading. Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, July 29, 2005 1:59 PM It opens at GE plant in upstate NY & also shows its trial runs on NYC tracks to Selkirk [:o)][:p][:)] Originally posted by TrainFreak409 Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply dldance Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Near Promentory UT 1,590 posts Posted by dldance on Friday, July 29, 2005 2:30 PM Based on Ed's comment of 600 gal per hour - a turbine running up Echo Canyon at about 20 mph would burn about 30 gal/mile. Not far off the 34.8 gal/mile estimate posted earlier. They were thirsty critters! dd Reply TrainFreak409 Member sinceDecember 2003 From: Dallas, GA 2,643 posts Posted by TrainFreak409 on Friday, July 29, 2005 2:33 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed It opens at GE plant in upstate NY & also shows its trial runs on NYC tracks to Selkirk [:o)][:p][:)] Originally posted by TrainFreak409 What locomotive is being demonstrated? Is it the 1938 steam turbine? If it is, it is Pentrex's "UP's Mighty Turbines." Scott - Dispatcher, Norfolk Southern Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, July 29, 2005 2:45 PM I would have to run the tape but off the top of my head I do not think it was a 38 loco as the Prez of the UPRR is shown accepting the loco for service. [:o)][:p][:p] Originally posted by TrainFreak409 [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Leon Silverman Member sinceJuly 2004 785 posts Posted by Leon Silverman on Friday, July 29, 2005 2:50 PM The real thirst of the turbines was the fact that they still drank 200 gals and hour at idle. Since the turbines drank one third of their full power (600 gallons per hour) rate at idle, I suspect thier idle speed noise was also similarly high. Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Friday, July 29, 2005 2:59 PM I read somewhere once where one of the big blows was parked with the exhaust directly under a road overpass. Even at idle the exhaust "blew" a 8 ft. hole clean through the overpass. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, July 29, 2005 3:05 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard The Diesel Hydraulic your thinking of is the Krauss-Maffei..Rostered by the SP and the Rio Grande...used a hydraulic transmission and cardan shafts, (u joints) to a gearbox. Rated at 4000hp. SP had three, Rio Grande had three. None survived the rigors of US railroading. Ed Weren't there a total of 21? There was the original order of 6 cowl units, 3 apiece to SP and D&RGW in 1961, but I seem to recall that after SP purchased the 3 D&RGW units, they took delivery on 15 more units that were "hood" style rather than cowl, but which were still KM's hydraulic drive units Reply Edit Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Friday, July 29, 2005 3:33 PM AntiGates....Guess a bit too much time has passed now to really know what and where I saw these big fellows....Turbine or Diesel Hyd.....Guess at this point I can't pin it down. I do remember seeing four sets of trucks...and they were massive in size. Certainly in UP colors. And we were right close to them with the highway being right next to the tracks. Quentin Reply edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Friday, July 29, 2005 3:57 PM I would guess that, due to the fuel issue, and the incredible noise, these things didn’t sit around at idle often and when they did, the turbine was shut off and the thing was moved around on the small diesel. Another guess was that, short of the engine service turning time, they didn’t spend to much time sitting in a yard, my bet would be the minute they hit yard limits with an inbound, the yard crews would have any outbound train for them already on ground air, tested and ready to go, so as to make the yard time for them as short as possible. But man, riding one of those must have really been a blast! Video Rails has a nice video, a lot of color 16mm film shots, with the standard boring high school educational film guy voice doing the narration. If I remember correctly, it also had a lot of god, clean shots of the freight cars of the day, including an open bi level auto rack full of Fairlanes! The Pentrax vid has an opening section on the GE SteamTurbine, from the frame up in the backshop, pretty neat film. It was a condensing system, reused the steam by running it through condenser panels to convert it back to water... Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, July 29, 2005 4:22 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar AntiGates....Guess a bit too much time has passed now to really know what and where I saw these big fellows....Turbine or Diesel Hyd.....Guess at this point I can't pin it down. I do remember seeing four sets of trucks...and they were massive in size. Certainly in UP colors. And we were right close to them with the highway being right next to the tracks. Well, so far as I know, none of the KM Hydraulics were ever in UP paint Here is one of the "cowl" units in D&RGW livery and another, of the "hooded " variety as owned by SP Reply Edit edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Friday, July 29, 2005 4:33 PM Didnt the U50 ride on four sets of four axel trucks? And I though the DDXs had four fours also... Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply TrainFreak409 Member sinceDecember 2003 From: Dallas, GA 2,643 posts Posted by TrainFreak409 on Friday, July 29, 2005 8:25 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas These were diesel electrics, not hydraulics. When these were first built someone had wired the electrical wrong. On there first voyage when they hit transition speed there was an explosion and fireworks in the electrical cabinet and they had to be taken out of service and repaired. This was the first of there troubles and certainly not the last. When they did run they were almost never trusted to haul a train by themselves and they didn't last long. Out of all the double deisels UP bought, these were the first to be retired and scrapped. Okay, I know what I was thinking about, the ALCo Century 643H. My bad. edblysard: The U50D rode on four B trucks, or four two axle trucks, for eight axles all together. The DD's had two D trucks, or two four axle trucks. Scott - Dispatcher, Norfolk Southern Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Friday, July 29, 2005 8:50 PM AntiGates....Those are wild looking brutes...And three of them in the Rio Grande photo is wild.....Just think of the money it would have cost to keep that set of motive power running.... Quentin Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, July 29, 2005 9:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar AntiGates....Those are wild looking brutes...And three of them in the Rio Grande photo is wild.....Just think of the money it would have cost to keep that set of motive power running.... Well, I know very little in terms of locomotive drive,, but it always seemed to me that hydro was the best way to go, ....couldn't figure out why no one had ever tried it..Then I found out that SP and D&RGW had, and were not impressed with it enough to pursue the concept...somewhat humbling. Reply Edit Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Friday, July 29, 2005 9:20 PM ...Perhaps maintenance was a factor too..... Quentin Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Friday, July 29, 2005 9:26 PM ...Our last auto was equipped with hydraulic motors to run the cooling fans for the engine cooling radiator....and the same model that we replaced it with now has conventional electric motors to drive those same fans...So from that, I'm drawing the decision to do that most likely was cost. Perhaps using that principle on the much larger scale indicates they might have come to that decision too. Quentin Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, July 29, 2005 10:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar ...Perhaps maintenance was a factor too..... I guess it was..... but then..when I think about "locked rotor" type overload conditions for electric motors, I'd think there would be a greater benefit in taking the 'welders glove' out of the throttle hand of the engineer, if you get my drift. Reply Edit Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Friday, July 29, 2005 10:35 PM ...Assume you might be referring to someone who overloads the traction motors to the point they fry...... Quentin Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, July 29, 2005 10:47 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar ...Assume you might be referring to someone who overloads the traction motors to the point they fry...... Zactly!! Reply Edit edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Saturday, July 30, 2005 5:04 AM I think it was more of a maintainance and cost issue. If you have ever swaped out an electric motor in something, anything, versus removing a gear box and the attendent u-joints... Quentin, Take a look here and see if any of these look familar. http://www.worldrailfans.org/Articles/US/DoubleDiesels.shtml Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Saturday, July 30, 2005 7:47 AM ....Ed, it's hard to say...but I don't believe it was any pictured in your post.....Some features I might remember were:...2 sets of trucks at both ends...probably 2 axles each.....Possible "chamfer" in the body at the top along the sides...perhaps 45 degrees and I seem to remember of lots of grill work {venting}, along the sides of the bodies....and the units seem to be massive in size.....For some reason the discription: hydraulic or gas turbine stuck in my mind at the time... Now for pricing of components...as you note in your last post.....One only has to purchase a few double cardon joints to realize they are not cheap....!! Quentin Reply jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Saturday, July 30, 2005 8:51 AM Somewhere about 1961, I rode the Challenger (the passenger train, not the engine) from Chicago to LA and we passed several of the UP turbines. They were LOUD. As an aside, the Illinois Railway Museum has DDA40X #6930 sitting outside and in bad need of a paint job. Still is an impressive piece of machinery. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, July 31, 2005 1:45 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar ....Ed, it's hard to say...but I don't believe it was any pictured in your post.....Some features I might remember were:...2 sets of trucks at both ends...probably 2 axles each.....Possible "chamfer" in the body at the top along the sides...perhaps 45 degrees and I seem to remember of lots of grill work {venting}, along the sides of the bodies....and the units seem to be massive in size.....For some reason the discription: hydraulic or gas turbine stuck in my mind at the time... Now for pricing of components...as you note in your last post.....One only has to purchase a few double cardon joints to realize they are not cheap....!! Just for the sake of completeness, the ALCO Diesel Hydraulic DH643's shown here are massive with abundant side venting. http://espee.railfan.net/spdh-643.html Probably not the ones you are thinking of though Reply Edit rvos1979 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Burlington, WI 1,418 posts Posted by rvos1979 on Sunday, July 31, 2005 2:44 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard I would guess that, due to the fuel issue, and the incredible noise, these things didn’t sit around at idle often and when they did, the turbine was shut off and the thing was moved around on the small diesel. Another guess was that, short of the engine service turning time, they didn’t spend to much time sitting in a yard, my bet would be the minute they hit yard limits with an inbound, the yard crews would have any outbound train for them already on ground air, tested and ready to go, so as to make the yard time for them as short as possible. But man, riding one of those must have really been a blast! Ed I went to an NTPA pull a while back and they were running the modified tractor class, several guys were running multiple jet turbine engines on their rigs. It took them a while to get the power up, but once they did, the noise was deafening, even with earplugs and earmuffs on. I can only imagine what the Big Blows sounded like. Randy Randy Vos "Ever have one of those days where you couldn't hit the ground with your hat??" - Waylon Jennings "May the Lord take a liking to you and blow you up, real good" - SCTV Reply 123 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub
QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar ....or didn't they have some sort of hydraulic drive engines about that time too....Can anyone help a bit on which and what it might have been....Their appearance was huge in size.....
QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed The tape I have did not mention bunker "M". If my memory serves me correctly I think they ordered 40 or so of the turbines & ran them about 10 years. If you want to know anything specific let me know & I will watch the tape again. I think the later ordered ones had higher HP then the 1st ones also. [:o)][:p][:)]
Originally posted by TrainFreak409 [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Friday, July 29, 2005 1:58 PM First 25 turbines, 4800 hp. The rest were 8500 hp. Initial tester GE/Alco numbered 101, renumbered UP50 and painted in UP colors, tested by UP, returned to GE. Original GE/Alco prototype had dual cabs, one on each end. Units 51-60 delivered in 1952, same as the prototype, except single cab. Units 61-75 delivered in 1954, these were also 4800 hp single units, but had the walkway outside, know as the veranda turbines. 1958-61, units 1 thru 30 delivered, these are the "Big Blows" with a larger turbine, rated at 8500 hp, with an A and B unit, using the fuel tenders from retired steam locomotives Units carried the control cab, aux (holster) diesel; the B unit contained the generators and the turbine. All used bunker C fuel oil, which needed to be pre heated before filling tenders, the turbines also pre heated the oil ahead and behind the turbines fuel pump. Cooled, bunker C looks like melted hot asphalt. Fuel use running at speed with load was an average of 600 gallons per hour. Holster diesel engine in the A unit was a 600 hp Cummings. They would start the turbines on diesel fuel till the turbine had spun up to speed, then the heated bunker C was switched on. Originally run in MU turbine consists, the second turbine would often shut down in tunnels due to the hot exhaust gas from the lead unit choking the second one when it was drawn into the high intake, hence the double heading with normal diesel electric units. The problem existed with these units as well, but not as badly. Wear and tear on the turbine, and the rising cost of bunker C resulted in all turbines off roster by the end of 1970. UP experimented with both pulverized coal dust in a home built turbine, made from a retired Alco PA, and a propane conversion of a Big Blow, 8500 series. Neither worked well, the coal powered turbine never ran in revenue service. The Diesel Hydraulic your thinking of is the Krauss-Maffei..Rostered by the SP and the Rio Grande...used a hydraulic transmission and cardan shafts, (u joints) to a gearbox. Rated at 4000hp. SP had three, Rio Grande had three. None survived the rigors of US railroading. Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, July 29, 2005 1:59 PM It opens at GE plant in upstate NY & also shows its trial runs on NYC tracks to Selkirk [:o)][:p][:)] Originally posted by TrainFreak409 Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply dldance Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Near Promentory UT 1,590 posts Posted by dldance on Friday, July 29, 2005 2:30 PM Based on Ed's comment of 600 gal per hour - a turbine running up Echo Canyon at about 20 mph would burn about 30 gal/mile. Not far off the 34.8 gal/mile estimate posted earlier. They were thirsty critters! dd Reply TrainFreak409 Member sinceDecember 2003 From: Dallas, GA 2,643 posts Posted by TrainFreak409 on Friday, July 29, 2005 2:33 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed It opens at GE plant in upstate NY & also shows its trial runs on NYC tracks to Selkirk [:o)][:p][:)] Originally posted by TrainFreak409 What locomotive is being demonstrated? Is it the 1938 steam turbine? If it is, it is Pentrex's "UP's Mighty Turbines." Scott - Dispatcher, Norfolk Southern Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, July 29, 2005 2:45 PM I would have to run the tape but off the top of my head I do not think it was a 38 loco as the Prez of the UPRR is shown accepting the loco for service. [:o)][:p][:p] Originally posted by TrainFreak409 [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Leon Silverman Member sinceJuly 2004 785 posts Posted by Leon Silverman on Friday, July 29, 2005 2:50 PM The real thirst of the turbines was the fact that they still drank 200 gals and hour at idle. Since the turbines drank one third of their full power (600 gallons per hour) rate at idle, I suspect thier idle speed noise was also similarly high. Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Friday, July 29, 2005 2:59 PM I read somewhere once where one of the big blows was parked with the exhaust directly under a road overpass. Even at idle the exhaust "blew" a 8 ft. hole clean through the overpass. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, July 29, 2005 3:05 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard The Diesel Hydraulic your thinking of is the Krauss-Maffei..Rostered by the SP and the Rio Grande...used a hydraulic transmission and cardan shafts, (u joints) to a gearbox. Rated at 4000hp. SP had three, Rio Grande had three. None survived the rigors of US railroading. Ed Weren't there a total of 21? There was the original order of 6 cowl units, 3 apiece to SP and D&RGW in 1961, but I seem to recall that after SP purchased the 3 D&RGW units, they took delivery on 15 more units that were "hood" style rather than cowl, but which were still KM's hydraulic drive units Reply Edit Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Friday, July 29, 2005 3:33 PM AntiGates....Guess a bit too much time has passed now to really know what and where I saw these big fellows....Turbine or Diesel Hyd.....Guess at this point I can't pin it down. I do remember seeing four sets of trucks...and they were massive in size. Certainly in UP colors. And we were right close to them with the highway being right next to the tracks. Quentin Reply edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Friday, July 29, 2005 3:57 PM I would guess that, due to the fuel issue, and the incredible noise, these things didn’t sit around at idle often and when they did, the turbine was shut off and the thing was moved around on the small diesel. Another guess was that, short of the engine service turning time, they didn’t spend to much time sitting in a yard, my bet would be the minute they hit yard limits with an inbound, the yard crews would have any outbound train for them already on ground air, tested and ready to go, so as to make the yard time for them as short as possible. But man, riding one of those must have really been a blast! Video Rails has a nice video, a lot of color 16mm film shots, with the standard boring high school educational film guy voice doing the narration. If I remember correctly, it also had a lot of god, clean shots of the freight cars of the day, including an open bi level auto rack full of Fairlanes! The Pentrax vid has an opening section on the GE SteamTurbine, from the frame up in the backshop, pretty neat film. It was a condensing system, reused the steam by running it through condenser panels to convert it back to water... Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, July 29, 2005 4:22 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar AntiGates....Guess a bit too much time has passed now to really know what and where I saw these big fellows....Turbine or Diesel Hyd.....Guess at this point I can't pin it down. I do remember seeing four sets of trucks...and they were massive in size. Certainly in UP colors. And we were right close to them with the highway being right next to the tracks. Well, so far as I know, none of the KM Hydraulics were ever in UP paint Here is one of the "cowl" units in D&RGW livery and another, of the "hooded " variety as owned by SP Reply Edit edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Friday, July 29, 2005 4:33 PM Didnt the U50 ride on four sets of four axel trucks? And I though the DDXs had four fours also... Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply TrainFreak409 Member sinceDecember 2003 From: Dallas, GA 2,643 posts Posted by TrainFreak409 on Friday, July 29, 2005 8:25 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas These were diesel electrics, not hydraulics. When these were first built someone had wired the electrical wrong. On there first voyage when they hit transition speed there was an explosion and fireworks in the electrical cabinet and they had to be taken out of service and repaired. This was the first of there troubles and certainly not the last. When they did run they were almost never trusted to haul a train by themselves and they didn't last long. Out of all the double deisels UP bought, these were the first to be retired and scrapped. Okay, I know what I was thinking about, the ALCo Century 643H. My bad. edblysard: The U50D rode on four B trucks, or four two axle trucks, for eight axles all together. The DD's had two D trucks, or two four axle trucks. Scott - Dispatcher, Norfolk Southern Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Friday, July 29, 2005 8:50 PM AntiGates....Those are wild looking brutes...And three of them in the Rio Grande photo is wild.....Just think of the money it would have cost to keep that set of motive power running.... Quentin Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, July 29, 2005 9:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar AntiGates....Those are wild looking brutes...And three of them in the Rio Grande photo is wild.....Just think of the money it would have cost to keep that set of motive power running.... Well, I know very little in terms of locomotive drive,, but it always seemed to me that hydro was the best way to go, ....couldn't figure out why no one had ever tried it..Then I found out that SP and D&RGW had, and were not impressed with it enough to pursue the concept...somewhat humbling. Reply Edit Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Friday, July 29, 2005 9:20 PM ...Perhaps maintenance was a factor too..... Quentin Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Friday, July 29, 2005 9:26 PM ...Our last auto was equipped with hydraulic motors to run the cooling fans for the engine cooling radiator....and the same model that we replaced it with now has conventional electric motors to drive those same fans...So from that, I'm drawing the decision to do that most likely was cost. Perhaps using that principle on the much larger scale indicates they might have come to that decision too. Quentin Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, July 29, 2005 10:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar ...Perhaps maintenance was a factor too..... I guess it was..... but then..when I think about "locked rotor" type overload conditions for electric motors, I'd think there would be a greater benefit in taking the 'welders glove' out of the throttle hand of the engineer, if you get my drift. Reply Edit Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Friday, July 29, 2005 10:35 PM ...Assume you might be referring to someone who overloads the traction motors to the point they fry...... Quentin Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, July 29, 2005 10:47 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar ...Assume you might be referring to someone who overloads the traction motors to the point they fry...... Zactly!! Reply Edit edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Saturday, July 30, 2005 5:04 AM I think it was more of a maintainance and cost issue. If you have ever swaped out an electric motor in something, anything, versus removing a gear box and the attendent u-joints... Quentin, Take a look here and see if any of these look familar. http://www.worldrailfans.org/Articles/US/DoubleDiesels.shtml Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Saturday, July 30, 2005 7:47 AM ....Ed, it's hard to say...but I don't believe it was any pictured in your post.....Some features I might remember were:...2 sets of trucks at both ends...probably 2 axles each.....Possible "chamfer" in the body at the top along the sides...perhaps 45 degrees and I seem to remember of lots of grill work {venting}, along the sides of the bodies....and the units seem to be massive in size.....For some reason the discription: hydraulic or gas turbine stuck in my mind at the time... Now for pricing of components...as you note in your last post.....One only has to purchase a few double cardon joints to realize they are not cheap....!! Quentin Reply jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Saturday, July 30, 2005 8:51 AM Somewhere about 1961, I rode the Challenger (the passenger train, not the engine) from Chicago to LA and we passed several of the UP turbines. They were LOUD. As an aside, the Illinois Railway Museum has DDA40X #6930 sitting outside and in bad need of a paint job. Still is an impressive piece of machinery. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, July 31, 2005 1:45 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar ....Ed, it's hard to say...but I don't believe it was any pictured in your post.....Some features I might remember were:...2 sets of trucks at both ends...probably 2 axles each.....Possible "chamfer" in the body at the top along the sides...perhaps 45 degrees and I seem to remember of lots of grill work {venting}, along the sides of the bodies....and the units seem to be massive in size.....For some reason the discription: hydraulic or gas turbine stuck in my mind at the time... Now for pricing of components...as you note in your last post.....One only has to purchase a few double cardon joints to realize they are not cheap....!! Just for the sake of completeness, the ALCO Diesel Hydraulic DH643's shown here are massive with abundant side venting. http://espee.railfan.net/spdh-643.html Probably not the ones you are thinking of though Reply Edit rvos1979 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Burlington, WI 1,418 posts Posted by rvos1979 on Sunday, July 31, 2005 2:44 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard I would guess that, due to the fuel issue, and the incredible noise, these things didn’t sit around at idle often and when they did, the turbine was shut off and the thing was moved around on the small diesel. Another guess was that, short of the engine service turning time, they didn’t spend to much time sitting in a yard, my bet would be the minute they hit yard limits with an inbound, the yard crews would have any outbound train for them already on ground air, tested and ready to go, so as to make the yard time for them as short as possible. But man, riding one of those must have really been a blast! Ed I went to an NTPA pull a while back and they were running the modified tractor class, several guys were running multiple jet turbine engines on their rigs. It took them a while to get the power up, but once they did, the noise was deafening, even with earplugs and earmuffs on. I can only imagine what the Big Blows sounded like. Randy Randy Vos "Ever have one of those days where you couldn't hit the ground with your hat??" - Waylon Jennings "May the Lord take a liking to you and blow you up, real good" - SCTV Reply 123 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
23 17 46 11
Originally posted by TrainFreak409 Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply dldance Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Near Promentory UT 1,590 posts Posted by dldance on Friday, July 29, 2005 2:30 PM Based on Ed's comment of 600 gal per hour - a turbine running up Echo Canyon at about 20 mph would burn about 30 gal/mile. Not far off the 34.8 gal/mile estimate posted earlier. They were thirsty critters! dd Reply TrainFreak409 Member sinceDecember 2003 From: Dallas, GA 2,643 posts Posted by TrainFreak409 on Friday, July 29, 2005 2:33 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed It opens at GE plant in upstate NY & also shows its trial runs on NYC tracks to Selkirk [:o)][:p][:)] Originally posted by TrainFreak409 What locomotive is being demonstrated? Is it the 1938 steam turbine? If it is, it is Pentrex's "UP's Mighty Turbines." Scott - Dispatcher, Norfolk Southern Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, July 29, 2005 2:45 PM I would have to run the tape but off the top of my head I do not think it was a 38 loco as the Prez of the UPRR is shown accepting the loco for service. [:o)][:p][:p] Originally posted by TrainFreak409 [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Leon Silverman Member sinceJuly 2004 785 posts Posted by Leon Silverman on Friday, July 29, 2005 2:50 PM The real thirst of the turbines was the fact that they still drank 200 gals and hour at idle. Since the turbines drank one third of their full power (600 gallons per hour) rate at idle, I suspect thier idle speed noise was also similarly high. Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Friday, July 29, 2005 2:59 PM I read somewhere once where one of the big blows was parked with the exhaust directly under a road overpass. Even at idle the exhaust "blew" a 8 ft. hole clean through the overpass. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, July 29, 2005 3:05 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard The Diesel Hydraulic your thinking of is the Krauss-Maffei..Rostered by the SP and the Rio Grande...used a hydraulic transmission and cardan shafts, (u joints) to a gearbox. Rated at 4000hp. SP had three, Rio Grande had three. None survived the rigors of US railroading. Ed Weren't there a total of 21? There was the original order of 6 cowl units, 3 apiece to SP and D&RGW in 1961, but I seem to recall that after SP purchased the 3 D&RGW units, they took delivery on 15 more units that were "hood" style rather than cowl, but which were still KM's hydraulic drive units Reply Edit Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Friday, July 29, 2005 3:33 PM AntiGates....Guess a bit too much time has passed now to really know what and where I saw these big fellows....Turbine or Diesel Hyd.....Guess at this point I can't pin it down. I do remember seeing four sets of trucks...and they were massive in size. Certainly in UP colors. And we were right close to them with the highway being right next to the tracks. Quentin Reply edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Friday, July 29, 2005 3:57 PM I would guess that, due to the fuel issue, and the incredible noise, these things didn’t sit around at idle often and when they did, the turbine was shut off and the thing was moved around on the small diesel. Another guess was that, short of the engine service turning time, they didn’t spend to much time sitting in a yard, my bet would be the minute they hit yard limits with an inbound, the yard crews would have any outbound train for them already on ground air, tested and ready to go, so as to make the yard time for them as short as possible. But man, riding one of those must have really been a blast! Video Rails has a nice video, a lot of color 16mm film shots, with the standard boring high school educational film guy voice doing the narration. If I remember correctly, it also had a lot of god, clean shots of the freight cars of the day, including an open bi level auto rack full of Fairlanes! The Pentrax vid has an opening section on the GE SteamTurbine, from the frame up in the backshop, pretty neat film. It was a condensing system, reused the steam by running it through condenser panels to convert it back to water... Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, July 29, 2005 4:22 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar AntiGates....Guess a bit too much time has passed now to really know what and where I saw these big fellows....Turbine or Diesel Hyd.....Guess at this point I can't pin it down. I do remember seeing four sets of trucks...and they were massive in size. Certainly in UP colors. And we were right close to them with the highway being right next to the tracks. Well, so far as I know, none of the KM Hydraulics were ever in UP paint Here is one of the "cowl" units in D&RGW livery and another, of the "hooded " variety as owned by SP Reply Edit edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Friday, July 29, 2005 4:33 PM Didnt the U50 ride on four sets of four axel trucks? And I though the DDXs had four fours also... Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply TrainFreak409 Member sinceDecember 2003 From: Dallas, GA 2,643 posts Posted by TrainFreak409 on Friday, July 29, 2005 8:25 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas These were diesel electrics, not hydraulics. When these were first built someone had wired the electrical wrong. On there first voyage when they hit transition speed there was an explosion and fireworks in the electrical cabinet and they had to be taken out of service and repaired. This was the first of there troubles and certainly not the last. When they did run they were almost never trusted to haul a train by themselves and they didn't last long. Out of all the double deisels UP bought, these were the first to be retired and scrapped. Okay, I know what I was thinking about, the ALCo Century 643H. My bad. edblysard: The U50D rode on four B trucks, or four two axle trucks, for eight axles all together. The DD's had two D trucks, or two four axle trucks. Scott - Dispatcher, Norfolk Southern Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Friday, July 29, 2005 8:50 PM AntiGates....Those are wild looking brutes...And three of them in the Rio Grande photo is wild.....Just think of the money it would have cost to keep that set of motive power running.... Quentin Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, July 29, 2005 9:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar AntiGates....Those are wild looking brutes...And three of them in the Rio Grande photo is wild.....Just think of the money it would have cost to keep that set of motive power running.... Well, I know very little in terms of locomotive drive,, but it always seemed to me that hydro was the best way to go, ....couldn't figure out why no one had ever tried it..Then I found out that SP and D&RGW had, and were not impressed with it enough to pursue the concept...somewhat humbling. Reply Edit Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Friday, July 29, 2005 9:20 PM ...Perhaps maintenance was a factor too..... Quentin Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Friday, July 29, 2005 9:26 PM ...Our last auto was equipped with hydraulic motors to run the cooling fans for the engine cooling radiator....and the same model that we replaced it with now has conventional electric motors to drive those same fans...So from that, I'm drawing the decision to do that most likely was cost. Perhaps using that principle on the much larger scale indicates they might have come to that decision too. Quentin Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, July 29, 2005 10:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar ...Perhaps maintenance was a factor too..... I guess it was..... but then..when I think about "locked rotor" type overload conditions for electric motors, I'd think there would be a greater benefit in taking the 'welders glove' out of the throttle hand of the engineer, if you get my drift. Reply Edit Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Friday, July 29, 2005 10:35 PM ...Assume you might be referring to someone who overloads the traction motors to the point they fry...... Quentin Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, July 29, 2005 10:47 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar ...Assume you might be referring to someone who overloads the traction motors to the point they fry...... Zactly!! Reply Edit edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Saturday, July 30, 2005 5:04 AM I think it was more of a maintainance and cost issue. If you have ever swaped out an electric motor in something, anything, versus removing a gear box and the attendent u-joints... Quentin, Take a look here and see if any of these look familar. http://www.worldrailfans.org/Articles/US/DoubleDiesels.shtml Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Saturday, July 30, 2005 7:47 AM ....Ed, it's hard to say...but I don't believe it was any pictured in your post.....Some features I might remember were:...2 sets of trucks at both ends...probably 2 axles each.....Possible "chamfer" in the body at the top along the sides...perhaps 45 degrees and I seem to remember of lots of grill work {venting}, along the sides of the bodies....and the units seem to be massive in size.....For some reason the discription: hydraulic or gas turbine stuck in my mind at the time... Now for pricing of components...as you note in your last post.....One only has to purchase a few double cardon joints to realize they are not cheap....!! Quentin Reply jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Saturday, July 30, 2005 8:51 AM Somewhere about 1961, I rode the Challenger (the passenger train, not the engine) from Chicago to LA and we passed several of the UP turbines. They were LOUD. As an aside, the Illinois Railway Museum has DDA40X #6930 sitting outside and in bad need of a paint job. Still is an impressive piece of machinery. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, July 31, 2005 1:45 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar ....Ed, it's hard to say...but I don't believe it was any pictured in your post.....Some features I might remember were:...2 sets of trucks at both ends...probably 2 axles each.....Possible "chamfer" in the body at the top along the sides...perhaps 45 degrees and I seem to remember of lots of grill work {venting}, along the sides of the bodies....and the units seem to be massive in size.....For some reason the discription: hydraulic or gas turbine stuck in my mind at the time... Now for pricing of components...as you note in your last post.....One only has to purchase a few double cardon joints to realize they are not cheap....!! Just for the sake of completeness, the ALCO Diesel Hydraulic DH643's shown here are massive with abundant side venting. http://espee.railfan.net/spdh-643.html Probably not the ones you are thinking of though Reply Edit rvos1979 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Burlington, WI 1,418 posts Posted by rvos1979 on Sunday, July 31, 2005 2:44 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard I would guess that, due to the fuel issue, and the incredible noise, these things didn’t sit around at idle often and when they did, the turbine was shut off and the thing was moved around on the small diesel. Another guess was that, short of the engine service turning time, they didn’t spend to much time sitting in a yard, my bet would be the minute they hit yard limits with an inbound, the yard crews would have any outbound train for them already on ground air, tested and ready to go, so as to make the yard time for them as short as possible. But man, riding one of those must have really been a blast! Ed I went to an NTPA pull a while back and they were running the modified tractor class, several guys were running multiple jet turbine engines on their rigs. It took them a while to get the power up, but once they did, the noise was deafening, even with earplugs and earmuffs on. I can only imagine what the Big Blows sounded like. Randy Randy Vos "Ever have one of those days where you couldn't hit the ground with your hat??" - Waylon Jennings "May the Lord take a liking to you and blow you up, real good" - SCTV Reply 123 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed It opens at GE plant in upstate NY & also shows its trial runs on NYC tracks to Selkirk [:o)][:p][:)] Originally posted by TrainFreak409 What locomotive is being demonstrated? Is it the 1938 steam turbine? If it is, it is Pentrex's "UP's Mighty Turbines." Scott - Dispatcher, Norfolk Southern Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, July 29, 2005 2:45 PM I would have to run the tape but off the top of my head I do not think it was a 38 loco as the Prez of the UPRR is shown accepting the loco for service. [:o)][:p][:p] Originally posted by TrainFreak409 [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Leon Silverman Member sinceJuly 2004 785 posts Posted by Leon Silverman on Friday, July 29, 2005 2:50 PM The real thirst of the turbines was the fact that they still drank 200 gals and hour at idle. Since the turbines drank one third of their full power (600 gallons per hour) rate at idle, I suspect thier idle speed noise was also similarly high. Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Friday, July 29, 2005 2:59 PM I read somewhere once where one of the big blows was parked with the exhaust directly under a road overpass. Even at idle the exhaust "blew" a 8 ft. hole clean through the overpass. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, July 29, 2005 3:05 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard The Diesel Hydraulic your thinking of is the Krauss-Maffei..Rostered by the SP and the Rio Grande...used a hydraulic transmission and cardan shafts, (u joints) to a gearbox. Rated at 4000hp. SP had three, Rio Grande had three. None survived the rigors of US railroading. Ed Weren't there a total of 21? There was the original order of 6 cowl units, 3 apiece to SP and D&RGW in 1961, but I seem to recall that after SP purchased the 3 D&RGW units, they took delivery on 15 more units that were "hood" style rather than cowl, but which were still KM's hydraulic drive units Reply Edit Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Friday, July 29, 2005 3:33 PM AntiGates....Guess a bit too much time has passed now to really know what and where I saw these big fellows....Turbine or Diesel Hyd.....Guess at this point I can't pin it down. I do remember seeing four sets of trucks...and they were massive in size. Certainly in UP colors. And we were right close to them with the highway being right next to the tracks. Quentin Reply edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Friday, July 29, 2005 3:57 PM I would guess that, due to the fuel issue, and the incredible noise, these things didn’t sit around at idle often and when they did, the turbine was shut off and the thing was moved around on the small diesel. Another guess was that, short of the engine service turning time, they didn’t spend to much time sitting in a yard, my bet would be the minute they hit yard limits with an inbound, the yard crews would have any outbound train for them already on ground air, tested and ready to go, so as to make the yard time for them as short as possible. But man, riding one of those must have really been a blast! Video Rails has a nice video, a lot of color 16mm film shots, with the standard boring high school educational film guy voice doing the narration. If I remember correctly, it also had a lot of god, clean shots of the freight cars of the day, including an open bi level auto rack full of Fairlanes! The Pentrax vid has an opening section on the GE SteamTurbine, from the frame up in the backshop, pretty neat film. It was a condensing system, reused the steam by running it through condenser panels to convert it back to water... Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, July 29, 2005 4:22 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar AntiGates....Guess a bit too much time has passed now to really know what and where I saw these big fellows....Turbine or Diesel Hyd.....Guess at this point I can't pin it down. I do remember seeing four sets of trucks...and they were massive in size. Certainly in UP colors. And we were right close to them with the highway being right next to the tracks. Well, so far as I know, none of the KM Hydraulics were ever in UP paint Here is one of the "cowl" units in D&RGW livery and another, of the "hooded " variety as owned by SP Reply Edit edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Friday, July 29, 2005 4:33 PM Didnt the U50 ride on four sets of four axel trucks? And I though the DDXs had four fours also... Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply TrainFreak409 Member sinceDecember 2003 From: Dallas, GA 2,643 posts Posted by TrainFreak409 on Friday, July 29, 2005 8:25 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas These were diesel electrics, not hydraulics. When these were first built someone had wired the electrical wrong. On there first voyage when they hit transition speed there was an explosion and fireworks in the electrical cabinet and they had to be taken out of service and repaired. This was the first of there troubles and certainly not the last. When they did run they were almost never trusted to haul a train by themselves and they didn't last long. Out of all the double deisels UP bought, these were the first to be retired and scrapped. Okay, I know what I was thinking about, the ALCo Century 643H. My bad. edblysard: The U50D rode on four B trucks, or four two axle trucks, for eight axles all together. The DD's had two D trucks, or two four axle trucks. Scott - Dispatcher, Norfolk Southern Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Friday, July 29, 2005 8:50 PM AntiGates....Those are wild looking brutes...And three of them in the Rio Grande photo is wild.....Just think of the money it would have cost to keep that set of motive power running.... Quentin Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, July 29, 2005 9:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar AntiGates....Those are wild looking brutes...And three of them in the Rio Grande photo is wild.....Just think of the money it would have cost to keep that set of motive power running.... Well, I know very little in terms of locomotive drive,, but it always seemed to me that hydro was the best way to go, ....couldn't figure out why no one had ever tried it..Then I found out that SP and D&RGW had, and were not impressed with it enough to pursue the concept...somewhat humbling. Reply Edit Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Friday, July 29, 2005 9:20 PM ...Perhaps maintenance was a factor too..... Quentin Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Friday, July 29, 2005 9:26 PM ...Our last auto was equipped with hydraulic motors to run the cooling fans for the engine cooling radiator....and the same model that we replaced it with now has conventional electric motors to drive those same fans...So from that, I'm drawing the decision to do that most likely was cost. Perhaps using that principle on the much larger scale indicates they might have come to that decision too. Quentin Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, July 29, 2005 10:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar ...Perhaps maintenance was a factor too..... I guess it was..... but then..when I think about "locked rotor" type overload conditions for electric motors, I'd think there would be a greater benefit in taking the 'welders glove' out of the throttle hand of the engineer, if you get my drift. Reply Edit Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Friday, July 29, 2005 10:35 PM ...Assume you might be referring to someone who overloads the traction motors to the point they fry...... Quentin Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, July 29, 2005 10:47 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar ...Assume you might be referring to someone who overloads the traction motors to the point they fry...... Zactly!! Reply Edit edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Saturday, July 30, 2005 5:04 AM I think it was more of a maintainance and cost issue. If you have ever swaped out an electric motor in something, anything, versus removing a gear box and the attendent u-joints... Quentin, Take a look here and see if any of these look familar. http://www.worldrailfans.org/Articles/US/DoubleDiesels.shtml Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Saturday, July 30, 2005 7:47 AM ....Ed, it's hard to say...but I don't believe it was any pictured in your post.....Some features I might remember were:...2 sets of trucks at both ends...probably 2 axles each.....Possible "chamfer" in the body at the top along the sides...perhaps 45 degrees and I seem to remember of lots of grill work {venting}, along the sides of the bodies....and the units seem to be massive in size.....For some reason the discription: hydraulic or gas turbine stuck in my mind at the time... Now for pricing of components...as you note in your last post.....One only has to purchase a few double cardon joints to realize they are not cheap....!! Quentin Reply jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Saturday, July 30, 2005 8:51 AM Somewhere about 1961, I rode the Challenger (the passenger train, not the engine) from Chicago to LA and we passed several of the UP turbines. They were LOUD. As an aside, the Illinois Railway Museum has DDA40X #6930 sitting outside and in bad need of a paint job. Still is an impressive piece of machinery. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, July 31, 2005 1:45 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar ....Ed, it's hard to say...but I don't believe it was any pictured in your post.....Some features I might remember were:...2 sets of trucks at both ends...probably 2 axles each.....Possible "chamfer" in the body at the top along the sides...perhaps 45 degrees and I seem to remember of lots of grill work {venting}, along the sides of the bodies....and the units seem to be massive in size.....For some reason the discription: hydraulic or gas turbine stuck in my mind at the time... Now for pricing of components...as you note in your last post.....One only has to purchase a few double cardon joints to realize they are not cheap....!! Just for the sake of completeness, the ALCO Diesel Hydraulic DH643's shown here are massive with abundant side venting. http://espee.railfan.net/spdh-643.html Probably not the ones you are thinking of though Reply Edit rvos1979 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Burlington, WI 1,418 posts Posted by rvos1979 on Sunday, July 31, 2005 2:44 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard I would guess that, due to the fuel issue, and the incredible noise, these things didn’t sit around at idle often and when they did, the turbine was shut off and the thing was moved around on the small diesel. Another guess was that, short of the engine service turning time, they didn’t spend to much time sitting in a yard, my bet would be the minute they hit yard limits with an inbound, the yard crews would have any outbound train for them already on ground air, tested and ready to go, so as to make the yard time for them as short as possible. But man, riding one of those must have really been a blast! Ed I went to an NTPA pull a while back and they were running the modified tractor class, several guys were running multiple jet turbine engines on their rigs. It took them a while to get the power up, but once they did, the noise was deafening, even with earplugs and earmuffs on. I can only imagine what the Big Blows sounded like. Randy Randy Vos "Ever have one of those days where you couldn't hit the ground with your hat??" - Waylon Jennings "May the Lord take a liking to you and blow you up, real good" - SCTV Reply 123 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Originally posted by TrainFreak409
Originally posted by TrainFreak409 [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Leon Silverman Member sinceJuly 2004 785 posts Posted by Leon Silverman on Friday, July 29, 2005 2:50 PM The real thirst of the turbines was the fact that they still drank 200 gals and hour at idle. Since the turbines drank one third of their full power (600 gallons per hour) rate at idle, I suspect thier idle speed noise was also similarly high. Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Friday, July 29, 2005 2:59 PM I read somewhere once where one of the big blows was parked with the exhaust directly under a road overpass. Even at idle the exhaust "blew" a 8 ft. hole clean through the overpass. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, July 29, 2005 3:05 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard The Diesel Hydraulic your thinking of is the Krauss-Maffei..Rostered by the SP and the Rio Grande...used a hydraulic transmission and cardan shafts, (u joints) to a gearbox. Rated at 4000hp. SP had three, Rio Grande had three. None survived the rigors of US railroading. Ed Weren't there a total of 21? There was the original order of 6 cowl units, 3 apiece to SP and D&RGW in 1961, but I seem to recall that after SP purchased the 3 D&RGW units, they took delivery on 15 more units that were "hood" style rather than cowl, but which were still KM's hydraulic drive units Reply Edit Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Friday, July 29, 2005 3:33 PM AntiGates....Guess a bit too much time has passed now to really know what and where I saw these big fellows....Turbine or Diesel Hyd.....Guess at this point I can't pin it down. I do remember seeing four sets of trucks...and they were massive in size. Certainly in UP colors. And we were right close to them with the highway being right next to the tracks. Quentin Reply edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Friday, July 29, 2005 3:57 PM I would guess that, due to the fuel issue, and the incredible noise, these things didn’t sit around at idle often and when they did, the turbine was shut off and the thing was moved around on the small diesel. Another guess was that, short of the engine service turning time, they didn’t spend to much time sitting in a yard, my bet would be the minute they hit yard limits with an inbound, the yard crews would have any outbound train for them already on ground air, tested and ready to go, so as to make the yard time for them as short as possible. But man, riding one of those must have really been a blast! Video Rails has a nice video, a lot of color 16mm film shots, with the standard boring high school educational film guy voice doing the narration. If I remember correctly, it also had a lot of god, clean shots of the freight cars of the day, including an open bi level auto rack full of Fairlanes! The Pentrax vid has an opening section on the GE SteamTurbine, from the frame up in the backshop, pretty neat film. It was a condensing system, reused the steam by running it through condenser panels to convert it back to water... Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, July 29, 2005 4:22 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar AntiGates....Guess a bit too much time has passed now to really know what and where I saw these big fellows....Turbine or Diesel Hyd.....Guess at this point I can't pin it down. I do remember seeing four sets of trucks...and they were massive in size. Certainly in UP colors. And we were right close to them with the highway being right next to the tracks. Well, so far as I know, none of the KM Hydraulics were ever in UP paint Here is one of the "cowl" units in D&RGW livery and another, of the "hooded " variety as owned by SP Reply Edit edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Friday, July 29, 2005 4:33 PM Didnt the U50 ride on four sets of four axel trucks? And I though the DDXs had four fours also... Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply TrainFreak409 Member sinceDecember 2003 From: Dallas, GA 2,643 posts Posted by TrainFreak409 on Friday, July 29, 2005 8:25 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas These were diesel electrics, not hydraulics. When these were first built someone had wired the electrical wrong. On there first voyage when they hit transition speed there was an explosion and fireworks in the electrical cabinet and they had to be taken out of service and repaired. This was the first of there troubles and certainly not the last. When they did run they were almost never trusted to haul a train by themselves and they didn't last long. Out of all the double deisels UP bought, these were the first to be retired and scrapped. Okay, I know what I was thinking about, the ALCo Century 643H. My bad. edblysard: The U50D rode on four B trucks, or four two axle trucks, for eight axles all together. The DD's had two D trucks, or two four axle trucks. Scott - Dispatcher, Norfolk Southern Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Friday, July 29, 2005 8:50 PM AntiGates....Those are wild looking brutes...And three of them in the Rio Grande photo is wild.....Just think of the money it would have cost to keep that set of motive power running.... Quentin Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, July 29, 2005 9:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar AntiGates....Those are wild looking brutes...And three of them in the Rio Grande photo is wild.....Just think of the money it would have cost to keep that set of motive power running.... Well, I know very little in terms of locomotive drive,, but it always seemed to me that hydro was the best way to go, ....couldn't figure out why no one had ever tried it..Then I found out that SP and D&RGW had, and were not impressed with it enough to pursue the concept...somewhat humbling. Reply Edit Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Friday, July 29, 2005 9:20 PM ...Perhaps maintenance was a factor too..... Quentin Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Friday, July 29, 2005 9:26 PM ...Our last auto was equipped with hydraulic motors to run the cooling fans for the engine cooling radiator....and the same model that we replaced it with now has conventional electric motors to drive those same fans...So from that, I'm drawing the decision to do that most likely was cost. Perhaps using that principle on the much larger scale indicates they might have come to that decision too. Quentin Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, July 29, 2005 10:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar ...Perhaps maintenance was a factor too..... I guess it was..... but then..when I think about "locked rotor" type overload conditions for electric motors, I'd think there would be a greater benefit in taking the 'welders glove' out of the throttle hand of the engineer, if you get my drift. Reply Edit Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Friday, July 29, 2005 10:35 PM ...Assume you might be referring to someone who overloads the traction motors to the point they fry...... Quentin Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, July 29, 2005 10:47 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar ...Assume you might be referring to someone who overloads the traction motors to the point they fry...... Zactly!! Reply Edit edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Saturday, July 30, 2005 5:04 AM I think it was more of a maintainance and cost issue. If you have ever swaped out an electric motor in something, anything, versus removing a gear box and the attendent u-joints... Quentin, Take a look here and see if any of these look familar. http://www.worldrailfans.org/Articles/US/DoubleDiesels.shtml Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Saturday, July 30, 2005 7:47 AM ....Ed, it's hard to say...but I don't believe it was any pictured in your post.....Some features I might remember were:...2 sets of trucks at both ends...probably 2 axles each.....Possible "chamfer" in the body at the top along the sides...perhaps 45 degrees and I seem to remember of lots of grill work {venting}, along the sides of the bodies....and the units seem to be massive in size.....For some reason the discription: hydraulic or gas turbine stuck in my mind at the time... Now for pricing of components...as you note in your last post.....One only has to purchase a few double cardon joints to realize they are not cheap....!! Quentin Reply jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Saturday, July 30, 2005 8:51 AM Somewhere about 1961, I rode the Challenger (the passenger train, not the engine) from Chicago to LA and we passed several of the UP turbines. They were LOUD. As an aside, the Illinois Railway Museum has DDA40X #6930 sitting outside and in bad need of a paint job. Still is an impressive piece of machinery. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, July 31, 2005 1:45 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar ....Ed, it's hard to say...but I don't believe it was any pictured in your post.....Some features I might remember were:...2 sets of trucks at both ends...probably 2 axles each.....Possible "chamfer" in the body at the top along the sides...perhaps 45 degrees and I seem to remember of lots of grill work {venting}, along the sides of the bodies....and the units seem to be massive in size.....For some reason the discription: hydraulic or gas turbine stuck in my mind at the time... Now for pricing of components...as you note in your last post.....One only has to purchase a few double cardon joints to realize they are not cheap....!! Just for the sake of completeness, the ALCO Diesel Hydraulic DH643's shown here are massive with abundant side venting. http://espee.railfan.net/spdh-643.html Probably not the ones you are thinking of though Reply Edit rvos1979 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Burlington, WI 1,418 posts Posted by rvos1979 on Sunday, July 31, 2005 2:44 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard I would guess that, due to the fuel issue, and the incredible noise, these things didn’t sit around at idle often and when they did, the turbine was shut off and the thing was moved around on the small diesel. Another guess was that, short of the engine service turning time, they didn’t spend to much time sitting in a yard, my bet would be the minute they hit yard limits with an inbound, the yard crews would have any outbound train for them already on ground air, tested and ready to go, so as to make the yard time for them as short as possible. But man, riding one of those must have really been a blast! Ed I went to an NTPA pull a while back and they were running the modified tractor class, several guys were running multiple jet turbine engines on their rigs. It took them a while to get the power up, but once they did, the noise was deafening, even with earplugs and earmuffs on. I can only imagine what the Big Blows sounded like. Randy Randy Vos "Ever have one of those days where you couldn't hit the ground with your hat??" - Waylon Jennings "May the Lord take a liking to you and blow you up, real good" - SCTV Reply 123 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard The Diesel Hydraulic your thinking of is the Krauss-Maffei..Rostered by the SP and the Rio Grande...used a hydraulic transmission and cardan shafts, (u joints) to a gearbox. Rated at 4000hp. SP had three, Rio Grande had three. None survived the rigors of US railroading. Ed
Quentin
QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar AntiGates....Guess a bit too much time has passed now to really know what and where I saw these big fellows....Turbine or Diesel Hyd.....Guess at this point I can't pin it down. I do remember seeing four sets of trucks...and they were massive in size. Certainly in UP colors. And we were right close to them with the highway being right next to the tracks.
QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas These were diesel electrics, not hydraulics. When these were first built someone had wired the electrical wrong. On there first voyage when they hit transition speed there was an explosion and fireworks in the electrical cabinet and they had to be taken out of service and repaired. This was the first of there troubles and certainly not the last. When they did run they were almost never trusted to haul a train by themselves and they didn't last long. Out of all the double deisels UP bought, these were the first to be retired and scrapped.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar AntiGates....Those are wild looking brutes...And three of them in the Rio Grande photo is wild.....Just think of the money it would have cost to keep that set of motive power running....
QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar ...Perhaps maintenance was a factor too.....
QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar ...Assume you might be referring to someone who overloads the traction motors to the point they fry......
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar ....Ed, it's hard to say...but I don't believe it was any pictured in your post.....Some features I might remember were:...2 sets of trucks at both ends...probably 2 axles each.....Possible "chamfer" in the body at the top along the sides...perhaps 45 degrees and I seem to remember of lots of grill work {venting}, along the sides of the bodies....and the units seem to be massive in size.....For some reason the discription: hydraulic or gas turbine stuck in my mind at the time... Now for pricing of components...as you note in your last post.....One only has to purchase a few double cardon joints to realize they are not cheap....!!
QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard I would guess that, due to the fuel issue, and the incredible noise, these things didn’t sit around at idle often and when they did, the turbine was shut off and the thing was moved around on the small diesel. Another guess was that, short of the engine service turning time, they didn’t spend to much time sitting in a yard, my bet would be the minute they hit yard limits with an inbound, the yard crews would have any outbound train for them already on ground air, tested and ready to go, so as to make the yard time for them as short as possible. But man, riding one of those must have really been a blast! Ed
Randy Vos
"Ever have one of those days where you couldn't hit the ground with your hat??" - Waylon Jennings
"May the Lord take a liking to you and blow you up, real good" - SCTV
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