British Railway Operations

[Tulyar15]

Cotswold Rail (a ROSCO turned open access operator) have acquired some Class 87 and 86 electric locos and some passengers cars. They've also signed a deal to lease some of the "spare" HSTs.

[Murphy Siding]

Are the electric locos used solely for passenger service, or are some used for freight also?

Thanks

[Tulyar15]

Electric locos are used on some freights. The Channel Tunnel class 92's can now run through from northern France to Glasgow in Scotland. EWS, Freightline and GB Railfreight use various classes of electric locos on freight.

[Murphy Siding]

It sounds like a lot of the system is set up for electric . Is it common to have diesel locos running the same line?

Thanks

[Anonymous]

Atlases Out (Roughly)

I would say (and please somebody correct me) that 2k out of a 10K systme might be wired up in some form or another.

25KV Overheads on the East and West Coast Main Line; 15m of the Great Western, the Great Eastern Main Lines (Kings Lynn,. Norwich and some branches in East Anglia); the Midland Main Line as far as Bedford and the CTRL; 660V DC 3rd in the South East and South Central Bits of England - i.e. London - Dover; Brighton, Portsmouth, Southampton and Weymouth.

So for those bits where freight traffic runs off the juice then diesels are used. Plus there is a charge for the current in the Track Access (operators maybe able to buy juice direct from wholesalers shortly - what fun!).

[Murphy Siding]

In a (reletively) long distance, a freight train may have several different engines?

[Tulyar15]

Somtimes, yes. These days there's more of a tendency to run thru with diesels all the way on electrified lines, but that's always happened to a certain extent.

In the Midlands they've opened a container terminal at Hams Hall (on the site of an old electric generating station) to handle continental traffic. But since it's on the unelectrified Nuneaton - Birmingham line, a class 92 would have to be replaced at Nuneaton for the last few miles. I;m surprised EWS and Virgin haven't thought about getting together to get this line electrified as it is often used for diversions which result in both TOC's having to use diesels to drag electrics when this happens.

[Murphy Siding]

What is considered a long haul for freight in Britain? Here, the railroads frown on *short* hauls of under 500 miles.

[owlsroost]

In the UK, 500 miles would be a long haul - it's less distance than that from the port at Southampton or the Channel Tunnel to Glasgow, and they're about the longest reasonably busy freight routes I can think of.

The longest reasonably direct journey you could make by rail in the UK (e.g. Penzance to Wick) is probably about 800 miles - and west of Taunton/north of Glagow there isn't a lot of railfreight.

Tony

(and I agree with Tulyar15 about the Nuneaton - Birmingham electrification - or rather the lack of it - the main Freightliner terminal in Birmingham is on the same line....if this was combined with electrication of the Water Orton -> Walsall line it would also create a sensible diversionary route for Nuneaton -> Stafford which didn't involve using the busy Coventry - Birmingham line)

[Murphy Siding]

I guess that explains why I read that a lot of freight (the majority?) in Britain moves by truck?

Thanks

[Anonymous]

The reason for the heavy truck use has more to do with the fact that many places don't have freight services - large chunks of rural Britain haven't seen freight trains for many years. Many smaller lines were also closed during the Beeching cuts of the '60s - the government of the time was of the opinion that road transport was the better option for both freight and passenger. They rather failed to spot the problem here in that we're now being told to use our cars less but often have little real alternative, especially in the areas that were hit hardest by Beeching. Interestingly we are seeing a few new efforts to haul by rail - in my part of the world there was a recent trial of Network Rail's swapbody diesel railcars hauling timber. Hopefully it'll catch on as those timber trucks are a real pain on twisting roads!

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Railroading_Brit

The reason for the heavy truck use has more to do with the fact that many places don't have freight services - large chunks of rural Britain haven't seen freight trains for many years. Many smaller lines were also closed during the Beeching cuts of the '60s - the government of the time was of the opinion that road transport was the better option for both freight and passenger. They rather failed to spot the problem here in that we're now being told to use our cars less but often have little real alternative, especially in the areas that were hit hardest by Beeching. Interestingly we are seeing a few new efforts to haul by rail - in my part of the world there was a recent trial of Network Rail's swapbody diesel railcars hauling timber. Hopefully it'll catch on as those timber trucks are a real pain on twisting roads!

Thanks for the responce! I don't quite understand *Beeching* though. What's a swapbody diesel railcar? I like the sound of it- I sell lumber(timber) for a living.[8D]

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

What is considered a long haul for freight in Britain? Here, the railroads frown on *short* hauls of under 500 miles.

I think the longest (in distance) regular freight working in Britain is a china clay train that runs from Cornwall to Scotland, a distance of about 600 miles.

However a container train that runs from Manchester to near Naples in southern Italy does over double that distance, though two-thirs of its journey is not on British soil. I believe this is the longest distance run by an regular sheduled freight train thru the Chunnel. Soon after the chunnel opened in 1994 a special train was run from a US Army base in Britain to one of the former Soviet republics to convey a field hospital as part of the relief operation follwing an earthquake. I hope the country concerned can repay the favour in the light of Hurricane Katrina.

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: I don't quite understand *Beeching* though

Dr Beeching was Chairman of British Railways in the early 1960's, charged with the task of bringing the finances of the railways under control (BR was loosing money heavily, and had also wasted a lot of taxpayers money given to it for modernisation in the 1950's).

One of the things he did (and the thing he's remembered for) was to close a lot of uneconomic lines, passenger services, stations, freight yards etc. and to try and concentrate freight traffic into block trainloads and container trains i.e. get out of wagonload ('loose car' ) freight.

So in the UK, 'Beeching' = cuts in train services.

Tony

[M636C]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by Railroading_Brit

The reason for the heavy truck use has more to do with the fact that many places don't have freight services - large chunks of rural Britain haven't seen freight trains for many years. Many smaller lines were also closed during the Beeching cuts of the '60s - the government of the time was of the opinion that road transport was the better option for both freight and passenger. They rather failed to spot the problem here in that we're now being told to use our cars less but often have little real alternative, especially in the areas that were hit hardest by Beeching. Interestingly we are seeing a few new efforts to haul by rail - in my part of the world there was a recent trial of Network Rail's swapbody diesel railcars hauling timber. Hopefully it'll catch on as those timber trucks are a real pain on twisting roads!

Thanks for the responce! I don't quite understand *Beeching* though. What's a swapbody diesel railcar? I like the sound of it- I sell lumber(timber) for a living.[8D]

The "swapbody diesel railcar" is a German vehicle, called a "Cargo Sprinter" in Germany. It is basically a 63' flat container wagon fitted with a driving cab and two diesel engines under the floor driving the truck axles through hydraulic transmissions. It is intended to provide economical distribution of containers within a large urban area.

Network Rail in the UK purchased two of these cars to carry various loads related to track maintenance and inspection. Because it is a standard vehicle, the deck is too high for it to carry standard containers in the UK where the clearances are too small compared to Germany. It can carry palletised loads, such as timber, as long as they fit the limited British profile. Hence the term "swapbody" used in Europe for intermodal equipment of less than container size.

We have one set in container service in Australia, where the power cars can carry two 20' boxes and they are normally used with other container wagons fitted with multiple unit cables. It hasn't found a real niche just yet, but the owners are still trying.

M636C

[Tulyar15]

From a technical view point the timber trials with the "Cargo Sprinter" earlier this year were successful. It ran a 100 journey from Aberystwyth to Wrexham for a trial period of 4 weeks with about six flat cars loaded with timber sanwiched between the two powered cars (which were also loaded with timber). On its first run a class 37 loco was coupled on just in case it got in to difficulty on the seven mile climb up to Talerdigg Summit at 1 in 49 (2.04%) gradient but it coped fine! I think EWS is trying to get external funding to help meet the costs of buying a couple of these vehicles so they can use them all year round.

One of the potential advantages of these vehicles is that as they employ the same type of engines as the passenger DMUs they can run at the same speeds as them and even couple in multiple with them.

Up until the 1980's British Rail had some parcels DMU's which could also pull a few extra cars and the Southern region had a 3rd rail electric version. On some rural branch lines they used to use these parcels DMU's to pull a few ballast wagons!

For some picturs of some of these workings in Wales, I recommend these sites:-


www.2d53.co.uk/cambriancoast/menu.htm

http://www.penmorfa.com/Archive/eight.htm

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the background - I saw one of these rolling into Aberystwyth and recognised it as being one of the Network Rail units but didn't know much more than that (the trials were reported in the local press but you know how terrible their reporting of anything rail-related is!). I've read a fair bit about the use of the parcels DMU to haul tail loads - apparently they were used on the Cambrian Coast line to haul materials for the Barmouth bridge repairs (the bridge was weakened by marine beetle infestations and was declared "off-limits" to locos) as well as to recover stock left behind on the affected section.

www.railcar.co.uk has plenty of information on the parcels DMUs which might be of interest - they were class 128 under BR numbering. Why none survived into preservation is a bit of a mystery to me though.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by owlsroost

QUOTE: I don't quite understand *Beeching* though

Dr Beeching was Chairman of British Railways in the early 1960's, charged with the task of bringing the finances of the railways under control (BR was loosing money heavily, and had also wasted a lot of taxpayers money given to it for modernisation in the 1950's).

One of the things he did (and the thing he's remembered for) was to close a lot of uneconomic lines, passenger services, stations, freight yards etc. and to try and concentrate freight traffic into block trainloads and container trains i.e. get out of wagonload ('loose car' ) freight.

So in the UK, 'Beeching' = cuts in train services.

Tony

Tony: You mention that BR had wasted a lot of money given to it in the 1950's for modernization. How is that?

Thanks

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by Railroading_Brit

The reason for the heavy truck use has more to do with the fact that many places don't have freight services - large chunks of rural Britain haven't seen freight trains for many years. Many smaller lines were also closed during the Beeching cuts of the '60s - the government of the time was of the opinion that road transport was the better option for both freight and passenger. They rather failed to spot the problem here in that we're now being told to use our cars less but often have little real alternative, especially in the areas that were hit hardest by Beeching. Interestingly we are seeing a few new efforts to haul by rail - in my part of the world there was a recent trial of Network Rail's swapbody diesel railcars hauling timber. Hopefully it'll catch on as those timber trucks are a real pain on twisting roads!

Thanks for the responce! I don't quite understand *Beeching* though. What's a swapbody diesel railcar? I like the sound of it- I sell lumber(timber) for a living.[8D]

The "swapbody diesel railcar" is a German vehicle, called a "Cargo Sprinter" in Germany. It is basically a 63' flat container wagon fitted with a driving cab and two diesel engines under the floor driving the truck axles through hydraulic transmissions. It is intended to provide economical distribution of containers within a large urban area.

Network Rail in the UK purchased two of these cars to carry various loads related to track maintenance and inspection. Because it is a standard vehicle, the deck is too high for it to carry standard containers in the UK where the clearances are too small compared to Germany. It can carry palletised loads, such as timber, as long as they fit the limited British profile. Hence the term "swapbody" used in Europe for intermodal equipment of less than container size.

We have one set in container service in Australia, where the power cars can carry two 20' boxes and they are normally used with other container wagons fitted with multiple unit cables. It hasn't found a real niche just yet, but the owners are still trying.

M636C

I'm a little bit confused:The swap body diesel car has it's own engines and cab? I didn't see them on the links provided, or maybe I didn't know what I was looking for?

Thanks

[Anonymous]

Probably the best way to picture these would be a container flatcar, with an angular cab on one end and a couple of engines fitted under the floor. I think the German version used Volvo truck engines though I may be wrong. Basically it's a freight equivelent of the old Budd RDC.

Regarding the modernisation plan, I always believed it was a case of BR spending money badly - they bought all manner of diesel locos, some of which had appalling reliability records. At the same time, they retired steam locos that were barely run in and had years of useful life left. Again, I may be wrong - this is just how it appears to me from what I've read!

[Murphy Siding]

So the freight equivelant of an old Budd RDC would be able to operate singly and in multiple units? If I perceive this correctly, Each unit has 2 motors, so 6 units M.U.ed together would have 12 motors, but only 1 engineer?

Thanks

[Murphy Siding]

Guys: I re-read some of the posts above and ran accross something else that doesn't register. What is a "sprinter"?

thanks

[Anonymous]

OK. Here is my precis - tho other posters will of course have their own interpretation which is equally valid.

The Modernization Plan - this in essence extends back to the grouping of 1923 into the Big Four; the Government then basically capped the rates which the railways could charge. After the war and nationalisation the system was basically run on string so the govt of the time reorganised the transport system (again). One spin off was the British Railways Board and lo - they were charged with producing an investment plan which would modernise the railways and create a vibrant public service. Which the treasury would pay for. SO, this plan appeared. And to say the least it was entertaining in that "blue sky" thinking was prevalent and not a lot else. Basically the railways asked for a lot of locomotives, new track, lots of electrification and all sorts of other gubbins and in return the railways faithfully promised that there would no more deficits. This of course proved to be slightly erroneous. Anyway, a few years later and tired of the groaning deficits which the railways were clocking up the Govt brought in Dr Richard Beeching from ICI on a whopping salary who produced "The Re-shaping of British Railways". This was a report which called for inter alia, a lot of cuts and closures. SO therefore known as the Beeching Axe; Beeching Cuts. A Lot of the railway
was cut. And some of it is now being put back at great expense.Hehehehehe.

A sprinter is basically a light weight DMU train of two(or three carriages) which can be coupled to others. They were bought in to reduce operating costs on the provincial services by replacing the locomotive/ carriage fleet. The are relatively easy to maintain; easier to move when failed; produce less track wear and are more flexible. Think of a bus on wheels. And actually; they are pretty hardy.

As for frieght flows. Ah. You can run flows economically for 10 miles if you are hauling heavy tonnages and dont forget that in the tight and crowded island which we reside land is at a premium so the road netweork cannot grow exponentially to remove bottlenecks. Therefore congestion is one of rails great friends. The haul which some refer to is 6S55 the Burngullow to Irvine Slurry Tank Train. Taking china clay up to Scotland for processing into various bits and pieces.

[Anonymous]

I think the term "Sprinter" came from Holland - they were apparently the first to use it. Over here it refers to a second generation diesel railcar (these were built from the '80s onwards to replace the old first generation or Heritage DMUs, many of which have found new homes with preservation groups. The 1st generation units are the type shown on the www.railcar.co.uk website). In my experience of sprinters the ride quality and seating is far worse than the units they replaced...(rode a Class 153 recently - they don't seem designed for tall people as I felt rather like a deckchair by the end!)

[Murphy Siding]

Thanks for the info and links! Most pictures show locomotives as, for example: a Class 37, or a Class 101. Do the class numbers mean anything significant ? And who picked out the names/numbers? It seems a little more *classy* to be talking about Deltics,Castles or Coronations to me.

Thanks

[Anonymous]

The class numbers were assigned under the "TOPS" computer system (it's an acronym but I'm not sure what it stands for) - before this locos were assigned numbers deriving from their HP output (I think - not sure about this as some powerful locos got low numbers). Diesels had a D prefix, electrics an E prefix. Hence you have D8000 (the first loco of what became Class 20). The nicknames derive from a variety of sources - "Deltic" comes from the design of their powerplants, "Castle" class steamers were mostly named after castles, "Warship" class diesel-hydraulics were named after Royal Navy ships. Class numbers seem to be assigned with some care (for example, electric locos tend to be from the 70s up to the low 90s, "97" was used for locos handed over to the R&D department, DMU sets tend to be in the 100s, etc).

[Anonymous]

hi the company that owns the track provide the the contral tower staff and the track maintance staff and the p[eople who owns the trains provide the rest it sometimes works and sometimes doesnt.it is get better as i work for the company that owns the track and it does sometimes fall apart when we have something go wrong.Like were i work we had someone hit by a train and other delayes by singal and other promblems but this soon get sort as we run small trains than u do in america

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by scjoines

hi the company that owns the track provide the the contral tower staff and the track maintance staff and the p[eople who owns the trains provide the rest it sometimes works and sometimes doesnt.it is get better as i work for the company that owns the track and it does sometimes fall apart when we have something go wrong.Like were i work we had someone hit by a train and other delayes by singal and other promblems but this soon get sort as we run small trains than u do in america

Scjoines: Welcome! You work for a company that owns tracks? What do you do there?
Thanks

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Railroading_Brit

The class numbers were assigned under the "TOPS" computer system (it's an acronym but I'm not sure what it stands for) - before this locos were assigned numbers deriving from their HP output (I think - not sure about this as some powerful locos got low numbers). Diesels had a D prefix, electrics an E prefix. Hence you have D8000 (the first loco of what became Class 20). The nicknames derive from a variety of sources - "Deltic" comes from the design of their powerplants, "Castle" class steamers were mostly named after castles, "Warship" class diesel-hydraulics were named after Royal Navy ships. Class numbers seem to be assigned with some care (for example, electric locos tend to be from the 70s up to the low 90s, "97" was used for locos handed over to the R&D department, DMU sets tend to be in the 100s, etc).

Sounds like the numbering system was put in place to make it easier on the accounting staff?[;)]

Thanks

[Anonymous]

TOPS - Total Operation Processing system. First introduced 1973. Bought from one of the American RR/s of the time (Southern Pacific I think...could be wrong so please advise). Green Screen Computer system. About 7 people left on the planet who know how to programme it.

Reason why it is still here - COZ IT WORKS. How many of us had so called "upgrades" which crash constantly..........