Has a GG1 ever been restored to running order?

[motor]

I was at the train station in Matawan NJ when it departed on it last trip.

My son said there is one at the RR Museum of Penn in Strasburg PE. He sent me a T-shirt from their with the GG-1 on it in PRR colors.
[

 

There is.  I saw it when I visited the RRMofPA 18 months ago.

My first AMTK ride (PHL to NYP in 1973) was pulled by a black GG1 with Penn Central markings.

motor

[zugmann]

There are 2 at the PRR museum in Strassburg.  One is inside and is really nice.  The other is outside and is rusting quietly.

There's 3 if you count the one they own at the Harrisburg Amtrak station.  But I hear the 4800 is getting a new coat of paint, and one of them is getting a fixed and repainted interior.  (I think 4935, but don't quote me)

Now, can we find a home for the two at Cooperstown Jct? 

[alphas]

I saw thousands of trains being hauled by them in my time.   I preferred the solid yellow stripe Pennsy went to rather than the original.   The solid stripe really brought out the colors in the keystone design and definitely got your attention.   Whoever had them changed to the Penn Central worms design should have been required to spend the rest of their life cleaning up the graffiti on all railroad equipment.

[penncentral2002]

Although it would be wonderful to see a GG1 running again, I'd just settle for seeing some of the preserved GG1's getting at least comestic restorations.  For example, the one at the Virginia Museum of Transportation would look great with a fresh coat of paint.  The B&O Museum should realize how many people on their train rides comment on the GG1 there - maybe they would treat it better then if they realized how popular it was (especially given its unique history).  Would love to see it restored (if only comestically) and put on display at Union Station!

[kevikens]

God alone knows how many GG1 s I rode behind or paced along side US route 13 in my father's car (yes you could get that Nash Ambassador up over 90mph). I always thought that the G was the locomotive that won WW II for the US. Considering how much wartime traffic was carried by the Pennsy and how much of that traffic wound up on the electrified lines of  Eastern ports  for overseas shipment I can imagine no single locomotive that did as much for the war effort. In addition to all that critical freight think of all the military and government personnel who moved on that Washington NYC corridor almost always pulled along by a G. The Pennsy worked those motors almost to death. They could and did haul enormous passenger and freight consists day in and day out with the sparsest of maintenance. Nothing seemed capable of  halting the GG1 ( ok, the occasional fine snow flake could short them out) until the DEP was created. They could easily excede their rated horsepower and could move a lot faster than the PRR would ever like to publically admit. I don't know if any of your readers ever heard this story but as I got it there was an engineer working for NJT on the North Coast Line where the last G's served out their final years in the early 1980's. He was undoubtedly as close to retirement as his former pennsy motor because he and his engine went out in a blaze of glory. As the G hauled commuter train joined the NEC near Rahway it encountered a NYC bound clocker pulled by one of the new AEM 7's easily doing 100mph plus. I guess the old guy wanted to show that Swedish meatball what the old girl could do and opened her up. The two drew along side each other and the G stayed with the AEM 7 all the way through Elizabeth to Newark. Shortly after this both the engine and engineer ended long distinguished careers. In my mind the Pennsy and the GG1 are forever linked as the railroad and locomotive that made the rail industry the major means of moving people and goods in the mid 20th Century America. As for restoring one to running condition there is a gentleman named Bennet Levin who beautifully restored two former PRR E8s that have run excursions of PRR varnish here in the Northeast. He owns a rail car rebuilding plant that sits right along side the NEC in Philly, the Juniata Terminal. If anybody could restore a GG1 it would be this person. I wish I could persuade him to try. Anyway I nominate the GG1 as the most significant locomotive to ever move a train in America and if any locomotive deserves to rise from the scap heap and run again it's the G.

[Anonymous]

art11758, I think that you have seen one of the rotary converters which is usually a 60Hz polyphase motor driving an alternator with different pole pairs so a frequency change can be obtained.

The lower frequencies, especially in the early French, German and Swiss days were, because a low frequency AC motor has less sparking then the conventional AC motor running at 50 or 60 Hz.

DC was mostly used before and experiments were done with laminated steel in AC motors but sparking at the brushes caused extra stress and premature insulation breakdown which was somewhat reduced with the lower frequency.

In Europe 15 kV 16 2/3 Hz was and is still used in Germany, Switzerland, Austria, and parts of Norway, also with rotary motor alternator sets although in switzerland certain hydro stations provided the 15 kV 16 2/3 Hz for the railways I believe.

Some may have been replaced with solid state.

France has gone to 25 kV  50 Hz while Italy, Belgium have 3 kV DC and The Netherlands 1500 V DC.

The GG1 was a fantastic locomotive, unfortunately i have never seen one at work but read about these masters of engineering with amazing high power output and reliability.

It would be fantastic to see one in working order although the costs and manhours are probably prohibitive to realise it.

 

edited for typo's

[NATEDAGR8]

I agree, a new tranformer is the big problem, however, GE could probably scrape up a comparable transformer for it.

[BaltACD]

NATEDAGR8

I agree, a new tranformer is the big problem, however, GE could probably scrape up a comparable transformer for it.

Fund it and it will get built.  No funds, no build.

[samfp1943]

BaltACD

 NATEDAGR8

I agree, a new tranformer is the big problem, however, GE could probably scrape up a comparable transformer for it.

 

Fund it and it will get built.  No funds, no build.

 

 

SPOT ON, BaltACD1

 

Reading the comments on just this Thread alone.... Might not the History, of the Pennsy's GG-1's, and  their subject matter; be fodder for a 'new' Kalmbach publication/booK?  Just a thought! 

[Overmod]

Kalmbach already did the GG1 exhaustively enough, many years ago now: remember that layered exploded-view drawing that was so good?  And before that, the founder of my high-school railroad club, Karl Zimmermann, wrote a better book on the GG1 than anyone currently at Kalmbach could even approximate.

You could add a couple of pages to update things to 2020, but there is precious little of positive interest to add...

[tree68]

One of the two GG1s at Cooperstown was rumored to be headed to Michigan and the Henry Ford (museum).  To my knowledge, even that hasn't happened.

[zugmann]

tree68

One of the two GG1s at Cooperstown was rumored to be headed to Michigan and the Henry Ford (museum).  To my knowledge, even that hasn't happened.

Was that the one that was supposed to go to FLorida, or was that the other one?  Will they be scrapped or rust away into nothing first? 

[tree68]

zugmann

Was that the one that was supposed to go to FLorida, or was that the other one?  Will they be scrapped or rust away into nothing first?

Dunno - I'm working from social media reports on this one.

There's one in Syracuse which is being kept up at least cosmetically.

[zugmann]

There's enoguh GG1s preserved, so even as a fan I'd rather see efforts go to thing like dash-7s, dash-8s, dash-9s, -- well pretty much anything built after 1950. 

[tree68]

zugmann

There's enoguh GG1s preserved, so even as a fan I'd rather see efforts go to thing like dash-7s, dash-8s, dash-9s, -- well pretty much anything built after 1950. 

One might opine that the reason so many GG1s were "preserved" was because they are environmental disasters waiting to happen, if you will.  

[Flintlock76]

tree68

One might opine that the reason so many GG1s were "preserved" was because they are environmental disasters waiting to happen, if you will.  

That's entirely possible, but another reason could be they were lucky enough to survive into the preservation era and had homes waiting for them when they were retired.

I don't remember when this happened, but I recall reading the PRR did a study sometime in the post-war era where they considered ending electric operations and going completely with diesel power.  In the end they decided against it, but if they ended electric operations, say in the early 50's, there might not have been any GG1's preserved at all.   They'd have been as extinct as the T1's.

[Electroliner 1935]

My concept would be to take a transformer from an AE-7 and redesign the power modules to provide single phase 25 Hz output. Motors would not have to be rewound, just cleaned.

Whether this is feasible and could be funded is beyond my pay grade. 

Also, mentioning T-1s. I have never forgotten seeing over 20 dead T-1s awaiting the torch in Columbus OH on a Cincinnati Railroad Club fan trip. What a sad sight. 

We did see J-1s in service for the coal to Sandusky and in ’56 I saw the Santa Fe “Texas” class 2-10-4s and PRR J-1s when I went to Worthington OH. They were BIG. Not as big as a Big Boy but they were notable. YOUTUBE has a video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5zOCNNw6t0

  

[54light15]

GG1s in Syracuse, Cooperstown and maybe Dearborn? That sounds kind of odd to me that they would be preserved in areas that never had them when they were active. Along the NEC, sure. It would be nice to see one run again. 

[tree68]

54light15

GG1s in Syracuse, Cooperstown and maybe Dearborn? That sounds kind of odd to me that they would be preserved in areas that never had them when they were active. Along the NEC, sure. It would be nice to see one run again. 

Many locomotives are preserved in areas they never served.  While C&O ran in MI, I doubt the Alleghany in the Henry Ford ever ran there.  I would presume the effort would be a reflection of the technology, as opposed to a reflection of what ran in MI.  There are a number of locomotives in the museum as well as the adjoining Greenfield Village. https://www.thehenryford.org/visit/henry-ford-museum/exhibits/railroads.

The GG1 in Syracuse is property of the Central New York Railroad Historical Society.

I'm not sure who owns the Cooperstown locomotives.  Probably the Cooperstown and Charlotte Valley.

Most likely, they were available, cheap, and the railroad at the time was glad to get rid of them...

[MidlandMike]

Wiki has a list of all 16 preserved GG-1's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Railroad_class_GG1#cite_ref-Palmateer_37-0

 

[MidlandMike]

zugmann

There's enoguh GG1s preserved, so even as a fan I'd rather see efforts go to thing like dash-7s, dash-8s, dash-9s, -- well pretty much anything built after 1950. 

 

While 16 GG-1's were preserved, not a single electric loco built for the New Haven was saved.  Only a couple of EF-4's originally built for VGN were saved.  I would loved to have seen an EP-5 saved.  I don't know if it had transformers with PCB, but it did have rectifiers with Mercury.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/alcomike/20129122985/sizes/l/

 

[daveklepper]

Electroliner, 25Hz-commutator motors can run on DC just as efficiently as they can on 25Hz AC.

No reason a GG1 could not be rebuilt as a regular rectifier locomtive, with its original motors, using standard, off-the-shelf equipment, and have its full horsepower and tractive effort capabilities.

With the appropriate transformer, it could run on 25Hz. 50Hz. or 60Hz, 12,000 (11.000 - 12,500) or 25,000 volts.  With some additional equipment, it could even be equipped with third-rail shoes and run on 600 or 750V DC.

 

[BaltACD]

daveklepper

Electroliner, 25Hz-commutator motors can run on DC just as efficiently as they can on 25Hz AC.

No reason a GG1 could not be rebuilt as a regular rectifier locomtive, with its original motors, using standard, off-the-shelf equipment, and have its full horsepower and tractive effort capabilities.

With the appropriate transformer, it could run on 25Hz. 50Hz. or 60Hz, 12,000 (11.000 - 12,500) or 25,000 volts.  With some additional equipment, it could even be equipped with third-rail shoes and run on 600 or 750V DC.

Money, Money, Money - who has the money to make it happen?

[charlie hebdo]

Electroliner 1935

My concept would be to take a transformer from an AE-7 and redesign the power modules to provide single phase 25 Hz output. Motors would not have to be rewound, just cleaned.

Whether this is feasible and could be funded is beyond my pay grade. 

Also, mentioning T-1s. I have never forgotten seeing over 20 dead T-1s awaiting the torch in Columbus OH on a Cincinnati Railroad Club fan trip. What a sad sight. 

We did see J-1s in service for the coal to Sandusky and in ’56 I saw the Santa Fe “Texas” class 2-10-4s and PRR J-1s when I went to Worthington OH. They were BIG. Not as big as a Big Boy but they were notable. YOUTUBE has a video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5zOCNNw6t0

  

 

But where could it run?  Those few stretches of electrification aren't likely to allow it. 

[Electroliner 1935]

charlie hebdo

But where could it run?  Those few stretches of electrification aren't likely to allow it. 

So true. No cat except on AMTRAK and I doubt they would touch it. I was supprised when they took IRM's Nebraska Zephyr. Which performed flawlessly and magnificently.

[Erik_Mag]

daveklepper

Electroliner, 25Hz-commutator motors can run on DC just as efficiently as they can on 25Hz AC.

For the appropriate AC commutator motor, they will run even more efficiently on DC than AC. There are some AC commutator motors that are fed via a field winding (equivalent to a transformer) where commutator is either shorted or connected to another field winding. IIRC, the motors for the initial MU cars used in Philly had such motors, but IIRC the GG1's motor were fed through the commutator and thus could run on DC.

[tree68]

If one was serious about getting a GG1 (or any such preserved electric) actually running, I should think it wouldn't be difficult to build a mobile power source (ie, generator in a boxcar or maybe a baggage car) to make the locomotive run.  

Perhaps it would even be possible to build an ersatz catenary so the power came through the pantographs.

Anything is possible if you have the money...

[Falcon48]

Anonymous

I heard a rumor that someone had sequestered a GG-1 at the Illinois Railway Museum in Union, IL.

Sounds pretty tall to me, but then stranger things have happened at Union.....in a delightful way.

 

I'm a long time member of IRM.  IRM owns a GG1 which is on static display.  To my knowledge, there are no plans to restore it to operating condition, nor could it be operated on IRM's rail line or anywhere else in the midwest. I'm not sure what is meant by the term "sequestered" in this context.     

[SD70Dude]

tree68

If one was serious about getting a GG1 (or any such preserved electric) actually running, I should think it wouldn't be difficult to build a mobile power source (ie, generator in a boxcar or maybe a baggage car) to make the locomotive run.  

Perhaps it would even be possible to build an ersatz catenary so the power came through the pantographs.

Anything is possible if you have the money...

IRM runs their 'Little Joe' on the same 600vDC overhead power supply that is used by all their interurbans and streetcars, perhaps it would be possible to do something similar to a GG1 if one absolutely wanted to move it under its own power. 

Of course, such a conversion would likely result in a neutered shell of the former beast that would have nowhere near the pulling power of the original design.

As for the idea of a towable genset, I'd look into what SP/UP and BNSF have done with those 'snails' that power their rotary snowplows.

[tree68]

SD70Dude

As for the idea of a towable genset, I'd look into what SP/UP and BNSF have done with those 'snails' that power their rotary snowplows.

Or any mother/slug set, for that matter...