Funny: I don't FEEL like a criminal

[dknelson]

THE FOLLOWING SCRIPT REPRESENTS AN INTERROGATION BY A UNIFORMED OFFICER OF THE GOVERNMENT OF A SUSPECTED "TERRORIST" AS NOW REDEFINED BY THAT GOVERNMENT.

Yes officer I am watching trains. Why? Well, if you go to the airport you'll see people watching airplanes and if you go to the docks you will see people watching ships. No different. Oh. You are asking them too?
No I am not the only person who does this. Here are copies of several national magazines for people who watch trains. Yes officer they are published in Wisconsin or New Jersey or other places in the USA, not in Yemen or Iraq. This card in my wallet shows that I belong to an organization intereted in this particular railroad or in railroads in general. No I did not print this on my computer officer, this is a real organization. Here is their address and website. They are registered with the government as 501(c)(3) organizations in fact.
Yes officer I do take photographs and I note the number of the locomotives and keep notes. There are books published with the numbers of the locomotives and I own those books. they are not a secret of the railroad. They paint the number right on the side of the cab. Yes officer I sometimes photograph freight cars if they are interesting to me. Yes officer cars with military loads would be interesting to me. So would a load of farm machinery. You are correct this is a very long distance lens.
Yes officer I have been watching trains here for the last 20 years, and in fact I have often waved to you as you drive by and you have waved back. It is rare for me to be the only person here who watches trains. There have been photos published in national magazines that were taken here and a national magazine article described this as a "hot spot" and recommended others come here to watch trains. I am sure the railroad is aware of this, yes officer. They published a photo taken here in their annual calendar a few years ago. No I did not ask their permission -- I am standing on a public sidewalk and did not think I needed to ask anyones permission. Do I?
Yes officer this is a scanner. I listen to hear the dispatcher talk to the trains and vice versa. Yes officer I can also hear the railroad police from time to time. How did I learn what channel to program to hear these trains? Well there are books at the hobby shop and at the public library that give all the railroad channels in the country, and national magazines also publi***he channels. In fact some railroad's own websites give the channels. They are not a secret. They are public knowledge. Yes officer -- I can also listen to trains on the scanner when I am at home, just like with police or fire scanners. Oh really? Is yours a Uniden too? Neat.
Yes officer I do know when many of the trains are going to pass by here, often almost to the minute. Yes that includes the passenger trains. Amtrak publishes a schedule you see, with all the times. Yes officer, even if the trains are late -- Amtrak will tell you the time on the internet or on an 800 number. Anyone can call. Yes I do have an employee timetable for the freight trains. This particular one was sold to me by the railroad we are standing near but I have also received them from employees. But even without a timetable I would often know when a train is due based on looking down the track and seeing that green signal. Yes officer: the green signal means a train is coming. Anyone with eyes or a pair of bicoculars can see it. I also know when listening to the scanner. Well officer the railroad has intalled equipment that has a computer voice talk on the scanner when a train goes by. Anyone with a scanner can hear.
No officer I do not throw rocks at trains nor do I try to derail them. You can ask the crews on this railroad if they have ever seen me do anything but take pictures or wave at them. They almost always wave back. Sometimes they talk to me when they see I have a scanner. I think they would know me by sight. What? They reported me? Why? Some of them know me by name! What? Their employer demanded that they report me as suspicious for doing the same thing I have been doing for decades? Seems to me it would be more suspicious if I suddenly stopped watching trains! No officer I did not intend to make a wise remark.
You are going to WHAT? Take me WHERE? What have I done that is illegal? What law says this is illegal? I demand to talk to a lawyer! Well OK -- if you're going to point a gun at me like that, sure I'll come along peacefully.

[Saxman]

What is it FDR said, "We have nothing to fear but fear itself." Also who said: "We have seen the enemy and it is us?" Both would seem to fit here.

[Anonymous]

Better safe than sorry! Pictures of U.S. trains and locomotives were found with other terrorists' paraphanalia. Somehow, I don't believe these people are railfans on their days off.

[Anonymous]

I like to take pictures of old buildings that in my opinion have a significant architectural beauty. Many train depots and stations meet this criteria, not to mention federal and county courthouses across the country,

A couple of months ago in Lawton, Oklahoma, a federal security guard allowed me to take picuters of downtown Lawton's mall, its Lawtonian hotel, the county courthouse, the city hall, but when I turned my camera to the beautiful federal courthouse there, the security guard threatened to arrest me and take my camera even though I was on city's public property. It must be a sign of the times, but I did not take that picture.

[eolafan]

Yes, you hit it right on the head, this is a sign of the times we live in. With no disrespect meant at all to anyone, but with a liberal dose of realism thrown in, if the original post was representative of a real conversation between a railfan and a police officer, the "smart ***" sarcastic remarks of the railfan would land him/her in trouble, and with no surprise at all. Again, sign of the times.

[edblysard]

I railroad for a living, and you guys can take photos of me and my consist anytime. If we allow the terrorist to curtail our civil liberities, the right to travel to, be present at, or photograph public building & places then they have allready succeded in destroying the very thing we are fighting to save. They have turned us into them. I for one dont want to have to carry national ID, or be required to "show my papers" when I go from Texas to New Mexico. One of the most sacred of our rights, the need for police to have just cause to stop or detain a person is what allows you to drive to work, sit in the park or take a date out to eat without being stopped or interogated randomly. It seems like common sense has fled the land. And yes, I am a railfan too. I like watching trains, if you didnt like the same, and want to be able to do so freely, what are you doing reading this? Do you think "big brother" should be allowed to tap you dsl connection or phone link just because you read about trains?

[Anonymous]

If the railroads look at us as a threat, rather than an asset to their security, that is their problem. In my 20-plus years of being trackside, I have reported several situations to the RR that could have ended up in disaster, had I not intervened. One such instance sticks out in my mind. I was at Schoolcraft, Michigan years ago, In the evening. When I arrived at the depot I walked around to the diamond, as I normally would do. When I got to the diamond, I noticed about 6 inches of the rail missing next to the frog. There was a RR phone box right at the diamond, it wasn't locked, so I picked up the phone and got the dispatcher. I told him of the situation, and he said that he would notify the approaching train. The train showed up, stopped, and the crew got down and looked things over. They thanked me profusely, saying that if they had hit that at track speed, they would probably have dumped them. More chatter on the radio followed, and after some decision-making on the other end, the train proceeded across the diamond at walking speed. Everybody was happy that night. But, to my amazement, the next time I visited Schoolcraft a few weeks later, the phone box was securely locked. If I had seen another problem then, it would have meant a long walk to a pay-phone, and assuming I could get the appropriate number from information, waiting on hold, etc, etc......
RAILROAD OFFICIALS, we are your allies, not your foes. With the demise of trackside employees, such as tower operators, station agents, etc. We are your "Eyes". Please don't treat us as criminals.
Todd C.

[dknelson]

The script is pure fiction and I am sorry I did not make this clearer. My point to the "sarcastic" answers was, all this sudden realization by "authorities" that, gee, we know where trains are, we know how to listen to them, we know when they are coming, we know what the loads are and what the engine numbers are ----- there is an entire industry devoted to telling railfans all of this stuff! It doesn't take spying! The authorities are standing around gaping at the railfan world as if it just hatched from an egg!

[eolafan]

Although we realize that this story was done "tongue in cheek" the sad fact of the matter is that this is the world we live in today. The "enemy" looks like anybody else, does not wear a uniform, waves no distinct flag and sings no national songs. In WWII we had Hitler, Tojo and Mussolini, today we have Bin Laden and Hussein but they are only figure heads of a terrorist organization infrastructure that is faceless and nameless. Small wonder our government and even the railroads are running scared, and dare I say pananoid?

[GerFust]

It is amazing how old tenets of the law are discarded. If it truly is a illegal, then it violates the old standard that 'it's not an invasion of privacy if anyone on a public sidewalk can look into your bedroom.' Standing in a public place and looking around shouldn't be an issue.

Also, although I am sure terrorists watch trains too, chances are the actual evil deed they would do wouldn't likely be at a public train watching spot. For that matter, they probably watch from the bushes, not out in the open.

Sure, we all wince when authorities miss the obvious signs of trouble, but some common sense needs to be mixed in - like, no train watching at power plants or under bridges, for instance!

[Anonymous]

The gov't and rr's may be paranoid and/or running scared, but I'm with Ed Houston - if we ever get where we can't be on public property to stand and watch/and or photograph what we love then the enemy has already won and there's nothing to fight for. I DO NOT plan for any terrorist(s) to interfere with what i've spent my life doing (watching, not photo'ing)

[wabash1]

how do you know what a trains cargo is. i never know what i have til i look at the wheel report.

[Anonymous]

We have all lost something on 9/11, some much more than others. We also lost something with the Kennedy assassination and the attack on Pearl Harbor. Then as now we have to accomodate the loss of some freedom to ensure our continued way of life. Think you've lost some freedom of movement, have you been through an airport lately? Photography by rail enthusiasts is, at best, frivilous except to those who are doing so for their careers. To criticize through sarcastic remarks and fiction does a disservice to the law enforcement people who, on any given day, would give their lives for you. If I have to identify myself to an officer, I will do so gladly and be grateful he or she is there. Shame and double on all of you who whine that you are "inconvenienced" by this precaution.

[eolafan]

ALL I CAN SAY TO YOUR COMMENT IS...AMEN!

[edblysard]

You know, my dad was at Pearl, and ended up in the occupation force in Japan. Funny, he never gave up his belief that this was the best country in the world to live in. He should know, an immigrants son, first in his family to become a citizen by birth. Both he and his brother served, WWII, Korea and Vietnam.
You would think someone who spent his entire adult life in uniform would be bullish on this homelane security stuff. But he pointed out that the ***, and the Japanese military both came to power because the population of those countries allowed them to. Homeland, Fatherland, sound sorta alike? The constitution states, no bones about it, that our goverment is to be headed by a president elected by the citizenry, not one appointed by the military. A civilian is the comander in chief for a reason. The average german civilan sat by, too scared to do anything, while millions were killed in the name of fatherland security.By the time they realized what was happening, it was too late. I know, because my grandfathers brother died there. I am a american by birth, of german descent. I belive you, or anyone else has a right to go anywhere in this country you chose to, by whatever means you want to. If he wants to take pictures of trains from a public place, well, it called a public place for a resaon. We live in a open society by choice, and yes, there will be more Pearl Harbors, more Kennedys assinated, and more Sept. 11s. That is the price we pay to live free. Free of national IDs, free of random interogation by the "state" police, free to take pictures of trains, or not to take pictures. Free to log onto a forum where you can express your point of view and not worry that the NGK, or the KGB, SS or FBI will be knocking on your door in the next few minutes because you wrote something that "seems" suspicious. Iv been to South Africa, and to Russia, where you need a permit to fart, and I couldnt beat feet fast enought to get out of there and back home, where I can say the president sucks and not get shot for it.
Remember, this country was formed by a revolution, against our legal, lawful king.
But, based in part on the fact that we won, we decided that the rights of the individual come before the rights of the state. So you have the right to want to be confronted by a cop, and he has the right to expect the cop to leave him alone as long as he isnt tresspassing, or breaking the law.
And speaking of sarcastic remarks, so his hobby of photographying trains is "frivilous" while your hobby isnt? Dont you get it? He has the right to persue his "frivilous" hobby as much as you have the right to persue your "serious" hobby. The same law that protects you and your freedoms protect him. Unless of course, your somehow better that he is, that your beliefs are more valid, more important or more real than his. Which is exactly why Pearl Harbor, the Holocaust and 9/11 happened in the first place.
Dont get me wrong, I belive in the law, and have nothing but respect for any law enforcement officer, the guys and girls behind the badge see, and deal with crap that would haunt most of us to our graves. But laws without representation or recourse? Curtailment of your civil liberities? Absolute authority in a national police force? Places off limits because of National Security? Theres a name for places like that. Concentration camp. Theres a name for people like that. ***. Dont think it can happen here and now? Go to the Israeli/ Palestinian border and just stand still for a minute. Dont know about you, but I dont intend to hide, I dont intend to sit silently by while fear destroys the only place in the world where I truly have a choice. "All evil needs to flourish is for good men to sit silently by and do nothing"
I fear its time to chose.

[Anonymous]

Ed, thank you for your remarks. You make many valid observations, but the fact is, this country is at war. A war that is far more incidious than anything we have seen before. Such conditions warrant extraordinary measures. During WWII, and this is just as much a threat, many freedoms we all take for granted were altered or suspended. Gasoline was rationed, blackouts were constantly employed and we didn't have the advanced media technology to tell us what was going on.
Ed, most hobbies are frivilous and I have taken as many railroad photos as many others who visit this site. So are my other hobbies frivilous, but if a small sacrafice in any of them will help us all, consider it done. Cooperating with law enforcement can not, under any circumstance, be compared Teutonic states, barbaric dictators, weakness or ambivilence. On this point, we sharply disagree. Your mention of a comparison with *** is over the line.
I have read other of your posts and conclude that you are probably a good railroader. I've been on both sides of your concerns there too...but that's another issue. Hope you have a good and safe day. God bless you and yours this Thanksgiving. gdc

[GerFust]

I will gladly identify myself to any police officer that asks for ID as well. And, yes, I have been through airports recently.

The point is, searching passengers boarding airplanes is a sensible activity to catch the bad guys. Questioning photographers at popular train watching spots or historic landmarks is not likely to be very productive.

There is a balance between caution and paranoia - it is called common sense.

[edblysard]

Sorry,I didnt intend to compare you to the ***. And yes, co-operation with police is a good pratice to follow. But when we allow our elected representives to suspend some of our rights? And when did congress declare war on anyone. What has happened is a vague refrence to a "war on terrorism". How do you fight a war with a political ideal?And yes, in WWII technology was crude. So blackouts made sense. How about the rounding up of the american born Japanese?
Would you advocate rounding up all the Muslims in this country? We could ship em all of to New Jeresy. That ought to be punishment enought.
When congress declares war on a particular country, or a well defined group of people, then I will back it up 100%. And a big diffirence between then and now is then, the only info the general populace ever heard was what the "war dept" released. Censorship was allowed, even encouraged. There is a big diffrence in coperating with a law enforcement officer who is enforcing and following the law, and one who, by proxie, is exceeding the law. But your right about one thing, argue with or get lippy with a cop, and you are treading on slippery ground. But if you dont watch your goverment, who will? To blindly trust those in power to do the right thing can lead to some scary things. Is your hobby frivilous? Well, the people who publish and host this site seem to take it serious. Would you really feel comfortable living in a society where hobbies are forbidden?, Whats next? What if your living was dependant on that hobby. Could O. Winston Link have become so popular in that society?
The constitution give the president certain powers, but only if a formal declaration of war exsist and is received from the congress. He has limited descretionary powers to impose certain restrictions. If we are going to war, then lets do it under the laws we cherish. If yer gonna go, the go, fast, and carry a big stick. If we arnt, then give the NSA and the CIA an extra few million, and tell them to sic-em.
I love the fact that I can stand in my front yard and wave the flag from my dads coffin, and I love the fact that my neighbor across the street goes to a mosque, and kneels facing east every sunset. Its his right to do so, just like mine to wave the stars and stripes . Do we dissagree on some things? You bet, thats allowed here. Would he move back home? You bet your life he wont. This is the only place he has found that allows such a diversity of faiths, jobs and freedoms. And by the way, even if you and I dont agree on somethings, I would fight tooth and nail for your right to disagree with me.
Hope you and yours have a safe thanksgiving too!
Shalom'

[wabash1]

for all the long winded responses and all the hype being put out you think you guys was running for office. The just of the matter is that the railroads have put out memos and it goes like this, you are reminded to report any unusual or suspicious activity observed on or near the railroad right of way by the quickest means availble. now if you are standing at crossing at grade taking pictures (railroaders dont like their pictures taken). you will be reported. so no matter what you want to complain about remeber the people you insult on here may be the ones that are turning you in out there. railroads own plenty of ground around the main lines that may be used for other things now but are still owned by the railroad. and if you are on this property you are trespassing. there is a stretch of land that people come out and hunt on. they think its part of the farmers land they hunt when in reality its railroad property. and are delt with accordingly.

[corwinda]

The cargo referred to in the piece was equipment on flatcars. Of course a lot of tank cars are labelled for the material they carry. Or there are hazardous materials placards ...

[RudyRockvilleMD]

You must have read Don Phillips' article "Wronged Side of the Tracks" which made the front page of the November 15, 2002 Washington Post (Thursday November 14 was probably a slow news day in Washington or the rest of this country.)

To bring those who didn't read it up to speed Don Phillips is a railfan, business writer for the Washington Post, and he writes a column in Trains called "The Potomac Pundit."

He reported on two events. In one case a railfan who is employed by the Arlington, TX Police Department which watching trains at Tower 55 in Fort Worth, TX one weekend when two Police Cruisers pulled up, and took him in to the local precinct station where he was held for several hours, questioned by the police and the FBI, and finally released. The other incident concerned a railfan who was photographing a train from an embankment on public property when the train's engineer go out of the engine, ran up the embankment, and yelled at the railfan not to photograph his train.

My take on this article is he showed extreme examples of overreaction concerning railfans watching or photographing trains. but what is important this hysteria or paranoia is not new. The same thing occurred during the early days of the Korean war so this will pass with the passage of time; after all they can't keep a lockdown forever.

As far as I know unless the Patriot Act of 2001 or the recently passed Homeland Security Bill say otherwise, there are no laws prohibiting anybody from photographing trains from private property with the owner's permission, or phtographing trains from public property provided there is no identifiable strategic or military facility (e.g. a military base, a defense plant, or a nuclear power plant) in the background, you are not a hazard to yourself or to others, and you are not a nuisance.

The important points are:
1. The photo archives of most railfan media have
plenty of copies of the same photo you are
taking.
2. With satellite imagery today plenty of
copies, and probably better copies, of the
same photo you are taking exist.

Having said this the question is, what should railfans do who are innocently and safely watching or photographing trains trains from public property in the remote chance they may be accosted by a police officer? In most cases if you are on public property, and out of harm's way the police will ignore you. But, in the remote chance you are accosted I would tell the police officer what you are doing, and it is your hobby in as few words as possible. And if told to leave, even if no reason is given, I would leave. However, I would try to take note of the officer's badge number or name plate, and I would write a letter to that jurisdiction's chief of police with the facts of the encounter, and I would tell him/her what you are doing is perfectly legal, and if photos of the area are the concern plenty of them exist, and they are readily available.

What should be done? Should the BNSF or the Union Pacific lean on the city government of Rochelle, IL to close the Railroad Park? Should railfan magazines be forbidden from publishing anything about interesting train watching or photo locations?

As you can see all of this can get silly quickly. Yes we have to be vigilant, but not vigilantees.

[Anonymous]

It's all part of the hottest game in town, played by members of "the wimp network" as a method of self validation.

Once you have a system of self governance in place, what better way to find a warm fuzzy feeling good about yourself than to begin manipulating what is considered criminal behavior?


It's all part of the same deal, "let us eliminate your personal freedoms to that it will be easier to
"protect" you . etc.

With this new "Homeland security" bill passed, it's only a matter of time before cops are pulling us all over looking for evidence of terrorist involvement

[Anonymous]

War was declared on us! I hope your dad and uncle lived long enough to realize the great appreciation most of us have for veterans. God bless them for the sacrafices they made.

[edblysard]

I see the same "old guy" in the same place, taking photos every weekend. He even worked up the nerve to approach us and ask if we could wait a second while he photographed a westinghouse flatcar with one of their huge powerplants on it. The notice we got for our superintendent was to "watch for and report suspicious/unsafe or unusual activity". I even discussed this with the super one time. Was the guy commiting a " suspicious activity"? Well, he has been there just about every weekend for over six years, so I dont think he is. Was he unsafe or unusual?. He never set foot on RR property, never tried to get to close to the tracks or equipment. Our switching main is just a few feet from a major road and a lot of parking areas.Unusual? well, unless your a railfan, or a railroader, he might be. But because the super here has allowed us to excerise some common sense, and because all of us have at one time or another encountered fans, we leave him alone to take pictures. I asked him the next time I saw him why he wanted that car and that load? (wondering if I goofed up) and he got tickled to death. Pulls out a small photo album and shows me a bunch of photos of the model he built of it.
Good model too! Rudys point is valid. Find me a mall in just about any city that dosnt have a bookstore in it, or any big city without a hobby shop devoted to trains. You can buy photos of every car made, draftsman elevations and blueprints of every piece of equipment made. A half good hacker could get into the class1 websites and find a car and cargo if they really wanted to. Ruin the "old guys" fun? Why?

[edblysard]

Try job perpetuation instead of self validation. As long as there are "terrorist" we will need "protection" from them and ourselves.
Before I came railroading I worked in Attorney Generals office of my state. In the child support division. (yeah, I know, Boo, hiss, scum ect) Belive me, the game is played like this. The faster I can get a case off of my desk and out of my caseload and onto someone elses desk and caseload the better. Is the law followed,? Yes. Is "justice" done, sometimes.
Do the people working there really care? No. Its just a job. You may start out idealist, with plans to help out the kids your suppost to work for, but after a few years the stories all sound the same, and it just becomes factory work. Is that the right thing to have happen? No, but thats how it works. Could one person change the system to make it better? Maby. But dont count on it. As long as things keep going the same way, as long as parents fail to pay their child support, the people there will allways have a job.
Homeland security cops? As long as they can show the need, real or otherwise, as long as they can justify their job, and as long as they can convince some of us we need to be protected from our own silly ideas, like civil liberities, then they will exsist.

[edblysard]

Yes, they both did, and both were proud of their services, navy and army air corp, then usaf.
But both were very adament about this. If we are going to be the worlds policeman, shouldnt we police ourselves first? We must hold ourselves up to the highest standards we can, before we apply those standards to others. Are we at war with afganistan? Or are we at war with a bunch of religous fanatics? Can you wage "war" on a religion? And fanatics have a way of popping up in every country for just about every cause.
So if we are going to wage a war on terror, then lets declare war on the country of origin. With our current level of military technology, (much more advanced than tom clancey is allowed to write about) we ought to have their country buttoned up in about a week or two. But only after we follow the laws the constitutional framers wrote. But to blindly follow the political retoric of the "war on terrorism"?
As soon as you can point out the terrorist to me, I will happly help you kick their butt.
But I dont think these guys have "Terror Inc" on their corperate master cards, and last I heard they were not wearing dog tags.
But on a diffrent note, thank you for your kind words. I asked my dad about the sacrafices his generation made in that cause. He suprised me though. He said it wasnt just a sacrafice. Nor was it a duty only. He said it was also an honor.
This thursday, I plan to give thanks not only for this unique country we are lucky to live in, but for all the guys like him, who helped give her the honor he felt so deeply. And I will pray that the men we elected to lead her will honor the principles it was founded on.

[KentinSD]

Where I live, no one notices when you walk around with a high powered rifle or shotgun. This is considered normal here. I once sat next to a road with my .223 Mini-14 automatic carbine, wearing full camo. I was waiting for my buddies to drive coyotes from an adjoining field so I could get a shot. A number of cars and trucks drove by but no one gave me a second look. A week later I returned with my camera to take photos of a nesting hawk at the same location. About a third of the cars/trucks slowed to see what I was doing. Two stopped and asked what I was taking photos of. While they were simply curious, I did think it was funny that a guy sitting next the road with a machine gun drew NO attention, but a guy with a camera on a tripod certainly DID draw attention. LOL!!!! Tell you what though. After reading the comments on this thread, I know for a fact I made the right decision to move from Kansas City 12 years ago to South Dakota. I never see anyone else taking train photos, I've never been hassled, and I can actually walk into the offices of local railroads and get permission to take close up photos that I want. I leave my rifle in my truck though.


Kent in SD

[James35]

A couple of thoughts:

First, my neighborhood has a neighborhood watch. Ordinary citizens keep an eye out for suspicious activity. The police and citizens think it is a great idea. So Ok. Now who's watching the railroads? There's miles of track out there where no employee is on duty, and trains travel miles without a employee visually inspecting the trains. Only last year, I called UP railroad police to report two persons riding in container car about four cars behind the locomotive. The point is the railroads and the police are missing a good oportunity to beef up security. Register me if you want, give me an 800 number to call in case of trouble, I'll stay off railroad property as much as I can since the property line is not always marked, but you are missing something if you are not asking railfans to help.

Second, we are in trouble when citizens are being told not to take photographs. Yes, I have been asked in the past by city police what I doing and both of us deserve and received mutual respect. In this regard, I strongly suggest we start writing to our congressmen and start informing them that railfanning is a peacefull activity and that this info gets cranked into any security doctrine. The average Police officer/FBI agent may not be aware of this hobby. But we need to educate them as quickly as possible.

Third, frivilous hobby? What would our railroad hobby be if there were no records kept/photographs taken during war years? Sorry, there are no photos available from the Civil, Spanish America, WWI, WWII, Korean, Viet Nam, Desert Storm years. And, by the way, your collection may be of great importance to future generations.

Fourth, and yes comman sense is going down the tubes. Here in Vermont we had one judge crying 9/11 security breech when one citizen visitor idly rang the courthouse bell. Bad judgement, perhaps. But terroist attack? With an attitude like that, need I say more?

[wabash1]

So you want some common sense answers. what do you exspect to find on a inspection of a train that has went several miles with out a inspection? If there was no reason for brake applacation then there is nothing that could go wrong that the detector wont catch. The railroads wont give you a 800 number couse that puts them in liability for your well being. its saying they gave you the right to be on property, and what happens to you they haft to pay for.

the next thing is pictures . not only does the crew not want the pictures taken niether does the railroad. reason liability. lets say there is a bridge that has a rotton board. the railroad has been advised of this but nothing ever gets done. then one day someone gets hurt. then the picture shows up. well that shows the railroad at fault and they hate that. on the other hand lets say a crew member was putting hand brakes on from the ground, and you have a picture of it couse you really wanted the car. he is fired couse of the rule violation and evidence to prove it.

common sense went down the tubes when this country went sue happy. it use to be you could go to a farmer and ask permission to hunt his ground and he say yes. now he will chase you from the property. yes there are some foamers that are good people and then the trouble makers. and those are the ones that have made it hard on the good ones. i myself dont want my picture taken while i am doing my job.

[Anonymous]

Unfortunately, there are elements in the world that seek pleasure from denying the rest of us our pleasures. It comes to something that railfans can't watch or photograph trains and stations without being considered a threat. True railfans are a very observant bunch of poeople, and are often best placed to notice things of of the ordinary.

It seems some cultures do not understand the attraction that people have in North America and Western Europe to various items (take, for example, the case of the British Aircraft spotters in Greece - a country which is a member of the EU, NATO and the UN - who were arrested to photographing planes).

We (society) can't allow others who, for warped perceptions of reality, seek to deny us out freedoms.

JD