Fastest Steam engine ever in revenue service?

[jeaton]

Just an added bit. I happen to have the April 2001 Trains on my desk and that issue featured of some of William D Middleton's favorite photos. With a two page photo of a Milwaukee 4-4-2, Middleton coments: "(They) were built for speed and nothing else. Streamlined by Otto Kuhler and running on 84 inch drivers, they were to me the ultimate steam locomotive as high-speed-machine. In service they cruised at over 100 mph, and were said to be capable of 120."

As to the question of acceleration, Middleton notes a the start-to-stop average of 66.0 mph for the 13.2 mainline miles between Oconomowoc and Watertown for the Atlantic powered trains.

I think it reasonable to give the Milwaukee's A's and F7's and the Pennsy's T1's the title of fastest while actually working in revenue service, but as Old Timer tells the story, the "fastest engine" will never be known.

Jay

[Modelcar]

...Pretty much agree with what Old Timer expressed of the subject. I did mention the 127 mph reported of the 7002 E7 Atlantic was an unofficial time reported. And I agree no other we know of is any more official.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jimrice4449

Until the ICC imposed a maximum of 99MPH in the late 40s, the Hiawathas exceeded 100MPH on a daily basis.

I think this is the reason that the "official" speed record belongs to the Old Country. Obviously, any U.S. railroaders who were witness to faster times could not have that time officially recorded and still keep their jobs.

[Anonymous]

In the absence of precise timing, no American speed record will ever top that of the Mallard.

The Milwaukee Road's A 4-4-2s and F7 4-6-4s with their 84" drivers had speedometers that registered to 120 MPH, and recording tapes have shown that the engines pegged the needles at 120 MPH and a flat line was recorded at that level. But nobody knows how much faster than 120 the engines went. And nobody knows how accurate the speedometers were at that speed; the readings could be effected by variations in wheel diameters, etc.

Same with the Pennsy T1.

Nobody ever took a modern steam locomotive into the backshop, tuned it within an inch of its life, and put it out on the road with precision speed indicating equipment to find out just how fast it would go. Claims that the T1 was faster than the Milwaukee Road's Hudsons or vice versa are just that - claims.

Lore has it that one of the Milwaukee Hudsons was shipped to the railroad from Alco via Altoona and was put on the PRR test plant, and turned up in the neighborhood of 560 driving-wheel RPM, certainly within the bounds of reason for drivers that tall. This figures out to around 140 MPH. But whether this test actually took place has not been verified, nor has the claim of 560 RPM. So there we are again.

The record set by the Pennsy back in 19 ought 2 or whenever by the E2 Atlantic was claimed when the train passed two block towers three miles apart in one minute, 27 seconds. But were the towers exactly three miles apart? And were the towers' clocks precisely reading the same times? And did the operators look at them at the precise times the train's rear end passed?

The answer to all these questions is that nobody knows. Therefore, the actual speed is still open to question, but the claim of 127 MPH makes for a fun bit of lore.

- Old Timer

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Paul Milenkovic

A couple of questions about those Milwaukee Road Hiawatha Atlantics and Hudsons.

...

Second question, what was it like to accelerate a train up to 100 MPH with only 2 (Atlantic) or 3 (Hudson) powered axles? Steam could put out a whole lot more HP than early Diesel, especially if your boiler could keep up, but there is still a question about providing useful levels of acceleration to 100 MPH that 100 MPH running resulted in a high average speed.

...

My only experience was a Burlington excursion Northern pulling 18 passenger cars. It took 30 minutes to reach 90mph. The basic shape of a train is pretty aerodynamic, so I'd think it could accelerate much faster pulling a short train.

[nanaimo73]

Paul-that Trains article was in the June 1974 issue. Were the CMSP&P 4-6-4s called Baltics ?

[Paul Milenkovic]

A couple of questions about those Milwaukee Road Hiawatha Atlantics and Hudsons.

Did 100 MPH operation put any kind of stress on the rails or add to track maintenance? That steam engines "pound the road" was always an issue compared to Diesel, there probably were some steam engines that were particularly hard on the tracks, and I imagine a lot of effort went into balancing them. Trains had this thing a while back about a "bring back steam" "or "what steam could have been" article -- don't know if it was about the ACE-3000 or some other concept, where they talked about a T-1 style duplex driving 4 axles with two sets of cylinders, but unlike a T-1, they had inside rod connections to crank axles, which was explained could be "dynamically balanced" in a way that a conventional Hudson or Northern never could be. I believe the French had a kind of crank-axle interconnected duplex, but then the European railroads had different standards on what level of maintenance they would put up with in railroad equipment.

Second question, what was it like to accelerate a train up to 100 MPH with only 2 (Atlantic) or 3 (Hudson) powered axles? Steam could put out a whole lot more HP than early Diesel, especially if your boiler could keep up, but there is still a question about providing useful levels of acceleration to 100 MPH that 100 MPH running resulted in a high average speed.

Final question -- these engines were oil burners. What was the rationale for that?

[gacuster]

There was something in the appendix to the book about the C&NW 400 that one day they had to stop for a red signal and to make up time they "flogged" one of the big Pacifics uphill and then opened her up and reached 120 mph, I think it was on the way into Chicago.

[Modelcar]

And considering all above data I still believe the 7002 Atlantic A 7 4-4-2 with it's run of 3 miles in 85 sec with revenue passenger cars might qualify as the unofficial speed king at a bit over 127 mph.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jimrice4449

Thequestion should have clarrified whether we're talking about a one time occurance or day in and day out regular operation. If we're talking about daily operation the crown must go to the Milw A class 4-4-2s and, later the F-7 4-6-4s. Until the ICC imposed a maximum of 99MPH in the late 40s, the Hiawathas exceeded 100MPH on a daily basis.

I think the question adequately conveys the key points of interest , as writted.

When people ask what the land speed record is, they aren't looking for a mean, ot average figure, they are looking for the fastest "one time ever" speed...

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar


I still say the PRR T-1 has the best potential for really high speeds under a load.

[#offtopic][#offtopic] I know this is off topic, so hopefully the context *** will forgive me, but you don't know of any color photo's of a T-1, do you?

http://www.broadway-limited.com/products/images/t1sample/front34.jpg

It is a accurate HO Scale model recently released by BLI. I hope to find others somewhere on the net eventually.

[jimrice4449]

Thequestion should have clarrified whether we're talking about a one time occurance or day in and day out regular operation. If we're talking about daily operation the crown must go to the Milw A class 4-4-2s and, later the F-7 4-6-4s. Until the ICC imposed a maximum of 99MPH in the late 40s, the Hiawathas exceeded 100MPH on a daily basis.

[jimrice4449]

Thequestion should have clarrified whether we're talking about a one time occurance or day in and day out regular operation. If we're talking about daily operation the crown must go to the Milw A class 4-4-2s and, later the F-7 4-6-4s. Until the ICC imposed a maximum of 99MPH in the late 40s, the Hiawathas exceeded 100MPH on a daily basis.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar


I still say the PRR T-1 has the best potential for really high speeds under a load.

[#offtopic][#offtopic] I know this is off topic, so hopefully the context *** will forgive me, but you don't know of any color photo's of a T-1, do you?

[Modelcar]

....With the old high wheeler's...80" or so...and turning rpm's to allow 100 plus mph...I wonder how the counterweight side of the wheels stayed together....Plus the dynamics produced must have made some wild harmonics at certain rpm's.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by canazar

QUOTE: [i]

Still, I wonder if, early one starry morning, somewhere out on the pairies, in either country, the two fellas looked at one another, one eyebrow arched slightly, and a half-smirk was exchanged. A slight nod, the Man reached for the cut-off and the regulator, and...well, somebody had to hear about it later.

I think Crandell has it right. Ill go with his theroy. Probably be impossible to tell what the real record is since most of it was most likely done out on the open rail with nothing but a scared herd of cows or a freaked [:0]out farmer out in his feilds as some smoking, firebreathing banshee went screaming down the rails.. (Can you even imgaine that sight??)

Heck, I have seen highway crewman race snow plows and regulary see the UPS guys race their brown trucks (I work by a UPS wharehouse) foot to the floor, black smoke blazeing as they race across the intersection at a blinding speed of 35 miles an hour.

Men have been going fast since day one. The the theory of how many licks to the center of Tootsie Pop, way may never know. But does give great imagination......

Best Regards

Heh. Poor Buster Browns.

There are working trucks out there that are heavily modified and capable of 140+ loaded.

I still say the PRR T-1 has the best potential for really high speeds under a load.

[Gunns]

I vote for the 2900s too, <But I'm biased I am helping to restore one> our Locomotive <2926> has all <including side rods> roller bearing connections. The AT&SF rated the 2900s at 110 mph, and maintained the track to run that fast or faster. It's too bad that there isn't any track left that we could do a speed run on. In the last ten years or so 3751 was pushing 80 on her run to Chicago, but getting an open block and permission to run fast is unlikely. Shure would like to try though, 500 tons at 100+mph........

Gunns

[canazar]

QUOTE: [i]

Still, I wonder if, early one starry morning, somewhere out on the pairies, in either country, the two fellas looked at one another, one eyebrow arched slightly, and a half-smirk was exchanged. A slight nod, the Man reached for the cut-off and the regulator, and...well, somebody had to hear about it later.

I think Crandell has it right. Ill go with his theroy. Probably be impossible to tell what the real record is since most of it was most likely done out on the open rail with nothing but a scared herd of cows or a freaked [:0]out farmer out in his feilds as some smoking, firebreathing banshee went screaming down the rails.. (Can you even imgaine that sight??)

Heck, I have seen highway crewman race snow plows and regulary see the UPS guys race their brown trucks (I work by a UPS wharehouse) foot to the floor, black smoke blazeing as they race across the intersection at a blinding speed of 35 miles an hour.

Men have been going fast since day one. The the theory of how many licks to the center of Tootsie Pop, way may never know. But does give great imagination......

Best Regards

[Modelcar]

...Plenty of fast runs were made at various locations and as for which is the "official" record....is questionable...How and what made a certain run official.
Believe we as a group have cited many instances that runs with steam engines pulling revenue cars did make some extraordinary speeds. Some just off the cuff as a spur of the moment tries.....and others a planned speed run of some sort but to banner it back and forth of which was the most speedy....and how is it proved of what was done now is wide open to question. From what I have read and heard in conversation my guess for what speed might have been turned would be in the 125 to 130 mph range. One accepts his own opinion of what he thinks...what did it and where it was done....and when.

[TH&B]

Speed recordings of "steam days" could be rayther inacurate, and therefore often exagetated and unprovable.

The fastest steam engine in service today, excursion survice that is, is a German 4-8-4. It can run 100+ mph today. The A4 does officially hold the record. but it was down hill running, the Germans officialy have the second fastest wich is one mph slower but it wasn't down hill.

[selector]

I believe the record for the CPR was accomplished with a 4-4-4, and it was around 118. Not too shabby.

Still, I wonder if, early one starry morning, somewhere out on the pairies, in either country, the two fellas looked at one another, one eyebrow arched slightly, and a half-smirk was exchanged. A slight nod, the Man reached for the cut-off and the regulator, and...well, somebody had to hear about it later.

[txhighballer]

There is no doubt that the Mallard holds the "official" record,and we are glad that she is still with us today. Even though the locomotive almost stripped herself to set the record,her place in history is secured.
The bottom line in these conversations is that there were many fast runs with fast locomotives..and most likely many of these runs were make with a "wink" from the road foreman....

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Hugh Jampton

Mallard is the name of the locomotive,, it's an A4 class Pacific designed by Nigel griesly.
The official word record is 126mph,, everything else is just hearsay, sour grapes and attemped one upmanship. If your T1 went that fast why isn't it in the record book??

I had a rather pithy—bordering on invective—response to your need to play national one upsmanship with my beloved T-1. However, as I am humbled by the sacrifice and dignity expressed by Briti***roops fighting along side American troops in Iraq (and embarrassed by the fact that our country hasn’t nationally recognized that fact), I will just keep it to myself and allow you to bask in the triumphs of the A4.

Gabe . . . Hawkins.

[Hugh Jampton]

Mallard is the name of the locomotive,, it's an A4 class Pacific designed by Nigel griesly.
The official word record is 126mph,, everything else is just hearsay, sour grapes and attemped one upmanship. If your T1 went that fast why isn't it in the record book??

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed

The Mallard in Britan did between 125/130 MPH[:o)][:p][:D]

Originally posted by TheAntiGates
[

According to the History Channel today, the record is 126.9 by an English Mallard.

At first I thought they said "Mallet" and I was like N.F.W!!, but then I saw they were talking about mallards

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