Engineer improperly arrested in TX?

[dharmon]

Sorry LC..

We'll just have to agree to disagree...If one thing living in the PRC (People's Republic of California) has taught me, it's not to jump to conclusions on the basis of a new story......

and for the rest, nor to draw inference regarding their skills......

Time to go back into hibernation
Dan

[Junctionfan]

Ed,

Sorry, I didn't get a chance to yet. Are those the years of the acts or amendments passed or are those the actual names?

[dekemd]

Edblysard,

Who has jurisdiction over traffic accidents in Texas? In North Carolina accidents within city limits are investigated by the city department if it has one. Otherwise, the State Highway Patrol handles them. Sheriff's departments in NC do not investigate accidents. We may respond and assist if needed, but the actual investigation is handled by the city or state troopers. It struck me odd that a sheriff's deputy was working this accident and not the DPS officer.

As for the officers being trained on the laws pertaining to railroads, it just don't happen. There are so many laws and situations out there that you can't possibly train recruits on them all. Car/train collisions are rare if you just look at a single county somewhere, so it's not covered.

If the engineer did show them his engineer's license, but refused to show them a driver's license and he was arrested for that refusal, then those deputies are in major trouble. I hate lawsuits, but if this is why he was arrested then it was an improper and illegal arrest and a lawsuit should be filed.

[edblysard]

Andrew,
Those are the years; look in the Federal Legislation, under those years and chapters.

Dekemd,
In Texas, jurisdiction is as follows.
State wide; Federal Officers...FBI, US Marshals, DEA, NSA, US Border Patrol,
US Customs ect....

Texas Rangers and the Texas Department of Public Safety, (State Troopers)
Game Wardens, (Texas Parks and Wildlife),
Office of the Attorney General Special Investigation Services, (my former employer)
(The above have state-wide jurisdictional and extraordinary powers of arrest and investigation)
Inspector General.
Texas Border Patrol

County by County;
Local Sheriff.
Constables, by district.

Cities; local Police Department.
Depending on where the accident occurs, the local Sheriff will handle it, inside city limits, the local PD will, although the County Sheriff has jurisdiction inside any city in the county...they can pursue anyone into any city in their county and arrest them.

The point of the posting was that the Sheriffs Deputies were advised by the DPS Trooper that the engineer did not have to produce a driver’s license, but proceeded to arrest the guy anyway.

Now, as Dan pointed out, we were not there, and we only have what the reported decided to write..so...
But, having dealt with the Montgomery County Sheriff's Dept, on a professional basis, nothing they do, or fail to do, would surprise me!

Ed

[Anonymous]

I don't argue with cops... If they ask to see my I D just because, I hand it to them. I've seen just how quickly a hard headed person can be arrested, charged and fined over their silly principles. Cops think they're gods in the first place, and when you challenege them-especially now a days, you're asking for it...

trainluver1

[mvlandsw]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

All that is required and all that may be presented under this law are the federal issued engineers certificate, (engineers license) and if a conductor is asked, his federal issued conductors certificate.

It specifically states law enforcement agents may not ask for a driver’s license,
and states you, the train crew member, do not have to present one if asked.

Ed

I have never heard of a federal issued conductors certificate.

[gabe]

Dan,

You shouldn't go back into hibernation. Perhaps I should start a few flame wars on here to convince you that winter is over with all of the excess heat?

All:

Factually, Dan has a point; there may be more to the story than meets the eye. However, if the story is accurate, LC hit the legal question right on the nose. I have been laying low on this topic because I couldn't sum it up any better than LC.

Gabe

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

Sorry LC..

We'll just have to agree to disagree...If one thing living in the PRC (People's Republic of California) has taught me, it's not to jump to conclusions on the basis of a new story......

and for the rest, nor to draw inference regarding their skills......

Time to go back into hibernation
Dan

Dan -

I certainly don't want to run you off, and having spent a few years defending cops in civil cases in L.A. in the post Rodney King legal free for all I can appreciate that the media doesn't always understand law enforcement nor do they always accurately report incidents. The interesting thing about this article is that if you read it carefully you will find that the critical facts are presented through other law enforcement officials who seem to have a better grip on the situation than the Montgomery County Sheriff's Dept. Part of what I base my opinion of this incident upon are those other facts which are important to an understanding of the incident. For example, the Conroe Police are quoted as blaming the collision on the automobile driver who struck the train which was already occupying trhe crossing. The article also indicates that Stokes the engineer provided his contact information to the deputies. His not being at fault and having provided the necessary information for witness contact should have been more than adequate. Certainly, one questions why the deputies would deem it necessary to arrest someone for impeding their investigation when he had already provided them with identifying information.

The only question I can see in the facts is whether Stokes provided his engineer's card to the deputies promptly. Apparently, he did provide it to them, but not promptly enough to suit them. This makes me suspect (as a former police officer, as well) that this was a "contempt of cop" type arrest, rather than an arrest that needed to be made for a legitimate public safety reason. This is supported by the fact that both the conductor and brakeman identified Stokes as did a "representative" of the railroad, likely a manager. So, the identity of Stokes was never seriously in question.

Accordingly, it appears to me, without even addressing the comments by the Trooper or the Trooper Sergeant that this is a questionable arrest at best. Ed's comments about the reputation of the department only add independent credence to this view. Like, I said, there are quite a few good plaintiff's lawyers in Texas, so this should be interesting...

But, Dan, don't let a bit of disagreement cause you to disapear...

LC

[dekemd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Andrew,
Those are the years; look in the Federal Legislation, under those years and chapters.

Dekemd,
In Texas, jurisdiction is as follows.
State wide; Federal Officers...FBI, US Marshals, DEA, NSA, US Border Patrol,
US Customs ect....

Texas Rangers and the Texas Department of Public Safety, (State Troopers)
Game Wardens, (Texas Parks and Wildlife),
Office of the Attorney General Special Investigation Services, (my former employer)
(The above have state-wide jurisdictional and extraordinary powers of arrest and investigation)
Inspector General.
Texas Border Patrol

County by County;
Local Sheriff.
Constables, by district.

Cities; local Police Department.
Depending on where the accident occurs, the local Sheriff will handle it, inside city limits, the local PD will, although the County Sheriff has jurisdiction inside any city in the county...they can pursue anyone into any city in their county and arrest them.

The point of the posting was that the Sheriffs Deputies were advised by the DPS Trooper that the engineer did not have to produce a driver’s license, but proceeded to arrest the guy anyway.

Now, as Dan pointed out, we were not there, and we only have what the reported decided to write..so...
But, having dealt with the Montgomery County Sheriff's Dept, on a professional basis, nothing they do, or fail to do, would surprise me!

Ed

Thanks for the info on Ed. If the DPS officers are anything like the State Troopers in NC, then I'm sure they know their stuff. Those guy are very well trained. If a State trooper tells me something I tend to listen to him/her. I also know what you mean about the good ole boy system and what goes on in them. My neighboring county is like that, and I've heard many horror strories about what those guys do. It'll be interesting to see how this incident plays out.

Derrick

[Anonymous]

Lawsuits or no lawsuits things are not going to change in Conroe. Take it from some one who was born and raised in rural East Texas. I even know several of the officers in the sheriffs department in Conroe and even if they are hit with a lawsuit they will just leave the railroad alone and play their power trip games on someone else.
The system that is in place there has been in place since as far back as even any of my relatives can remember and it won't change just cause of a lawsuit. It needs to change but people in East Texas don't like change as a general rule.
This is also the same general area that back in the early 80's a local cop chased down a Mopac train with lights and sirens and gave the engineer a ticket for speeding. The train was going 15 miles over the highway posted speed limit sign. 35 instead of 20. The railroad contested the ticket and for six months the engineers we told to blow the horn from one end of town to the other... constantly. Since at the time this was a MP main that traveled mainly at night this was quite an eye opener for the town. Ticket dropped.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear


But, Dan, don't let a bit of disagreement cause you to disapear...

LC

Not running away..hibernating....as in trying to kick a cold.......

I agree that it was probably a case of "contempt of cop" that led to it. Right or wrong. You and I have both seen cases of once egos intercede things go pear shaped quickly and then it's too late. And not being there, there is usually more to it than reported in the press.

Like I said, I'm not defending Montgomery Co, nor trying to be anti-RR. I had plenty of teenage run ins with them. My irritation lies not with your comments but with some of the others out there..and not Ed's either....

Dan

[edblysard]

Mvlandsw...
Just took mine out and looked...nope, not a federal issued certificate...or at least it doesn’t state it anywhere on the license/ID card, which was issued to me by the railroad, not the feds.
Will get my engineer to show me his tomorrow, and see what the difference is, although I know the photo and the actual license is made up by our railroad police department, but whether it is a standard use federal document or not, I never really looked.
I can assure you that the certificate number on my conductors/switchman certificate is kept on file by the FRA...I asked the FRA guy who pester us all the time about it.

Ed[8D]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Mvlandsw...
Just took mine out and looked...nope, not a federal issued certificate...or at least it doesn’t state it anywhere on the license/ID card, which was issued to me by the railroad, not the feds.
Will get my engineer to show me his tomorrow, and see what the difference is, although I know the photo and the actual license is made up by our railroad police department, but whether it is a standard use federal document or not, I never really looked.
I can assure you that the certificate number on my conductors/switchman certificate is kept on file by the FRA...I asked the FRA guy who pester us all the time about it.

Ed[8D]

Ed -

Engineer's Certificates are also issued by the railroad pursuant to a written locomotive engineer training policy that each railroad must file with the FRA and update as required under 49 CFR 240 et seq.

LC

[edblysard]

Thanks, LC..
I did not know the exact mechanics of how they go about getting the certificate...I did know the railroad made the actual license, photos, card, all that jazz, but was wondering if they had a standard form they must file with the feds...
Engineers are certified by our Road Master, who must give them a written test and a hand on qualifying test...and sends the results in...just didn’t know what forms were used!

Ed

[Junctionfan]

Trying to remain on topic, does an engineer have to go to engineer's school or can the railroad teach the engineer-to-be themselves and take him or her as an apprentice if the railroad can issue the licence themselves?

I am assuming that the railroad must registar the engineer with the federal agency responsible though; am I right?

[RudyRockvilleMD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

As someone who worked in Conroe, and worked closely with both the Conroe PD, and the Montgomery County Sheriff's Department, along with the Texas Department of Public Safety, I can promise you, the Montgomery County Sheriff's Dept runs on the good ole boy system.
If your not one of them, your the enemy....including other law enforcement agencies.

I would doubt very seriously Stokes will every get an apology, although the Sheriff's Dept. might drop the charge.
And bet on Stokes getting followed home, and every where else, if he lives in Montgomery County.


My former employer, The Office of the Attorney General, State of Texas, has quite a large "file" on the good ole boys...as does the Texas Rangers(an arm of the DPS)...they dont play fair, and dont plan on changing anytime soon....

Ed

I don't want to get into this except to say I shutter to think what would happen to railroad photographers who are legally photographing trains from public property in Montgomery County, TX

[edblysard]

Rudy,
Actually, they dont hassle them at all.
Conroe has a nice place on the old MP line, and all along the track are a bunch of really good places...in fact, the old Conroe depot was moved and perserved...
The Shreiffs dept dosnt mess with the fans, its the younger bunch, and...well, you can figure out the rest.

Who you are counts a lot more than what you did...

Ed[8D]

[selector]

Soooooooooo, must I repeat myself? All any of us knows is what was provided to us in the way of a written summary, a news report, written by one person.

Not much to go on, in my books. Interesting, maybe, but hardly the definitive word.

[doghouse]

dharmon, who ever you are, good posting. Careful the rest of you, you're starting to sound like Dan Rather.

[ValleyX]

I've never seen a conductor's certificate that is to be carried while on duty. I have seen certificates of promotion for conductors and, of course, engineer's licenses.

Actually, I'm glad I'm not operating through Texas, although I knew an engineer who was taken off the engine for blocking crossings. Uh, he took the reverser handle with him when he left, too. That police force didn't do that again.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

As someone who worked in Conroe, and worked closely with both the Conroe PD, and the Montgomery County Sheriff's Department, along with the Texas Department of Public Safety, I can promise you, the Montgomery County Sheriff's Dept runs on the good ole boy system.
If your not one of them, your the enemy....including other law enforcement agencies.

I would doubt very seriously Stokes will every get an apology, although the Sheriff's Dept. might drop the charge.
And bet on Stokes getting followed home, and every where else, if he lives in Montgomery County.

My former employer, The Office of the Attorney General, State of Texas, has quite a large "file" on the good ole boys...as does the Texas Rangers(an arm of the DPS)...they dont play fair, and dont plan on changing anytime soon....

What he said. One of the reasons I bought a place in neighboring Liberty county is so that I would NOT have to deal with Montgomery county law enforcement or politics. These boys do not have the best track record (see below)

QUOTE: Maybe some big-shot civil-rights lawyer as well as some news media should go down and make their lives miserable. It's pretty rediculous that law enforcement can play by the very rules they are supposed to enforce; it just makes them look like hypocrits.

There already is one. His name is *** Deguerin. He succesfully defended Robert Durst and was counsel for David Koresh. This is tangential to the railroading incident, but Deguerin broke into the big time while defending one Clarence Brandley on a murder charge in Montgomery county. While I am not the most frothing "the man be keeping me down" type, this story is a fine illustration of the type of thing with which this engineer was confronted.

This is the most balanced and factual (i.e. not wild-eyed leftist) link I could come up with on this:

http://www.thebulletin.com/archives/2002/april/whitewash.htm

Like I said, nothing to do with railroads, but it does illustrate Montgomery County business as usual. The book "White Lies" by Nick Davies is an engrossing book on the subject, particularly to anyone familair with the area.

[edblysard]

Doghouse,
Rather's mistake was to read the reporting of someone else, but make it sound as if it was his....
Make no mistake here....I don’t subscribe to the concept that, if it is written and printed, then it must be true.
On the other hand, I do have first hand knowledge of the particular Sheriff's department mentioned; I had to work with them on a daily basis for eight years.

In Montgomery County, your family name counts for a lot, as does the color of your skin, and which side of the county you live on.

In the last years I worked there, when I left the office and headed home, I would get on IH 45, head south at exactly the speed limit, not 5 over, or 5 under, but right on the double nickel, till I cleared the county line.

Now, I live in Houston, so it should sound odd feeling better about driving out of the beautiful, gentrified county of Montgomery and into the fourth largest city in the US, with all its crime, but it sure was a relief to see that sign telling me I was leaving Montgomery County, and I carried a badge and a gun, both issued by the State!

While not getting into any particulars, let’s say that they have a well deserved record of turning simple traffic stop for minor infractions into much bigger things.

So when a report comes along that states they put their foot in it again by disregarding established procedures and ignoring the letter of the law, it doesn’t surprise me, and I tend to give a little more credence to the reporters remarks.

These guys have a bad, bad reputation, one they work on very hard to keep, and in certain circles, are proud of.

You have seen the sterotypical redneck "Bubba" deputy on TV?...well, he works in Montgomery County....

Ed

[ricwalters]

As a former Texas peace officer, retired Federal agent, and retired private investigator, I think I understand the cop's side of the issue. Unfortunately, that doesn't make his decision the right one. Someone mentioned in an earlier comment that Montgomery County law enforcement officers are notoriously bad - they were correct. I've butted heads with them several times. Hopefully, the engineer can win this one. It will set an extremely bad precedent if he doesn't.

[rails39]

I worked in Texas for 7 years for the BN and BNSF as a dispr and the way that Deputy handeled that was normal Texas standard and when you sayole buddy rules it sure does they are always rite and you are wrong no matter what you are still wrong and that poor engineer will never hear from that sheriffs office.

G. L. Braasch

[Anonymous]

In Texas and Oklahoma you can become a officer of the law with very little training. And the ones who take the jobs are the one who are too scared to steal and too lazy to work.
The good ole' boy system is very deeply intrenched. Just drive down one of our highways and you will be passed by a law officer doing at least 10 to 20 mile per hour over the speed limit. They will never be stopped. When they are in there personal cars and are stopped for speeding all they have to do is show there badge or card, they are allowed to go on there marry way with out a ticket.
I think the engineer is telling the truth, why would he not want to cooperate with the law he did nothing wrong and take a chance on loosing his job. Because the accident would have been filed under his drivers license number had he produced it.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lrpaul

In Texas and Oklahoma you can become a officer of the law with very little training. And the ones who take the jobs are the one who are too scared to steal and too lazy to work.
The good ole' boy system is very deeply intrenched. Just drive down one of our highways and you will be passed by a law officer doing at least 10 to 20 mile per hour over the speed limit. They will never be stopped. When they are in there personal cars and are stopped for speeding all they have to do is show there badge or card, they are allowed to go on there marry way with out a ticket.
I think the engineer is telling the truth, why would he not want to cooperate with the law he did nothing wrong and take a chance on loosing his job. Because the accident would have been filed under his drivers license number had he produced it.

Yeah just slightly more than it took to write this garbage. If you guys think that Texas is the only place this exists....I suggest you pull your cranium from your anium...I've come across the same local cop mentality in just about every state I've lived...and a couple of other countries...so give it a rest.......

Any other stereotypes we want to perpetuate today......people from California, how bout Mainers....people from Minnesota????

hmmm just noticed it's the parade of first time posters......

[Anonymous]

Wandering astray, I wonder if the writer who bashed the press really read the story before commenting. I know journalists sometimes "slant" their stories, but as a professional journalist for 45 years, I saw a thorough, well-balanced story.
The reporter wrote what the engineer said, what the arresting officers said, what other officers at the scene said, and what everybody replied to what everybody else had said. How can one be more balanced.
Will

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

QUOTE: Originally posted by lrpaul

In Texas and Oklahoma you can become a officer of the law with very little training. And the ones who take the jobs are the one who are too scared to steal and too lazy to work.
The good ole' boy system is very deeply intrenched. Just drive down one of our highways and you will be passed by a law officer doing at least 10 to 20 mile per hour over the speed limit. They will never be stopped. When they are in there personal cars and are stopped for speeding all they have to do is show there badge or card, they are allowed to go on there marry way with out a ticket.
I think the engineer is telling the truth, why would he not want to cooperate with the law he did nothing wrong and take a chance on loosing his job. Because the accident would have been filed under his drivers license number had he produced it.

Yeah just slightly more than it took to write this garbage. If you guys think that Texas is the only place this exists....I suggest you pull your cranium from your anium...I've come across the same local cop mentality in just about every state I've lived...and a couple of other countries...so give it a rest.......

Any other stereotypes we want to perpetuate today......people from California, how bout Mainers....people from Minnesota????

hmmm just noticed it's the parade of first time posters......

I vote we start making fun of the French again.

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rails39

I worked in Texas for 7 years for the BN and BNSF as a dispr and the way that Deputy handeled that was normal Texas standard and when you sayole buddy rules it sure does they are always rite and you are wrong no matter what you are still wrong and that poor engineer will never hear from that sheriffs office.

G. L. Braasch

No. If the article is accurate, he wont hear from the Sheriff's Office; the Sheriff's Office will from hear from him—in the form of a demand for a five-to-six figure apology. There is a federal government with a competent court system in Texas; if the Sheriff's Office did something illegal, they will pay for it. If the article is inaccurate, they wont.

As an aside, there is a local nightclub where I live called Club Mecca. The headline in the paper a few days ago stated "Sheriff raids Mecca." What I would have given for the paper to drop one of the fs and turn a good pun into better double entendre.

Gabe

[Anonymous]

Sounds like they need a new Buford Pusser to "Walk Tall" down there Ed!!

LC