ACELA IS IT A BIG MISTAKE

[Anonymous]

People seem to be putting a lot of focus on the politics and comparing the politics of the united states to the high speed countries in europe in this thread, well, lets see:

First off, we must remember that the NEC is somewhere around 50% of Amtrak's income, so it\ would be illogical to wipe it out and start over, that action in itself would kill whats left of the dwindling passenger network.

Secondly, you have to keep in mind that, unlike the united states, major cities in say, france, that many people go in between are fairly close together, and thus hopping onto the next train, going 250 MPH from paris to Lyons is more convinient and cheaper than buying a plane ticket, or driving. Here in the United States, You can pick up a plane at BWI and get to JFK in an hour or so, whereas taking the train is slower, even at 250 MPH, because of the distance between DC or BWI stations and New York. We talk about high speed going nationwide, connecting most cities like France and Germany do, but if you look at it, tghe united states is a large nation, and it is much much easier for a businessperson to hop a plane to chicago or San Francisco than even a direct high speed rail link could do.

Basically my point is: What works in Europe wouldn't necessarily work in the united states. what the Acela offers is a comfortable and relaxing "faster speed train" experiance for those who would rather take the train than the plane, between the closer of the nation's major cities. Offering a higher speed would do nothing for business except possably allow a few more trains on the schedule, and that would still not do much. It just dosn't make sence to put out billions of dollars to rebuild trackage if it isn't going to improve profits very much.

[UPTRAIN]

Sure it would make money, sure people would ride them, but I like my P42 genesis units and cruising along at 79.9 mph so I can see the country, what trains are all about!

[Anonymous]

Politics in the U.S. will always affect major infrastructure, transportation etc.projects.
A congressman whose district is nowhere the NEC has little reason to support funding it, that is until a deal is struck so that said rep. gets a plum for his district in exchange for a vote. Maybe some equpment gets built at a plant in his state.. and so on until each ones agenda is satisfied.
I don't think its fair to compare the NEC to other Nationalized high speed systems for this reason among others mentioned above.
Just my 2
Jimmy

[Anonymous]

I have seen entire interstates go from little 2 lane affairs to gigantic 4 lanes each way complete with wide grassy medians and very strong bridges, long exits and entrance ramps etc, whole mountains moved and the highway shifted here a few miles over there to make it easier for us to travel in really bad areas.

Look at that I-95 thru NYC. They punched that one straight thru a thousands of homes and pernamently removed a large section of NYC Life and Society in the name of National Defence.

The technology and the manpower needed to reconstruct the NEC to High speed standards equal to any in the world is not the issue. IT can be done.

The question is this: Is Congress going to continue to fight the budget battles while Amtrack struggles to survive on a thorougly rusted and obselete section of trackage made for 80 mph? ( am painting a picture here not necessarily bashing the railroad)

Heck if we can rebuild a bombed out and desolate europe and japan after wars that are so destructive, we can bring highspeed properly into the Northeast and in doing so use it as a learning tool for everywhere else in the United States.

It is going to take years, costa great deal of money, demand technology and innovation that may not exist yet.

We all thought the Big Dig in Boston was a money pit. Look at them now, other than a few water leaks that needs to be fixed right and soon they are in very good shape.

If you want to be able to have 200+ mph service between Washington DC and Boston Mass with service to Baltimore, Wilmington and New York fast enough to compete with airlines then you have GOT to provide the "good track" for the Acelas and thier next generations of designs to really stretch out and get up and run.

To do that you need to scrap the thing and rebuild it. Probably high off the ground so that school kids dont get killed by the very silent locomotives that come up like a bolt of lightning.

That trackage needs to be rebuilt anyways for any serious high speed. Designing 150 mph service on 80 mph track with constant slow orders is not the way to do it. You need to remove that track and rebuild it high and safe so that trains can fly while keeping the neighbors happy.

If we dont do this, it will still be a yearly problem and STILL be a 125 mph service 20 years from now while potentially other regions of the nation might see 200-300 mph service.

The idea of Little Rock AR to St Louis Mo in a hour and half for less than a plane ticket is very attractive.

We have the land, we have the technology and just need the money, engineers and a will to get the job done.

Let us try.

[andrewjonathon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dldance

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan


Much of Europe's rails were like that too and yet they have things like the ICE (Germany), TGV (France), and Eurostar (England/France). What's their big secret? I particularly would love to here how Japan does it considering they are a very dense populated country for the size they are and yet they run the fastest passenger trains.

As a result of WW2 and the cold war, Europe's infrastructure has been extensively changed -- sometimes allowing them to improve on their 1930's model.

During WW2, railroads were major bomb targets and much existing RR infrastructure was damaged or destroyed, requiring reconstrucution, which the US provided.

The partitioning of Germany into East and West during the cold war effectively realigned Germany's rail system from an historically East-West alignment to a North-South alignment -- also requiring reconstruction.

The reconstruction from these two events alone allowed a level of modernization that may not be possible in the US.

I am pretty sure the reconstruction of Europe was completed long before the French started building dedicated TGV lines and the Germans followed with their ICE trains so I think I am missing the connection. The Spanish have recently been doing the same building their high speed AVE lines and they didn't even participate in WWII.

Like the old saying goes "Where there's a will there's a way". There is just no will to do it over here so we will be stuck with the status quo for a long time to come.

[jockellis]

G'day, Y'all,
I do non desructive testing on metal and I'd feel a lot better about the grounding of the Acela fleet if it had been something other than AMTRAK's worst enemy, the FRA, which had told them to find out the problem. as I pointed out in another post, cracks are inevitable in metal, about like politics in DC. In most cases, ones the size the FRA inspector found, .040 or about 10 sheets of notebook paper squeezed together, are usually very shallow and can be buffed out very easily. I doubt if the FRA man tried to do that.
Jock Ellis
Cumming, GA US of A

[greyhounds]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

Cheap? No way but for some reason the same governments who do it, obviously think that there is something lucrative about it. Big problem with Washington is that they are cheaper then Scrooge and as envisioned as an ogre. If they aren't doing the status quo, they aren't happy but are quite happy to go off in a tangent about the status quo like the fony bleeding heart liberals they are.

That is the political problems in a nutshell. Financially speaking, it is possible because other countries can fork over the percentage of earning/ revenues/ whatever that they make so I don't see why the U.S should have a problem (of course if I was an accountant and allowed access to the U.S books.........).

Huh?

[Junctionfan]

Cheap? No way but for some reason the same governments who do it, obviously think that there is something lucrative about it. Big problem with Washington is that they are cheaper then Scrooge and as envisioned as an ogre. If they aren't doing the status quo, they aren't happy but are quite happy to go off in a tangent about the status quo like the fony bleeding heart liberals they are.

That is the political problems in a nutshell. Financially speaking, it is possible because other countries can fork over the percentage of earning/ revenues/ whatever that they make so I don't see why the U.S should have a problem (of course if I was an accountant and allowed access to the U.S books.........).

[Hugh Jampton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

Much of Europe's rails were like that too and yet they have things like the ICE (Germany), TGV (France), and Eurostar (England/France). What's their big secret? I particularly would love to here how Japan does it considering they are a very dense populated country for the size they are and yet they run the fastest passenger trains.

Well,, it's relatively easy,, dedicated lines constructed to allow high speed,, funded by governments that have a completely different way of working than in the US.
They ain't cheap either,, the 68 mile CTRL is gonna cost about 8 Billion dollars (that's nearly $120 Million per mile)

[Wdlgln005]

Part of Acela's mistake is the "buy america" plan. A lot of money was spent to demo a Swedi***rain & others. The Swedish design electrics work great. Amtrak should have ben allowed to buy some European or Japanese trainsets & get them to run in daily USA service. THen you would KNOW what changes to make for the US operating conditions.

The idiots in Washington think they can preserve the few jobs left in the US passenger rail industry. They are too afraid a foreign train might hit something and sue. Guess the "free trade agreement" dosen't apply to rail cars.

The political problem is that the NEC soaks up a ton of Amtrak capital, when the whole system needs billions. They want us to start another useless flame war over spending money in the NEC or forget Chicago-Milwaukee service.

Perhaps Amtrak should get some of the surplus Metra cars for $1 and put them in service on some short lines.

[dldance]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan


Much of Europe's rails were like that too and yet they have things like the ICE (Germany), TGV (France), and Eurostar (England/France). What's their big secret? I particularly would love to here how Japan does it considering they are a very dense populated country for the size they are and yet they run the fastest passenger trains.

As a result of WW2 and the cold war, Europe's infrastructure has been extensively changed -- sometimes allowing them to improve on their 1930's model.

During WW2, railroads were major bomb targets and much existing RR infrastructure was damaged or destroyed, requiring reconstrucution, which the US provided.

The partitioning of Germany into East and West during the cold war effectively realigned Germany's rail system from an historically East-West alignment to a North-South alignment -- also requiring reconstruction.

The reconstruction from these two events alone allowed a level of modernization that may not be possible in the US.

I don't think Acela is a mistake -- after all it has allowed 125mph on a 80mph infrastructure. Quite an accomplishment. Yes there have been some equipment problems such as the brake rotors, but name me a major automobile , truck, or airplane manufacturer that has not had recalls where significant numbers of units required retrofits. Even our esteemed freight locomotive manufacturers have had failures -- most of which were fixed in the same way that the Acela is being fixed: the problem was identified, an engineering change was made, and replacement parts or upgrades were rolled into the field. We will see alot more years of successful service out of the Acela.

dd

[Anonymous]

Ok. BaltACD, I concede the enormous expense but just how long will it take uncle same to go thru that money attempting to budget a railroad that has yet to deliver?

I celebrate your sense of knowledge regarding history when you spoke about men on horseback when this was a New World.

But is it possible to junk a system that does not work very well and build a new system that will be a research and development model for future High Speed for other parts of the United States?

I wi***o express a feeling that Amtrack is "Choked" with overgrown and rusted infrastructure.

Take a look at Nevada's model of high speed in Las Vegas. Surely we can do something similar

[Junctionfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BaltACD

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar

We need to get out away from the NEC and home grow our own High speed.

Europe and japan did it for years. What is the USA's Problem?

125 mph Acela is not really using the full potential of the equiptment. I think here is a radical idea....

Strip the NEC down to dirt from beginning to end and rebuild the darn thing for TRUE high speed.

Hows them apples hanh?

Them apples are rotten and out of touch with reality.

The NEC is making do with an alignment that was laid out by men on horseback in the middle of the 19th Century. An alignment for the equipment of the day.....a day that NO ONE could comprehend speeds of 125 or 150 MPH or more. An alignment that in fhe following 150 years has had society build its homes and industries immediately adjacent to the line. Your bare earth approch would cost conservatively 100 Billion....yes Billion with a 'B', if not into the TRILLIONS.

Much of Europe's rails were like that too and yet they have things like the ICE (Germany), TGV (France), and Eurostar (England/France). What's their big secret? I particularly would love to here how Japan does it considering they are a very dense populated country for the size they are and yet they run the fastest passenger trains.

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar

We need to get out away from the NEC and home grow our own High speed.

Europe and japan did it for years. What is the USA's Problem?

125 mph Acela is not really using the full potential of the equiptment. I think here is a radical idea....

Strip the NEC down to dirt from beginning to end and rebuild the darn thing for TRUE high speed.

Hows them apples hanh?

Them apples are rotten and out of touch with reality.

The NEC is making do with an alignment that was laid out by men on horseback in the middle of the 19th Century. An alignment for the equipment of the day.....a day that NO ONE could comprehend speeds of 125 or 150 MPH or more. An alignment that in fhe following 150 years has had society build its homes and industries immediately adjacent to the line. Your bare earth approch would cost conservatively 100 Billion....yes Billion with a 'B', if not into the TRILLIONS.

[BaltACD]

Nothing new is EVER fool proof. Nothing mechanical is EVER as good as it could be, everything can be made better and eventually everything is made better....as we learn more and as we master new technologies.

In rail transit....be that light rail, heavy rail and intercity passenger trains you get most of what you pay for.....only if there is knowledgeable oversight of the design, engineering and construction processes.....the complexities of all the technologies that comprise todays tranist vehicles virtually percludes any individual being able to provide that knowldegeable oversight.

[Anonymous]

We need to get out away from the NEC and home grow our own High speed.

Europe and japan did it for years. What is the USA's Problem?

125 mph Acela is not really using the full potential of the equiptment. I think here is a radical idea....

Strip the NEC down to dirt from beginning to end and rebuild the darn thing for TRUE high speed.

Hows them apples hanh?

[jeaton]

No, it is a combination of mistakes. But don't worry, there is at least a 50-50 chance that they will be soon go for museum stock or scrap. Or mabe they will be parked on the White House lawn.

Jay

[Anonymous]

I myself, a passenger train nut. I think that Acela is a big joke. On the inside to me looks very cheap. ABB needs to go out of business. Here in the Philadelphia area. We have two lines that ABB made. And they are falling apart. Can anyone come back with this.