ACELA IS IT A BIG MISTAKE

[Anonymous]

I myself, a passenger train nut. I think that Acela is a big joke. On the inside to me looks very cheap. ABB needs to go out of business. Here in the Philadelphia area. We have two lines that ABB made. And they are falling apart. Can anyone come back with this.

[jeaton]

No, it is a combination of mistakes. But don't worry, there is at least a 50-50 chance that they will be soon go for museum stock or scrap. Or mabe they will be parked on the White House lawn.

Jay

[Anonymous]

We need to get out away from the NEC and home grow our own High speed.

Europe and japan did it for years. What is the USA's Problem?

125 mph Acela is not really using the full potential of the equiptment. I think here is a radical idea....

Strip the NEC down to dirt from beginning to end and rebuild the darn thing for TRUE high speed.

Hows them apples hanh?

[BaltACD]

Nothing new is EVER fool proof. Nothing mechanical is EVER as good as it could be, everything can be made better and eventually everything is made better....as we learn more and as we master new technologies.

In rail transit....be that light rail, heavy rail and intercity passenger trains you get most of what you pay for.....only if there is knowledgeable oversight of the design, engineering and construction processes.....the complexities of all the technologies that comprise todays tranist vehicles virtually percludes any individual being able to provide that knowldegeable oversight.

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar

We need to get out away from the NEC and home grow our own High speed.

Europe and japan did it for years. What is the USA's Problem?

125 mph Acela is not really using the full potential of the equiptment. I think here is a radical idea....

Strip the NEC down to dirt from beginning to end and rebuild the darn thing for TRUE high speed.

Hows them apples hanh?

Them apples are rotten and out of touch with reality.

The NEC is making do with an alignment that was laid out by men on horseback in the middle of the 19th Century. An alignment for the equipment of the day.....a day that NO ONE could comprehend speeds of 125 or 150 MPH or more. An alignment that in fhe following 150 years has had society build its homes and industries immediately adjacent to the line. Your bare earth approch would cost conservatively 100 Billion....yes Billion with a 'B', if not into the TRILLIONS.

[Junctionfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BaltACD

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar

We need to get out away from the NEC and home grow our own High speed.

Europe and japan did it for years. What is the USA's Problem?

125 mph Acela is not really using the full potential of the equiptment. I think here is a radical idea....

Strip the NEC down to dirt from beginning to end and rebuild the darn thing for TRUE high speed.

Hows them apples hanh?

Them apples are rotten and out of touch with reality.

The NEC is making do with an alignment that was laid out by men on horseback in the middle of the 19th Century. An alignment for the equipment of the day.....a day that NO ONE could comprehend speeds of 125 or 150 MPH or more. An alignment that in fhe following 150 years has had society build its homes and industries immediately adjacent to the line. Your bare earth approch would cost conservatively 100 Billion....yes Billion with a 'B', if not into the TRILLIONS.

Much of Europe's rails were like that too and yet they have things like the ICE (Germany), TGV (France), and Eurostar (England/France). What's their big secret? I particularly would love to here how Japan does it considering they are a very dense populated country for the size they are and yet they run the fastest passenger trains.

[Anonymous]

Ok. BaltACD, I concede the enormous expense but just how long will it take uncle same to go thru that money attempting to budget a railroad that has yet to deliver?

I celebrate your sense of knowledge regarding history when you spoke about men on horseback when this was a New World.

But is it possible to junk a system that does not work very well and build a new system that will be a research and development model for future High Speed for other parts of the United States?

I wi***o express a feeling that Amtrack is "Choked" with overgrown and rusted infrastructure.

Take a look at Nevada's model of high speed in Las Vegas. Surely we can do something similar

[dldance]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan


Much of Europe's rails were like that too and yet they have things like the ICE (Germany), TGV (France), and Eurostar (England/France). What's their big secret? I particularly would love to here how Japan does it considering they are a very dense populated country for the size they are and yet they run the fastest passenger trains.

As a result of WW2 and the cold war, Europe's infrastructure has been extensively changed -- sometimes allowing them to improve on their 1930's model.

During WW2, railroads were major bomb targets and much existing RR infrastructure was damaged or destroyed, requiring reconstrucution, which the US provided.

The partitioning of Germany into East and West during the cold war effectively realigned Germany's rail system from an historically East-West alignment to a North-South alignment -- also requiring reconstruction.

The reconstruction from these two events alone allowed a level of modernization that may not be possible in the US.

I don't think Acela is a mistake -- after all it has allowed 125mph on a 80mph infrastructure. Quite an accomplishment. Yes there have been some equipment problems such as the brake rotors, but name me a major automobile , truck, or airplane manufacturer that has not had recalls where significant numbers of units required retrofits. Even our esteemed freight locomotive manufacturers have had failures -- most of which were fixed in the same way that the Acela is being fixed: the problem was identified, an engineering change was made, and replacement parts or upgrades were rolled into the field. We will see alot more years of successful service out of the Acela.

dd

[Wdlgln005]

Part of Acela's mistake is the "buy america" plan. A lot of money was spent to demo a Swedi***rain & others. The Swedish design electrics work great. Amtrak should have ben allowed to buy some European or Japanese trainsets & get them to run in daily USA service. THen you would KNOW what changes to make for the US operating conditions.

The idiots in Washington think they can preserve the few jobs left in the US passenger rail industry. They are too afraid a foreign train might hit something and sue. Guess the "free trade agreement" dosen't apply to rail cars.

The political problem is that the NEC soaks up a ton of Amtrak capital, when the whole system needs billions. They want us to start another useless flame war over spending money in the NEC or forget Chicago-Milwaukee service.

Perhaps Amtrak should get some of the surplus Metra cars for $1 and put them in service on some short lines.

[Hugh Jampton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

Much of Europe's rails were like that too and yet they have things like the ICE (Germany), TGV (France), and Eurostar (England/France). What's their big secret? I particularly would love to here how Japan does it considering they are a very dense populated country for the size they are and yet they run the fastest passenger trains.

Well,, it's relatively easy,, dedicated lines constructed to allow high speed,, funded by governments that have a completely different way of working than in the US.
They ain't cheap either,, the 68 mile CTRL is gonna cost about 8 Billion dollars (that's nearly $120 Million per mile)

[Junctionfan]

Cheap? No way but for some reason the same governments who do it, obviously think that there is something lucrative about it. Big problem with Washington is that they are cheaper then Scrooge and as envisioned as an ogre. If they aren't doing the status quo, they aren't happy but are quite happy to go off in a tangent about the status quo like the fony bleeding heart liberals they are.

That is the political problems in a nutshell. Financially speaking, it is possible because other countries can fork over the percentage of earning/ revenues/ whatever that they make so I don't see why the U.S should have a problem (of course if I was an accountant and allowed access to the U.S books.........).

[greyhounds]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

Cheap? No way but for some reason the same governments who do it, obviously think that there is something lucrative about it. Big problem with Washington is that they are cheaper then Scrooge and as envisioned as an ogre. If they aren't doing the status quo, they aren't happy but are quite happy to go off in a tangent about the status quo like the fony bleeding heart liberals they are.

That is the political problems in a nutshell. Financially speaking, it is possible because other countries can fork over the percentage of earning/ revenues/ whatever that they make so I don't see why the U.S should have a problem (of course if I was an accountant and allowed access to the U.S books.........).

Huh?

[jockellis]

G'day, Y'all,
I do non desructive testing on metal and I'd feel a lot better about the grounding of the Acela fleet if it had been something other than AMTRAK's worst enemy, the FRA, which had told them to find out the problem. as I pointed out in another post, cracks are inevitable in metal, about like politics in DC. In most cases, ones the size the FRA inspector found, .040 or about 10 sheets of notebook paper squeezed together, are usually very shallow and can be buffed out very easily. I doubt if the FRA man tried to do that.
Jock Ellis
Cumming, GA US of A

[andrewjonathon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dldance

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan


Much of Europe's rails were like that too and yet they have things like the ICE (Germany), TGV (France), and Eurostar (England/France). What's their big secret? I particularly would love to here how Japan does it considering they are a very dense populated country for the size they are and yet they run the fastest passenger trains.

As a result of WW2 and the cold war, Europe's infrastructure has been extensively changed -- sometimes allowing them to improve on their 1930's model.

During WW2, railroads were major bomb targets and much existing RR infrastructure was damaged or destroyed, requiring reconstrucution, which the US provided.

The partitioning of Germany into East and West during the cold war effectively realigned Germany's rail system from an historically East-West alignment to a North-South alignment -- also requiring reconstruction.

The reconstruction from these two events alone allowed a level of modernization that may not be possible in the US.

I am pretty sure the reconstruction of Europe was completed long before the French started building dedicated TGV lines and the Germans followed with their ICE trains so I think I am missing the connection. The Spanish have recently been doing the same building their high speed AVE lines and they didn't even participate in WWII.

Like the old saying goes "Where there's a will there's a way". There is just no will to do it over here so we will be stuck with the status quo for a long time to come.

[Anonymous]

I have seen entire interstates go from little 2 lane affairs to gigantic 4 lanes each way complete with wide grassy medians and very strong bridges, long exits and entrance ramps etc, whole mountains moved and the highway shifted here a few miles over there to make it easier for us to travel in really bad areas.

Look at that I-95 thru NYC. They punched that one straight thru a thousands of homes and pernamently removed a large section of NYC Life and Society in the name of National Defence.

The technology and the manpower needed to reconstruct the NEC to High speed standards equal to any in the world is not the issue. IT can be done.

The question is this: Is Congress going to continue to fight the budget battles while Amtrack struggles to survive on a thorougly rusted and obselete section of trackage made for 80 mph? ( am painting a picture here not necessarily bashing the railroad)

Heck if we can rebuild a bombed out and desolate europe and japan after wars that are so destructive, we can bring highspeed properly into the Northeast and in doing so use it as a learning tool for everywhere else in the United States.

It is going to take years, costa great deal of money, demand technology and innovation that may not exist yet.

We all thought the Big Dig in Boston was a money pit. Look at them now, other than a few water leaks that needs to be fixed right and soon they are in very good shape.

If you want to be able to have 200+ mph service between Washington DC and Boston Mass with service to Baltimore, Wilmington and New York fast enough to compete with airlines then you have GOT to provide the "good track" for the Acelas and thier next generations of designs to really stretch out and get up and run.

To do that you need to scrap the thing and rebuild it. Probably high off the ground so that school kids dont get killed by the very silent locomotives that come up like a bolt of lightning.

That trackage needs to be rebuilt anyways for any serious high speed. Designing 150 mph service on 80 mph track with constant slow orders is not the way to do it. You need to remove that track and rebuild it high and safe so that trains can fly while keeping the neighbors happy.

If we dont do this, it will still be a yearly problem and STILL be a 125 mph service 20 years from now while potentially other regions of the nation might see 200-300 mph service.

The idea of Little Rock AR to St Louis Mo in a hour and half for less than a plane ticket is very attractive.

We have the land, we have the technology and just need the money, engineers and a will to get the job done.

Let us try.

[Anonymous]

Politics in the U.S. will always affect major infrastructure, transportation etc.projects.
A congressman whose district is nowhere the NEC has little reason to support funding it, that is until a deal is struck so that said rep. gets a plum for his district in exchange for a vote. Maybe some equpment gets built at a plant in his state.. and so on until each ones agenda is satisfied.
I don't think its fair to compare the NEC to other Nationalized high speed systems for this reason among others mentioned above.
Just my 2
Jimmy

[UPTRAIN]

Sure it would make money, sure people would ride them, but I like my P42 genesis units and cruising along at 79.9 mph so I can see the country, what trains are all about!

[Anonymous]

People seem to be putting a lot of focus on the politics and comparing the politics of the united states to the high speed countries in europe in this thread, well, lets see:

First off, we must remember that the NEC is somewhere around 50% of Amtrak's income, so it\ would be illogical to wipe it out and start over, that action in itself would kill whats left of the dwindling passenger network.

Secondly, you have to keep in mind that, unlike the united states, major cities in say, france, that many people go in between are fairly close together, and thus hopping onto the next train, going 250 MPH from paris to Lyons is more convinient and cheaper than buying a plane ticket, or driving. Here in the United States, You can pick up a plane at BWI and get to JFK in an hour or so, whereas taking the train is slower, even at 250 MPH, because of the distance between DC or BWI stations and New York. We talk about high speed going nationwide, connecting most cities like France and Germany do, but if you look at it, tghe united states is a large nation, and it is much much easier for a businessperson to hop a plane to chicago or San Francisco than even a direct high speed rail link could do.

Basically my point is: What works in Europe wouldn't necessarily work in the united states. what the Acela offers is a comfortable and relaxing "faster speed train" experiance for those who would rather take the train than the plane, between the closer of the nation's major cities. Offering a higher speed would do nothing for business except possably allow a few more trains on the schedule, and that would still not do much. It just dosn't make sence to put out billions of dollars to rebuild trackage if it isn't going to improve profits very much.

[Anonymous]

IMHO the mistake railfans sometimes make is thinking in terms of high speed rail instead of high speed transportation portal to portal. The U.S. generally believes in free markets and in most situations the airplane beat out the train just as the train beat out the stagecoach. A 737 at takeoff speed is already going faster than Acela at top speed.

[Junctionfan]

The plane is not really fuel efficient for the commuting between say New York and Washington or Philadelphia to Boston is it?

I high-speed line is the best way to go. Cars can only go a certain speed where trains go 100+mph already. Plus if the roads are crummy, why make emergency services folk's job extra difficult when you could take a high-speed line. Winterstorms, heavy rain, etc; it is usually better to stay off the road during thease times and often the planes get grounded so there would be a better chance of the train making it through the weather challenges then the rest.

In theory, it should be cheaper to invest in a new 200 mph or more corridor line. I suppose it could take up the room of a 2 lane road (double track) as opposed to a 4-8 lane highway that takes up plenty of room. Amtrak charges money; not enough to pay for itself but enough to at least reduce cost. Does a highway do the same thing; what kind of profits do tolls make? Plus, the rails tend to last longer then road surface so rail maintainance should be minimal for sometime.

[Anonymous]

Airlines are pretty fast. But when you have seen Newark at Dinner time at the height of the rush and understand that there are airliners stacked in 5 very large areas of the sky just boring circles waiting thier turn to come down.

One delay at one airport will ripple thru the system.

I have ridden what was high speed in england and between London and Suffolk was pretty good service. Yes we were rolling but did not have to fight the Motorway traffic or invest in the driving to and from London.

I was raised in Baltimore. I see that sometimes in storms Amtrack will roll on (For as long as the switches and bridges hold out) while airliners are being deiced or shut down. If it is really bad no one should be out anyways.

To get to BWI, hop a plane to Boston will cost you time. Time in getting to the airport, getting on the plane, off the ground working thru the traffic in the sky and repeating the process at Boston.

If you can get that same person on true high speed and get him to boston faster than that airline can from BWI for cheaper while also offering a restraunt car etc... then you will remove a airplane from a already choked air system

America is built on the private auto. They once enjoyed train travel long ago as a means of getting around. I have heard stories of steam engines pushed to mechanical limits and being truly fast to keep the customers happy. The stories of comfort are legendary.

As for those who talk about being able to look out the window, I offer the opinion that at 80 mph you are already looking almost a 1/2 mile into the country side to see any kind of detail, 150+ on up you are only interested in getting to where you are headed. If you did look out the window in the NEC it would be the same old.

And you wont have to worry if the airliner will make V2 and generate lift to get into the sky. On take off you either get into the sky or dont. At least on a train you have a clear track and equiptment that "wants" to run at those speeds.

On the question of Lawmakers I am pretty sure the "work" in parts or expertise or something that contributes to the project first on the NEC and eventually Nationwide can be found to keep him or her happy. Not all lawmakers will get on board.

If we are able to engineer the replacement of the Woodrow Wilson Bridge on I-495 in D.C. which everyone agrees is "Failing" and due to fall into the water then we could work on the NEC or other areas in a similar manner.

Google High Speed Rail and you will probably find about 14 projects underway in different areas of the United States.

[Anonymous]

ABB is not doing the job for me as a passenger train lover. Bring back the Budd Co.

[gfjwilmde]

Ok...let me enlighten some of you on the facts about this ACELA project:

(1) ABB had NOTHING to do with designing or building these train sets!

(2) The AEM7's which ABB and EMD(Budd built the carbody) built, are still going strong, even as they are being converted from DC propulsion to AC propulsion.

(3) These train sets had to meet certain 'crash worthiness' standards, something the X2000(Sweden) and the ICE(Germany) train sets didn't have. The FRA demanded these standards, so in any event, these trains would have had to be built in the US, if not, North America at least.

(4) As far as the propulsion system, Alstom was responsible for that. Considering, that this company has been involved in many of the propulsion/electronic systems being used in many of the high speed trains in Europe, I'm suprised that these trains have had many electronic problems that have sidelined them as well.

(5) Amtrak's management were looking for financing assistance from whoever was to be the winning bidder of these trainsets. Bombardier(with the backing of the Canadian government) offered to finance much of the project, something the other bidders didn't want to do, given Amtrak's always ongoing money problems.

(6) Knorr Brake company(who took over New York Air Brake) is the main responsible party with regard to the air brake system and the brake discs in question. They subcontracted the replacement of the wheels, axles and disc assemblies to a Pennsylvania firm called ORX. If you read certain item on the internet with regard to this issue, you'll find out that this company knew a few years earlier, there were early stress and fatigue problems and didn't report this until now.

(7) The incompetency of Amtrak's Quality Assurance(QA) personnel is above all, a major contributing factor in all of this. These idiots didn't know that Bombardier were building these train sets with unskilled, incompetent workers at their Vermont and upstate New York plants. It wasn't until QA personnel from New York City Transit investigated them(Bombardier were building new subway cars for New York), then Amtrak's personnel got on the ball.

So there you have it. For those that don't work on these train sets, don't speculate about what could be wrong with them. Just ask me, I'll tell you. That's the problem here. No one asked the people who have to work on this equipment, what would be the best things to put into it and would make it easy for you to work on it. If they would have asked me I would have told them to have a stronger truck frame, better shock absorbers, the correct wheel taper, do away with alot of the electronics(electronics and railroads don't mix) and a bunch of other junk to numurous to mention. JUST ASK ME!!



GLENN
A R E A L RAILROADER!!!!!
A R E A L AMTRAKER!!!!!
A T R U E L Y DISGUSTED AND DISGRUNTLED AMERICAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jeaton]

Glen

I appreciate your input on this subject and apoligize for my first post on this topic. It was more a reflection of my frustration with Secretary Mineta's latest move than anything really to do with the Acelas.

There can be not doubt that the both the Bombardier and Amtrak managements in place at the time of the Acela project did a pretty sloppy job. But the trains have been built and there is no going back to the drawing board to do them all over again.

Fortunately, there is every appearance that the Amtrak Mechanical Dept is staffed by some very resourceful people. Assuming the money will be there, the Acela's will be back on and will continue to be the top train on the NEC for a long time to come.

Jay

[Anonymous]

I recently flew into Las Vegas. While we landed at the airport on time, my jet pulled into its gate 45 minutes late, waiting for another jet to leave. While there is plenty of airspace above America, the simple truth of the matter is that there aren't enough gates available at any given time at any airport.

When Amtrak leased the Acela equipment it was promised by the Congress and the administration that the NEC would be refurbished. What a laugh..... The Acela's were originally scheduled to cut an hour off the trip, it ended up being 15 minutes.

Amtrak under Mr. Gunn proposed a five year $5 billion plan to upgrade the NEC last year to bring Acela up to speed and make it more competitive with the airline industry. What is $5 billion? Approximatley the price of 10 Boeing 747s or Airbuses A-380s....or 10 Panamax cruise ships.....

If the cruise industry can afford to purchase two Panamax cruise ships I wonder what a true HSR rail network, either public or private, could achieve if given the proper capital funding.....

Mr. Gunn didn't get the first year funding to improve the NEC infrastructure, and this year the administration don't want to spend the $60 million emergency fund. Obviously, this administration don't want Amtrak to exist......in the NEC or elsewhere.

The Senate transportation committee quoted the price of expanding I-95 to absorb Acela's passengers today..... $87 billion...... That's does not include the price of expanding airports and their terminals to absorb Acela's ridership....

One can only come to the conclusion that Acela is cheap in comparison to either highways or airports..... Much cheaper.....

If its that way for Acela, its also that way for HSR elsewhere......

[gfjwilmde]

I recall a conversation with a certain manager(name withheld) I had when I was returning to DC after visiting my mother in New York. Our talk eventually centered on these new train sets that, at the time of our exchange, weren't being built yet. I voiced my concerns, because like some of you, I thought it would have been more prudent to upgrade out existing mainline first before you plunge alot of money into new equipment. I thought why spend millions(maybe billions) of dollars on something that is only going to go 25mph faster than what we are currently running. Even now, there are only a few interlockings that have newer high speed closed frog switches in place. These switches, with concrete ties, allow trains to crossover from track to track at higher speeds(60mph-80mph) than what is currently allowed(30mph-45mph). These improvements have allowed our conventional equipment to operate on better time schedules. I'm fully behind the importance of a higher speed network of trains operating in this country, especially in the Northeastern metropolitan regions where highways and airports are overburdened as it is. Plus, one advantage we(Amtrak) have over those two forms of transportation is that we let you off where you need to be. If not in the center of a cities' business districts, we're very close to them. I truely believe there should have been a greater government oversight of Amtrak, Bombardier and other companies involved in the making and testing of these train sets. The problem now is, there are very few companies in the world that you can aquire a bid to build high speed trains and unfortunately Bombardier just happens to be one of them. Even now, Bombardier is petitioning the FRA's approval for a turbine powered train, with the same style locomotive body that was used on the locomotives(power cars) on the high speed trains. I feel if this gets their approval, then they may as well build the cars the same/similiar so not to deal with a new group of parts vendors, which Amtrak and NeC-MSC are currently having a problem with right now. They can't get parts for even the simplest things like the food trays, so what makes you think they can get spare parts for major things like the disc brake rotors. It's going to be a very legal mess if and when this current situation blows up. One can only imagine.



GLENN
A R E A L RAILROADER!!!!!
A R E A L AMTRAKER!!!!!
A T R U E L Y DISGUSTED AND DISGRUNTLED AMERICAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[daveklepper]

1. People in the Saudi government knew about 11.09.01 before it happened. Proof? The Saudi Prince flying to New York and openly attempting to bribe then Mayor Gulliani for him to declair that "The Jews did it" with a million dollar check in is hand/

2. Fuel Cell Hydrogen, no matter what research turns up, will always be less efficient than direct use of electricity including use via batteries.

3. Honda and Toyota have proven USA can have energy independence without expensive research. On the street, easy to maintain, doesn't cost a whole lot, and very practical. So practical that Motive Power and GE (hopefully EMD soon) are applying some of this to locomotives for economic reasons.

4. Eisenhower warned that the military-industrial complex might force defense spending to be excessive. But nobody warned about the highway-auto-oil complex running the country for the benefit of oil profits and the Saudi Royal Family.

5. Jews were welcome in nearly all Muslim countries in 1492, the time of the Spanish Inquisition. Arabs and Jews were friends until the British gave the Wahabees the oil and Mecca in 1915. Then the trouble started. Israel is a democracy and any Christian group can set up a prayer meeting on any public property with the same freedom as in the USA. Hamas is now part of the Palestinian government without backing off from "ethnic cleansing", that its ultimate goal is an Islamic state, and they mean fundamentalist Islam. Can you understand why to me the land use question being swepted under the rug and the problems we face are interrelated?

Sorry for the soap box, but it is clear that President Bush wants to preserve his "friendship" with America's real arch enemies, the Saudi monarchy, and seem to be fair in our situation as well. And it just won't work. The last bunch of Palestinian prisoners the USA force Sharon to release included at least one who was caught as a terrrorist in Iraq! The Saudis could stop most of the mayhem in Iraq if they wanted to, but they don't. Hamas gets the money freely as a charity in Saudi Arabia and cooperates with all the other terrorist organizations, Hezbolah (operating legally in Europe thanks to France's Chirac), Islamic Jihad, and Al Quada, with Al Quada now having a branch in Gaza. Saudi oil imports to the USA are paid for with Anmerican lives as well as those of Palestinains and Israelis.

[Anonymous]

Poor oversight and prioritization of limited funds along with Not Invented Here syndrome are hallmarks of most government programs and IMO an argument for what's wrong with Amtrak and why it should go away. If there's a real demand for HSR in the NEC, then either privatize or outsource it. I suspect Bush would be a lot more receptive to governemnt help if Haliiburton were running it.

Social engineering as part of Amtrak's mission is a mistake as well. It's mission shouild be moving people from point A to B. IF people vote with their feet they'd rather fly or drive, then it should go out of business.

[jchnhtfd]

Might as well jump in... by and large I agree with dd, Glenn and Dave, but a few thoughts or comments (perhaps redundant).

First, with regard to rights of way and the like. One must remember that in Europe -- particularly in France and Germany -- the central government has powers which would, bluntly, cause a full-scale revolution in the US, particularly with regard to building things like brand new rail lines and roads. The entire political structure and economic structure is different, and it would be well to a)remember that and b) make no attempt to comment on one vs. the other until one has a very thorough understanding of how both systems operate and think. The bottom line, though, is that it is possible for the French or the Germans to create brand new high speed rail systems 'for the benefit of the people' without necessarily worrying about whether the people want to be benefited. Good? Bad? Let's leave it at different.

Second, the major problems with the NEC right of way are in the area between New Haven, CT, and New York., although there are difficult spots, to be sure, in the Boston and Philadelphia areas. One of the major problems is alignment -- but to bring the alignment up to 150 or 200 mph standards would be rather difficult in these areas, not to mention hideously expensive. See Item 1, above. I might add that in these areas even construction of a new lane on an Interstate is very difficult, and building a whole new Interstate now would be politically nearly impossible. Also see Item 1, above. However, alignment is not the only problem: the traffic level on parts of the NEC is extremely high (anyone see the map in the latest Trains?), and mixing a high speed train into sometimes less than 10 minute headway commuters is... difficult.

Is the Acela a mistake? No, in my opinion. But it is bedeviled by political problems.

[jeaton]

The point of Don Phillip's column in the July Trains is that the Department of Transportaiton is not doing the kind of planning that needs to be done to avoid the likely crisis we will face in the near future. This is not just railroad planning, but overall transportation planning including highway and air. It would be one thing for the DOT, as part of the US Executive Branch, to DICTATE transportation expenditures. However, it seems that there is a tendency to do nothing until things are really bad and then, of course, the cost to the economy in tax dollars and private expenditures can go through the roof.

Jay