What does Bush and parts of the US not understand about Amtrak and the national passenger rail?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by paugust

I see this as a Quid Pro Quo. John McCain sold out to the Bushies, gave them his support. He would not do that without getting something in return. McCain has wanted Amtrak dead for years. Now, suddenly, he gets his way. Coincidence? Not in bush-world.

Bush has lied about everything else he's ever done. This is no different.

and to Mark, I hope you come home safe from Iraq. I don't necessarily admire what you are doing, but I do respect it. But you lost me with the democracy ain't cheap canard.

Since when do Trains = Democracy?

Paul

Paul,

Your insistence that Bush lied is the main reason your type is going the way of the dinosaur. You are either so stupid that you don't know the difference between a lie (e.g. "I never had sex with that women, Ms. Lewinsky.") and acting on poor international intelligence (as virtually all the Western nations concluded that Saddam had WMD's), or you are so disingenuously partisan that you must scrape the very bottom of the political barrel with your flaky tongue just to slake your embedded hatred of the foundations of this nation's.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

I find two important points missing from this thread and they are also missing from any consideration so far by Bush and Mineta:

1. There are USA citizens who need Amtrak to be full citizens. They are the elderly and handicapped who cannot drive and who cannot fly but, in my opinion, are still entitled to have access to the entire country.

2. Airlines and interstate highways do not pay real estate taxes. Railroads do, and fees from Amtrak in part do pay part of those taxes. If all the land occupied by airports and interstate highways (only interstates, not any other highways) were evalautated for real estate taxes on realistic terms by local communities and counties, the total yearly tax bill would probably top $10billion, not $2Billion.

Dave,

You bring up two good points. Allow me to play devil's advocate...

1. What of the elderly and handicapped who currently not served by Amtrak? What about those elderly and handicapped who don't live anywhere near a railroad that could even support passenger rail? Conversely, if these elderly and handicapped can get around via highway oriented travel options, would not the same work for those who may currently utilize Amtrak?

2. It is the rail industry's choice to keep the ROW's under private closed access ownership. Anytime they want, they can give up that proprietary right to the public, and private/public consortium, or a tax-exempt private utility. Of course, if they do that then the transporter service providers must compete for each and every customer. It is the belief of rail industry leaders that the ability to extract monopolistic pricing from captive shippers under the property taxed closed access ROW system is preferable to having to compete for those same customers under a tax exempted open access ROW system. As everyone on this forum knows, I advocate the open access system, as it is my belief that profits would be enhanced by participating in a market based competitive situation via expanding customer volume, rather than limiting customers to those that can be exploited (and giving up the rest of the potential marktet to truckers, barge lines, and pipelines).

That being said, it is still imperative to discuss why we need a government run passenger rail service if all other modes only support privately run passenger services (albeit with varying degrees of public support for infrastructure). If it is concluded by the powers that be that we need to keep the current proprietary closed access rail system while forcing these same entities to accept a government run passenger service, why wouldn't it be perferable to have the government transfer that right of access to any potential private passenger service provider who wants to take a shot at trying to make money on passenger trains? Maybe it's true that running LD passenger trains with 1930's logistics will not result in any private sector imcome potential, but then again who knows what could come about under private enterprise if those entities focus on the more logical applications of passenger rail service, namely the concepts of overnight trains and/or tourist trains.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SP9033

The Mark said this:

"But I can't actually introduce you to Mr. Zoubaa. You see, he and his driver were asassinated by insurgents this morning as they drove to work. The Iraqi railwaymen I work with every day are pretty shook up"

Geuss he'd still been alive if we would not have gone to war with the third world that had nothing to do with 911

So, just when did you sell out?

Jim!

Mark is absolutely right. You are an idiot who needs professional help. Perhaps your union medical plan will even pay for it. Get lost LOSER.

LC

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SP9033

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mark_W._Hemphill

QUOTE: Originally posted by amtrak-tom

$10 Billion for the Iraqi railroad......that's all I've got to say.

$10 billion! That would be wonderful news to the Iraq Republic Railway. The cash input it's actually getting is but 2.32% of that number, which is a drop in the bucket of the total need. Democracy isn't cheap.

mwh

I find it interesting, that Mark Hemphill a reporter of railroad news, backer of stock held railroading, is now the American overlord to a state run railroad. Its interesting to note, this current national administration has picked Mark.

Its also interesting to note, there are funds for Iraq's natioal railroad, and Mark's boss zeros out Amtrak.

Mark, again I'm asking you, just when was it that you sold out? This is the second time I've asked this question of YOU.

Jim - Lawton, NV MP236

Hey Jim -

WHO SOLD OUT? Mark or YOU. You are the only one on the board I hear denigrading those serving their country in a foreign war. Is there a Commie flag on the wall of your garage???

I'll just bet that your LTL buddies, many of whom are Vets themselves would LOVE to know the kind of scum they have to work with...

I asked you once if you have served, now I know the answer to that question. How was Canada, Jim???

YOU DISGUST ME.

LC

[Anonymous]

Yawn, just another NeoCon obsessed with Clinton. _!_

Paul (Obviously a Dinosaur)

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by paugust

I see this as a Quid Pro Quo. John McCain sold out to the Bushies, gave them his support. He would not do that without getting something in return. McCain has wanted Amtrak dead for years. Now, suddenly, he gets his way. Coincidence? Not in bush-world.

Bush has lied about everything else he's ever done. This is no different.

and to Mark, I hope you come home safe from Iraq. I don't necessarily admire what you are doing, but I do respect it. But you lost me with the democracy ain't cheap canard.

Since when do Trains = Democracy?

Paul

Paul,

Your insistence that Bush lied is the main reason your type is going the way of the dinosaur. You are either so stupid that you don't know the difference between a lie (e.g. "I never had sex with that women, Ms. Lewinsky.") and acting on poor international intelligence (as virtually all the Western nations concluded that Saddam had WMD's), or you are so disingenuously partisan that you must scrape the very bottom of the political barrel with your flaky tongue just to slake your embedded hatred of the foundations of this nation's.

[morseman]

To: LIMITEDCLEAR
Re your last response to Jim, "How was Canada. Jim???"
Recently an American soldier sought assylum in Canada,
He was an enlisted soldier with a great record in Afghanastan.
Hr yold the Canadian jdge he would be severely punished
if returned to the U.S. as he didn't want to go to Iraq.

The judge didn't buy his story and he is to be deported
sending a message to any other enlisted Americans
seeking assylum in Canada.

This judgement was generally well received by Canadians.

[daveklepper]

Elderly and handicapped people cannot cross the continent by air or by bus and many could not afford to hire a driver and comfortable limousine. They can tolerate a bus or pay a taxi for a two hour ride to the closest Amtrak statioh, or maybe even four hours.

Regarding open access, that is a different matter than the fact that highway and air do not pay real estate taxes and rail does. Don't confuse the two issues. Again, you talk about monopolistic freight pricing, but there is always highway and air freight transportation, so the monopoly isn't complete. I still maintain that this amounts to a vitual subsidy for the non-rail intercity public transportation.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by morseman

To: LIMITEDCLEAR
Re your last response to Jim, "How was Canada. Jim???"
Recently an American soldier sought assylum in Canada,
He was an enlisted soldier with a great record in Afghanastan.
Hr yold the Canadian jdge he would be severely punished
if returned to the U.S. as he didn't want to go to Iraq.

The judge didn't buy his story and he is to be deported
sending a message to any other enlisted Americans
seeking assylum in Canada.

This judgement was generally well received by Canadians.

MM-

Thanks. I wasn't trying to cast aspersions on Canada today, but refer to the Vietnam era practice of some seeking to avoid Selective Service in the U.S. in connnection with Jim. I realize that Canada has effectively repudiated the former practice of accepting U.S. deserters.

LC

[Anonymous]

why does this have to go partisan? Mark is to be commended as a hero for going over to Iraq. Was the Intel bad for the war? Yes. But it was bad for all of us, France never once said they didn't have WMD's. Russia, Brittain, Germany all agreed that they thought that they had them. So why is it just the US intel that was wrong? Also, I think the stratagy was brilliant, they knew that the terrorists would then come in to fight them, and that is what they wanted. Why do you think that they haven't really closed the borders? It is much easier and better to draw out the enemy and kill them with your military, than to try and fight them at home. You may not agree with the war, and that is your right, but keep in mind under Saddam, he was financing the terrorist in Israel, as well as others. Plus because of his stealing of the money for food in the UN oil for Food program, he was killing a ton of people over there.
Brad

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

Elderly and handicapped people cannot cross the continent by air or by bus and many could not afford to hire a driver and comfortable limousine. They can tolerate a bus or pay a taxi for a two hour ride to the closest Amtrak statioh, or maybe even four hours.

Regarding open access, that is a different matter than the fact that highway and air do not pay real estate taxes and rail does. Don't confuse the two issues. Again, you talk about monopolistic freight pricing, but there is always highway and air freight transportation, so the monopoly isn't complete. I still maintain that this amounts to a vitual subsidy for the non-rail intercity public transportation.

Dave,

Under the current Amtrak routes, there are plenty of places out West, both small and large, which do not have access to Amtrak, and for which it would take more than a few hours ride by bus or car to access the nearest Amtrak station. Most Amtrak routes run east-west, what if the elderly or handicapped person in question needs to go north-south or NE-SW/NW-SE? How do the elderly in Boise get to Phoenix via Amtrak? How do the elderly in Billings get to El Paso via Amtrak? The point is, there just isn't enough saturation of point to point rail lines, let alone enough populace to support passenger rail between these types of cities, that they absolutely have to travel by non-rail modes to get to these places. If so, and if such trips are okay for these people, why not the same for those who may currently have the Amtrak alternative?

On the tax issue, because highways and airports are "owned" by cities, counties, and states, are you suggesting these entities tax themselves? Isn't that just taking money out of one pocket and putting it in another? Or are you suggesting what I have suggested, e.g. finding the true degree of user fees vs subsidies for these other modal infrastructures, and applying the same to railroads regardless of ownership? Like I've said before, if you are going to "equalize" the relative tax support structure among highways/airports/etc and railroads, then you better "equalize" the issue of rights of access among the various modes as well.

[Paul Milenkovic]

The political reality is that Amtrak runs, primarily, a NY-Philly commuter operation with Boston and D.C. extensions plus this amorphous other known as the long-distance trains. The NY-Philly run is where Amtrak runs some fraction of a highway lane of traffic in each direction.

With the long, steady decline in rail passenger travel from the 1920's forward, with a brief increase in traffic during WW-II when you had to ride the train and a lot of people hated the service and the crowds and were ever so eager to get back into cars when the war was over, the powers that be decided that if there was one place where rail had a role and had a chance, it was in the Northeast Corridor -- Megalopolis as it was called. That was the one place the U.S. had European-style population densities to support European-style train service. The original Alan Cripe Turbo Train and Pennsy Metroliner were part of a U.S. D.O.T. demonstration that was supposed to spark a revival of passenger rail. The demonstration concentrated on enhanced corridor service, one with electric wires, the other without.

Part of the concept was that you needed population density to support the high fixed costs of rail, and the Northeast was the place. The term Megalopolis was to convey the idea that with the population of the suburbs, the swath from Boston to D.C. was becoming one continuous suburb. Part of what was overlooked that as the city populations headed out to the suburbs in the post WW-II housing boom, even though this was happening in the Northeast (along with the rest of the country), that population was becoming more dispersed so the questions was whether there are really that many end-to-end downtown NY to downtown DC trips.

The other thing that happened was the Penn Central disaster, tied into passenger rail because Pennsy, NY, and the sick child New Haven they were required to absorb as part of the merger, had some of the highest passenger operating losses (yeah, yeah, railroad accounting, but it was a factor). Following Penn Central was Conrail, and following Conrail was CSX and to a lesser extent NS with the NEC as a passenger-only railroad going to Amtrak.

The NEC is the only part Amtrak operates a railroad, and this came about almost by accident in the long, tortured aftermath of Penn Central. Everywhere else, Amtrak runs a kind of tour operation at the sufference of the host freight railroads. Back in 1971, Amtrak was created to relieve those freight railroads of their common carrier duties to carry passengers in exchange for whatever goodies they received back in the 19th century. Since then, there has been wholesale transportation deregulation of these freight railroads, who trimmed their physical plant to the cost-efficient minimum to support their freight operations, and the idea that the freight railroads have some kind of duty to run Amtrak trains on time to discharge their common carrier responsibility to carry passengers as part of the formation of Amtrak has gotten forgotten.

So you have two Amtraks, the NY-Philly commuter operation plus extensions, along with this tour operation running on the freight railroads -- kind of like passenger riverboats darting in and out among the barge tows. The NY-Philly operation is this black hole of government-funded capital expenditures, and the passenger riverboats actually makes a slim profit if it weren't for Amtrak's tortured accounting (those evil railroads weren't the only people to play such gains) -- they make a profit because they ride on rivers where someone else is paying for the locks and dams, but they get stuck behind those barge tows getting in and out of the locks, but I guess the riverboat clientel is on the riverboat for the entertainment or for health reasons, so they don't much care that they are hours upon hours late at times.

Maybe we have it all backwards with respect to corridors. Maybe corridors are just money pits and the amount of highway congestion relief is all in people's minds (hey, they say that if you build a new highway, it will only fill up -- maybe if you subsidize a railroad, the extra highway capacity also gets used up so there is no congestion relief either). Maybe the place for trains is the long-distance passenger train -- kind of like we now have cruise ships but the days of the Queens and the USS United States plying the seas between Manhattan and Southhampton are gone. Maybe these cruise ship trains can share the rails with freight and the people on these trains aren't in a hurry to get there or they would book airline flights and put up with the TSA. Maybe the profit margins are thin and they need government support, and the government funds national parks -- these trains are like rolling national parks.

But people still think the NEC is where trains belong, but if it gets a national subsidy, there has to be long distance trains because the Iowa farmer (you all from Iowa don't get mad at me) will be unhappy paying for those city folks to have their trains.

So President Bush decides to speak truth to all of the lazy assumptions and says, "Here is 300 mil to run that NY-Philly commuter line, and if the rest of you want trains, go to your state legislatures." Oh the humanity, and of course "Bush lied" (You all want to know that story? It turns out that the Germans had this Iraqi defector Tailor of Panama guy on ice who was feeding them the info on the WMD, which the Germans passed on to U.S. but the U.S. guys couldn't interview this dude. I got this story from a right-wing source called CNN. It is much easier to say "Bush lied" than get into, the dare I say, nuances of the situation.)

Back to trains. We Midwesterners are promoting the Midwest Regional High Speed Rail Initiative. It looks really great on paper and we are eager to get it. But then we hear of how many billions were spend on the NEC getting it up to the level of service we would like to have (110 MPH trains with some grad crossings -- the 150 MPH Acela is a stunt on a short section of track for marketing purposes), and we hear of the Acela woes, and if anyone wanted to stop us in our tracks from getting the Midwest Initiative, they could point to the NEC and assign an extrapolated price figure to what we are trying to do.

A person could take a conspiratorial view to all of this. Trains were done in by GM and the concrete lobby. Look how much subsidy highways get and how little trains get. Yes highways get a lot of subsidy -- try taking the lion's share of that subsidy out of highways, putting them into trains, and see how popular you are. Oh, but when gas gets to $3, $6, or even $10/gallon, people will want their trains. No they won't, they will want hybrid cars.

[jeaton]

I, for one, never said I wanted to take money off of highways and spend it on trains. We should have more money going for both. Of course, the problem is that we don't want to spend money on anything unless we are the direct beneficiaries of that expenditure. Either cheap or greedy, I can't decide which.

Thanks for the history of railroad passenger travel. That is probably useful for somebody that was born yesterday, but since I have been around since just before WW II, for me it is just old news. If it is just old news for you also, you might have a sense of how much the world has changed in the last half century of so. At least you might know how much has changed in the thirty some years since Amtrak was started. If not, let me assure you that the travel needs of the American public has under gone a dramatic increase. Barring something that causes a totally unexpected decline in population growth, the our need for expanded transportation facilities will continue to grow. We will be a very sorry place if we spend all of the money on highways.

I continue to see the statement on this forum that Americans are so much in love with their cars that they would never want to use any other form of transportation. That may have been almost universally true in the decade or so following WW II, but I'll bet big bucks that a survey now would show that most people would say a car is something the need, not just something they want. Big difference.

WMD's? None have been found and the search has been given up. Tough spot for the President, because now not so many are buying into the falling sky pleas.

Jay Eaton

[jockellis]

G'day, Y'all:
On a personal note, Mark, Keep your head down!
We seem to have gotten off the track, so to speak, but in between the fighting, there have been some good points raised. AMTRAk will have a hard time "going 24 hours" because the freight railroads are so busy sending cars full of Chinese goods east from the left coast and empties back from the east so they can fill up again. At the present amount of track, where would they put more passenger trains without the staggering expense of new, dedicated, passenger routes? And that would really jack up the costs. Of course, the per passenger mile cost would go down if more trains were run, and in some places, that has been proved true (as stated above). But it would be hard to do that on a nation-wide basis. Remember, railroads in the 1800s learned somethig churches had known or centuries; people won't fill up the last 20 percent of a train or a sanctuary. so they have to build 25 percent more capacity than they use. (The 25 percent being one fourth more than the first 80 percent)
Personally, I think Pres. Bush sent this up as a trial balloon to see what would happen. The states became fighting mad because they don't have the money and the collective politicians will be looking for new jobs if they raise gas taxes to pay for it. Even pennies which people really wouldn't miss will get politicians beaten in November elections because people hate being taxed.
One thing I wi***he recent Trains Mag BNSF Transcon article had included - probably in sidebar form - is whether that heavy duty rail line could be used for passenger service and the 80 or so trains a day still use it. I doubt if BNSF would want to share, but who knows? When costs associated with getting merchandise from China get to the point where it not economically feasible to buy them over there but produce them here, BNSF might want another tenant.

Jock Ellis
Cumming, GA US of A

[Anonymous]

Jock,
What about BNSF, Amtrak, and FedEx getting together on a LD LA/Chic passenger/express train? Slide on containers similar to those used on FedEx planes could be carried in maybe all-door "baggage cars" (rather than intermodal which FedEx doesn't do). There would be major incentive to stay to schedule and high-value revenue to help make the train financially successful. Government mail contracts supported many trains years ago. Not thinking FedEx traffic would be handled at intermediate stops.

[daveklepper]

Compared to the real subsidies, not the Mineta false accounting that leaves out, for example, the cost of highway police in most cases, and again I say ommission of real estate taxes is a hidden subsidy, the real subsidies for highway and air transportation, and don't forget the highly subsidized regional airports that make private and charter operations possible, $2Billion a year for Amtrak is peanuts. What does the USA get?

1. Highway congestion relief in corridors.

2. Better standby protection for emergencies.

3. Most elderly and handicapped having access to most of the nation

4. Eventually, after the repairs are made, a showcase for foreign and domestic tourism.

5. Pride in the nations heritage, since railroads unified the continent.

6. Eventually, some relief of rail capacity chokepoints to benefit both Amtrak and freight.

7. Better mobility in many points with choices, not just one service or none in many communities.

I think this is a bargain. Mark, what do you think?

If anyone agrees, make a manefesto of it and send it to NARP!

As an example of choices and mobility, let us look at the Phila-NY market.

One can use Acela or Metroliner on Amtrak and spend close to $100. The fastest service. About 65 or 70 minutes.

One can use the SEPTA R9(?) trian to the Airport, fly to Newark or LaGuagria, and use a variety of public or taxi transportation to Manhattan. Also about $100 and twice the total time. But there are those who LOVE flying. So they will take the plane. (in nice weather) Excuse me, counting security except on a low-travel day, four times the time!

One can use a regional Amtrak express with not much sacrifice in time and still have the advantage of a snack bar and comfortable seats, 80 - 95 minutes, about $45 depending on date?

One can use a SEPTA Trenton local with a same-platform change at Trenton to a NJTransit train, about $36, about 120 minutes. Sparten and no food service.

The through intercity bus does about as well, may shortening it to 90 minuts if there is not heavy traffic.

My choice: PATCO Franklin Bridge (great views) train to the Camden Transportation Center. The New Jersey Transit River Line (diesel interurban car, great scenery) upstairs on the street to Trenton on the street, using the right of way of the USA's third oldest railroad still seeing CSX freight service (Camden and Amboy). Then upstairs to an NJT or Amtrak train ot NY. About $24 total, and what a terrific railfan experience!

Variations on the theme: You can by your train ticket to Newark instead of NY, save a few bucks, and use PATH from Newark to New York, either the World Trade Center Station, or Christopher St, 9th St., 14th St. 23rd St. or 32nd St. and 6th Avenue.

In the past there was also direct service from Reading Terminal to Newark Penn Station via West Trenton, and the missing passenger leg from West Trenton to Newark may be restored soon.

Those are public transportation choices.

[Junctionfan]

You have to remember that politics and thinking for yourself doesn't work in most places (or is refused to work). Bush doesn't do anything without his political advisors and spin-doctors giving the greenlight. Politicians don't know or want to think for themselves because then they might actually have to do a good job.

Believe me when I say that the world sympathises as useless politicans are not just an American thing (Primeminister Paul Martin, Premier McGuinty), they are a plague on all nations.

[oltmannd]

Cynacism is a cop-out. It is very easy to become cynical. Nothing good ever comes from cynacism.

Fighting cynacism with cynacism is no good, either. It just makes the world more cynical.

Arguing FOR what you believe is harder than knocking the other guy (or his idea) down with a hail of cynacism.

If you want the world to become a more dark and cynical, then pile on the cynacism!

If you want the world to become a better place, then stand up for what you beleive and get busy!

[oltmannd]

Of course, now I have to practice what I preach![:I]

[Anonymous]

Jim:

Pull in your horns - like YESTERDAY!

It is better to be an idiot and say nothing, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.

MWH is there to rebuild the IRR from scratch and make it work. This has nothing to do with the morality of, and the morass of legal opinions behind, the second Gulf War.

Leave your opinions about GWB out of this. They are not relevant.

If the State Department would hire Canadians for this job, I would be over there working my heart out for Mark right now.

NAR Guy
Conductor and ex-soldier
Canada

[Junctionfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd

Cynacism is a cop-out. It is very easy to become cynical. Nothing good ever comes from cynacism.

Fighting cynacism with cynacism is no good, either. It just makes the world more cynical.

Arguing FOR what you believe is harder than knocking the other guy (or his idea) down with a hail of cynacism.

If you want the world to become a more dark and cynical, then pile on the cynacism!

If you want the world to become a better place, then stand up for what you beleive and get busy!

I wish I had your faith still. I lost it for awhile with certain folk and cliques although I see little bits of promise here in there, nothing concrete.[V]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by paugust

Yawn, just another NeoCon obsessed with Clinton. _!_

So, on the one hand I have paugust calling me a NeoCon, and on the other I have Larry Kaufman calling me a communist. I guess that puts me smack dab in the middle of the ole' Bell Curve.

Just remember, when Clinton lied, thousands of Serbs died. BTW, have we rebuilt the Serbian rail network yet? After all, first bombed, first served.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by paugust

Yawn, just another NeoCon obsessed with Clinton. _!_

So, on the one hand I have paugust calling me a NeoCon, and on the other I have Larry Kaufman calling me a communist. I guess that puts me smack dab in the middle of the ole' Bell Curve.

Just remember, when Clinton lied, thousands of Serbs died. BTW, have we rebuilt the Serbian rail network yet? After all, first bombed, first served.

Well would you please make up your mind then.....Which is it? Are you a Neo-Con or a Clintonista???[;)]

[edblysard]

Sounds like a Socialist-Clintonista, with severe Pavlovian leanings....



As for Amtrak...in my opinion, I wouldn’t blink an eye at Amtrak becoming a complete ward of the Feds...in fact, I think they should take it over, and run it like a public works project.

I doubt there is an adult here who seriously thinks a passenger train, outside of the NEC, can make enough profit to be self sufficient.

From what I have read, and the opinions of a few friends who were there, even back in the heyday or the Golden Years, the only railroad that consistently made money on their passenger service was Santa Fe, and only because they served a clearly cut, dedicated market, and employed people who loved, and I mean loved, their jobs.

Compare them to, say, Southwest Airlines.
They do the same thing; serve a small, dedicated market with a vengence.

They don’t offer anything beyond a seat, a soft drink and a bag of almonds, and the promise to get you there, when you want to get there, on time, and consistently.

Miss the 12:05 to Salt Lake?

No sweat, there is a 2:05 flight also...in fact; they fly more planes to their system points than anyone else, except UPS and FedEx...

Take away the myth that Amtrak can ever be profitable, it can’t.

Give real power to the guys running it...

Let them take a hard look at the population centers that need train service.

Give them the power of the Feds to seriously put the screws to any freight railroad that doesn’t clear a path for their trains, and reward handsomely those that do.

Get the Class 1s on the carpet; tell them that we are going to upgrade the routes the Feds want, from piddley 45 mph lines to 90mph drag strips, in exchange for their willingness to get out of the way.

Fine the crap out of them, and the dispatcher that doesn’t.
Better yet, make the dispatchers on those dedicated routes/lines Feds...

Sounds like I want to make it a public utility?
You bet.

Why?

Because I sit here and watch while the feds pay upwards of 20 billion dollars to turn a 20 mile stretch of I 10, the Katy Freeway, from a 4 lane each way overcrowded freeway into a super freeway, with eight lanes each way...and by the time they finish, in 2008, it will be too small!

They are building a super freeway to funnel all these autos into a downtown/ loop system that can’t handle the traffic that exists today.

No one bats an eye at that expense, in fact, you expect your government to build and maintain the interstate, for your use.

Do the folks in Nebraska complain about the cost of the Katy freeway expansion?
I doubt they even know about it. (Well, maybe Mookie knows, but Mookies knows everything!)

You don’t hear too many gripes about the NEC from down here in the swamp...

And I am pretty sure the people who ride it every day don’t miss a minute’s sleep worrying about where the funding for it comes from.

But remove it, and watch the fireworks start!

Not a one of us really complains about NASA, which is the most un-profitable venture you could imagine, and no one expect it to ever make money, but we all "profit" from the things it does.

New medicines, new research tools, weather prediction, cell phone tech...The list goes on and on, but hard cash back?

Not a dime!

The TVA...ever hear some one who get their electricity from the dams gripe that the government spent money on that?

Or complain about the feds changing out a turbine or running new power lines?
Nope...it’s expected...

So, as soon as you, me, and everyone else we can convince gets the idea that a national passenger rail system should make money out of our heads, and start to view it as a public service/utility, we can make it work.

Tell the people you elected this last time around you don’t care if it makes a dime, you want the service.
If they can spend a few million dollars on warthog mating habit research or a hundred million on saving the snail darter fish....they can figure out how to fund and run a passenger train from Chicago to LA on time, at a cost to the user, (you) that is affordable.

Tell your representatives that if they can’t figure it out, you plan on electing someone who can.

They understand votes more than anything else.


Ed

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Sounds like a Socialist-Clintonista, with severe Pavlovian leanings....



As for Amtrak...in my opinion, I wouldn’t blink an eye at Amtrak becoming a complete ward of the Feds...in fact, I think they should take it over, and run it like a public works project.

I doubt there is an adult here who seriously thinks a passenger train, outside of the NEC, can make enough profit to be self sufficient.

From what I have read, and the opinions of a few friends who were there, even back in the heyday or the Golden Years, the only railroad that consistently made money on their passenger service was Santa Fe, and only because they served a clearly cut, dedicated market, and employed people who loved, and I mean loved, their jobs.

Compare them to, say, Southwest Airlines.
They do the same thing; serve a small, dedicated market with a vengence.

They don’t offer anything beyond a seat, a soft drink and a bag of almonds, and the promise to get you there, when you want to get there, on time, and consistently.

Miss the 12:05 to Salt Lake?

No sweat, there is a 2:05 flight also...in fact; they fly more planes to their system points than anyone else, except UPS and FedEx...

Take away the myth that Amtrak can ever be profitable, it can’t.

Give real power to the guys running it...

Let them take a hard look at the population centers that need train service.

Give them the power of the Feds to seriously put the screws to any freight railroad that doesn’t clear a path for their trains, and reward handsomely those that do.

Get the Class 1s on the carpet; tell them that we are going to upgrade the routes the Feds want, from piddley 45 mph lines to 90mph drag strips, in exchange for their willingness to get out of the way.

Fine the crap out of them, and the dispatcher that doesn’t.
Better yet, make the dispatchers on those dedicated routes/lines Feds...

Sounds like I want to make it a public utility?
You bet.

Why?

Because I sit here and watch while the feds pay upwards of 20 billion dollars to turn a 20 mile stretch of I 10, the Katy Freeway, from a 4 lane each way overcrowded freeway into a super freeway, with eight lanes each way...and by the time they finish, in 2008, it will be too small!

They are building a super freeway to funnel all these autos into a downtown/ loop system that can’t handle the traffic that exists today.

No one bats an eye at that expense, in fact, you expect your government to build and maintain the interstate, for your use.

Do the folks in Nebraska complain about the cost of the Katy freeway expansion?
I doubt they even know about it. (Well, maybe Mookie knows, but Mookies knows everything!)

You don’t hear too many gripes about the NEC from down here in the swamp...

And I am pretty sure the people who ride it every day don’t miss a minute’s sleep worrying about where the funding for it comes from.

But remove it, and watch the fireworks start!

Not a one of us really complains about NASA, which is the most un-profitable venture you could imagine, and no one expect it to ever make money, but we all "profit" from the things it does.

New medicines, new research tools, weather prediction, cell phone tech...The list goes on and on, but hard cash back?

Not a dime!

The TVA...ever hear some one who get their electricity from the dams gripe that the government spent money on that?

Or complain about the feds changing out a turbine or running new power lines?
Nope...it’s expected...

So, as soon as you, me, and everyone else we can convince gets the idea that a national passenger rail system should make money out of our heads, and start to view it as a public service/utility, we can make it work.

Tell the people you elected this last time around you don’t care if it makes a dime, you want the service.
If they can spend a few million dollars on warthog mating habit research or a hundred million on saving the snail darter fish....they can figure out how to fund and run a passenger train from Chicago to LA on time, at a cost to the user, (you) that is affordable.

Tell your representatives that if they can’t figure it out, you plan on electing someone who can.

They understand votes more than anything else.


Ed

Bravo!
Now, perhaps we could get a private concern to run the food, beverage, and sleeping and parlor service on the trains, and leave the train running to the feds. that way we won't have diners that resemble a mess tent.

Mitch

[kevarc]

Some comments

Dave - the handicpped and elderly - to me that is a red herring meant to tug at our heartstrings. Sorry, that does not wash with me. Right to travel? Try getting on an airplane without a picture ID or pay for the ticket with cash and you will find yourselve in a small room answering a lot of questions. I check the Constitution and found no right to travel.

The TVA...ever hear some one who get their electricity from the dams gripe that the government spent money on that?

Or complain about the feds changing out a turbine or running new power lines?
Nope...it’s expected...

Well, not really. THE TVA still must answer to a lot of regulators - the EPA is hammering them for replacing turbine blades and other work done to plants. They must also answer to the FERC.

It would have been better, if from the beginning, they told the truth. But, alas, they prefered to put rose colored glasses on and say yep, it will be profitable. Dave - Trains Mag, both in the editoral columns and Don Phillip's columns have been saying for years that Amtrak would never be profitable. So it is hard for me to understand why you think that it can be or that we have a RIGHT to it. We don't and it never will.

Let the states have it with the matching funds like the Feds do for highways. This puts the onus on the people closest to the problem - the state and local officials. Let them decide whether to use the funds for highways or railroads. I could live with that a lot easier than trying to get the feds to do everything.

Train dispatchers as Fed employees like Air Traffic Controllers? This is really a bad idea.

Comparing NASA to railroads is like comparing apples to oranges. At least we do get something usefull from NASA. While we may not see money put into our pocket, the advances in weather prediction from it have saved lives. Hurricanes! We get nothing like that from amtrak.

You cannot make the RR's into a public utility. It already is, but it does not have the level of regulation that a utility does. Esp. since the end of the ICC. I am in the utiltiy business and I see a HUGE number of parallels between the RR's and the electric companies. Everything we do is a big ticket item. The cost for new transmission is staggering. It is as much, if not more, for a mile of transmission lines as it is for a mile of RR track. We need a wider right of way, the structures needed are as daunting as what a RR needs, and maintenence is just as costly.

[edblysard]

Humm,
Well, Kevin, I must not have expressed myself quite a clearly as I wanted to, or you didn’t quite understand what I was writing.

I wasn’t comparing NASA to any railroad...in fact, what I was pointing out is that almost no one expects NASA to be a for profit venture, in terms of a hard cash return on the investment.
Everyone does expect technological advances to be made, and for theses advances to work their way down into the public domain, based on the research NASA and its contractors do.

And almost everyone still lets Congress get away with the "for profit" concept of Amtrak.

What I was suggesting was that you place Amtrak in the same political concept as NASA, a long term government funded public project.

And I doubt any private citizen who gets served by one of the TVA projects really cares one bit about the source of the funding for it, as long as the lights are on, their happy.

My point was, it’s your money, your representative, your congress.
If you will sit there and allow them to fund snail darter research, or warthog mating research...well, why not demand they spend your money on something you want?

Personally, I have a pretty good idea that wart hogs get on with it the same way rabbits, skunks and some of the forum members(fill in the blank) get by...and as for snail darters...well...I don’t miss the dodo bird, or the pigeons that were hunted out of existence...and I don’t see any real reason we, the general public, need to pay to find out how warthogs manage to procreate or save a fi***hat isn’t a food stuff for some other animal, and plays no real part in the planets ecosystem.

But somehow, we allowed our leaders to fund a few hundred projects that do research such concerns.

On the other hand, I do miss having a nationwide passenger train service that works.

And I don’t mind spending the money to create such a thing.

I certainly do mind spending some of the ludicrous amounts on the wild and wooly pork barrel home state projects our congressmen and women manage to get away with...
And I certainly would be more that happy to remind them they hold their current position because I helped vote them in...And don’t mind voting them out if they don’t spend my money on what I want.

And, no, railroads are not public utilities, but they were treated so by our government, and forced to behave as such, for so long that the government almost regulated them out of existence.
The mega mergers everyone seems so bent about are not solely motivated by greed, in most instances; they are the last attempt by a hammered industry to survive.

Had deregulation come even 20 years earlier, almost all of your fallen flags would still be here, in some shape or form, and almost all of them would be profitable.

If you look closely, you will notice that most of the Class1s are dropping the short haul, local industry switching in favor of the long haul, unit and intermodel train...and leaving the close to home stuff to the short lines and locals.

And, look even closer, you will see that they are investing, and helping those short lines to progress, note the excellent obituary LC posted about his friend, who made a career out of helping NS create shorelines out of their spin-off tracks.

I know, I work for a "local" railroad that serves BNSF, UP, and KCS...at a profit both to us, and the shippers.
It’s flat out cheaper for us to work the ship channel, gather it all up, and interchange with the Class 1s than it is for the big guys to do it themselves.
It’s a win, win thing for all of us.

So, while all of us sit around griping about the latest paint scheme on a BNSF locomotive, BNSF is busy showing a short line in New Mexico how to make money serving a few small mines...NS is busy teaching a local line how to get business that went to trucks back, and KCS is dragging everything it can get its hands on out of Mexico and into the US, and at less cost than trucks can move it.

They are busy recreating a business structure that existed 80 years ago, and was destroyed by our government’s attitude that they should be treated like the light company...as a public utility.

They are not, never have been, and never will be.

But, Amtrak can be...it belongs to us already, lets just take the final step, and claim ownership.

It’s ours, so let’s make it work for us.

Ed

[Anonymous]

Thanks for proving my point!

_|_

Paul

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by paugust

Yawn, just another NeoCon obsessed with Clinton. _!_

So, on the one hand I have paugust calling me a NeoCon, and on the other I have Larry Kaufman calling me a communist. I guess that puts me smack dab in the middle of the ole' Bell Curve.

Just remember, when Clinton lied, thousands of Serbs died. BTW, have we rebuilt the Serbian rail network yet? After all, first bombed, first served.

[CopCarSS]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard


Humm,
Well, Kevin, I must not have expressed myself quite a clearly as I wanted to, or you didn’t quite understand what I was writing.

I wasn’t comparing NASA to any railroad...in fact, what I was pointing out is that almost no one expects NASA to be a for profit venture, in terms of a hard cash return on the investment.
Everyone does expect technological advances to be made, and for theses advances to work their way down into the public domain, based on the research NASA and its contractors do.

And almost everyone still lets Congress get away with the "for profit" concept of Amtrak.

What I was suggesting was that you place Amtrak in the same political concept as NASA, a long term government funded public project.

And I doubt any private citizen who gets served by one of the TVA projects really cares one bit about the source of the funding for it, as long as the lights are on, their happy.

My point was, it’s your money, your representative, your congress.
If you will sit there and allow them to fund snail darter research, or warthog mating research...well, why not demand they spend your money on something you want?

Personally, I have a pretty good idea that wart hogs get on with it the same way rabbits, skunks and some of the forum members(fill in the blank) get by...and as for snail darters...well...I don’t miss the dodo bird, or the pigeons that were hunted out of existence...and I don’t see any real reason we, the general public, need to pay to find out how warthogs manage to procreate or save a fi***hat isn’t a food stuff for some other animal, and plays no real part in the planets ecosystem.

But somehow, we allowed our leaders to fund a few hundred projects that do research such concerns.

On the other hand, I do miss having a nationwide passenger train service that works.

And I don’t mind spending the money to create such a thing.

I certainly do mind spending some of the ludicrous amounts on the wild and wooly pork barrel home state projects our congressmen and women manage to get away with...
And I certainly would be more that happy to remind them they hold their current position because I helped vote them in...And don’t mind voting them out if they don’t spend my money on what I want.

And, no, railroads are not public utilities, but they were treated so by our government, and forced to behave as such, for so long that the government almost regulated them out of existence.
The mega mergers everyone seems so bent about are not solely motivated by greed, in most instances; they are the last attempt by a hammered industry to survive.

Had deregulation come even 20 years earlier, almost all of your fallen flags would still be here, in some shape or form, and almost all of them would be profitable.

If you look closely, you will notice that most of the Class1s are dropping the short haul, local industry switching in favor of the long haul, unit and intermodel train...and leaving the close to home stuff to the short lines and locals.

And, look even closer, you will see that they are investing, and helping those short lines to progress, note the excellent obituary LC posted about his friend, who made a career out of helping NS create shorelines out of their spin-off tracks.

I know, I work for a "local" railroad that serves BNSF, UP, and KCS...at a profit both to us, and the shippers.
It’s flat out cheaper for us to work the ship channel, gather it all up, and interchange with the Class 1s than it is for the big guys to do it themselves.
It’s a win, win thing for all of us.

So, while all of us sit around griping about the latest paint scheme on a BNSF locomotive, BNSF is busy showing a short line in New Mexico how to make money serving a few small mines...NS is busy teaching a local line how to get business that went to trucks back, and KCS is dragging everything it can get its hands on out of Mexico and into the US, and at less cost than trucks can move it.

They are busy recreating a business structure that existed 80 years ago, and was destroyed by our government’s attitude that they should be treated like the light company...as a public utility.

They are not, never have been, and never will be.

But, Amtrak can be...it belongs to us already, lets just take the final step, and claim ownership.

It’s ours, so let’s make it work for us.

Ed

Ed,

A wonderfully planned response, and oen of the few on this board that might make me rethink my position a little bit. Thanks for the copius amount of thought and time that you put into it.

Chris
Denver, CO

[kevarc]

Sorry, I did missread it.

It is easy to understand why certain projects get funded - PORK. Nothing more, nothing less. To them it is a big game to see how much they can bring to their district to get the votes to be re-elected. There is an old saying - all politics are local. While some of the emotional issues, abortion, for instance, may ring with Presidential elections, it is almost always local issues that play in every othere election. I know when I listen to the candidates for the Senate and House here, I don't care about the hot button issues, I want to know is it going to put money in my pocket and get government off my back. What is he/she going to do for local problems.

If you want to put Amtrak into the same catagory are NASA, what can I expect from them? NOTHING. Nothing amtrak does is going to improve the quality of life that many projects from NASA did and will continue to do. We have recieved tangible result. Research is good, subsidizing amtrak is bad. So you do want to compare the 2.

It is time to realize that amtrak is a failed entity and consign it to the dustbin unless major changes are made. Like I suggested above. Make transportation funds available to the states and let them decide whether to fund roads or trains or buses. We are the ones who must live with the decisions and considering that I only vote for 2 senators and 1 representive, why should the other idiots there tell us how and where to spend the money. I am still trying to figure out why some clown from Oregon knows what we need here in Louisiana better than what we know. (Nothing against Oregon, but they are far away from here)

[edblysard]

Kevin,
You appear to have a singular point of view...in that because Amtrak doesn’t affect you one way or the other, it should go away.
Well, I don’t ride buses...and I despise flying.
I figure if god had wanted me that high up, he would have given me wings, or put Houston on top of the Rockies...
So, from the position you present, airplanes and airports, and all city buses should be junked, because "I" don’t use them or benefit from their existence.
I also don’t get any direct benefit from the intercostals water way, or the Mississippi river, so they too should be cut off from federal funds?
As to allowing the states and local governments to use the funds at their discretion...well, last time I took IH10 across the bridge at Orange, I hit some of the cruddiest highway I have ever driven on. And then in the next parish, it was wonderful, so the patchwork spending of local governments has already been shown to produce a less than uniform and desirable product.
Now, I don’t plan on ever riding a barge up the intercostals, or rafting down the Mississippi, but I can see where traffic on both do benefit me…even though on the surface they both seem to compete with my business of railroading.
Some products don’t need to go by rail, or by truck, but fit quite well into a barge.

Shipping them any other way would increase my cost at the cash register.

Same thing applies to Amtrak.

By the way, for a failed entity, it sure draws a lot of riders ready to board at 2:00am in Houston, last time I was down there, I asked the ticket agent, 73 ticket sales, and they boarded a pretty crowded train.
Imagine if the thing was run right, and the first section of the Sunset Limited showed up at 2:00 pm in the afternoon?

I might never ride it again, but I can see where it would serve a large portion of the public.

To me, the direct benefit is I wouldn’t have to fly again.

The indirect benefit is that quite a few people would use it instead of driving or flying, lessening the crowding on the interstate and the crush at the airports.

An even better example, take New Orleans…now, from my point of view, anybody who builds a city on the third coast, below sea level, should expect to get drowned about once a year.

Hundreds, even billions of federal dollars are spent every year to keep the dikes and levees working, and to keep the city alive.

Why should I care if it sinks or swims?

I don’t even go there for Mardi-Gras, so I don’t receive any direct benefit.

So why are federal funds spent there?

Because the people who live there want them to be, and have managed to get their elected officials to help direct federal funds towards it.

All for the “common good” of the populace there.

I am pretty sure you could find a lot of folks in Oregon who dont even know where New Orleans is, and could care less if it sinks....but some of their mony is still spent there to keep it dry.

So why not spent some on the common good a national passenger rail system would create?

The funds have to be dedicated solely to Amtrak, and managed by a single, Federal entity, solely for Amtrak’s use, with broad enforcement and design powers.

Anything else is a pork barrel approach that we all know doesn’t work.

My concept is simple.

We own it already.
It is already there, and working, in a fashion.
Enough people want it to remain.

So.....

Ed