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Originally posted by edblysard If you are ordered to violate a rule, say, couple up the air on more than one double over, the crew can timeslip the railroad, (claim a work rule violation) and get another days basic pay. A good rule book shark can, on a road crew, almost double your days pay. Again, a lot of this depends on your local contract. Ed Ed, I need to clarify something that you posted in your note. You mentioned rules a couple of times in reference to work (or contract) rules. For example, your note about buckling air on more than one double is a contract provision, not a part of the General Code of Operating Rules. Same with the way you mentioned "A good rule book shark." Just a note of clarification. Lane Reply Edit ValleyX Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 1,103 posts Posted by ValleyX on Saturday, April 30, 2005 1:48 PM In my part of the midwest, that is what I've been told, as I've posted before. I've essentially worked the road most all of my railroad career and have been in a lot of different situations. You are correct in saying that working right up to the twelve isn't usually an issue but it does happen. I will run it by an FRA man again and see what he says but I do not wi***o pass on erroneous information regarding sitting on trains and securing them, etc. Art, I got in on the last of the sixteen hour days, I WOULDN'T want to go back to that again!!! Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, April 30, 2005 12:03 PM Arfbe,were you speaking of deadheading in the cab or in a caboose?I can't recall the movie,Danny Glover and Kevin Costner were in ,was about snow trains with caboose mounted flange plows,great movie.Did you work in the Rockies?Which line?What position?Etc.I'm interested in all things past in railroading. Thks,jim Reply Edit arbfbe Member sinceFebruary 2002 910 posts Posted by arbfbe on Saturday, April 30, 2005 8:03 AM Back in the days of the 16 hr Hours of Service Law, deadheading was considered by the FRA to be "rest" time. So you could work to the away from home terminal, get called upon arrival to deadhead to the home terminal on a drag local that works 15 6o 16 hours to get home and then be placed back on duty upon arrival at the home terminal account your 16 hour deadhead time was "rest". It was pretty rare but if it was snowing in the mountains and all the other supplies of crews were used up it was your chance to go back to the other end of the road. The 14 hr Hours of Service changed all that in 1970 or 1971. Reply edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Friday, April 29, 2005 12:05 PM Thanks, No, no carving onthe cases, yet. That site will go away in a few days...we are building a bigger one, more detail. And the Hemi is a MDS engine, multi displacment system. At freeway speeds, or when ever the onborad computer senses that the throttle plate is not moving outside certain settings, it drops four cylinders out, by locking the valves and shutting off the injectors. At idle, only four running. It gets 24 to 28 mpg highway, and 15 to 19 city, depending on how much you keep your foot out of it! Almost evrything on the car is controled by the computer, it dosnt even have a throttle cable, the computer reads the pedal position, and opens the throttle plate and adjust injector pressure accordingly. This thing will tell you when the battries in you key chain alarm fob are getting weak! It is Mercedes E class chassis parts with a Dodge green house, a Dodge engine, Mercedes tranny and three part rear end. And I can get more stuff in the back, than we can get in my wifes Durango. Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 29, 2005 11:31 AM Ed,i went to your site,nice work there guy.Do you carve the watch cases also. Whats your mpg with the hemi? Reply Edit edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Thursday, April 28, 2005 9:00 PM MBKCS, And that works both ways![:D] Foureasy, no, believe it or not, there is more room, front seat and back seat than a Lincoln Town Car... And its a lot faster! Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, April 28, 2005 7:30 PM [:I] Oh. Thanks for the explanation. I learn something new everyday. lol Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, April 28, 2005 6:36 PM Didn't you ever fish with the boat moving?(trolling)Same thing,except for ,you're trolling for some temporary companionship of the opposite sex.LOL Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, April 28, 2005 4:02 PM Originally posted by foureasy ... I learned from experience to plan my rest stops and also not waste rest time at bars,lady baiting etc.,... Two months as a train dispatcher taught me that EMS dispatching is nothing like train dispatching. I never even heard the terms like Hawged crew, dead-head, pigs, etc. until I started working at the railroad. I have read this post with much interest because understanding the rules of service is still not easy for me. And then someone throws in a new term "lady baiting. " Is this one of those moments when I should just remark, like I did during one of my locomotive rideouts and having read the walls in the bathroom at the crew station, "... interesting use of language." Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, April 28, 2005 12:40 PM Eby,do you get claustraphobia in your Magnum?Only kidding.LOL Reply Edit edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Thursday, April 28, 2005 12:21 PM Stand between two trains, moving in opposite directions... rested, its not too bad..tired. vertigo gets ya real quick. So far, the only cure I found was to sit down, close my eyes, and rest my head on my knees. Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, April 28, 2005 11:58 AM Thanks everyone for all your insights into operations. Things are pretty close to truckers rules for locals in regards to call times etc. I learned from experience to plan my rest stops and also not waste rest time at bars,lady baiting etc.,but not before being in tight circumstances due to nobodys fault but my own. I've seen overpasses seem to almost meet the road ahead,causing a heavy footed brake application,(tunnel vision).Get the nods and see the rear doors of a box trailer seem to be in the windshield,(hundred feet away),again the brake application.Both mirages caused by either lack of sleep or over work. Of course after these incidents happened i fell out of the cab on shaking knees and beat myself with a tire billy for being so dumb.Any of you trainmen ever had tunnels close up on you,tracks come to a point and dissapear? Reply Edit edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Thursday, April 28, 2005 6:56 AM Two thermoses...yours and the engineers..Drink his first... And "they" meaning the FRA don’t give you a grace period...12 hours are 12 hours... I have never had a road job die without tying the train down; they know how long it takes and act accordingly. I have worked a yard job, in one of our small yards, way out in the boonies, where we were order to work right up to the limit. I informed the tower operator (who is our dispatcher, we work in RTC) that we wouldn’t have time to secure the train. He said don’t worry, keep working. I protested. He insisted. I said yes, but under protest. He said a crew is on the way in the cab to relieve us, stop at 12 and sit. Crew/cab shows up, followed by the FRA field agent. Agent said we can do that, run right up to the limit, and then sit in the cab and wait. My engineer said the same you did, that’s performing service. FRA said no, that’s not service. He told me part of the rules that states, in essence, if a emergency exists, such as the train would cause a "clear and obvious danger to other railroad employees and the public in general, work can be performed, but only to the extent to allow the original crew to remove the danger." He stated that if something like that did occur, he wanted to know about it... He also told me that as long as a qualified crew member is on board, and able to secure the train if needed, that was ok too. We can do that, and as soon as another crew shows up, and boards the train, it becomes their train, and their problem. According to him, the presence of the crew member on the locomotive does not constitute service, but does equate to the train being secured. We had several instances of something like this a few years ago, a gung ho new "dispatcher" running our road crews right up to the limit, then making them sit till a relief crew arrived. Our engineers local, and the switchman’s local contacted both the FRA and the Texas Railroad Commission...they both said the same basic thing. As long as a crew member is on the train, regardless of whether they have hog lawed or not, the train is secured, hand brakes or not. Sitting on a train after your hours of service are up does not constitute service to the carrier, but does constitute fulfilling your duty to "secure" the train. I have a letter from the TRRC on our bulletin board at work, from the TRRC inspector addressing this issue...I will bring it home sat and include it in a post. Both the FRA and the TRRC want us to document this when it happens, to see if there is a pattern to it. If there is, they both indicated that they would issue a work practice recommendation to our carrier. So, if I worked for, say BNSF, and we were running out in the middle of nowhere, at 11:59 minutes, my engineer could apply the brakes...we stop, and sit. You are not performing service for the carrier, can not be forced to move the train, don’t have to answer the radio (except in an emergency) and as long as you are on board (sitting on the porch, in the cab, on the steps, physically on the locomotive) the FRA consider it secure within the GCOR provisions. The above is the exact situation I described to the FRA guy, and his response. So I guess to boils down to the local FRA inspector’s interpretation of the law, if your guys say you can have ten grace minutes, great, but mine doesn’t. Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply ValleyX Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 1,103 posts Posted by ValleyX on Thursday, April 28, 2005 3:59 AM Coffee's usually all gone by the end of 12 or else it's getting a little gamey, Ed. All I'm saying is that if you pull up there at the last minute, all out of time, they're going to give you ten minutes or so to tie the train down, I've been told this on separate occasions by two different FRA inspectors. I realize what csx is saying could be true but I know I'm not leaving it unsecured. As for a crew member being on the train and not tying it down, that crew is dead and if it isn't tied down then they're performing service by being there, then that's a willful violation, much more serious than tying it down immediately upon expiration of 12 hours Reply edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 8:33 PM Also, Keep in mind both the train crew and the dispatcher know how much time they have, and if they can or can not reach where they want to go. If it is a sideing they use frenquently, the crew has a good idea how long it takes to tie it down, they hustle it up some to make sure they make it. It is rare for a crew to hit the hours of service un prepared...by the end of their time, they have it all tied down, and feed back called in, a cab on the way, and a cup of coffee to sip! As a last resort, because it is a FRA violation to leave a train with no hand brakes applied, if a crew manages to die with out tieing it down,,,you can use the rule that allows for a crew to sit on a train and locomotive with no hand brakes, as long as one crew member is in position to apply the air brakes..a qualified crew member must be on the locomotive...so they sit there till a relief crew shows up, and one member of that crew is on board, they can then release the train to that crew... If your question was how often does a train crew die out in the middle of nowhere with their train blocking everything...rare. It happens, but not often, and the dispatcher will get his or her fanny chewed badly, not to mention the crew will have to explain to the TM why htey didnt make it any easier on the dispatcher... We all work together to prevent this from happening... Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply csxengineer98 Member sinceOctober 2002 From: US 2,358 posts Posted by csxengineer98 on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 4:12 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by ValleyX csxengr., I'm going to put here what two different FRA men have told me, if you're dead on the law and you're going to leave a train setting somewhere, despite the fact that you're dead, you'd better take time to put the handbrakes on because they both put the emphasis on the fact that God himself wouldn't be able to help you if that train rolled away and they would not be able to help you because you failed to leave the train secured and your only excuse was that your Hours of Service had expired. So, when you go dead, better tie it down, they're looking the other way for a grace period. vally...im not saying that you are to laeve the train not tied down when its going to be left unattended...all i am saying is.... if the FRA wants to be A-holes..and they see you.... they can fine you for tieing your train down after the 12 hours are up.... it should all be done befor you expire.... i know you have to bend the rules from time to time..... but the point i was making is that if you do it after the 12 hours...its considered a willfull violation and you can be fined for doing it... csx engineer "I AM the higher source" Keep the wheels on steel Reply ValleyX Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 1,103 posts Posted by ValleyX on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 2:51 PM csxengr., I'm going to put here what two different FRA men have told me, if you're dead on the law and you're going to leave a train setting somewhere, despite the fact that you're dead, you'd better take time to put the handbrakes on because they both put the emphasis on the fact that God himself wouldn't be able to help you if that train rolled away and they would not be able to help you because you failed to leave the train secured and your only excuse was that your Hours of Service had expired. So, when you go dead, better tie it down, they're looking the other way for a grace period. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 10:21 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98 QUOTE: Originally posted by drfizzix CSXEngineer.... one dumb question to follow up on this here... so the "tie-up" time after you have parked the train and are waiting for your taxi is still considered "on-duty" for purposes of hours-of-service law, correct? [%-)] the time that you sit and wait for a taxi and taxi ride back to your termianl is considered limbo time...you are still on duty since you havnt marked off of duty yet...but you are no longer alowed to proform any type of service... when your 12 hours is up...its up... going back and even tieing a handbreak on a locomotive after 12 hours is considered proforming service and is a willfull violation of the hours of service laws...stoping and tieing your train down should all be done befor your 12 hours is up... csx engineer Thank you for the information CSXengineer [8D]. I apologize for the misunderstanding of the other post regarding FRA fines..... my main point was that usually the crew is ** usually ** only fined in cases of very willful violations (including the ones you described), which I should have been more clear on. [B)] Reply Edit CSXrules4eva Member sinceAugust 2004 From: Louisville, KY 1,345 posts Posted by CSXrules4eva on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 7:27 PM Chris I'm in school now actually I'm on an apprenticship job at a diesel serviceing shop and my days when I work are generally 9 or 10 hours a day. When I got to school it's 7hrs sometimes it's a lot less depending on my professors. I think I'll defanitly have to get used to working 60hr work weeks when I get hired out on the railroad :( I couldn't play ice hockey anymore :( but, I love trains more than I do ice hockey so it would work out. LORD HELP US ALL TO BE ORIGINAL AND NOT CRISPY!!! please? Sarah J.M. Warner conductor CSX Reply ChrisBARailfan Member sinceApril 2005 From: Kansas City, MO 100 posts Posted by ChrisBARailfan on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 7:09 PM Thanks, that answers my questions, and boy am I glad I work in a salaried 9 to 5 job, all those changes and options would be too much for me. [:D] Thanks again. Chris Reply csxengineer98 Member sinceOctober 2002 From: US 2,358 posts Posted by csxengineer98 on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 6:35 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by drfizzix CSXEngineer.... one dumb question to follow up on this here... so the "tie-up" time after you have parked the train and are waiting for your taxi is still considered "on-duty" for purposes of hours-of-service law, correct? [%-)] the time that you sit and wait for a taxi and taxi ride back to your termianl is considered limbo time...you are still on duty since you havnt marked off of duty yet...but you are no longer alowed to proform any type of service... when your 12 hours is up...its up... going back and even tieing a handbreak on a locomotive after 12 hours is considered proforming service and is a willfull violation of the hours of service laws...stoping and tieing your train down should all be done befor your 12 hours is up... csx engineer "I AM the higher source" Keep the wheels on steel Reply csxengineer98 Member sinceOctober 2002 From: US 2,358 posts Posted by csxengineer98 on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 6:28 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by drfizzix To answer one of your questions Chris, generally if the FRA levies fines or sanctions, they are almost always against the railroad company, not against individual railroad employees, unless an employee caused an injury or fatality from grossly negligent behavior. To attempt to answer your other question (if I understand it correctly), the railroad crew callers (which are seperate from dispatchers at least on Class 1's and most regional lines) are responsible for ensuring that train serv ice employees are given an adequate amount of rest time under HOS laws, although GCOR states that it is also the trainman's responsibility to inform the crew caller and / or other supervisors in the event a crew caller makes an error that violates HOS rest time requirements. The FRA does have the authority to police these violations too, but I am not sure that they do much pro-active policing, especially on shortline railroads, unless they have a specific reason to be concerned about a particular railroad or division. thats only partly true on the fines...i think we rehashed this in another tread not to long ago...but if the crew dose a willfull violation of the hours of service...the FRA can fine the crew responsable directly.... if its not a willfull violation..meaning they where ordred by someone in the managment tree..such as a dispatchor or any managment personel..(trainmasters roadformans terminal managers)... the fine would then be brough on the offical responsable...and the odds are it then would be picked up the the company... i know we did a thead on this not to long ago... ***ed if ican remember the title of it now..... csx engineer "I AM the higher source" Keep the wheels on steel Reply edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 5:46 PM Depends on the local contract, but there is a basic days pay, based on a hourly pay, then mileage, away from home terminal pay, short hand pay, and depending on when you were hired, productivity pay. If you are ordered to violate a rule, say, couple up the air on more than one double over, the crew can timeslip the railroad, (claim a work rule violation) and get another days basic pay. If you work the extra board, or pool service, and the crew caller runs around you, (calls the guy in line behind you,even though you were rested and ready for duty, based on when you tied up) thats a days pay on a time slip. A lot of this depends on the local contract, but the national contract inculdes most of it also. Dead head counts against rest time, and if you worked the full 12, then have dead head, you are forbidden for performing anything considered work for the railroad, after 12 hours on duty, you cant even tie up in the computer, you have to do that once your back on duty next day... Your offical rest time starts when you reach the terminal... So if they leave you out there 5 hours, they have to pay you five extra hours, on overtime, and the time it takes to get you back to the terminal. When you hog out, you tell the dispatcher when your getting tight on time, although most of them have a good idea how long you been on duty, and often ask you when your hours of service are...the dispatcher will notify a cab, and the crew caller, whose duty is to keep track of all of the crews times, and who is rested, whos not...they will call out the relief crew. Again, slightly different by road, but thats the basics. Weird local example.. On my road, if the carrier runs out of extra board men, and takes my helper, moves him to a foreman job on a one man job, like a grain train...he gets to claim a days pay both as a helper, and another days pay as a foreman, as long as he went on duty as a helper before they moved him...I get to claim two days foreman pay for being forced to work shorthanded.... if they force him from a helper position to a helper position, he claims two days pay at helper rates. Yard crew rates and Road crew rates are a little different, road crews get the mileage. By the way, one of the conductors unoffical duites is to make sure the crew gets every dime that can, based on the local work rules.!! You new guys will find the old heads quite willing to teach you how that works! As for being forced to perform work past the twelve hour limit...you dont refuse to do so, but you make sure that they understand that you are doing so under protest...and then you call your union griever asap...he will notify the FRA...after that its their ball of wax.... When you tie up at the end of work, you fill out a basic form in your railroads computer system, which included a FRA work time form...time on duty, time of first meal, time of second meal if you work past 8 hours, and overtime, (over 8) and when you hit the hours of service, dead head time, when the transportation arrived to pick you up, when did you get in the van, when did it arrive back at your terminal...all of the info needed, and you print it off. A hard copy goes to the FRA, and you keep a hard copy... Its awful hard for the railroads to cheat on this. If they do, the national and local contracts allow for you to "fine " them by claiming pay, (time slips in lieu of actual fines)...and if they repeatedly fudge it, the FRA will step in and fine them. A good rule book shark can, on a road crew, almost double your days pay. Again, a lot of this depends on your local contract. Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply 12 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. 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Originally posted by foureasy ... I learned from experience to plan my rest stops and also not waste rest time at bars,lady baiting etc.,... Two months as a train dispatcher taught me that EMS dispatching is nothing like train dispatching. I never even heard the terms like Hawged crew, dead-head, pigs, etc. until I started working at the railroad. I have read this post with much interest because understanding the rules of service is still not easy for me. And then someone throws in a new term "lady baiting. " Is this one of those moments when I should just remark, like I did during one of my locomotive rideouts and having read the walls in the bathroom at the crew station, "... interesting use of language." Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, April 28, 2005 12:40 PM Eby,do you get claustraphobia in your Magnum?Only kidding.LOL Reply Edit edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Thursday, April 28, 2005 12:21 PM Stand between two trains, moving in opposite directions... rested, its not too bad..tired. vertigo gets ya real quick. So far, the only cure I found was to sit down, close my eyes, and rest my head on my knees. Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, April 28, 2005 11:58 AM Thanks everyone for all your insights into operations. Things are pretty close to truckers rules for locals in regards to call times etc. I learned from experience to plan my rest stops and also not waste rest time at bars,lady baiting etc.,but not before being in tight circumstances due to nobodys fault but my own. I've seen overpasses seem to almost meet the road ahead,causing a heavy footed brake application,(tunnel vision).Get the nods and see the rear doors of a box trailer seem to be in the windshield,(hundred feet away),again the brake application.Both mirages caused by either lack of sleep or over work. Of course after these incidents happened i fell out of the cab on shaking knees and beat myself with a tire billy for being so dumb.Any of you trainmen ever had tunnels close up on you,tracks come to a point and dissapear? Reply Edit edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Thursday, April 28, 2005 6:56 AM Two thermoses...yours and the engineers..Drink his first... And "they" meaning the FRA don’t give you a grace period...12 hours are 12 hours... I have never had a road job die without tying the train down; they know how long it takes and act accordingly. I have worked a yard job, in one of our small yards, way out in the boonies, where we were order to work right up to the limit. I informed the tower operator (who is our dispatcher, we work in RTC) that we wouldn’t have time to secure the train. He said don’t worry, keep working. I protested. He insisted. I said yes, but under protest. He said a crew is on the way in the cab to relieve us, stop at 12 and sit. Crew/cab shows up, followed by the FRA field agent. Agent said we can do that, run right up to the limit, and then sit in the cab and wait. My engineer said the same you did, that’s performing service. FRA said no, that’s not service. He told me part of the rules that states, in essence, if a emergency exists, such as the train would cause a "clear and obvious danger to other railroad employees and the public in general, work can be performed, but only to the extent to allow the original crew to remove the danger." He stated that if something like that did occur, he wanted to know about it... He also told me that as long as a qualified crew member is on board, and able to secure the train if needed, that was ok too. We can do that, and as soon as another crew shows up, and boards the train, it becomes their train, and their problem. According to him, the presence of the crew member on the locomotive does not constitute service, but does equate to the train being secured. We had several instances of something like this a few years ago, a gung ho new "dispatcher" running our road crews right up to the limit, then making them sit till a relief crew arrived. Our engineers local, and the switchman’s local contacted both the FRA and the Texas Railroad Commission...they both said the same basic thing. As long as a crew member is on the train, regardless of whether they have hog lawed or not, the train is secured, hand brakes or not. Sitting on a train after your hours of service are up does not constitute service to the carrier, but does constitute fulfilling your duty to "secure" the train. I have a letter from the TRRC on our bulletin board at work, from the TRRC inspector addressing this issue...I will bring it home sat and include it in a post. Both the FRA and the TRRC want us to document this when it happens, to see if there is a pattern to it. If there is, they both indicated that they would issue a work practice recommendation to our carrier. So, if I worked for, say BNSF, and we were running out in the middle of nowhere, at 11:59 minutes, my engineer could apply the brakes...we stop, and sit. You are not performing service for the carrier, can not be forced to move the train, don’t have to answer the radio (except in an emergency) and as long as you are on board (sitting on the porch, in the cab, on the steps, physically on the locomotive) the FRA consider it secure within the GCOR provisions. The above is the exact situation I described to the FRA guy, and his response. So I guess to boils down to the local FRA inspector’s interpretation of the law, if your guys say you can have ten grace minutes, great, but mine doesn’t. Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply ValleyX Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 1,103 posts Posted by ValleyX on Thursday, April 28, 2005 3:59 AM Coffee's usually all gone by the end of 12 or else it's getting a little gamey, Ed. All I'm saying is that if you pull up there at the last minute, all out of time, they're going to give you ten minutes or so to tie the train down, I've been told this on separate occasions by two different FRA inspectors. I realize what csx is saying could be true but I know I'm not leaving it unsecured. As for a crew member being on the train and not tying it down, that crew is dead and if it isn't tied down then they're performing service by being there, then that's a willful violation, much more serious than tying it down immediately upon expiration of 12 hours Reply edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 8:33 PM Also, Keep in mind both the train crew and the dispatcher know how much time they have, and if they can or can not reach where they want to go. If it is a sideing they use frenquently, the crew has a good idea how long it takes to tie it down, they hustle it up some to make sure they make it. It is rare for a crew to hit the hours of service un prepared...by the end of their time, they have it all tied down, and feed back called in, a cab on the way, and a cup of coffee to sip! As a last resort, because it is a FRA violation to leave a train with no hand brakes applied, if a crew manages to die with out tieing it down,,,you can use the rule that allows for a crew to sit on a train and locomotive with no hand brakes, as long as one crew member is in position to apply the air brakes..a qualified crew member must be on the locomotive...so they sit there till a relief crew shows up, and one member of that crew is on board, they can then release the train to that crew... If your question was how often does a train crew die out in the middle of nowhere with their train blocking everything...rare. It happens, but not often, and the dispatcher will get his or her fanny chewed badly, not to mention the crew will have to explain to the TM why htey didnt make it any easier on the dispatcher... We all work together to prevent this from happening... Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply csxengineer98 Member sinceOctober 2002 From: US 2,358 posts Posted by csxengineer98 on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 4:12 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by ValleyX csxengr., I'm going to put here what two different FRA men have told me, if you're dead on the law and you're going to leave a train setting somewhere, despite the fact that you're dead, you'd better take time to put the handbrakes on because they both put the emphasis on the fact that God himself wouldn't be able to help you if that train rolled away and they would not be able to help you because you failed to leave the train secured and your only excuse was that your Hours of Service had expired. So, when you go dead, better tie it down, they're looking the other way for a grace period. vally...im not saying that you are to laeve the train not tied down when its going to be left unattended...all i am saying is.... if the FRA wants to be A-holes..and they see you.... they can fine you for tieing your train down after the 12 hours are up.... it should all be done befor you expire.... i know you have to bend the rules from time to time..... but the point i was making is that if you do it after the 12 hours...its considered a willfull violation and you can be fined for doing it... csx engineer "I AM the higher source" Keep the wheels on steel Reply ValleyX Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 1,103 posts Posted by ValleyX on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 2:51 PM csxengr., I'm going to put here what two different FRA men have told me, if you're dead on the law and you're going to leave a train setting somewhere, despite the fact that you're dead, you'd better take time to put the handbrakes on because they both put the emphasis on the fact that God himself wouldn't be able to help you if that train rolled away and they would not be able to help you because you failed to leave the train secured and your only excuse was that your Hours of Service had expired. So, when you go dead, better tie it down, they're looking the other way for a grace period. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 10:21 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98 QUOTE: Originally posted by drfizzix CSXEngineer.... one dumb question to follow up on this here... so the "tie-up" time after you have parked the train and are waiting for your taxi is still considered "on-duty" for purposes of hours-of-service law, correct? [%-)] the time that you sit and wait for a taxi and taxi ride back to your termianl is considered limbo time...you are still on duty since you havnt marked off of duty yet...but you are no longer alowed to proform any type of service... when your 12 hours is up...its up... going back and even tieing a handbreak on a locomotive after 12 hours is considered proforming service and is a willfull violation of the hours of service laws...stoping and tieing your train down should all be done befor your 12 hours is up... csx engineer Thank you for the information CSXengineer [8D]. I apologize for the misunderstanding of the other post regarding FRA fines..... my main point was that usually the crew is ** usually ** only fined in cases of very willful violations (including the ones you described), which I should have been more clear on. [B)] Reply Edit CSXrules4eva Member sinceAugust 2004 From: Louisville, KY 1,345 posts Posted by CSXrules4eva on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 7:27 PM Chris I'm in school now actually I'm on an apprenticship job at a diesel serviceing shop and my days when I work are generally 9 or 10 hours a day. When I got to school it's 7hrs sometimes it's a lot less depending on my professors. I think I'll defanitly have to get used to working 60hr work weeks when I get hired out on the railroad :( I couldn't play ice hockey anymore :( but, I love trains more than I do ice hockey so it would work out. LORD HELP US ALL TO BE ORIGINAL AND NOT CRISPY!!! please? Sarah J.M. Warner conductor CSX Reply ChrisBARailfan Member sinceApril 2005 From: Kansas City, MO 100 posts Posted by ChrisBARailfan on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 7:09 PM Thanks, that answers my questions, and boy am I glad I work in a salaried 9 to 5 job, all those changes and options would be too much for me. [:D] Thanks again. Chris Reply csxengineer98 Member sinceOctober 2002 From: US 2,358 posts Posted by csxengineer98 on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 6:35 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by drfizzix CSXEngineer.... one dumb question to follow up on this here... so the "tie-up" time after you have parked the train and are waiting for your taxi is still considered "on-duty" for purposes of hours-of-service law, correct? [%-)] the time that you sit and wait for a taxi and taxi ride back to your termianl is considered limbo time...you are still on duty since you havnt marked off of duty yet...but you are no longer alowed to proform any type of service... when your 12 hours is up...its up... going back and even tieing a handbreak on a locomotive after 12 hours is considered proforming service and is a willfull violation of the hours of service laws...stoping and tieing your train down should all be done befor your 12 hours is up... csx engineer "I AM the higher source" Keep the wheels on steel Reply csxengineer98 Member sinceOctober 2002 From: US 2,358 posts Posted by csxengineer98 on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 6:28 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by drfizzix To answer one of your questions Chris, generally if the FRA levies fines or sanctions, they are almost always against the railroad company, not against individual railroad employees, unless an employee caused an injury or fatality from grossly negligent behavior. To attempt to answer your other question (if I understand it correctly), the railroad crew callers (which are seperate from dispatchers at least on Class 1's and most regional lines) are responsible for ensuring that train serv ice employees are given an adequate amount of rest time under HOS laws, although GCOR states that it is also the trainman's responsibility to inform the crew caller and / or other supervisors in the event a crew caller makes an error that violates HOS rest time requirements. The FRA does have the authority to police these violations too, but I am not sure that they do much pro-active policing, especially on shortline railroads, unless they have a specific reason to be concerned about a particular railroad or division. thats only partly true on the fines...i think we rehashed this in another tread not to long ago...but if the crew dose a willfull violation of the hours of service...the FRA can fine the crew responsable directly.... if its not a willfull violation..meaning they where ordred by someone in the managment tree..such as a dispatchor or any managment personel..(trainmasters roadformans terminal managers)... the fine would then be brough on the offical responsable...and the odds are it then would be picked up the the company... i know we did a thead on this not to long ago... ***ed if ican remember the title of it now..... csx engineer "I AM the higher source" Keep the wheels on steel Reply edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 5:46 PM Depends on the local contract, but there is a basic days pay, based on a hourly pay, then mileage, away from home terminal pay, short hand pay, and depending on when you were hired, productivity pay. If you are ordered to violate a rule, say, couple up the air on more than one double over, the crew can timeslip the railroad, (claim a work rule violation) and get another days basic pay. If you work the extra board, or pool service, and the crew caller runs around you, (calls the guy in line behind you,even though you were rested and ready for duty, based on when you tied up) thats a days pay on a time slip. A lot of this depends on the local contract, but the national contract inculdes most of it also. Dead head counts against rest time, and if you worked the full 12, then have dead head, you are forbidden for performing anything considered work for the railroad, after 12 hours on duty, you cant even tie up in the computer, you have to do that once your back on duty next day... Your offical rest time starts when you reach the terminal... So if they leave you out there 5 hours, they have to pay you five extra hours, on overtime, and the time it takes to get you back to the terminal. When you hog out, you tell the dispatcher when your getting tight on time, although most of them have a good idea how long you been on duty, and often ask you when your hours of service are...the dispatcher will notify a cab, and the crew caller, whose duty is to keep track of all of the crews times, and who is rested, whos not...they will call out the relief crew. Again, slightly different by road, but thats the basics. Weird local example.. On my road, if the carrier runs out of extra board men, and takes my helper, moves him to a foreman job on a one man job, like a grain train...he gets to claim a days pay both as a helper, and another days pay as a foreman, as long as he went on duty as a helper before they moved him...I get to claim two days foreman pay for being forced to work shorthanded.... if they force him from a helper position to a helper position, he claims two days pay at helper rates. Yard crew rates and Road crew rates are a little different, road crews get the mileage. By the way, one of the conductors unoffical duites is to make sure the crew gets every dime that can, based on the local work rules.!! You new guys will find the old heads quite willing to teach you how that works! As for being forced to perform work past the twelve hour limit...you dont refuse to do so, but you make sure that they understand that you are doing so under protest...and then you call your union griever asap...he will notify the FRA...after that its their ball of wax.... When you tie up at the end of work, you fill out a basic form in your railroads computer system, which included a FRA work time form...time on duty, time of first meal, time of second meal if you work past 8 hours, and overtime, (over 8) and when you hit the hours of service, dead head time, when the transportation arrived to pick you up, when did you get in the van, when did it arrive back at your terminal...all of the info needed, and you print it off. A hard copy goes to the FRA, and you keep a hard copy... Its awful hard for the railroads to cheat on this. If they do, the national and local contracts allow for you to "fine " them by claiming pay, (time slips in lieu of actual fines)...and if they repeatedly fudge it, the FRA will step in and fine them. A good rule book shark can, on a road crew, almost double your days pay. Again, a lot of this depends on your local contract. Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply 12 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. 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Two months as a train dispatcher taught me that EMS dispatching is nothing like train dispatching. I never even heard the terms like Hawged crew, dead-head, pigs, etc. until I started working at the railroad. I have read this post with much interest because understanding the rules of service is still not easy for me. And then someone throws in a new term "lady baiting. " Is this one of those moments when I should just remark, like I did during one of my locomotive rideouts and having read the walls in the bathroom at the crew station, "... interesting use of language." Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, April 28, 2005 12:40 PM Eby,do you get claustraphobia in your Magnum?Only kidding.LOL Reply Edit edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Thursday, April 28, 2005 12:21 PM Stand between two trains, moving in opposite directions... rested, its not too bad..tired. vertigo gets ya real quick. So far, the only cure I found was to sit down, close my eyes, and rest my head on my knees. Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, April 28, 2005 11:58 AM Thanks everyone for all your insights into operations. Things are pretty close to truckers rules for locals in regards to call times etc. I learned from experience to plan my rest stops and also not waste rest time at bars,lady baiting etc.,but not before being in tight circumstances due to nobodys fault but my own. I've seen overpasses seem to almost meet the road ahead,causing a heavy footed brake application,(tunnel vision).Get the nods and see the rear doors of a box trailer seem to be in the windshield,(hundred feet away),again the brake application.Both mirages caused by either lack of sleep or over work. Of course after these incidents happened i fell out of the cab on shaking knees and beat myself with a tire billy for being so dumb.Any of you trainmen ever had tunnels close up on you,tracks come to a point and dissapear? Reply Edit edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Thursday, April 28, 2005 6:56 AM Two thermoses...yours and the engineers..Drink his first... And "they" meaning the FRA don’t give you a grace period...12 hours are 12 hours... I have never had a road job die without tying the train down; they know how long it takes and act accordingly. I have worked a yard job, in one of our small yards, way out in the boonies, where we were order to work right up to the limit. I informed the tower operator (who is our dispatcher, we work in RTC) that we wouldn’t have time to secure the train. He said don’t worry, keep working. I protested. He insisted. I said yes, but under protest. He said a crew is on the way in the cab to relieve us, stop at 12 and sit. Crew/cab shows up, followed by the FRA field agent. Agent said we can do that, run right up to the limit, and then sit in the cab and wait. My engineer said the same you did, that’s performing service. FRA said no, that’s not service. He told me part of the rules that states, in essence, if a emergency exists, such as the train would cause a "clear and obvious danger to other railroad employees and the public in general, work can be performed, but only to the extent to allow the original crew to remove the danger." He stated that if something like that did occur, he wanted to know about it... He also told me that as long as a qualified crew member is on board, and able to secure the train if needed, that was ok too. We can do that, and as soon as another crew shows up, and boards the train, it becomes their train, and their problem. According to him, the presence of the crew member on the locomotive does not constitute service, but does equate to the train being secured. We had several instances of something like this a few years ago, a gung ho new "dispatcher" running our road crews right up to the limit, then making them sit till a relief crew arrived. Our engineers local, and the switchman’s local contacted both the FRA and the Texas Railroad Commission...they both said the same basic thing. As long as a crew member is on the train, regardless of whether they have hog lawed or not, the train is secured, hand brakes or not. Sitting on a train after your hours of service are up does not constitute service to the carrier, but does constitute fulfilling your duty to "secure" the train. I have a letter from the TRRC on our bulletin board at work, from the TRRC inspector addressing this issue...I will bring it home sat and include it in a post. Both the FRA and the TRRC want us to document this when it happens, to see if there is a pattern to it. If there is, they both indicated that they would issue a work practice recommendation to our carrier. So, if I worked for, say BNSF, and we were running out in the middle of nowhere, at 11:59 minutes, my engineer could apply the brakes...we stop, and sit. You are not performing service for the carrier, can not be forced to move the train, don’t have to answer the radio (except in an emergency) and as long as you are on board (sitting on the porch, in the cab, on the steps, physically on the locomotive) the FRA consider it secure within the GCOR provisions. The above is the exact situation I described to the FRA guy, and his response. So I guess to boils down to the local FRA inspector’s interpretation of the law, if your guys say you can have ten grace minutes, great, but mine doesn’t. Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply ValleyX Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 1,103 posts Posted by ValleyX on Thursday, April 28, 2005 3:59 AM Coffee's usually all gone by the end of 12 or else it's getting a little gamey, Ed. All I'm saying is that if you pull up there at the last minute, all out of time, they're going to give you ten minutes or so to tie the train down, I've been told this on separate occasions by two different FRA inspectors. I realize what csx is saying could be true but I know I'm not leaving it unsecured. As for a crew member being on the train and not tying it down, that crew is dead and if it isn't tied down then they're performing service by being there, then that's a willful violation, much more serious than tying it down immediately upon expiration of 12 hours Reply edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 8:33 PM Also, Keep in mind both the train crew and the dispatcher know how much time they have, and if they can or can not reach where they want to go. If it is a sideing they use frenquently, the crew has a good idea how long it takes to tie it down, they hustle it up some to make sure they make it. It is rare for a crew to hit the hours of service un prepared...by the end of their time, they have it all tied down, and feed back called in, a cab on the way, and a cup of coffee to sip! As a last resort, because it is a FRA violation to leave a train with no hand brakes applied, if a crew manages to die with out tieing it down,,,you can use the rule that allows for a crew to sit on a train and locomotive with no hand brakes, as long as one crew member is in position to apply the air brakes..a qualified crew member must be on the locomotive...so they sit there till a relief crew shows up, and one member of that crew is on board, they can then release the train to that crew... If your question was how often does a train crew die out in the middle of nowhere with their train blocking everything...rare. It happens, but not often, and the dispatcher will get his or her fanny chewed badly, not to mention the crew will have to explain to the TM why htey didnt make it any easier on the dispatcher... We all work together to prevent this from happening... Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply csxengineer98 Member sinceOctober 2002 From: US 2,358 posts Posted by csxengineer98 on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 4:12 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by ValleyX csxengr., I'm going to put here what two different FRA men have told me, if you're dead on the law and you're going to leave a train setting somewhere, despite the fact that you're dead, you'd better take time to put the handbrakes on because they both put the emphasis on the fact that God himself wouldn't be able to help you if that train rolled away and they would not be able to help you because you failed to leave the train secured and your only excuse was that your Hours of Service had expired. So, when you go dead, better tie it down, they're looking the other way for a grace period. vally...im not saying that you are to laeve the train not tied down when its going to be left unattended...all i am saying is.... if the FRA wants to be A-holes..and they see you.... they can fine you for tieing your train down after the 12 hours are up.... it should all be done befor you expire.... i know you have to bend the rules from time to time..... but the point i was making is that if you do it after the 12 hours...its considered a willfull violation and you can be fined for doing it... csx engineer "I AM the higher source" Keep the wheels on steel Reply ValleyX Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 1,103 posts Posted by ValleyX on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 2:51 PM csxengr., I'm going to put here what two different FRA men have told me, if you're dead on the law and you're going to leave a train setting somewhere, despite the fact that you're dead, you'd better take time to put the handbrakes on because they both put the emphasis on the fact that God himself wouldn't be able to help you if that train rolled away and they would not be able to help you because you failed to leave the train secured and your only excuse was that your Hours of Service had expired. So, when you go dead, better tie it down, they're looking the other way for a grace period. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 10:21 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98 QUOTE: Originally posted by drfizzix CSXEngineer.... one dumb question to follow up on this here... so the "tie-up" time after you have parked the train and are waiting for your taxi is still considered "on-duty" for purposes of hours-of-service law, correct? [%-)] the time that you sit and wait for a taxi and taxi ride back to your termianl is considered limbo time...you are still on duty since you havnt marked off of duty yet...but you are no longer alowed to proform any type of service... when your 12 hours is up...its up... going back and even tieing a handbreak on a locomotive after 12 hours is considered proforming service and is a willfull violation of the hours of service laws...stoping and tieing your train down should all be done befor your 12 hours is up... csx engineer Thank you for the information CSXengineer [8D]. I apologize for the misunderstanding of the other post regarding FRA fines..... my main point was that usually the crew is ** usually ** only fined in cases of very willful violations (including the ones you described), which I should have been more clear on. [B)] Reply Edit CSXrules4eva Member sinceAugust 2004 From: Louisville, KY 1,345 posts Posted by CSXrules4eva on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 7:27 PM Chris I'm in school now actually I'm on an apprenticship job at a diesel serviceing shop and my days when I work are generally 9 or 10 hours a day. When I got to school it's 7hrs sometimes it's a lot less depending on my professors. I think I'll defanitly have to get used to working 60hr work weeks when I get hired out on the railroad :( I couldn't play ice hockey anymore :( but, I love trains more than I do ice hockey so it would work out. LORD HELP US ALL TO BE ORIGINAL AND NOT CRISPY!!! please? Sarah J.M. Warner conductor CSX Reply ChrisBARailfan Member sinceApril 2005 From: Kansas City, MO 100 posts Posted by ChrisBARailfan on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 7:09 PM Thanks, that answers my questions, and boy am I glad I work in a salaried 9 to 5 job, all those changes and options would be too much for me. [:D] Thanks again. Chris Reply csxengineer98 Member sinceOctober 2002 From: US 2,358 posts Posted by csxengineer98 on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 6:35 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by drfizzix CSXEngineer.... one dumb question to follow up on this here... so the "tie-up" time after you have parked the train and are waiting for your taxi is still considered "on-duty" for purposes of hours-of-service law, correct? [%-)] the time that you sit and wait for a taxi and taxi ride back to your termianl is considered limbo time...you are still on duty since you havnt marked off of duty yet...but you are no longer alowed to proform any type of service... when your 12 hours is up...its up... going back and even tieing a handbreak on a locomotive after 12 hours is considered proforming service and is a willfull violation of the hours of service laws...stoping and tieing your train down should all be done befor your 12 hours is up... csx engineer "I AM the higher source" Keep the wheels on steel Reply csxengineer98 Member sinceOctober 2002 From: US 2,358 posts Posted by csxengineer98 on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 6:28 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by drfizzix To answer one of your questions Chris, generally if the FRA levies fines or sanctions, they are almost always against the railroad company, not against individual railroad employees, unless an employee caused an injury or fatality from grossly negligent behavior. To attempt to answer your other question (if I understand it correctly), the railroad crew callers (which are seperate from dispatchers at least on Class 1's and most regional lines) are responsible for ensuring that train serv ice employees are given an adequate amount of rest time under HOS laws, although GCOR states that it is also the trainman's responsibility to inform the crew caller and / or other supervisors in the event a crew caller makes an error that violates HOS rest time requirements. The FRA does have the authority to police these violations too, but I am not sure that they do much pro-active policing, especially on shortline railroads, unless they have a specific reason to be concerned about a particular railroad or division. thats only partly true on the fines...i think we rehashed this in another tread not to long ago...but if the crew dose a willfull violation of the hours of service...the FRA can fine the crew responsable directly.... if its not a willfull violation..meaning they where ordred by someone in the managment tree..such as a dispatchor or any managment personel..(trainmasters roadformans terminal managers)... the fine would then be brough on the offical responsable...and the odds are it then would be picked up the the company... i know we did a thead on this not to long ago... ***ed if ican remember the title of it now..... csx engineer "I AM the higher source" Keep the wheels on steel Reply edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 5:46 PM Depends on the local contract, but there is a basic days pay, based on a hourly pay, then mileage, away from home terminal pay, short hand pay, and depending on when you were hired, productivity pay. If you are ordered to violate a rule, say, couple up the air on more than one double over, the crew can timeslip the railroad, (claim a work rule violation) and get another days basic pay. If you work the extra board, or pool service, and the crew caller runs around you, (calls the guy in line behind you,even though you were rested and ready for duty, based on when you tied up) thats a days pay on a time slip. A lot of this depends on the local contract, but the national contract inculdes most of it also. Dead head counts against rest time, and if you worked the full 12, then have dead head, you are forbidden for performing anything considered work for the railroad, after 12 hours on duty, you cant even tie up in the computer, you have to do that once your back on duty next day... Your offical rest time starts when you reach the terminal... So if they leave you out there 5 hours, they have to pay you five extra hours, on overtime, and the time it takes to get you back to the terminal. When you hog out, you tell the dispatcher when your getting tight on time, although most of them have a good idea how long you been on duty, and often ask you when your hours of service are...the dispatcher will notify a cab, and the crew caller, whose duty is to keep track of all of the crews times, and who is rested, whos not...they will call out the relief crew. Again, slightly different by road, but thats the basics. Weird local example.. On my road, if the carrier runs out of extra board men, and takes my helper, moves him to a foreman job on a one man job, like a grain train...he gets to claim a days pay both as a helper, and another days pay as a foreman, as long as he went on duty as a helper before they moved him...I get to claim two days foreman pay for being forced to work shorthanded.... if they force him from a helper position to a helper position, he claims two days pay at helper rates. Yard crew rates and Road crew rates are a little different, road crews get the mileage. By the way, one of the conductors unoffical duites is to make sure the crew gets every dime that can, based on the local work rules.!! You new guys will find the old heads quite willing to teach you how that works! As for being forced to perform work past the twelve hour limit...you dont refuse to do so, but you make sure that they understand that you are doing so under protest...and then you call your union griever asap...he will notify the FRA...after that its their ball of wax.... When you tie up at the end of work, you fill out a basic form in your railroads computer system, which included a FRA work time form...time on duty, time of first meal, time of second meal if you work past 8 hours, and overtime, (over 8) and when you hit the hours of service, dead head time, when the transportation arrived to pick you up, when did you get in the van, when did it arrive back at your terminal...all of the info needed, and you print it off. A hard copy goes to the FRA, and you keep a hard copy... Its awful hard for the railroads to cheat on this. If they do, the national and local contracts allow for you to "fine " them by claiming pay, (time slips in lieu of actual fines)...and if they repeatedly fudge it, the FRA will step in and fine them. A good rule book shark can, on a road crew, almost double your days pay. Again, a lot of this depends on your local contract. Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply 12 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
QUOTE: Originally posted by ValleyX csxengr., I'm going to put here what two different FRA men have told me, if you're dead on the law and you're going to leave a train setting somewhere, despite the fact that you're dead, you'd better take time to put the handbrakes on because they both put the emphasis on the fact that God himself wouldn't be able to help you if that train rolled away and they would not be able to help you because you failed to leave the train secured and your only excuse was that your Hours of Service had expired. So, when you go dead, better tie it down, they're looking the other way for a grace period.
QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98 QUOTE: Originally posted by drfizzix CSXEngineer.... one dumb question to follow up on this here... so the "tie-up" time after you have parked the train and are waiting for your taxi is still considered "on-duty" for purposes of hours-of-service law, correct? [%-)] the time that you sit and wait for a taxi and taxi ride back to your termianl is considered limbo time...you are still on duty since you havnt marked off of duty yet...but you are no longer alowed to proform any type of service... when your 12 hours is up...its up... going back and even tieing a handbreak on a locomotive after 12 hours is considered proforming service and is a willfull violation of the hours of service laws...stoping and tieing your train down should all be done befor your 12 hours is up... csx engineer
QUOTE: Originally posted by drfizzix CSXEngineer.... one dumb question to follow up on this here... so the "tie-up" time after you have parked the train and are waiting for your taxi is still considered "on-duty" for purposes of hours-of-service law, correct? [%-)]
QUOTE: Originally posted by drfizzix To answer one of your questions Chris, generally if the FRA levies fines or sanctions, they are almost always against the railroad company, not against individual railroad employees, unless an employee caused an injury or fatality from grossly negligent behavior. To attempt to answer your other question (if I understand it correctly), the railroad crew callers (which are seperate from dispatchers at least on Class 1's and most regional lines) are responsible for ensuring that train serv ice employees are given an adequate amount of rest time under HOS laws, although GCOR states that it is also the trainman's responsibility to inform the crew caller and / or other supervisors in the event a crew caller makes an error that violates HOS rest time requirements. The FRA does have the authority to police these violations too, but I am not sure that they do much pro-active policing, especially on shortline railroads, unless they have a specific reason to be concerned about a particular railroad or division.
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