crew rest article

[Anonymous]

Todays LA times has a large article about wrecks caused by tired crews. Do most train crews work 60 +hours per week. Whats the legal limit? In trucking its 70 hours in 8 days,or 60 hrs in 7 days all depending on how the driver logs .

[Anonymous]

The only limitations that I am aware of are the 12 and 8 "Hours of Service Law" meaning 12 hours on duty maximum, followed by 8 hours off duty minimum. Most "road" train service crews, at least on Class 1's and most regional rail lines, commonly work 60 - 80 hours per week, although strictly by the Hours of Service Law, it would be possible to be worked even more than that in theory.

[csxengineer98]

if you are on duty for more then 12 hours..you are reqired to have a minimum of 12 hours off too...
csx engineer

[Randy Stahl]

QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98

if you are on duty for more then 12 hours..you are reqired to have a minimum of 12 hours off too...
csx engineer

Make that 10 hours off and you got a deal

[ValleyX]

The law requires ten hours off when working a full twelve and not relieved of responsiblity by the end of twelve. NS gives all road crews ten hours UNDISTURBED rest in their home terminal, note that this wouldn't apply to those being called for yard jobs. Undisturbed means that the phone won't ring until the end of ten hours.

[K. P. Harrier]

Altamont Press picked up the story. The link is below.

http://www.railroadnews.net/news/4-25.html

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ValleyX

The law requires ten hours off when working a full twelve and not relieved of responsiblity by the end of twelve. NS gives all road crews ten hours UNDISTURBED rest in their home terminal, note that this wouldn't apply to those being called for yard jobs. Undisturbed means that the phone won't ring until the end of ten hours.

10 hours undisturbed translates into 12 hours if you get a 2 hour call... so its actuly 12 hours rest...
csx engineer

[ValleyX]

Yeah, except for that troublesome getting up to answer the phone part.[swg] You're right, though, that's how they look at it.

[Anonymous]

Actually the federal minimum is 10 hours "off duty", which for railroads with a 2 hour call time, this would mean 8 hours minimum before being called for duty.

This is according to CFR Title 49 Part 228.19(a)(2) which can be accessed online at http://eCFR.GPOAccess.gov/ .

Now many railroads have off-duty requirements that may exceed these numbers, but these are the minimum FRA requirements. [:)]

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by drfizzix

Actually the federal minimum is 10 hours "off duty", which for railroads with a 2 hour call time, this would mean 8 hours minimum before being called for duty.

This is according to CFR Title 49 Part 228.19(a)(2) which can be accessed online at http://eCFR.GPOAccess.gov/ .

Now many railroads have off-duty requirements that may exceed these numbers, but these are the minimum FRA requirements. [:)]

no..its not..that only applays if are marked off of duty befor your 12 hours is up..if you are on duty longer then 12 hours...( you tie your train down at 12 hours..and then sit for another hour waiting for a taxi..and then another hour dead head back home...you are on duty 14 hours..which means your required to have 12 hours rest....)and being called for duty at 10 hours for a 12 hour call is still considered 12 hours rest
csx engineer
csx engineer

[mvlandsw]

drfizzix has it right.

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mvlandsw

drfizzix has it right.

my bad...i missed a key point... i stand corrected...
please disregard my bablings befor...lol
csx engineer

[Anonymous]

You had me worried there for a moment [:)]... a I said, this is my understanding of the Federal Law as stated by the above reference. If there is another part of the Federal Code that I have missed, I would certainly like to know, especially as I am still in the training phase of my railroad career with BNSF and really have not had to deal with these issues yet [:)] [banghead] .

I realize that actual railroad operating practices will vary and likely provide additional time beyond the minimum federal requirements outlined by the cited CFR as no railroad wants to risk being in violation of FRA-related laws and regulations. [:(]

[Anonymous]

CSXEngineer.... one dumb question to follow up on this here... so the "tie-up" time after you have parked the train and are waiting for your taxi is still considered "on-duty" for purposes of hours-of-service law, correct? [%-)]

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by drfizzix

CSXEngineer.... one dumb question to follow up on this here... so the "tie-up" time after you have parked the train and are waiting for your taxi is still considered "on-duty" for purposes of hours-of-service law, correct? [%-)]

It is not considered on duty for HOS purposes, it is on the clock for pay purposes and the rest period does not start until you have FINALLY put off at the destination terminal.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BaltACD

QUOTE: Originally posted by drfizzix

CSXEngineer.... one dumb question to follow up on this here... so the "tie-up" time after you have parked the train and are waiting for your taxi is still considered "on-duty" for purposes of hours-of-service law, correct? [%-)]

It is not considered on duty for HOS purposes, it is on the clock for pay purposes and the rest period does not start until you have FINALLY put off at the destination terminal.

OK really dumb question time,...do they pay by the hour ot by the trip/mileage?

I ask because I had always assumed they payed by the hour,..but when interviewing for conductor with NS recently, they gave me the impression that it was more a matter of pay for miles per trip than hours...

[ChrisBARailfan]

I have another question, is it the railroad who polices the dispatchers in terms of giving enough time off? And if a violation is incurred who will bear the brunt of the trouble?

[Anonymous]

To answer one of your questions Chris, generally if the FRA levies fines or sanctions, they are almost always against the railroad company, not against individual railroad employees, unless an employee caused an injury or fatality from grossly negligent behavior.

To attempt to answer your other question (if I understand it correctly), the railroad crew callers (which are seperate from dispatchers at least on Class 1's and most regional lines) are responsible for ensuring that train serv ice employees are given an adequate amount of rest time under HOS laws, although GCOR states that it is also the trainman's responsibility to inform the crew caller and / or other supervisors in the event a crew caller makes an error that violates HOS rest time requirements.

The FRA does have the authority to police these violations too, but I am not sure that they do much pro-active policing, especially on shortline railroads, unless they have a specific reason to be concerned about a particular railroad or division.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

QUOTE: Originally posted by BaltACD

QUOTE: Originally posted by drfizzix

CSXEngineer.... one dumb question to follow up on this here... so the "tie-up" time after you have parked the train and are waiting for your taxi is still considered "on-duty" for purposes of hours-of-service law, correct? [%-)]

It is not considered on duty for HOS purposes, it is on the clock for pay purposes and the rest period does not start until you have FINALLY put off at the destination terminal.

OK really dumb question time,...do they pay by the hour ot by the trip/mileage?

I ask because I had always assumed they payed by the hour,..but when interviewing for conductor with NS recently, they gave me the impression that it was more a matter of pay for miles per trip than hours...

Well, I have heard of union labor agreements that have gone with both payment methods..... all I can say is I hope the poor guys on UP aren't on the mileage plan, because they certainly would be broke in that case [:D] .

[edblysard]

Depends on the local contract, but there is a basic days pay, based on a hourly pay, then mileage, away from home terminal pay, short hand pay, and depending on when you were hired, productivity pay.

If you are ordered to violate a rule, say, couple up the air on more than one double over, the crew can timeslip the railroad, (claim a work rule violation) and get another days basic pay.

If you work the extra board, or pool service, and the crew caller runs around you, (calls the guy in line behind you,even though you were rested and ready for duty, based on when you tied up) thats a days pay on a time slip.

A lot of this depends on the local contract, but the national contract inculdes most of it also.

Dead head counts against rest time, and if you worked the full 12, then have dead head, you are forbidden for performing anything considered work for the railroad, after 12 hours on duty, you cant even tie up in the computer, you have to do that once your back on duty next day...
Your offical rest time starts when you reach the terminal...
So if they leave you out there 5 hours, they have to pay you five extra hours, on overtime, and the time it takes to get you back to the terminal.

When you hog out, you tell the dispatcher when your getting tight on time, although most of them have a good idea how long you been on duty, and often ask you when your hours of service are...the dispatcher will notify a cab, and the crew caller, whose duty is to keep track of all of the crews times, and who is rested, whos not...they will call out the relief crew.

Again, slightly different by road, but thats the basics.

Weird local example..

On my road, if the carrier runs out of extra board men, and takes my helper, moves him to a foreman job on a one man job, like a grain train...he gets to claim a days pay both as a helper, and another days pay as a foreman, as long as he went on duty as a helper before they moved him...I get to claim two days foreman pay for being forced to work shorthanded....
if they force him from a helper position to a helper position, he claims two days pay at helper rates.

Yard crew rates and Road crew rates are a little different, road crews get the mileage.

By the way, one of the conductors unoffical duites is to make sure the crew gets every dime that can, based on the local work rules.!!

You new guys will find the old heads quite willing to teach you how that works!

As for being forced to perform work past the twelve hour limit...you dont refuse to do so, but you make sure that they understand that you are doing so under protest...and then you call your union griever asap...he will notify the FRA...after that its their ball of wax....

When you tie up at the end of work, you fill out a basic form in your railroads computer system, which included a FRA work time form...time on duty, time of first meal, time of second meal if you work past 8 hours, and overtime, (over 8) and when you hit the hours of service, dead head time, when the transportation arrived to pick you up, when did you get in the van, when did it arrive back at your terminal...all of the info needed, and you print it off.

A hard copy goes to the FRA, and you keep a hard copy...

Its awful hard for the railroads to cheat on this.

If they do, the national and local contracts allow for you to "fine " them by claiming pay, (time slips in lieu of actual fines)...and if they repeatedly fudge it, the FRA will step in and fine them.

A good rule book shark can, on a road crew, almost double your days pay.

Again, a lot of this depends on your local contract.

Ed

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by drfizzix

To answer one of your questions Chris, generally if the FRA levies fines or sanctions, they are almost always against the railroad company, not against individual railroad employees, unless an employee caused an injury or fatality from grossly negligent behavior.

To attempt to answer your other question (if I understand it correctly), the railroad crew callers (which are seperate from dispatchers at least on Class 1's and most regional lines) are responsible for ensuring that train serv ice employees are given an adequate amount of rest time under HOS laws, although GCOR states that it is also the trainman's responsibility to inform the crew caller and / or other supervisors in the event a crew caller makes an error that violates HOS rest time requirements.

The FRA does have the authority to police these violations too, but I am not sure that they do much pro-active policing, especially on shortline railroads, unless they have a specific reason to be concerned about a particular railroad or division.

thats only partly true on the fines...i think we rehashed this in another tread not to long ago...but if the crew dose a willfull violation of the hours of service...the FRA can fine the crew responsable directly.... if its not a willfull violation..meaning they where ordred by someone in the managment tree..such as a dispatchor or any managment personel..(trainmasters roadformans terminal managers)... the fine would then be brough on the offical responsable...and the odds are it then would be picked up the the company...
i know we did a thead on this not to long ago... ***ed if ican remember the title of it now.....
csx engineer

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by drfizzix

CSXEngineer.... one dumb question to follow up on this here... so the "tie-up" time after you have parked the train and are waiting for your taxi is still considered "on-duty" for purposes of hours-of-service law, correct? [%-)]

the time that you sit and wait for a taxi and taxi ride back to your termianl is considered limbo time...you are still on duty since you havnt marked off of duty yet...but you are no longer alowed to proform any type of service... when your 12 hours is up...its up... going back and even tieing a handbreak on a locomotive after 12 hours is considered proforming service and is a willfull violation of the hours of service laws...stoping and tieing your train down should all be done befor your 12 hours is up...
csx engineer

[ChrisBARailfan]

Thanks, that answers my questions, and boy am I glad I work in a salaried 9 to 5 job, all those changes and options would be too much for me. [:D]

Thanks again.

Chris

[CSXrules4eva]

Chris I'm in school now actually I'm on an apprenticship job at a diesel serviceing shop and my days when I work are generally 9 or 10 hours a day. When I got to school it's 7hrs sometimes it's a lot less depending on my professors. I think I'll defanitly have to get used to working 60hr work weeks when I get hired out on the railroad :( I couldn't play ice hockey anymore :( but, I love trains more than I do ice hockey so it would work out.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98

QUOTE: Originally posted by drfizzix

CSXEngineer.... one dumb question to follow up on this here... so the "tie-up" time after you have parked the train and are waiting for your taxi is still considered "on-duty" for purposes of hours-of-service law, correct? [%-)]

the time that you sit and wait for a taxi and taxi ride back to your termianl is considered limbo time...you are still on duty since you havnt marked off of duty yet...but you are no longer alowed to proform any type of service... when your 12 hours is up...its up... going back and even tieing a handbreak on a locomotive after 12 hours is considered proforming service and is a willfull violation of the hours of service laws...stoping and tieing your train down should all be done befor your 12 hours is up...
csx engineer

Thank you for the information CSXengineer [8D]. I apologize for the misunderstanding of the other post regarding FRA fines..... my main point was that usually the crew is ** usually ** only fined in cases of very willful violations (including the ones you described), which I should have been more clear on. [B)]

[ValleyX]

csxengr., I'm going to put here what two different FRA men have told me, if you're dead on the law and you're going to leave a train setting somewhere, despite the fact that you're dead, you'd better take time to put the handbrakes on because they both put the emphasis on the fact that God himself wouldn't be able to help you if that train rolled away and they would not be able to help you because you failed to leave the train secured and your only excuse was that your Hours of Service had expired. So, when you go dead, better tie it down, they're looking the other way for a grace period.

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ValleyX

csxengr., I'm going to put here what two different FRA men have told me, if you're dead on the law and you're going to leave a train setting somewhere, despite the fact that you're dead, you'd better take time to put the handbrakes on because they both put the emphasis on the fact that God himself wouldn't be able to help you if that train rolled away and they would not be able to help you because you failed to leave the train secured and your only excuse was that your Hours of Service had expired. So, when you go dead, better tie it down, they're looking the other way for a grace period.

vally...im not saying that you are to laeve the train not tied down when its going to be left unattended...all i am saying is.... if the FRA wants to be A-holes..and they see you.... they can fine you for tieing your train down after the 12 hours are up.... it should all be done befor you expire.... i know you have to bend the rules from time to time..... but the point i was making is that if you do it after the 12 hours...its considered a willfull violation and you can be fined for doing it...
csx engineer

[edblysard]

Also,
Keep in mind both the train crew and the dispatcher know how much time they have, and if they can or can not reach where they want to go.
If it is a sideing they use frenquently, the crew has a good idea how long it takes to tie it down, they hustle it up some to make sure they make it.
It is rare for a crew to hit the hours of service un prepared...by the end of their time, they have it all tied down, and feed back called in, a cab on the way, and a cup of coffee to sip!

As a last resort, because it is a FRA violation to leave a train with no hand brakes applied, if a crew manages to die with out tieing it down,,,you can use the rule that allows for a crew to sit on a train and locomotive with no hand brakes, as long as one crew member is in position to apply the air brakes..a qualified crew member must be on the locomotive...so they sit there till a relief crew shows up, and one member of that crew is on board, they can then release the train to that crew...

If your question was how often does a train crew die out in the middle of nowhere with their train blocking everything...rare.
It happens, but not often, and the dispatcher will get his or her fanny chewed badly, not to mention the crew will have to explain to the TM why htey didnt make it any easier on the dispatcher...

We all work together to prevent this from happening...

Ed

[ValleyX]

Coffee's usually all gone by the end of 12 or else it's getting a little gamey, Ed.

All I'm saying is that if you pull up there at the last minute, all out of time, they're going to give you ten minutes or so to tie the train down, I've been told this on separate occasions by two different FRA inspectors. I realize what csx is saying could be true but I know I'm not leaving it unsecured.

As for a crew member being on the train and not tying it down, that crew is dead and if it isn't tied down then they're performing service by being there, then that's a willful violation, much more serious than tying it down immediately upon expiration of 12 hours

[edblysard]

Two thermoses...yours and the engineers..Drink his first...

And "they" meaning the FRA don’t give you a grace period...12 hours are 12 hours...

I have never had a road job die without tying the train down; they know how long it takes and act accordingly.

I have worked a yard job, in one of our small yards, way out in the boonies, where we were order to work right up to the limit.

I informed the tower operator (who is our dispatcher, we work in RTC) that we wouldn’t have time to secure the train.

He said don’t worry, keep working.

I protested.

He insisted.

I said yes, but under protest.

He said a crew is on the way in the cab to relieve us, stop at 12 and sit.

Crew/cab shows up, followed by the FRA field agent.

Agent said we can do that, run right up to the limit, and then sit in the cab and wait.

My engineer said the same you did, that’s performing service.

FRA said no, that’s not service.

He told me part of the rules that states, in essence, if a emergency exists, such as the train would cause a "clear and obvious danger to other railroad employees and the public in general, work can be performed, but only to the extent to allow the original crew to remove the danger."

He stated that if something like that did occur, he wanted to know about it...

He also told me that as long as a qualified crew member is on board, and able to secure the train if needed, that was ok too.

We can do that, and as soon as another crew shows up, and boards the train, it becomes their train, and their problem.

According to him, the presence of the crew member on the locomotive does not constitute service, but does equate to the train being secured.

We had several instances of something like this a few years ago, a gung ho new "dispatcher" running our road crews right up to the limit, then making them sit till a relief crew arrived.

Our engineers local, and the switchman’s local contacted both the FRA and the Texas Railroad Commission...they both said the same basic thing.

As long as a crew member is on the train, regardless of whether they have hog lawed or not, the train is secured, hand brakes or not.
Sitting on a train after your hours of service are up does not constitute service to the carrier, but does constitute fulfilling your duty to "secure" the train.

I have a letter from the TRRC on our bulletin board at work, from the TRRC inspector addressing this issue...I will bring it home sat and include it in a post.

Both the FRA and the TRRC want us to document this when it happens, to see if there is a pattern to it.

If there is, they both indicated that they would issue a work practice recommendation to our carrier.

So, if I worked for, say BNSF, and we were running out in the middle of nowhere, at 11:59 minutes, my engineer could apply the brakes...we stop, and sit.

You are not performing service for the carrier, can not be forced to move the train, don’t have to answer the radio (except in an emergency) and as long as you are on board (sitting on the porch, in the cab, on the steps, physically on the locomotive) the FRA consider it secure within the GCOR provisions.

The above is the exact situation I described to the FRA guy, and his response.
So I guess to boils down to the local FRA inspector’s interpretation of the law, if your guys say you can have ten grace minutes, great, but mine doesn’t.

Ed