Originally posted by PNWRMNM SPBED, Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply PNWRMNM Member sinceMay 2003 From: US 2,593 posts Posted by PNWRMNM on Thursday, April 7, 2005 1:23 PM SPBED, Once a car gets in the system it gets handled with the normal flow. It is not worth the trouble to sharpshoot the traffic as you describe. If you hold cars you have to have a hold track, you have to switch it now and then, and you are paying car hire on the cars. I do not know if it still aplies, but the scrappers in the last years of regulation got special hold downs when other products took general rate increases, which had the effect of depressing their rates relative to other matierials. Nice of the ICC to force the rails to subsidize the scrappers wasn't it? Mac Reply dldance Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Near Promentory UT 1,590 posts Posted by dldance on Thursday, April 7, 2005 10:34 AM In spite of the gripes - there is a lot of scrap moving by rail. The margins are so thin that moving much scrap by truck is almost out of the question. dd ps - a daylight ride on Amtak most anywhere will pass a lot of scrap yards that confirm mud's statements. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, April 7, 2005 6:22 AM Thank you. While I never worked in the RR industry I was a manager in the steamship industry. Since there were always more import loads then export loads we would have to load empties to balance out the system. No matter if a container is loaded or empty you have to pay the stevedore for the lift on here & the lift off at discharge. So we came up with a plan to take the highest possible rates for loading & unloading then add in a profit & offer that rate to what we termed very "low paying cargo" like scrap & used newspapers. That insured that the low paying freight was paying to return a empty steamship container not the steamship line. if we got lucky & booked higher revenue cargo well we would just leave behind the low paying freight on the dock for the next vessel. That cycle would continue vessel after vessel after vessel. i'm am sure something similar occurs with scrap in the RR biz. [:o)][:D] QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken Scrap metal operators/ recyclers survive under the thinnest of margins. This has been a fact for as long as I can remember. SPbed is correct. What the scrappers ought to print in their industry rag, but won't, is a request to get their own houses in order. From a trackman's perspective: (1) The maintenance of their facilities is non-existant. Track is in terrible shape. (2) They do a poor job (Most, but not all) of keeping the area around tracks clear. These industries are like minefields to any switchman that has to work them. (3) There are enough jury-rigged devices around these tracks to either kill or maim dozens with clearance, stumbling and other assorted hazzards. (4) You go to inform these folks to fix something before somebody gets hurt and all you get is bellyaches about shipping rates. It is a two way street, they just do not see it until the OSHA or FRA man come to hit them where it hurts. As soon as the inspector leaves, it's back to business as usual. [soapbox][soapbox][soapbox] Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Posted by zardoz on Thursday, April 7, 2005 6:07 AM I agree with what everyone says about the safety (or lack thereof) in the scrap facilities. I sustained my only railroad work injury when as a brakeman switching a scrap facility at night, I stepped on some scrap metal buried in muck (broke my ankle); in addition, I now work at a metal recycling center (fancy name for a junk yard [but don't let the boss hear you call it 'junk']), so I can attest to the conditions in some scrap yards (actually we do keep ours clean). My intention of the original post was to show how some shippers view the railroads and their operations, as well as the program that BNSF uses. I thought it was interesting. Reply PNWRMNM Member sinceMay 2003 From: US 2,593 posts Posted by PNWRMNM on Thursday, April 7, 2005 12:57 AM Junctiuon, The most practical solution is to not switch the place until it is safe. Railroad management seldom has the guts to do that. Mac Reply Junctionfan Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: St.Catharines, Ontario 3,770 posts Posted by Junctionfan on Wednesday, April 6, 2005 7:51 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken Scrap metal operators/ recyclers survive under the thinnest of margins. This has been a fact for as long as I can remember. SPbed is correct. What the scrappers ought to print in their industry rag, but won't, is a request to get their own houses in order. From a trackman's perspective: (1) The maintenance of their facilities is non-existant. Track is in terrible shape. (2) They do a poor job (Most, but not all) of keeping the area around tracks clear. These industries are like minefields to any switchman that has to work them. (3) There are enough jury-rigged devices around these tracks to either kill or maim dozens with clearance, stumbling and other assorted hazzards. (4) You go to inform these folks to fix something before somebody gets hurt and all you get is bellyaches about shipping rates. It is a two way street, they just do not see it until the OSHA or FRA man come to hit them where it hurts. As soon as the inspector leaves, it's back to business as usual. [soapbox][soapbox][soapbox] That is a pretty good reason for the switching delays but what about the loads on the trains; the in terminal waits? Have the railroads publicly told them the reasons for this so everybody else listening hears this? If no than they should because I agree with the railroads in that why should their workers get injured in that kind of a mess particularly if the load isn't worth that much to begin with. I was fortunate to be able to have the opportunity to tag along with Trillium's St.Catharines switching crew and when we went in to pull out some of those DJJX high side gondolas, that yard was actually pretty decent looking. Obviously then this is not the norm for every scrapyard. Can the scrapyards be reported for any safety violations or is there any way that the railroads can file grievences through an agency to have them ensure that their switching crews are not put in unnecessary harms-way because that particular customer is messy. Andrew Reply UPTRAIN Member sinceJune 2002 From: Independence, MO 1,570 posts Posted by UPTRAIN on Wednesday, April 6, 2005 6:55 PM Crew member: 1 Dog: 0. Pump Reply edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Wednesday, April 6, 2005 5:53 PM I will second mudchickens statements... We serve two scrappers on the PTRA... If given the choice of walking a120 car grain train in the middle of august, or spotting a pair of gons in either ones of these plants,,,the grain train wins, every time. What he forgot to mention are the guard dogs...on hand to keep the thieves from raiding the place...and they are very good at keeping switchmen from pulling the empties and spotting the loads. Filithy beyond what you could ever dream up, and in both of these places, the tracks disappear into the dirt, and are often covered up with scrap spilled from the gons you are supposed to pull. We bad order these places two out of every three times, no walkways, (they are there, just buried in junk) no lights, no keepers on the gates, or the gates no longer have a railroad lock, and we can't get in...along with the dogs loose inside the fence... One of our switchmen did a dog in recently, it was hiding under the car he was sent to pull, and attacked him. He grabbed the first thing at hand, which happened to be a aluminum I beam, and whacked it on the head...while he was backing up between a dumpster and the gon. He said it dropped like a rock, must have got in a lucky shot! He also ended up getting several stiches on his arm, which got sliced on some coiled steel scraps leaning against the dumpster, along with a tetnus shot... And the scrapper complained over the dog, and the fact the switchman didnt pull the empty, and spot the load before calling a relief! Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Wednesday, April 6, 2005 5:26 PM The scrap dealers lobbying group's statement about not giving a high priority to low rates in one of the most bizarre statements I have run across in a long time. Only a scrap dealer could make such a statement. When we got people off the training program we use to let them make scrap rates as a baptism under fire in the real world far, far away from their University campus. Bob Reply mudchicken Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Denver / La Junta 10,820 posts Posted by mudchicken on Wednesday, April 6, 2005 2:31 PM Scrap metal operators/ recyclers survive under the thinnest of margins. This has been a fact for as long as I can remember. SPbed is correct. What the scrappers ought to print in their industry rag, but won't, is a request to get their own houses in order. From a trackman's perspective: (1) The maintenance of their facilities is non-existant. Track is in terrible shape. (2) They do a poor job (Most, but not all) of keeping the area around tracks clear. These industries are like minefields to any switchman that has to work them. (3) There are enough jury-rigged devices around these tracks to either kill or maim dozens with clearance, stumbling and other assorted hazzards. (4) You go to inform these folks to fix something before somebody gets hurt and all you get is bellyaches about shipping rates. It is a two way street, they just do not see it until the OSHA or FRA man come to hit them where it hurts. As soon as the inspector leaves, it's back to business as usual. [soapbox][soapbox][soapbox] Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west Reply Junctionfan Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: St.Catharines, Ontario 3,770 posts Posted by Junctionfan on Wednesday, April 6, 2005 11:57 AM I think BNSF's policy is a good idea. The rest of the railroads should follow suit. How many employees does BNSF have in the operations (engine crews, yard crews)? How does it compare with the other railroads? Andrew Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, April 6, 2005 10:57 AM In short scrap is low paying cargo, gets non priority service no difference then used newspapers or other similar very cheap commodities. [:o)][8D] Originally posted by zardoz [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Shipping Scrap Metal by Rail Posted by zardoz on Wednesday, April 6, 2005 10:46 AM The following are excerpts taken from the March/April 2005 issue of Scrap (www.scrap.org). Article by Lynn R. Novelli. In a survey conducted by ISRI (Institute of Scrap Recycling Industries) last July, 88% of the respondents rated rail transportation as "somewhat" to "very important" to their companies. Unfortunately, almost as many--82%--rated the railroads' service as "fair" to "poor". "Service is the most important issue to scrap shippers", says Steve Hirsch (of the ISRI). 79% of respondents rated consistency and reliability as the most important elements of rail service, outweighing price more than 6 to 1. "Declines in transport speed, extended dwell times and turnaround times, and lack of power on the rail lines contribute to a domino effect", says Doug Starosta, a member of the ISRI. "If the railroads were fluent, it would help the railcar situation tremendously", he says. "That's also why throwing more cars on the line will just bottlekneck the system more and not solve the problem". In a report by Tom Pellington, senior director of transportation for the David J. Joseph Co. (Cincinnati) says the UP has experienced a 4% decline in train speed and a 6% increase in dwell time. CSX has seen their speed decline by 9% and dwell times increase by 13%, NS speeds declined by 7% and dwell times increase by 2%. Only the BNSF has come closest to holding speeds steady with only a 1% decrease in speed with a 0% increase in dwell times. According to the National Industrial Transportation League, Class 1 track mileage has declined by 100,000 miles in the last 20 years, from 270,000 in 1980 to 170,000 in 2002. In that same period, the number of railroad employees slid from 450,000 to 150,000. Meanwhile, the number of carloads has grown by 6,000,000. Also, the railroads are still trying to sort out the problems stemming from their various mergers, says Greg Dixon, chair of ISRI's rail transportation task force. For instance, mergers have made it necessary for railroads to integrate lines, and service has suffered as a result. In addition to the above challenges, railroads face shareholder pressure to perform well financially--not an easy task in the capital-intensive rail business, says Dennis Wilmot, president of Wilmot Logistics, a logistics consulting and railcar supply and management company in Aurora, OH. "Unlike highways that are supported by public monies, the rails belong to the railroad, which have to answer to shareholders who want a decent return on investment". To add to the pressure, the federal Surface Transportation Board requires railroads to show a 20% return on investment to be deemed profitable. Unfortunately for shippers, the railroads' focus on cost reduction to satisfy shareholders has coincided with an upswing in the global economy. At the time when shippers need service the most, railroads have cut their personnel and aren't investing in infrastructure and equipment. An option for some shippers is paying a premium for cars to ensure their availability abd delivery. BNSF is a leader in this area; they developed an innovative program that requires shippers to pay a premium price for cars but also guarantees their availability. Under its Load Origination Guarantee Service (LOGS) program, shippers can bid on available gondolas, and the cars go to the highest bidder. What makes this program a success, says Starosta, is that the shipper with the winning bid is guaranteed to receive the number of cars ordered on time or BNSF pays the shipper a $200-per-car penalty. The LOGS program not only gives the shipper peace of mind, it also helps the railroad plan for car allotments, Starosta explains. According to Starosta and Wilmot, the single most important element in improving rail service is for shippers to accurately forecast their needs. "When the railroads know in advance what to plan for in cars, power, and crews, they can stay fluent". "The railroads appreciate at least a 6-12 month forecast". ISRI's task force is attempting to meet with the railroads to lay the problems on the table in a nonadversarial way. "I'm hopeful that opening up a dialog and addressing the issues will at least start improving the situation", Dixon says. "Our members have been persistent and have worked their way up the chain-of-command at the railroads to make their voices heard", he says. "And we feel the railroads have been trying to figure out strategies that work for both sides". Reply 12 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub
QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken Scrap metal operators/ recyclers survive under the thinnest of margins. This has been a fact for as long as I can remember. SPbed is correct. What the scrappers ought to print in their industry rag, but won't, is a request to get their own houses in order. From a trackman's perspective: (1) The maintenance of their facilities is non-existant. Track is in terrible shape. (2) They do a poor job (Most, but not all) of keeping the area around tracks clear. These industries are like minefields to any switchman that has to work them. (3) There are enough jury-rigged devices around these tracks to either kill or maim dozens with clearance, stumbling and other assorted hazzards. (4) You go to inform these folks to fix something before somebody gets hurt and all you get is bellyaches about shipping rates. It is a two way street, they just do not see it until the OSHA or FRA man come to hit them where it hurts. As soon as the inspector leaves, it's back to business as usual. [soapbox][soapbox][soapbox]
Pump
23 17 46 11
Originally posted by zardoz [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Shipping Scrap Metal by Rail Posted by zardoz on Wednesday, April 6, 2005 10:46 AM The following are excerpts taken from the March/April 2005 issue of Scrap (www.scrap.org). Article by Lynn R. Novelli. In a survey conducted by ISRI (Institute of Scrap Recycling Industries) last July, 88% of the respondents rated rail transportation as "somewhat" to "very important" to their companies. Unfortunately, almost as many--82%--rated the railroads' service as "fair" to "poor". "Service is the most important issue to scrap shippers", says Steve Hirsch (of the ISRI). 79% of respondents rated consistency and reliability as the most important elements of rail service, outweighing price more than 6 to 1. "Declines in transport speed, extended dwell times and turnaround times, and lack of power on the rail lines contribute to a domino effect", says Doug Starosta, a member of the ISRI. "If the railroads were fluent, it would help the railcar situation tremendously", he says. "That's also why throwing more cars on the line will just bottlekneck the system more and not solve the problem". In a report by Tom Pellington, senior director of transportation for the David J. Joseph Co. (Cincinnati) says the UP has experienced a 4% decline in train speed and a 6% increase in dwell time. CSX has seen their speed decline by 9% and dwell times increase by 13%, NS speeds declined by 7% and dwell times increase by 2%. Only the BNSF has come closest to holding speeds steady with only a 1% decrease in speed with a 0% increase in dwell times. According to the National Industrial Transportation League, Class 1 track mileage has declined by 100,000 miles in the last 20 years, from 270,000 in 1980 to 170,000 in 2002. In that same period, the number of railroad employees slid from 450,000 to 150,000. Meanwhile, the number of carloads has grown by 6,000,000. Also, the railroads are still trying to sort out the problems stemming from their various mergers, says Greg Dixon, chair of ISRI's rail transportation task force. For instance, mergers have made it necessary for railroads to integrate lines, and service has suffered as a result. In addition to the above challenges, railroads face shareholder pressure to perform well financially--not an easy task in the capital-intensive rail business, says Dennis Wilmot, president of Wilmot Logistics, a logistics consulting and railcar supply and management company in Aurora, OH. "Unlike highways that are supported by public monies, the rails belong to the railroad, which have to answer to shareholders who want a decent return on investment". To add to the pressure, the federal Surface Transportation Board requires railroads to show a 20% return on investment to be deemed profitable. Unfortunately for shippers, the railroads' focus on cost reduction to satisfy shareholders has coincided with an upswing in the global economy. At the time when shippers need service the most, railroads have cut their personnel and aren't investing in infrastructure and equipment. An option for some shippers is paying a premium for cars to ensure their availability abd delivery. BNSF is a leader in this area; they developed an innovative program that requires shippers to pay a premium price for cars but also guarantees their availability. Under its Load Origination Guarantee Service (LOGS) program, shippers can bid on available gondolas, and the cars go to the highest bidder. What makes this program a success, says Starosta, is that the shipper with the winning bid is guaranteed to receive the number of cars ordered on time or BNSF pays the shipper a $200-per-car penalty. The LOGS program not only gives the shipper peace of mind, it also helps the railroad plan for car allotments, Starosta explains. According to Starosta and Wilmot, the single most important element in improving rail service is for shippers to accurately forecast their needs. "When the railroads know in advance what to plan for in cars, power, and crews, they can stay fluent". "The railroads appreciate at least a 6-12 month forecast". ISRI's task force is attempting to meet with the railroads to lay the problems on the table in a nonadversarial way. "I'm hopeful that opening up a dialog and addressing the issues will at least start improving the situation", Dixon says. "Our members have been persistent and have worked their way up the chain-of-command at the railroads to make their voices heard", he says. "And we feel the railroads have been trying to figure out strategies that work for both sides". Reply 12 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.