Originally posted by zardoz Originally posted by spbed Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Posted by zardoz on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 9:19 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed You skid & strap the scrap & then a forklift just loads it into the container. The steamship line have fixed rates for movement of containers with the RRs. Usually the more you guarantee the lower the rate in say a key corridor like LAX/Chic [:o)][:D][:p] Originally posted by daveklepper Perhaps you could do that with the cubes that come out of a compactor, but that would not work with the irregular shapes and dimensions of general scrap. Maybe if you shredded all the scrap (big, costly machine needed to do that), it might work, but only the big yards have the money needed to purchase and maintain a shredder. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 8:57 AM Shipping scrap here in Florida is very good business. Just in Tampa Alone, we serve 6 scrap loaders and get 10-15 loads daily and are shipped out the same day to processors up north. We are not concerned with the revenue part. They are our customer and are in need of our services and are handled like any other customer. The empties are allocated to the customer and are switched whenever they request a pull. There have been some instances in the past when there were a shortage of gonds, but now it is cycling very well for a low cost commodity, safety issues notwithstanding. Reply Edit spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 8:34 AM You skid & strap the scrap & then a forklift just loads it into the container. The steamship line have fixed rates for movement of containers with the RRs. Usually the more you guarantee the lower the rate in say a key corridor like LAX/Chic [:o)][:D][:p] Originally posted by daveklepper Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Posted by zardoz on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 8:27 AM Dave, Ideally, you are correct on both accounts. But from what I've seen at our scrap yard (and at others), I would not hold out too much hope of the loading being done in such a way that the car is not damaged. Even the huge 40 sq. yd. containers we use to pick up scrap from industries get a terrible beating. The containers last about two years before they need to be refurbished, and maybe another year or so after that before the structure has been compromised so much that it is non-repairable. And at about $4K each, that gets expensive. Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,048 posts Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 1:34 AM Also, why is it easier to load a container with scrap metal if it is on a truck chassis rather than on the flatcar? Finally, would not the cost savings of an all-rail container movement to the port be so great that the container could simply make a one-way trip to China as part of the scrap metal? Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,048 posts Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 3:35 PM Possibly the cost reductions, assuming really intelligent container design to minimize weight and maximize strength, would be so great as encourage the scrapyard owners to be careful in loading, not banging against sides, etc. Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Posted by zardoz on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 1:31 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper Why not use containers with tops that open and load the scrap directly into the container on the flat car at the scrapyard? The only problem with that solution is the amount of damage the container would suffer during loading (take a close look at gons used in scrap service). The flimsiness of a container would never hold up to the abuse. For the container to be strong enough, the walls and floor would have to be very thick, greatly increasing the tare weight. Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,048 posts Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 1:06 PM Why not use containers with tops that open and load the scrap directly into the container on the flat car at the scrapyard? Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Monday, April 11, 2005 8:02 AM I believe todays piggy packers or overhead cranes have scales in them so if the operater is observant there should be no overweight containers. [:p][:o)][:D] Originally posted by futuremodal Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, April 10, 2005 1:10 PM Some observations: 1. I'm not trying to be facitious here, but it sounds like some of these scrap yards with the poor trackage are themselves engaged in deferred maintenance. It could be the same problem of low margins and inability to sufficiently recover their cost of capital as the railroads experience(d). 2. If and when China finally de-pegs it's currency and allows it to float freely, you will see a shift in the movement of scrap metal from gons going stateside to otherwise empty containers heading back to Asia. China will soon be the number one market for scrap metal, if it isn't already, and it is only the currency situation that is preventing more U.S. scrap metal from heading that direction. Assuming that the dollar will be devalued relative to China's currency if it is de-pegged, that will be a boon for scrap dealers. Of course, you will then have the problem of an overweighed container of scrap having a rod or something bust through the bottom of a container in a well car and causing a derailment. Anyway, it means the truckers will have to deal with the inherent danger of scrap yards instead of railroaders, as the container loaded with scrap metal will need to be drayed to the nearest rail terminal. Reply Edit spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Sunday, April 10, 2005 8:21 AM If a employee here feels his work place is dangerous who he has to do is place a call to OSHA. From then on the Feds will handle it. [:o)][:)][:D] Originally posted by daveklepper [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,048 posts Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, April 10, 2005 8:16 AM There are laws in most States regarding safe working conditions, so my idea about contacting the Police for an obviousl safety violation is not far fetched . And it is not only railroaders that should do this but truckers also, for the benefit of both and for the benefit for those actually working in these places. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Saturday, April 9, 2005 8:07 AM Taiwan used to be the heart of the ship breakers industry now it is India. Cost to much to do it here. [:o)][:p][:)] Originally posted by corwinda Originally posted by Junctionfan Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply corwinda Member sinceJune 2001 From: US 389 posts Posted by corwinda on Friday, April 8, 2005 4:03 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan As far as scrap metal trains, I believe CSX runs a few K500 series as required. Not sure what kind of customer has that much scrap metal for a steel mill. Perhaps a yard that dismantles old ships. Or from pier to mill. Reply Junctionfan Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: St.Catharines, Ontario 3,770 posts Posted by Junctionfan on Friday, April 8, 2005 1:12 PM Movement of empty cars is a "necessary evil" in railroad profit means. The good thing is that 3 locomotives can haul 180 cars no problem as long as the grade isn't to steep. The interesting thing is that unit trains don't usually need to change cars often so it saves money on buying more railcars to replenish industries with shipping means. That is likely why railroads prefer unit trains. I know CN at one point was in preference to running unit trains. I suspect that the "Tank Train" cars of GATX was built for that kind of purpose. As far as scrap metal trains, I believe CSX runs a few K500 series as required. Not sure what kind of customer has that much scrap metal for a steel mill. Andrew Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Friday, April 8, 2005 12:13 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Bob, perhaps you can help with other accessorial charges. Typically, what other charges can a shipper expect.? Is there a charge for switching into an industry? Or is that part of the rate? Lets say NS hands off to a short line for final delivery...does NS split their rate with the short line or does that carrier also bill the customer? What about return of empty private cars? If a customer ships food oil in a private tank car...ADM, Bunge, AGP, Cargill, etc...what is the charge to return the mt tank car? Is there a mileage allowance. In general, based on loose car movements. The most common added charges are for weighing and demurage. One switch in and out of an industry is included in the rate. However, you will see caps on this because some carriers have tried to limit access with very high switching charges. Shortlines either have a contract with the connecting Class I for a fixed fee per car or they take a percentage of the through rate. The fixed fee approach is the most common with the shortline not appearing in the route on the bill of lading. Shipper owned cars are returned empty to the loading point without charge. However, if you shipped a load from TX to PA and went to send the empty out to WA there will probably be a charge in cents per mile for the extra distance. Prior to Staggers the railroads paid a feee in cents per mile to use shipper cars. It was a rate the ICC perscribed. However, in an effort to save the accounting expense, only about 10% of the traffic still moves on this basis. The rest move on so called zero mileage payout rates where the equipment cost is backed out of the rate. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,918 posts Posted by MP173 on Friday, April 8, 2005 10:42 AM I just spent a wonderful hour in the world of railroad tariffs. NS does not have published tariffs for scrap available to the general public. You must register in order to get access. In order to register, you must have an NS employee (probably sales person) sponser you. However, there were some public rates out there... But, it was interesting looking at lumber, grain, and fertilizer rates!!!! A 500 mile haul of food oil yiels about $1985 in a shipper supplied car. A 500 mile haul of grain in a greater than 5000 cf cover hopper is $2033. Joint line lumber rates for NS and CSX are in effect. The 500 mile rate is $2585 to be split between the two carriers for a big flatcar. Proportionate rates coming from another carrier at either Chicago or Streator yield $2277 for a big flat car for 500 miles. All of that revenue goes to NS. It appears that a hefty fuel surcharge is in affect. Their tariff states .4% of line haul for every $1 above $23.00 for west Texas crude. That is about 13% today. Bob, perhaps you can help with other accessorial charges. Typically, what other charges can a shipper expect.? Is there a charge for switching into an industry? Or is that part of the rate? Lets say NS hands off to a short line for final delivery...does NS split their rate with the short line or does that carrier also bill the customer? What about return of empty private cars? If a customer ships food oil in a private tank car...ADM, Bunge, AGP, Cargill, etc...what is the charge to return the mt tank car? Is there a mileage allowance. Back in the day, I worked for a small LTL carrier and we interlined with the major carriers. We would split revenue based on an old book of railroad rates. It had been published sometime in the 20's and there were "factors" for interline points such as Chicago, Indianaplis, etc. I wish I would have kept a copy. ed Reply mudchicken Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Denver / La Junta 10,794 posts Posted by mudchicken on Friday, April 8, 2005 10:16 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper Normal safety inspections by the local government authorities would solve the problem. Why don't they do it? Are they being bought off? But there is no reason why you railroaders reading this post cannot call the police after subjecting yourselves to some horror at a scrapmetal siding and report all the safety violations. If all railroaders did this consistantly would not the jobs for all be a lot safer? Sure it takes time. But time you take may prevent future injury! (1) FRA is hard stretched to inspect trackage on the common carriers, much less trackage owned by individual industries. They will come if called on a case by case basis and talk to an individual track owner (who usually feigns ignorance.) (1a) Railroads are bound to inspect only the track that they own, not neccessarilly operate over. It's up to the operating supervision to bring in a track department person to inspect out of bounds if they see something wrong. Track guys will look beyond the line where they can to spot trouble, but they cannot go out of their way. (If the forum could only see the finger pointing that goes on after a track caused derailment on industry owned track. The industry rarely wants to pay for anything, cannot justify regular maintenance and inspection costs, thinks track lasts forever and is outraged when the railroad sends it a track repair bill after a derailment or when the track deteriorates to the point the train cannot get over it and they need cars) (2) The State PUC or Railroad Commission will come out and inspect and order a track removed from service if it violates a state statute (usually road crossing or clearance issue).....there is no longer a qualified individual in Colorado to do this since the last PUC Railroad Engineer retired (he was VERY good and is now sorely missed)[V] ... again the industry feigns ignorance even though you beat them over the head with the facts after giving up on gentile persuasion long ago with them.....This is as close as you get to police daveklepper! Neither (1) or (2) wants to discourage commerce, and they try to persuade the industry to straighten out, but I have seen them pull the plug on rare occasion. (3) Chicken solution, you forbid (by sign and superintendents notice) to spot cars or have employees go past a certain point on a track where it is known to be safe and in compliance, force the industry to come get the cars. more bellyaching to be heard from the industry I personally have done (1), (2) and (3)....sometimes at the risk of getting called on the carpet by a superintendent (most understanding, some witless "Odies") after the 'supe gets his butt chewed by the shipper. [soapbox][soapbox][soapbox] Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 8, 2005 10:15 AM Well my world today is clicking on A/trade to see what is going on with my investments. However, as I said I do miss the battle of wits with the shippers. In the steamship world whatever the shipper described his shipment as was how it was rated. For guidance they were also required to furnish us with a US Customs form call a "shippers export declaration" which had a schedule "B" number. By checking that number in the schedule "B" book you would know if the shipper descripition was correct as the presumption was the shipper would not lie to the US Customs. For me it was easier as I had the authority to fix a rate without have to go to a bureau for approval as the FMC rules were so long as the rate agreed upon was lower then the filed rate. So we would file a really super hi rate & then be able to barter with the shipper for a rate that they would accept that would be lower then the filed rate. Thats what made it such fun was that the shipper wanted to pay 1/2 a widget we wanted him to pay 10 widgets. [:o)][:D][:p] Originally posted by MP173 Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Friday, April 8, 2005 9:59 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 spbed: I was a "rate man" myself....in LTL trucking. Before it was computerized, it was quite a world. Everyday there would be new tariffs and supplements from the bureaus. All to be filed away. We had the classification guide with 15 factors to determine the "class" of freight. It was pretty interesting. Today, I am in a different world, it is "what the market will bear." I like this a lot better than the old regulated days. ed MP173-I remember the joys of rating a mixed shipment only to discover the operating authority was not there on one of the commodities. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,918 posts Posted by MP173 on Friday, April 8, 2005 8:57 AM spbed: I was a "rate man" myself....in LTL trucking. Before it was computerized, it was quite a world. Everyday there would be new tariffs and supplements from the bureaus. All to be filed away. We had the classification guide with 15 factors to determine the "class" of freight. It was pretty interesting. Today, I am in a different world, it is "what the market will bear." I like this a lot better than the old regulated days. ed Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 8, 2005 8:34 AM Good luck in my very early days I used to file our rates with the FMC & attend rate meetings. I sought of enjoyed it. The best was dealing with the shippers who wonder why used newspapers pays $0.01 & photo equipment cost $100.00 a ton as a example. The battle of wits with shippers was very enjoyable to say the least. [:D][:o)][:p] Originally posted by MP173 [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,918 posts Posted by MP173 on Friday, April 8, 2005 8:29 AM Thanks spbed....should have done that. I guess it is time to enter the wonderful world of rates and tariffs again. ed Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 8, 2005 7:46 AM No maybe at the NS site they have a calculator of freight charges you can use to get the number? [:o)][:)][:D] Originally posted by spbed Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,918 posts Posted by MP173 on Friday, April 8, 2005 7:43 AM My favorite train is NS 177 which is a Chicago - Ft Wayne/Cincinnati manifest. When I hear it on the scanner, I go watch it. It almost always has at least 40 cars of scrap metal. Something sort of neat, as an economic railfan, after watching train after train of containers and auto racks to watch a REAL train with boxcars, tanks, covered hoppers, and gons loaded to the brim with scrap metal. I look at it this way...NS177 usually has 100+ cars. If 40 of those are scrap metal, then that is still a very profitable train. Anyone know where rates can be found on scrap? What would a load from Chicago to Ft. Wayne pay? ed Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 8, 2005 7:31 AM Yes heard that word a whole bunch in the S/ship industry "discrimination" used every day by shippers of low paying cargo. They use to complain to the Federal Maritime Commision. There were investigations yada, yada, yada but in the end PROFITS always was the end product of everything. Never any fines. In the S/ship industry no matter if the container was low paying cargo or high paying container it cost the same to load & unload it. I'm sure lets say from NYC to CHIC via CSX the costs to move a car of low paying freight & high paying freight is more or less the same. Again I have not been employed in the RR biz just worked very closely with them & if the RRs are not interested in making mega bucks then oh well to them. [:o)][:p][:D][:)] Originally posted by PNWRMNM SPBED Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,048 posts Posted by daveklepper on Friday, April 8, 2005 3:15 AM Normal safety inspections by the local government authorities would solve the problem. Why don't they do it? Are they being bought off? But there is no reason why you railroaders reading this post cannot call the police after subjecting yourselves to some horror at a scrapmetal siding and report all the safety violations. If all railroaders did this consistantly would not the jobs for all be a lot safer? Sure it takes time. But time you take may prevent future injury! Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 8, 2005 1:43 AM You know what? Forget the rail service to these scrap yards. Foundrys should be built nearby to melt the scrap down to pig iron or whatever we call them today. Then these loads can be shipped out of the foundry on trucks or train as revenue. Reply Edit 12 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Originally posted by spbed Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Posted by zardoz on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 9:19 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed You skid & strap the scrap & then a forklift just loads it into the container. The steamship line have fixed rates for movement of containers with the RRs. Usually the more you guarantee the lower the rate in say a key corridor like LAX/Chic [:o)][:D][:p] Originally posted by daveklepper Perhaps you could do that with the cubes that come out of a compactor, but that would not work with the irregular shapes and dimensions of general scrap. Maybe if you shredded all the scrap (big, costly machine needed to do that), it might work, but only the big yards have the money needed to purchase and maintain a shredder. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 8:57 AM Shipping scrap here in Florida is very good business. Just in Tampa Alone, we serve 6 scrap loaders and get 10-15 loads daily and are shipped out the same day to processors up north. We are not concerned with the revenue part. They are our customer and are in need of our services and are handled like any other customer. The empties are allocated to the customer and are switched whenever they request a pull. There have been some instances in the past when there were a shortage of gonds, but now it is cycling very well for a low cost commodity, safety issues notwithstanding. Reply Edit spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 8:34 AM You skid & strap the scrap & then a forklift just loads it into the container. The steamship line have fixed rates for movement of containers with the RRs. Usually the more you guarantee the lower the rate in say a key corridor like LAX/Chic [:o)][:D][:p] Originally posted by daveklepper Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Posted by zardoz on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 8:27 AM Dave, Ideally, you are correct on both accounts. But from what I've seen at our scrap yard (and at others), I would not hold out too much hope of the loading being done in such a way that the car is not damaged. Even the huge 40 sq. yd. containers we use to pick up scrap from industries get a terrible beating. The containers last about two years before they need to be refurbished, and maybe another year or so after that before the structure has been compromised so much that it is non-repairable. And at about $4K each, that gets expensive. Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,048 posts Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 1:34 AM Also, why is it easier to load a container with scrap metal if it is on a truck chassis rather than on the flatcar? Finally, would not the cost savings of an all-rail container movement to the port be so great that the container could simply make a one-way trip to China as part of the scrap metal? Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,048 posts Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 3:35 PM Possibly the cost reductions, assuming really intelligent container design to minimize weight and maximize strength, would be so great as encourage the scrapyard owners to be careful in loading, not banging against sides, etc. Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Posted by zardoz on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 1:31 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper Why not use containers with tops that open and load the scrap directly into the container on the flat car at the scrapyard? The only problem with that solution is the amount of damage the container would suffer during loading (take a close look at gons used in scrap service). The flimsiness of a container would never hold up to the abuse. For the container to be strong enough, the walls and floor would have to be very thick, greatly increasing the tare weight. Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,048 posts Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 1:06 PM Why not use containers with tops that open and load the scrap directly into the container on the flat car at the scrapyard? Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Monday, April 11, 2005 8:02 AM I believe todays piggy packers or overhead cranes have scales in them so if the operater is observant there should be no overweight containers. [:p][:o)][:D] Originally posted by futuremodal Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, April 10, 2005 1:10 PM Some observations: 1. I'm not trying to be facitious here, but it sounds like some of these scrap yards with the poor trackage are themselves engaged in deferred maintenance. It could be the same problem of low margins and inability to sufficiently recover their cost of capital as the railroads experience(d). 2. If and when China finally de-pegs it's currency and allows it to float freely, you will see a shift in the movement of scrap metal from gons going stateside to otherwise empty containers heading back to Asia. China will soon be the number one market for scrap metal, if it isn't already, and it is only the currency situation that is preventing more U.S. scrap metal from heading that direction. Assuming that the dollar will be devalued relative to China's currency if it is de-pegged, that will be a boon for scrap dealers. Of course, you will then have the problem of an overweighed container of scrap having a rod or something bust through the bottom of a container in a well car and causing a derailment. Anyway, it means the truckers will have to deal with the inherent danger of scrap yards instead of railroaders, as the container loaded with scrap metal will need to be drayed to the nearest rail terminal. Reply Edit spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Sunday, April 10, 2005 8:21 AM If a employee here feels his work place is dangerous who he has to do is place a call to OSHA. From then on the Feds will handle it. [:o)][:)][:D] Originally posted by daveklepper [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,048 posts Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, April 10, 2005 8:16 AM There are laws in most States regarding safe working conditions, so my idea about contacting the Police for an obviousl safety violation is not far fetched . And it is not only railroaders that should do this but truckers also, for the benefit of both and for the benefit for those actually working in these places. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Saturday, April 9, 2005 8:07 AM Taiwan used to be the heart of the ship breakers industry now it is India. Cost to much to do it here. [:o)][:p][:)] Originally posted by corwinda Originally posted by Junctionfan Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply corwinda Member sinceJune 2001 From: US 389 posts Posted by corwinda on Friday, April 8, 2005 4:03 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan As far as scrap metal trains, I believe CSX runs a few K500 series as required. Not sure what kind of customer has that much scrap metal for a steel mill. Perhaps a yard that dismantles old ships. Or from pier to mill. Reply Junctionfan Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: St.Catharines, Ontario 3,770 posts Posted by Junctionfan on Friday, April 8, 2005 1:12 PM Movement of empty cars is a "necessary evil" in railroad profit means. The good thing is that 3 locomotives can haul 180 cars no problem as long as the grade isn't to steep. The interesting thing is that unit trains don't usually need to change cars often so it saves money on buying more railcars to replenish industries with shipping means. That is likely why railroads prefer unit trains. I know CN at one point was in preference to running unit trains. I suspect that the "Tank Train" cars of GATX was built for that kind of purpose. As far as scrap metal trains, I believe CSX runs a few K500 series as required. Not sure what kind of customer has that much scrap metal for a steel mill. Andrew Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Friday, April 8, 2005 12:13 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Bob, perhaps you can help with other accessorial charges. Typically, what other charges can a shipper expect.? Is there a charge for switching into an industry? Or is that part of the rate? Lets say NS hands off to a short line for final delivery...does NS split their rate with the short line or does that carrier also bill the customer? What about return of empty private cars? If a customer ships food oil in a private tank car...ADM, Bunge, AGP, Cargill, etc...what is the charge to return the mt tank car? Is there a mileage allowance. In general, based on loose car movements. The most common added charges are for weighing and demurage. One switch in and out of an industry is included in the rate. However, you will see caps on this because some carriers have tried to limit access with very high switching charges. Shortlines either have a contract with the connecting Class I for a fixed fee per car or they take a percentage of the through rate. The fixed fee approach is the most common with the shortline not appearing in the route on the bill of lading. Shipper owned cars are returned empty to the loading point without charge. However, if you shipped a load from TX to PA and went to send the empty out to WA there will probably be a charge in cents per mile for the extra distance. Prior to Staggers the railroads paid a feee in cents per mile to use shipper cars. It was a rate the ICC perscribed. However, in an effort to save the accounting expense, only about 10% of the traffic still moves on this basis. The rest move on so called zero mileage payout rates where the equipment cost is backed out of the rate. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,918 posts Posted by MP173 on Friday, April 8, 2005 10:42 AM I just spent a wonderful hour in the world of railroad tariffs. NS does not have published tariffs for scrap available to the general public. You must register in order to get access. In order to register, you must have an NS employee (probably sales person) sponser you. However, there were some public rates out there... But, it was interesting looking at lumber, grain, and fertilizer rates!!!! A 500 mile haul of food oil yiels about $1985 in a shipper supplied car. A 500 mile haul of grain in a greater than 5000 cf cover hopper is $2033. Joint line lumber rates for NS and CSX are in effect. The 500 mile rate is $2585 to be split between the two carriers for a big flatcar. Proportionate rates coming from another carrier at either Chicago or Streator yield $2277 for a big flat car for 500 miles. All of that revenue goes to NS. It appears that a hefty fuel surcharge is in affect. Their tariff states .4% of line haul for every $1 above $23.00 for west Texas crude. That is about 13% today. Bob, perhaps you can help with other accessorial charges. Typically, what other charges can a shipper expect.? Is there a charge for switching into an industry? Or is that part of the rate? Lets say NS hands off to a short line for final delivery...does NS split their rate with the short line or does that carrier also bill the customer? What about return of empty private cars? If a customer ships food oil in a private tank car...ADM, Bunge, AGP, Cargill, etc...what is the charge to return the mt tank car? Is there a mileage allowance. Back in the day, I worked for a small LTL carrier and we interlined with the major carriers. We would split revenue based on an old book of railroad rates. It had been published sometime in the 20's and there were "factors" for interline points such as Chicago, Indianaplis, etc. I wish I would have kept a copy. ed Reply mudchicken Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Denver / La Junta 10,794 posts Posted by mudchicken on Friday, April 8, 2005 10:16 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper Normal safety inspections by the local government authorities would solve the problem. Why don't they do it? Are they being bought off? But there is no reason why you railroaders reading this post cannot call the police after subjecting yourselves to some horror at a scrapmetal siding and report all the safety violations. If all railroaders did this consistantly would not the jobs for all be a lot safer? Sure it takes time. But time you take may prevent future injury! (1) FRA is hard stretched to inspect trackage on the common carriers, much less trackage owned by individual industries. They will come if called on a case by case basis and talk to an individual track owner (who usually feigns ignorance.) (1a) Railroads are bound to inspect only the track that they own, not neccessarilly operate over. It's up to the operating supervision to bring in a track department person to inspect out of bounds if they see something wrong. Track guys will look beyond the line where they can to spot trouble, but they cannot go out of their way. (If the forum could only see the finger pointing that goes on after a track caused derailment on industry owned track. The industry rarely wants to pay for anything, cannot justify regular maintenance and inspection costs, thinks track lasts forever and is outraged when the railroad sends it a track repair bill after a derailment or when the track deteriorates to the point the train cannot get over it and they need cars) (2) The State PUC or Railroad Commission will come out and inspect and order a track removed from service if it violates a state statute (usually road crossing or clearance issue).....there is no longer a qualified individual in Colorado to do this since the last PUC Railroad Engineer retired (he was VERY good and is now sorely missed)[V] ... again the industry feigns ignorance even though you beat them over the head with the facts after giving up on gentile persuasion long ago with them.....This is as close as you get to police daveklepper! Neither (1) or (2) wants to discourage commerce, and they try to persuade the industry to straighten out, but I have seen them pull the plug on rare occasion. (3) Chicken solution, you forbid (by sign and superintendents notice) to spot cars or have employees go past a certain point on a track where it is known to be safe and in compliance, force the industry to come get the cars. more bellyaching to be heard from the industry I personally have done (1), (2) and (3)....sometimes at the risk of getting called on the carpet by a superintendent (most understanding, some witless "Odies") after the 'supe gets his butt chewed by the shipper. [soapbox][soapbox][soapbox] Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 8, 2005 10:15 AM Well my world today is clicking on A/trade to see what is going on with my investments. However, as I said I do miss the battle of wits with the shippers. In the steamship world whatever the shipper described his shipment as was how it was rated. For guidance they were also required to furnish us with a US Customs form call a "shippers export declaration" which had a schedule "B" number. By checking that number in the schedule "B" book you would know if the shipper descripition was correct as the presumption was the shipper would not lie to the US Customs. For me it was easier as I had the authority to fix a rate without have to go to a bureau for approval as the FMC rules were so long as the rate agreed upon was lower then the filed rate. So we would file a really super hi rate & then be able to barter with the shipper for a rate that they would accept that would be lower then the filed rate. Thats what made it such fun was that the shipper wanted to pay 1/2 a widget we wanted him to pay 10 widgets. [:o)][:D][:p] Originally posted by MP173 Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Friday, April 8, 2005 9:59 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 spbed: I was a "rate man" myself....in LTL trucking. Before it was computerized, it was quite a world. Everyday there would be new tariffs and supplements from the bureaus. All to be filed away. We had the classification guide with 15 factors to determine the "class" of freight. It was pretty interesting. Today, I am in a different world, it is "what the market will bear." I like this a lot better than the old regulated days. ed MP173-I remember the joys of rating a mixed shipment only to discover the operating authority was not there on one of the commodities. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,918 posts Posted by MP173 on Friday, April 8, 2005 8:57 AM spbed: I was a "rate man" myself....in LTL trucking. Before it was computerized, it was quite a world. Everyday there would be new tariffs and supplements from the bureaus. All to be filed away. We had the classification guide with 15 factors to determine the "class" of freight. It was pretty interesting. Today, I am in a different world, it is "what the market will bear." I like this a lot better than the old regulated days. ed Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 8, 2005 8:34 AM Good luck in my very early days I used to file our rates with the FMC & attend rate meetings. I sought of enjoyed it. The best was dealing with the shippers who wonder why used newspapers pays $0.01 & photo equipment cost $100.00 a ton as a example. The battle of wits with shippers was very enjoyable to say the least. [:D][:o)][:p] Originally posted by MP173 [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,918 posts Posted by MP173 on Friday, April 8, 2005 8:29 AM Thanks spbed....should have done that. I guess it is time to enter the wonderful world of rates and tariffs again. ed Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 8, 2005 7:46 AM No maybe at the NS site they have a calculator of freight charges you can use to get the number? [:o)][:)][:D] Originally posted by spbed Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,918 posts Posted by MP173 on Friday, April 8, 2005 7:43 AM My favorite train is NS 177 which is a Chicago - Ft Wayne/Cincinnati manifest. When I hear it on the scanner, I go watch it. It almost always has at least 40 cars of scrap metal. Something sort of neat, as an economic railfan, after watching train after train of containers and auto racks to watch a REAL train with boxcars, tanks, covered hoppers, and gons loaded to the brim with scrap metal. I look at it this way...NS177 usually has 100+ cars. If 40 of those are scrap metal, then that is still a very profitable train. Anyone know where rates can be found on scrap? What would a load from Chicago to Ft. Wayne pay? ed Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 8, 2005 7:31 AM Yes heard that word a whole bunch in the S/ship industry "discrimination" used every day by shippers of low paying cargo. They use to complain to the Federal Maritime Commision. There were investigations yada, yada, yada but in the end PROFITS always was the end product of everything. Never any fines. In the S/ship industry no matter if the container was low paying cargo or high paying container it cost the same to load & unload it. I'm sure lets say from NYC to CHIC via CSX the costs to move a car of low paying freight & high paying freight is more or less the same. Again I have not been employed in the RR biz just worked very closely with them & if the RRs are not interested in making mega bucks then oh well to them. [:o)][:p][:D][:)] Originally posted by PNWRMNM SPBED Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,048 posts Posted by daveklepper on Friday, April 8, 2005 3:15 AM Normal safety inspections by the local government authorities would solve the problem. Why don't they do it? Are they being bought off? But there is no reason why you railroaders reading this post cannot call the police after subjecting yourselves to some horror at a scrapmetal siding and report all the safety violations. If all railroaders did this consistantly would not the jobs for all be a lot safer? Sure it takes time. But time you take may prevent future injury! Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 8, 2005 1:43 AM You know what? Forget the rail service to these scrap yards. Foundrys should be built nearby to melt the scrap down to pig iron or whatever we call them today. Then these loads can be shipped out of the foundry on trucks or train as revenue. Reply Edit 12 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub
QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed You skid & strap the scrap & then a forklift just loads it into the container. The steamship line have fixed rates for movement of containers with the RRs. Usually the more you guarantee the lower the rate in say a key corridor like LAX/Chic [:o)][:D][:p] Originally posted by daveklepper Perhaps you could do that with the cubes that come out of a compactor, but that would not work with the irregular shapes and dimensions of general scrap. Maybe if you shredded all the scrap (big, costly machine needed to do that), it might work, but only the big yards have the money needed to purchase and maintain a shredder. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 8:57 AM Shipping scrap here in Florida is very good business. Just in Tampa Alone, we serve 6 scrap loaders and get 10-15 loads daily and are shipped out the same day to processors up north. We are not concerned with the revenue part. They are our customer and are in need of our services and are handled like any other customer. The empties are allocated to the customer and are switched whenever they request a pull. There have been some instances in the past when there were a shortage of gonds, but now it is cycling very well for a low cost commodity, safety issues notwithstanding. Reply Edit spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 8:34 AM You skid & strap the scrap & then a forklift just loads it into the container. The steamship line have fixed rates for movement of containers with the RRs. Usually the more you guarantee the lower the rate in say a key corridor like LAX/Chic [:o)][:D][:p] Originally posted by daveklepper Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Posted by zardoz on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 8:27 AM Dave, Ideally, you are correct on both accounts. But from what I've seen at our scrap yard (and at others), I would not hold out too much hope of the loading being done in such a way that the car is not damaged. Even the huge 40 sq. yd. containers we use to pick up scrap from industries get a terrible beating. The containers last about two years before they need to be refurbished, and maybe another year or so after that before the structure has been compromised so much that it is non-repairable. And at about $4K each, that gets expensive. Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,048 posts Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 1:34 AM Also, why is it easier to load a container with scrap metal if it is on a truck chassis rather than on the flatcar? Finally, would not the cost savings of an all-rail container movement to the port be so great that the container could simply make a one-way trip to China as part of the scrap metal? Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,048 posts Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 3:35 PM Possibly the cost reductions, assuming really intelligent container design to minimize weight and maximize strength, would be so great as encourage the scrapyard owners to be careful in loading, not banging against sides, etc. Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Posted by zardoz on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 1:31 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper Why not use containers with tops that open and load the scrap directly into the container on the flat car at the scrapyard? The only problem with that solution is the amount of damage the container would suffer during loading (take a close look at gons used in scrap service). The flimsiness of a container would never hold up to the abuse. For the container to be strong enough, the walls and floor would have to be very thick, greatly increasing the tare weight. Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,048 posts Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 1:06 PM Why not use containers with tops that open and load the scrap directly into the container on the flat car at the scrapyard? Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Monday, April 11, 2005 8:02 AM I believe todays piggy packers or overhead cranes have scales in them so if the operater is observant there should be no overweight containers. [:p][:o)][:D] Originally posted by futuremodal Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, April 10, 2005 1:10 PM Some observations: 1. I'm not trying to be facitious here, but it sounds like some of these scrap yards with the poor trackage are themselves engaged in deferred maintenance. It could be the same problem of low margins and inability to sufficiently recover their cost of capital as the railroads experience(d). 2. If and when China finally de-pegs it's currency and allows it to float freely, you will see a shift in the movement of scrap metal from gons going stateside to otherwise empty containers heading back to Asia. China will soon be the number one market for scrap metal, if it isn't already, and it is only the currency situation that is preventing more U.S. scrap metal from heading that direction. Assuming that the dollar will be devalued relative to China's currency if it is de-pegged, that will be a boon for scrap dealers. Of course, you will then have the problem of an overweighed container of scrap having a rod or something bust through the bottom of a container in a well car and causing a derailment. Anyway, it means the truckers will have to deal with the inherent danger of scrap yards instead of railroaders, as the container loaded with scrap metal will need to be drayed to the nearest rail terminal. Reply Edit spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Sunday, April 10, 2005 8:21 AM If a employee here feels his work place is dangerous who he has to do is place a call to OSHA. From then on the Feds will handle it. [:o)][:)][:D] Originally posted by daveklepper [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,048 posts Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, April 10, 2005 8:16 AM There are laws in most States regarding safe working conditions, so my idea about contacting the Police for an obviousl safety violation is not far fetched . And it is not only railroaders that should do this but truckers also, for the benefit of both and for the benefit for those actually working in these places. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Saturday, April 9, 2005 8:07 AM Taiwan used to be the heart of the ship breakers industry now it is India. Cost to much to do it here. [:o)][:p][:)] Originally posted by corwinda Originally posted by Junctionfan Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply corwinda Member sinceJune 2001 From: US 389 posts Posted by corwinda on Friday, April 8, 2005 4:03 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan As far as scrap metal trains, I believe CSX runs a few K500 series as required. Not sure what kind of customer has that much scrap metal for a steel mill. Perhaps a yard that dismantles old ships. Or from pier to mill. Reply Junctionfan Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: St.Catharines, Ontario 3,770 posts Posted by Junctionfan on Friday, April 8, 2005 1:12 PM Movement of empty cars is a "necessary evil" in railroad profit means. The good thing is that 3 locomotives can haul 180 cars no problem as long as the grade isn't to steep. The interesting thing is that unit trains don't usually need to change cars often so it saves money on buying more railcars to replenish industries with shipping means. That is likely why railroads prefer unit trains. I know CN at one point was in preference to running unit trains. I suspect that the "Tank Train" cars of GATX was built for that kind of purpose. As far as scrap metal trains, I believe CSX runs a few K500 series as required. Not sure what kind of customer has that much scrap metal for a steel mill. Andrew Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Friday, April 8, 2005 12:13 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Bob, perhaps you can help with other accessorial charges. Typically, what other charges can a shipper expect.? Is there a charge for switching into an industry? Or is that part of the rate? Lets say NS hands off to a short line for final delivery...does NS split their rate with the short line or does that carrier also bill the customer? What about return of empty private cars? If a customer ships food oil in a private tank car...ADM, Bunge, AGP, Cargill, etc...what is the charge to return the mt tank car? Is there a mileage allowance. In general, based on loose car movements. The most common added charges are for weighing and demurage. One switch in and out of an industry is included in the rate. However, you will see caps on this because some carriers have tried to limit access with very high switching charges. Shortlines either have a contract with the connecting Class I for a fixed fee per car or they take a percentage of the through rate. The fixed fee approach is the most common with the shortline not appearing in the route on the bill of lading. Shipper owned cars are returned empty to the loading point without charge. However, if you shipped a load from TX to PA and went to send the empty out to WA there will probably be a charge in cents per mile for the extra distance. Prior to Staggers the railroads paid a feee in cents per mile to use shipper cars. It was a rate the ICC perscribed. However, in an effort to save the accounting expense, only about 10% of the traffic still moves on this basis. The rest move on so called zero mileage payout rates where the equipment cost is backed out of the rate. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,918 posts Posted by MP173 on Friday, April 8, 2005 10:42 AM I just spent a wonderful hour in the world of railroad tariffs. NS does not have published tariffs for scrap available to the general public. You must register in order to get access. In order to register, you must have an NS employee (probably sales person) sponser you. However, there were some public rates out there... But, it was interesting looking at lumber, grain, and fertilizer rates!!!! A 500 mile haul of food oil yiels about $1985 in a shipper supplied car. A 500 mile haul of grain in a greater than 5000 cf cover hopper is $2033. Joint line lumber rates for NS and CSX are in effect. The 500 mile rate is $2585 to be split between the two carriers for a big flatcar. Proportionate rates coming from another carrier at either Chicago or Streator yield $2277 for a big flat car for 500 miles. All of that revenue goes to NS. It appears that a hefty fuel surcharge is in affect. Their tariff states .4% of line haul for every $1 above $23.00 for west Texas crude. That is about 13% today. Bob, perhaps you can help with other accessorial charges. Typically, what other charges can a shipper expect.? Is there a charge for switching into an industry? Or is that part of the rate? Lets say NS hands off to a short line for final delivery...does NS split their rate with the short line or does that carrier also bill the customer? What about return of empty private cars? If a customer ships food oil in a private tank car...ADM, Bunge, AGP, Cargill, etc...what is the charge to return the mt tank car? Is there a mileage allowance. Back in the day, I worked for a small LTL carrier and we interlined with the major carriers. We would split revenue based on an old book of railroad rates. It had been published sometime in the 20's and there were "factors" for interline points such as Chicago, Indianaplis, etc. I wish I would have kept a copy. ed Reply mudchicken Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Denver / La Junta 10,794 posts Posted by mudchicken on Friday, April 8, 2005 10:16 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper Normal safety inspections by the local government authorities would solve the problem. Why don't they do it? Are they being bought off? But there is no reason why you railroaders reading this post cannot call the police after subjecting yourselves to some horror at a scrapmetal siding and report all the safety violations. If all railroaders did this consistantly would not the jobs for all be a lot safer? Sure it takes time. But time you take may prevent future injury! (1) FRA is hard stretched to inspect trackage on the common carriers, much less trackage owned by individual industries. They will come if called on a case by case basis and talk to an individual track owner (who usually feigns ignorance.) (1a) Railroads are bound to inspect only the track that they own, not neccessarilly operate over. It's up to the operating supervision to bring in a track department person to inspect out of bounds if they see something wrong. Track guys will look beyond the line where they can to spot trouble, but they cannot go out of their way. (If the forum could only see the finger pointing that goes on after a track caused derailment on industry owned track. The industry rarely wants to pay for anything, cannot justify regular maintenance and inspection costs, thinks track lasts forever and is outraged when the railroad sends it a track repair bill after a derailment or when the track deteriorates to the point the train cannot get over it and they need cars) (2) The State PUC or Railroad Commission will come out and inspect and order a track removed from service if it violates a state statute (usually road crossing or clearance issue).....there is no longer a qualified individual in Colorado to do this since the last PUC Railroad Engineer retired (he was VERY good and is now sorely missed)[V] ... again the industry feigns ignorance even though you beat them over the head with the facts after giving up on gentile persuasion long ago with them.....This is as close as you get to police daveklepper! Neither (1) or (2) wants to discourage commerce, and they try to persuade the industry to straighten out, but I have seen them pull the plug on rare occasion. (3) Chicken solution, you forbid (by sign and superintendents notice) to spot cars or have employees go past a certain point on a track where it is known to be safe and in compliance, force the industry to come get the cars. more bellyaching to be heard from the industry I personally have done (1), (2) and (3)....sometimes at the risk of getting called on the carpet by a superintendent (most understanding, some witless "Odies") after the 'supe gets his butt chewed by the shipper. [soapbox][soapbox][soapbox] Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 8, 2005 10:15 AM Well my world today is clicking on A/trade to see what is going on with my investments. However, as I said I do miss the battle of wits with the shippers. In the steamship world whatever the shipper described his shipment as was how it was rated. For guidance they were also required to furnish us with a US Customs form call a "shippers export declaration" which had a schedule "B" number. By checking that number in the schedule "B" book you would know if the shipper descripition was correct as the presumption was the shipper would not lie to the US Customs. For me it was easier as I had the authority to fix a rate without have to go to a bureau for approval as the FMC rules were so long as the rate agreed upon was lower then the filed rate. So we would file a really super hi rate & then be able to barter with the shipper for a rate that they would accept that would be lower then the filed rate. Thats what made it such fun was that the shipper wanted to pay 1/2 a widget we wanted him to pay 10 widgets. [:o)][:D][:p] Originally posted by MP173 Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Friday, April 8, 2005 9:59 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 spbed: I was a "rate man" myself....in LTL trucking. Before it was computerized, it was quite a world. Everyday there would be new tariffs and supplements from the bureaus. All to be filed away. We had the classification guide with 15 factors to determine the "class" of freight. It was pretty interesting. Today, I am in a different world, it is "what the market will bear." I like this a lot better than the old regulated days. ed MP173-I remember the joys of rating a mixed shipment only to discover the operating authority was not there on one of the commodities. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,918 posts Posted by MP173 on Friday, April 8, 2005 8:57 AM spbed: I was a "rate man" myself....in LTL trucking. Before it was computerized, it was quite a world. Everyday there would be new tariffs and supplements from the bureaus. All to be filed away. We had the classification guide with 15 factors to determine the "class" of freight. It was pretty interesting. Today, I am in a different world, it is "what the market will bear." I like this a lot better than the old regulated days. ed Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 8, 2005 8:34 AM Good luck in my very early days I used to file our rates with the FMC & attend rate meetings. I sought of enjoyed it. The best was dealing with the shippers who wonder why used newspapers pays $0.01 & photo equipment cost $100.00 a ton as a example. The battle of wits with shippers was very enjoyable to say the least. [:D][:o)][:p] Originally posted by MP173 [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,918 posts Posted by MP173 on Friday, April 8, 2005 8:29 AM Thanks spbed....should have done that. I guess it is time to enter the wonderful world of rates and tariffs again. ed Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 8, 2005 7:46 AM No maybe at the NS site they have a calculator of freight charges you can use to get the number? [:o)][:)][:D] Originally posted by spbed Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,918 posts Posted by MP173 on Friday, April 8, 2005 7:43 AM My favorite train is NS 177 which is a Chicago - Ft Wayne/Cincinnati manifest. When I hear it on the scanner, I go watch it. It almost always has at least 40 cars of scrap metal. Something sort of neat, as an economic railfan, after watching train after train of containers and auto racks to watch a REAL train with boxcars, tanks, covered hoppers, and gons loaded to the brim with scrap metal. I look at it this way...NS177 usually has 100+ cars. If 40 of those are scrap metal, then that is still a very profitable train. Anyone know where rates can be found on scrap? What would a load from Chicago to Ft. Wayne pay? ed Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 8, 2005 7:31 AM Yes heard that word a whole bunch in the S/ship industry "discrimination" used every day by shippers of low paying cargo. They use to complain to the Federal Maritime Commision. There were investigations yada, yada, yada but in the end PROFITS always was the end product of everything. Never any fines. In the S/ship industry no matter if the container was low paying cargo or high paying container it cost the same to load & unload it. I'm sure lets say from NYC to CHIC via CSX the costs to move a car of low paying freight & high paying freight is more or less the same. Again I have not been employed in the RR biz just worked very closely with them & if the RRs are not interested in making mega bucks then oh well to them. [:o)][:p][:D][:)] Originally posted by PNWRMNM SPBED Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,048 posts Posted by daveklepper on Friday, April 8, 2005 3:15 AM Normal safety inspections by the local government authorities would solve the problem. Why don't they do it? Are they being bought off? But there is no reason why you railroaders reading this post cannot call the police after subjecting yourselves to some horror at a scrapmetal siding and report all the safety violations. If all railroaders did this consistantly would not the jobs for all be a lot safer? Sure it takes time. But time you take may prevent future injury! Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 8, 2005 1:43 AM You know what? Forget the rail service to these scrap yards. Foundrys should be built nearby to melt the scrap down to pig iron or whatever we call them today. Then these loads can be shipped out of the foundry on trucks or train as revenue. Reply Edit 12 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Originally posted by daveklepper
Originally posted by daveklepper Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Posted by zardoz on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 8:27 AM Dave, Ideally, you are correct on both accounts. But from what I've seen at our scrap yard (and at others), I would not hold out too much hope of the loading being done in such a way that the car is not damaged. Even the huge 40 sq. yd. containers we use to pick up scrap from industries get a terrible beating. The containers last about two years before they need to be refurbished, and maybe another year or so after that before the structure has been compromised so much that it is non-repairable. And at about $4K each, that gets expensive. Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,048 posts Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 1:34 AM Also, why is it easier to load a container with scrap metal if it is on a truck chassis rather than on the flatcar? Finally, would not the cost savings of an all-rail container movement to the port be so great that the container could simply make a one-way trip to China as part of the scrap metal? Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,048 posts Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 3:35 PM Possibly the cost reductions, assuming really intelligent container design to minimize weight and maximize strength, would be so great as encourage the scrapyard owners to be careful in loading, not banging against sides, etc. Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Posted by zardoz on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 1:31 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper Why not use containers with tops that open and load the scrap directly into the container on the flat car at the scrapyard? The only problem with that solution is the amount of damage the container would suffer during loading (take a close look at gons used in scrap service). The flimsiness of a container would never hold up to the abuse. For the container to be strong enough, the walls and floor would have to be very thick, greatly increasing the tare weight. Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,048 posts Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 1:06 PM Why not use containers with tops that open and load the scrap directly into the container on the flat car at the scrapyard? Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Monday, April 11, 2005 8:02 AM I believe todays piggy packers or overhead cranes have scales in them so if the operater is observant there should be no overweight containers. [:p][:o)][:D] Originally posted by futuremodal Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, April 10, 2005 1:10 PM Some observations: 1. I'm not trying to be facitious here, but it sounds like some of these scrap yards with the poor trackage are themselves engaged in deferred maintenance. It could be the same problem of low margins and inability to sufficiently recover their cost of capital as the railroads experience(d). 2. If and when China finally de-pegs it's currency and allows it to float freely, you will see a shift in the movement of scrap metal from gons going stateside to otherwise empty containers heading back to Asia. China will soon be the number one market for scrap metal, if it isn't already, and it is only the currency situation that is preventing more U.S. scrap metal from heading that direction. Assuming that the dollar will be devalued relative to China's currency if it is de-pegged, that will be a boon for scrap dealers. Of course, you will then have the problem of an overweighed container of scrap having a rod or something bust through the bottom of a container in a well car and causing a derailment. Anyway, it means the truckers will have to deal with the inherent danger of scrap yards instead of railroaders, as the container loaded with scrap metal will need to be drayed to the nearest rail terminal. Reply Edit spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Sunday, April 10, 2005 8:21 AM If a employee here feels his work place is dangerous who he has to do is place a call to OSHA. From then on the Feds will handle it. [:o)][:)][:D] Originally posted by daveklepper [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,048 posts Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, April 10, 2005 8:16 AM There are laws in most States regarding safe working conditions, so my idea about contacting the Police for an obviousl safety violation is not far fetched . And it is not only railroaders that should do this but truckers also, for the benefit of both and for the benefit for those actually working in these places. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Saturday, April 9, 2005 8:07 AM Taiwan used to be the heart of the ship breakers industry now it is India. Cost to much to do it here. [:o)][:p][:)] Originally posted by corwinda Originally posted by Junctionfan Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply corwinda Member sinceJune 2001 From: US 389 posts Posted by corwinda on Friday, April 8, 2005 4:03 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan As far as scrap metal trains, I believe CSX runs a few K500 series as required. Not sure what kind of customer has that much scrap metal for a steel mill. Perhaps a yard that dismantles old ships. Or from pier to mill. Reply Junctionfan Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: St.Catharines, Ontario 3,770 posts Posted by Junctionfan on Friday, April 8, 2005 1:12 PM Movement of empty cars is a "necessary evil" in railroad profit means. The good thing is that 3 locomotives can haul 180 cars no problem as long as the grade isn't to steep. The interesting thing is that unit trains don't usually need to change cars often so it saves money on buying more railcars to replenish industries with shipping means. That is likely why railroads prefer unit trains. I know CN at one point was in preference to running unit trains. I suspect that the "Tank Train" cars of GATX was built for that kind of purpose. As far as scrap metal trains, I believe CSX runs a few K500 series as required. Not sure what kind of customer has that much scrap metal for a steel mill. Andrew Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Friday, April 8, 2005 12:13 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Bob, perhaps you can help with other accessorial charges. Typically, what other charges can a shipper expect.? Is there a charge for switching into an industry? Or is that part of the rate? Lets say NS hands off to a short line for final delivery...does NS split their rate with the short line or does that carrier also bill the customer? What about return of empty private cars? If a customer ships food oil in a private tank car...ADM, Bunge, AGP, Cargill, etc...what is the charge to return the mt tank car? Is there a mileage allowance. In general, based on loose car movements. The most common added charges are for weighing and demurage. One switch in and out of an industry is included in the rate. However, you will see caps on this because some carriers have tried to limit access with very high switching charges. Shortlines either have a contract with the connecting Class I for a fixed fee per car or they take a percentage of the through rate. The fixed fee approach is the most common with the shortline not appearing in the route on the bill of lading. Shipper owned cars are returned empty to the loading point without charge. However, if you shipped a load from TX to PA and went to send the empty out to WA there will probably be a charge in cents per mile for the extra distance. Prior to Staggers the railroads paid a feee in cents per mile to use shipper cars. It was a rate the ICC perscribed. However, in an effort to save the accounting expense, only about 10% of the traffic still moves on this basis. The rest move on so called zero mileage payout rates where the equipment cost is backed out of the rate. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,918 posts Posted by MP173 on Friday, April 8, 2005 10:42 AM I just spent a wonderful hour in the world of railroad tariffs. NS does not have published tariffs for scrap available to the general public. You must register in order to get access. In order to register, you must have an NS employee (probably sales person) sponser you. However, there were some public rates out there... But, it was interesting looking at lumber, grain, and fertilizer rates!!!! A 500 mile haul of food oil yiels about $1985 in a shipper supplied car. A 500 mile haul of grain in a greater than 5000 cf cover hopper is $2033. Joint line lumber rates for NS and CSX are in effect. The 500 mile rate is $2585 to be split between the two carriers for a big flatcar. Proportionate rates coming from another carrier at either Chicago or Streator yield $2277 for a big flat car for 500 miles. All of that revenue goes to NS. It appears that a hefty fuel surcharge is in affect. Their tariff states .4% of line haul for every $1 above $23.00 for west Texas crude. That is about 13% today. Bob, perhaps you can help with other accessorial charges. Typically, what other charges can a shipper expect.? Is there a charge for switching into an industry? Or is that part of the rate? Lets say NS hands off to a short line for final delivery...does NS split their rate with the short line or does that carrier also bill the customer? What about return of empty private cars? If a customer ships food oil in a private tank car...ADM, Bunge, AGP, Cargill, etc...what is the charge to return the mt tank car? Is there a mileage allowance. Back in the day, I worked for a small LTL carrier and we interlined with the major carriers. We would split revenue based on an old book of railroad rates. It had been published sometime in the 20's and there were "factors" for interline points such as Chicago, Indianaplis, etc. I wish I would have kept a copy. ed Reply mudchicken Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Denver / La Junta 10,794 posts Posted by mudchicken on Friday, April 8, 2005 10:16 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper Normal safety inspections by the local government authorities would solve the problem. Why don't they do it? Are they being bought off? But there is no reason why you railroaders reading this post cannot call the police after subjecting yourselves to some horror at a scrapmetal siding and report all the safety violations. If all railroaders did this consistantly would not the jobs for all be a lot safer? Sure it takes time. But time you take may prevent future injury! (1) FRA is hard stretched to inspect trackage on the common carriers, much less trackage owned by individual industries. They will come if called on a case by case basis and talk to an individual track owner (who usually feigns ignorance.) (1a) Railroads are bound to inspect only the track that they own, not neccessarilly operate over. It's up to the operating supervision to bring in a track department person to inspect out of bounds if they see something wrong. Track guys will look beyond the line where they can to spot trouble, but they cannot go out of their way. (If the forum could only see the finger pointing that goes on after a track caused derailment on industry owned track. The industry rarely wants to pay for anything, cannot justify regular maintenance and inspection costs, thinks track lasts forever and is outraged when the railroad sends it a track repair bill after a derailment or when the track deteriorates to the point the train cannot get over it and they need cars) (2) The State PUC or Railroad Commission will come out and inspect and order a track removed from service if it violates a state statute (usually road crossing or clearance issue).....there is no longer a qualified individual in Colorado to do this since the last PUC Railroad Engineer retired (he was VERY good and is now sorely missed)[V] ... again the industry feigns ignorance even though you beat them over the head with the facts after giving up on gentile persuasion long ago with them.....This is as close as you get to police daveklepper! Neither (1) or (2) wants to discourage commerce, and they try to persuade the industry to straighten out, but I have seen them pull the plug on rare occasion. (3) Chicken solution, you forbid (by sign and superintendents notice) to spot cars or have employees go past a certain point on a track where it is known to be safe and in compliance, force the industry to come get the cars. more bellyaching to be heard from the industry I personally have done (1), (2) and (3)....sometimes at the risk of getting called on the carpet by a superintendent (most understanding, some witless "Odies") after the 'supe gets his butt chewed by the shipper. [soapbox][soapbox][soapbox] Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 8, 2005 10:15 AM Well my world today is clicking on A/trade to see what is going on with my investments. However, as I said I do miss the battle of wits with the shippers. In the steamship world whatever the shipper described his shipment as was how it was rated. For guidance they were also required to furnish us with a US Customs form call a "shippers export declaration" which had a schedule "B" number. By checking that number in the schedule "B" book you would know if the shipper descripition was correct as the presumption was the shipper would not lie to the US Customs. For me it was easier as I had the authority to fix a rate without have to go to a bureau for approval as the FMC rules were so long as the rate agreed upon was lower then the filed rate. So we would file a really super hi rate & then be able to barter with the shipper for a rate that they would accept that would be lower then the filed rate. Thats what made it such fun was that the shipper wanted to pay 1/2 a widget we wanted him to pay 10 widgets. [:o)][:D][:p] Originally posted by MP173 Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Friday, April 8, 2005 9:59 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 spbed: I was a "rate man" myself....in LTL trucking. Before it was computerized, it was quite a world. Everyday there would be new tariffs and supplements from the bureaus. All to be filed away. We had the classification guide with 15 factors to determine the "class" of freight. It was pretty interesting. Today, I am in a different world, it is "what the market will bear." I like this a lot better than the old regulated days. ed MP173-I remember the joys of rating a mixed shipment only to discover the operating authority was not there on one of the commodities. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,918 posts Posted by MP173 on Friday, April 8, 2005 8:57 AM spbed: I was a "rate man" myself....in LTL trucking. Before it was computerized, it was quite a world. Everyday there would be new tariffs and supplements from the bureaus. All to be filed away. We had the classification guide with 15 factors to determine the "class" of freight. It was pretty interesting. Today, I am in a different world, it is "what the market will bear." I like this a lot better than the old regulated days. ed Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 8, 2005 8:34 AM Good luck in my very early days I used to file our rates with the FMC & attend rate meetings. I sought of enjoyed it. The best was dealing with the shippers who wonder why used newspapers pays $0.01 & photo equipment cost $100.00 a ton as a example. The battle of wits with shippers was very enjoyable to say the least. [:D][:o)][:p] Originally posted by MP173 [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,918 posts Posted by MP173 on Friday, April 8, 2005 8:29 AM Thanks spbed....should have done that. I guess it is time to enter the wonderful world of rates and tariffs again. ed Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 8, 2005 7:46 AM No maybe at the NS site they have a calculator of freight charges you can use to get the number? [:o)][:)][:D] Originally posted by spbed Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,918 posts Posted by MP173 on Friday, April 8, 2005 7:43 AM My favorite train is NS 177 which is a Chicago - Ft Wayne/Cincinnati manifest. When I hear it on the scanner, I go watch it. It almost always has at least 40 cars of scrap metal. Something sort of neat, as an economic railfan, after watching train after train of containers and auto racks to watch a REAL train with boxcars, tanks, covered hoppers, and gons loaded to the brim with scrap metal. I look at it this way...NS177 usually has 100+ cars. If 40 of those are scrap metal, then that is still a very profitable train. Anyone know where rates can be found on scrap? What would a load from Chicago to Ft. Wayne pay? ed Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 8, 2005 7:31 AM Yes heard that word a whole bunch in the S/ship industry "discrimination" used every day by shippers of low paying cargo. They use to complain to the Federal Maritime Commision. There were investigations yada, yada, yada but in the end PROFITS always was the end product of everything. Never any fines. In the S/ship industry no matter if the container was low paying cargo or high paying container it cost the same to load & unload it. I'm sure lets say from NYC to CHIC via CSX the costs to move a car of low paying freight & high paying freight is more or less the same. Again I have not been employed in the RR biz just worked very closely with them & if the RRs are not interested in making mega bucks then oh well to them. [:o)][:p][:D][:)] Originally posted by PNWRMNM SPBED Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,048 posts Posted by daveklepper on Friday, April 8, 2005 3:15 AM Normal safety inspections by the local government authorities would solve the problem. Why don't they do it? Are they being bought off? But there is no reason why you railroaders reading this post cannot call the police after subjecting yourselves to some horror at a scrapmetal siding and report all the safety violations. If all railroaders did this consistantly would not the jobs for all be a lot safer? Sure it takes time. But time you take may prevent future injury! Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 8, 2005 1:43 AM You know what? Forget the rail service to these scrap yards. Foundrys should be built nearby to melt the scrap down to pig iron or whatever we call them today. Then these loads can be shipped out of the foundry on trucks or train as revenue. Reply Edit 12 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper Why not use containers with tops that open and load the scrap directly into the container on the flat car at the scrapyard?
Originally posted by futuremodal Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, April 10, 2005 1:10 PM Some observations: 1. I'm not trying to be facitious here, but it sounds like some of these scrap yards with the poor trackage are themselves engaged in deferred maintenance. It could be the same problem of low margins and inability to sufficiently recover their cost of capital as the railroads experience(d). 2. If and when China finally de-pegs it's currency and allows it to float freely, you will see a shift in the movement of scrap metal from gons going stateside to otherwise empty containers heading back to Asia. China will soon be the number one market for scrap metal, if it isn't already, and it is only the currency situation that is preventing more U.S. scrap metal from heading that direction. Assuming that the dollar will be devalued relative to China's currency if it is de-pegged, that will be a boon for scrap dealers. Of course, you will then have the problem of an overweighed container of scrap having a rod or something bust through the bottom of a container in a well car and causing a derailment. Anyway, it means the truckers will have to deal with the inherent danger of scrap yards instead of railroaders, as the container loaded with scrap metal will need to be drayed to the nearest rail terminal. Reply Edit spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Sunday, April 10, 2005 8:21 AM If a employee here feels his work place is dangerous who he has to do is place a call to OSHA. From then on the Feds will handle it. [:o)][:)][:D] Originally posted by daveklepper [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,048 posts Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, April 10, 2005 8:16 AM There are laws in most States regarding safe working conditions, so my idea about contacting the Police for an obviousl safety violation is not far fetched . And it is not only railroaders that should do this but truckers also, for the benefit of both and for the benefit for those actually working in these places. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Saturday, April 9, 2005 8:07 AM Taiwan used to be the heart of the ship breakers industry now it is India. Cost to much to do it here. [:o)][:p][:)] Originally posted by corwinda Originally posted by Junctionfan Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply corwinda Member sinceJune 2001 From: US 389 posts Posted by corwinda on Friday, April 8, 2005 4:03 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan As far as scrap metal trains, I believe CSX runs a few K500 series as required. Not sure what kind of customer has that much scrap metal for a steel mill. Perhaps a yard that dismantles old ships. Or from pier to mill. Reply Junctionfan Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: St.Catharines, Ontario 3,770 posts Posted by Junctionfan on Friday, April 8, 2005 1:12 PM Movement of empty cars is a "necessary evil" in railroad profit means. The good thing is that 3 locomotives can haul 180 cars no problem as long as the grade isn't to steep. The interesting thing is that unit trains don't usually need to change cars often so it saves money on buying more railcars to replenish industries with shipping means. That is likely why railroads prefer unit trains. I know CN at one point was in preference to running unit trains. I suspect that the "Tank Train" cars of GATX was built for that kind of purpose. As far as scrap metal trains, I believe CSX runs a few K500 series as required. Not sure what kind of customer has that much scrap metal for a steel mill. Andrew Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Friday, April 8, 2005 12:13 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Bob, perhaps you can help with other accessorial charges. Typically, what other charges can a shipper expect.? Is there a charge for switching into an industry? Or is that part of the rate? Lets say NS hands off to a short line for final delivery...does NS split their rate with the short line or does that carrier also bill the customer? What about return of empty private cars? If a customer ships food oil in a private tank car...ADM, Bunge, AGP, Cargill, etc...what is the charge to return the mt tank car? Is there a mileage allowance. In general, based on loose car movements. The most common added charges are for weighing and demurage. One switch in and out of an industry is included in the rate. However, you will see caps on this because some carriers have tried to limit access with very high switching charges. Shortlines either have a contract with the connecting Class I for a fixed fee per car or they take a percentage of the through rate. The fixed fee approach is the most common with the shortline not appearing in the route on the bill of lading. Shipper owned cars are returned empty to the loading point without charge. However, if you shipped a load from TX to PA and went to send the empty out to WA there will probably be a charge in cents per mile for the extra distance. Prior to Staggers the railroads paid a feee in cents per mile to use shipper cars. It was a rate the ICC perscribed. However, in an effort to save the accounting expense, only about 10% of the traffic still moves on this basis. The rest move on so called zero mileage payout rates where the equipment cost is backed out of the rate. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,918 posts Posted by MP173 on Friday, April 8, 2005 10:42 AM I just spent a wonderful hour in the world of railroad tariffs. NS does not have published tariffs for scrap available to the general public. You must register in order to get access. In order to register, you must have an NS employee (probably sales person) sponser you. However, there were some public rates out there... But, it was interesting looking at lumber, grain, and fertilizer rates!!!! A 500 mile haul of food oil yiels about $1985 in a shipper supplied car. A 500 mile haul of grain in a greater than 5000 cf cover hopper is $2033. Joint line lumber rates for NS and CSX are in effect. The 500 mile rate is $2585 to be split between the two carriers for a big flatcar. Proportionate rates coming from another carrier at either Chicago or Streator yield $2277 for a big flat car for 500 miles. All of that revenue goes to NS. It appears that a hefty fuel surcharge is in affect. Their tariff states .4% of line haul for every $1 above $23.00 for west Texas crude. That is about 13% today. Bob, perhaps you can help with other accessorial charges. Typically, what other charges can a shipper expect.? Is there a charge for switching into an industry? Or is that part of the rate? Lets say NS hands off to a short line for final delivery...does NS split their rate with the short line or does that carrier also bill the customer? What about return of empty private cars? If a customer ships food oil in a private tank car...ADM, Bunge, AGP, Cargill, etc...what is the charge to return the mt tank car? Is there a mileage allowance. Back in the day, I worked for a small LTL carrier and we interlined with the major carriers. We would split revenue based on an old book of railroad rates. It had been published sometime in the 20's and there were "factors" for interline points such as Chicago, Indianaplis, etc. I wish I would have kept a copy. ed Reply mudchicken Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Denver / La Junta 10,794 posts Posted by mudchicken on Friday, April 8, 2005 10:16 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper Normal safety inspections by the local government authorities would solve the problem. Why don't they do it? Are they being bought off? But there is no reason why you railroaders reading this post cannot call the police after subjecting yourselves to some horror at a scrapmetal siding and report all the safety violations. If all railroaders did this consistantly would not the jobs for all be a lot safer? Sure it takes time. But time you take may prevent future injury! (1) FRA is hard stretched to inspect trackage on the common carriers, much less trackage owned by individual industries. They will come if called on a case by case basis and talk to an individual track owner (who usually feigns ignorance.) (1a) Railroads are bound to inspect only the track that they own, not neccessarilly operate over. It's up to the operating supervision to bring in a track department person to inspect out of bounds if they see something wrong. Track guys will look beyond the line where they can to spot trouble, but they cannot go out of their way. (If the forum could only see the finger pointing that goes on after a track caused derailment on industry owned track. The industry rarely wants to pay for anything, cannot justify regular maintenance and inspection costs, thinks track lasts forever and is outraged when the railroad sends it a track repair bill after a derailment or when the track deteriorates to the point the train cannot get over it and they need cars) (2) The State PUC or Railroad Commission will come out and inspect and order a track removed from service if it violates a state statute (usually road crossing or clearance issue).....there is no longer a qualified individual in Colorado to do this since the last PUC Railroad Engineer retired (he was VERY good and is now sorely missed)[V] ... again the industry feigns ignorance even though you beat them over the head with the facts after giving up on gentile persuasion long ago with them.....This is as close as you get to police daveklepper! Neither (1) or (2) wants to discourage commerce, and they try to persuade the industry to straighten out, but I have seen them pull the plug on rare occasion. (3) Chicken solution, you forbid (by sign and superintendents notice) to spot cars or have employees go past a certain point on a track where it is known to be safe and in compliance, force the industry to come get the cars. more bellyaching to be heard from the industry I personally have done (1), (2) and (3)....sometimes at the risk of getting called on the carpet by a superintendent (most understanding, some witless "Odies") after the 'supe gets his butt chewed by the shipper. [soapbox][soapbox][soapbox] Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 8, 2005 10:15 AM Well my world today is clicking on A/trade to see what is going on with my investments. However, as I said I do miss the battle of wits with the shippers. In the steamship world whatever the shipper described his shipment as was how it was rated. For guidance they were also required to furnish us with a US Customs form call a "shippers export declaration" which had a schedule "B" number. By checking that number in the schedule "B" book you would know if the shipper descripition was correct as the presumption was the shipper would not lie to the US Customs. For me it was easier as I had the authority to fix a rate without have to go to a bureau for approval as the FMC rules were so long as the rate agreed upon was lower then the filed rate. So we would file a really super hi rate & then be able to barter with the shipper for a rate that they would accept that would be lower then the filed rate. Thats what made it such fun was that the shipper wanted to pay 1/2 a widget we wanted him to pay 10 widgets. [:o)][:D][:p] Originally posted by MP173 Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Friday, April 8, 2005 9:59 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 spbed: I was a "rate man" myself....in LTL trucking. Before it was computerized, it was quite a world. Everyday there would be new tariffs and supplements from the bureaus. All to be filed away. We had the classification guide with 15 factors to determine the "class" of freight. It was pretty interesting. Today, I am in a different world, it is "what the market will bear." I like this a lot better than the old regulated days. ed MP173-I remember the joys of rating a mixed shipment only to discover the operating authority was not there on one of the commodities. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,918 posts Posted by MP173 on Friday, April 8, 2005 8:57 AM spbed: I was a "rate man" myself....in LTL trucking. Before it was computerized, it was quite a world. Everyday there would be new tariffs and supplements from the bureaus. All to be filed away. We had the classification guide with 15 factors to determine the "class" of freight. It was pretty interesting. Today, I am in a different world, it is "what the market will bear." I like this a lot better than the old regulated days. ed Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 8, 2005 8:34 AM Good luck in my very early days I used to file our rates with the FMC & attend rate meetings. I sought of enjoyed it. The best was dealing with the shippers who wonder why used newspapers pays $0.01 & photo equipment cost $100.00 a ton as a example. The battle of wits with shippers was very enjoyable to say the least. [:D][:o)][:p] Originally posted by MP173 [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,918 posts Posted by MP173 on Friday, April 8, 2005 8:29 AM Thanks spbed....should have done that. I guess it is time to enter the wonderful world of rates and tariffs again. ed Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 8, 2005 7:46 AM No maybe at the NS site they have a calculator of freight charges you can use to get the number? [:o)][:)][:D] Originally posted by spbed Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,918 posts Posted by MP173 on Friday, April 8, 2005 7:43 AM My favorite train is NS 177 which is a Chicago - Ft Wayne/Cincinnati manifest. When I hear it on the scanner, I go watch it. It almost always has at least 40 cars of scrap metal. Something sort of neat, as an economic railfan, after watching train after train of containers and auto racks to watch a REAL train with boxcars, tanks, covered hoppers, and gons loaded to the brim with scrap metal. I look at it this way...NS177 usually has 100+ cars. If 40 of those are scrap metal, then that is still a very profitable train. Anyone know where rates can be found on scrap? What would a load from Chicago to Ft. Wayne pay? ed Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 8, 2005 7:31 AM Yes heard that word a whole bunch in the S/ship industry "discrimination" used every day by shippers of low paying cargo. They use to complain to the Federal Maritime Commision. There were investigations yada, yada, yada but in the end PROFITS always was the end product of everything. Never any fines. In the S/ship industry no matter if the container was low paying cargo or high paying container it cost the same to load & unload it. I'm sure lets say from NYC to CHIC via CSX the costs to move a car of low paying freight & high paying freight is more or less the same. Again I have not been employed in the RR biz just worked very closely with them & if the RRs are not interested in making mega bucks then oh well to them. [:o)][:p][:D][:)] Originally posted by PNWRMNM SPBED Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,048 posts Posted by daveklepper on Friday, April 8, 2005 3:15 AM Normal safety inspections by the local government authorities would solve the problem. Why don't they do it? Are they being bought off? But there is no reason why you railroaders reading this post cannot call the police after subjecting yourselves to some horror at a scrapmetal siding and report all the safety violations. If all railroaders did this consistantly would not the jobs for all be a lot safer? Sure it takes time. But time you take may prevent future injury! Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 8, 2005 1:43 AM You know what? Forget the rail service to these scrap yards. Foundrys should be built nearby to melt the scrap down to pig iron or whatever we call them today. Then these loads can be shipped out of the foundry on trucks or train as revenue. Reply Edit 12 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Originally posted by daveklepper [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,048 posts Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, April 10, 2005 8:16 AM There are laws in most States regarding safe working conditions, so my idea about contacting the Police for an obviousl safety violation is not far fetched . And it is not only railroaders that should do this but truckers also, for the benefit of both and for the benefit for those actually working in these places. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Saturday, April 9, 2005 8:07 AM Taiwan used to be the heart of the ship breakers industry now it is India. Cost to much to do it here. [:o)][:p][:)] Originally posted by corwinda Originally posted by Junctionfan Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply corwinda Member sinceJune 2001 From: US 389 posts Posted by corwinda on Friday, April 8, 2005 4:03 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan As far as scrap metal trains, I believe CSX runs a few K500 series as required. Not sure what kind of customer has that much scrap metal for a steel mill. Perhaps a yard that dismantles old ships. Or from pier to mill. Reply Junctionfan Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: St.Catharines, Ontario 3,770 posts Posted by Junctionfan on Friday, April 8, 2005 1:12 PM Movement of empty cars is a "necessary evil" in railroad profit means. The good thing is that 3 locomotives can haul 180 cars no problem as long as the grade isn't to steep. The interesting thing is that unit trains don't usually need to change cars often so it saves money on buying more railcars to replenish industries with shipping means. That is likely why railroads prefer unit trains. I know CN at one point was in preference to running unit trains. I suspect that the "Tank Train" cars of GATX was built for that kind of purpose. As far as scrap metal trains, I believe CSX runs a few K500 series as required. Not sure what kind of customer has that much scrap metal for a steel mill. Andrew Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Friday, April 8, 2005 12:13 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Bob, perhaps you can help with other accessorial charges. Typically, what other charges can a shipper expect.? Is there a charge for switching into an industry? Or is that part of the rate? Lets say NS hands off to a short line for final delivery...does NS split their rate with the short line or does that carrier also bill the customer? What about return of empty private cars? If a customer ships food oil in a private tank car...ADM, Bunge, AGP, Cargill, etc...what is the charge to return the mt tank car? Is there a mileage allowance. In general, based on loose car movements. The most common added charges are for weighing and demurage. One switch in and out of an industry is included in the rate. However, you will see caps on this because some carriers have tried to limit access with very high switching charges. Shortlines either have a contract with the connecting Class I for a fixed fee per car or they take a percentage of the through rate. The fixed fee approach is the most common with the shortline not appearing in the route on the bill of lading. Shipper owned cars are returned empty to the loading point without charge. However, if you shipped a load from TX to PA and went to send the empty out to WA there will probably be a charge in cents per mile for the extra distance. Prior to Staggers the railroads paid a feee in cents per mile to use shipper cars. It was a rate the ICC perscribed. However, in an effort to save the accounting expense, only about 10% of the traffic still moves on this basis. The rest move on so called zero mileage payout rates where the equipment cost is backed out of the rate. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,918 posts Posted by MP173 on Friday, April 8, 2005 10:42 AM I just spent a wonderful hour in the world of railroad tariffs. NS does not have published tariffs for scrap available to the general public. You must register in order to get access. In order to register, you must have an NS employee (probably sales person) sponser you. However, there were some public rates out there... But, it was interesting looking at lumber, grain, and fertilizer rates!!!! A 500 mile haul of food oil yiels about $1985 in a shipper supplied car. A 500 mile haul of grain in a greater than 5000 cf cover hopper is $2033. Joint line lumber rates for NS and CSX are in effect. The 500 mile rate is $2585 to be split between the two carriers for a big flatcar. Proportionate rates coming from another carrier at either Chicago or Streator yield $2277 for a big flat car for 500 miles. All of that revenue goes to NS. It appears that a hefty fuel surcharge is in affect. Their tariff states .4% of line haul for every $1 above $23.00 for west Texas crude. That is about 13% today. Bob, perhaps you can help with other accessorial charges. Typically, what other charges can a shipper expect.? Is there a charge for switching into an industry? Or is that part of the rate? Lets say NS hands off to a short line for final delivery...does NS split their rate with the short line or does that carrier also bill the customer? What about return of empty private cars? If a customer ships food oil in a private tank car...ADM, Bunge, AGP, Cargill, etc...what is the charge to return the mt tank car? Is there a mileage allowance. Back in the day, I worked for a small LTL carrier and we interlined with the major carriers. We would split revenue based on an old book of railroad rates. It had been published sometime in the 20's and there were "factors" for interline points such as Chicago, Indianaplis, etc. I wish I would have kept a copy. ed Reply mudchicken Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Denver / La Junta 10,794 posts Posted by mudchicken on Friday, April 8, 2005 10:16 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper Normal safety inspections by the local government authorities would solve the problem. Why don't they do it? Are they being bought off? But there is no reason why you railroaders reading this post cannot call the police after subjecting yourselves to some horror at a scrapmetal siding and report all the safety violations. If all railroaders did this consistantly would not the jobs for all be a lot safer? Sure it takes time. But time you take may prevent future injury! (1) FRA is hard stretched to inspect trackage on the common carriers, much less trackage owned by individual industries. They will come if called on a case by case basis and talk to an individual track owner (who usually feigns ignorance.) (1a) Railroads are bound to inspect only the track that they own, not neccessarilly operate over. It's up to the operating supervision to bring in a track department person to inspect out of bounds if they see something wrong. Track guys will look beyond the line where they can to spot trouble, but they cannot go out of their way. (If the forum could only see the finger pointing that goes on after a track caused derailment on industry owned track. The industry rarely wants to pay for anything, cannot justify regular maintenance and inspection costs, thinks track lasts forever and is outraged when the railroad sends it a track repair bill after a derailment or when the track deteriorates to the point the train cannot get over it and they need cars) (2) The State PUC or Railroad Commission will come out and inspect and order a track removed from service if it violates a state statute (usually road crossing or clearance issue).....there is no longer a qualified individual in Colorado to do this since the last PUC Railroad Engineer retired (he was VERY good and is now sorely missed)[V] ... again the industry feigns ignorance even though you beat them over the head with the facts after giving up on gentile persuasion long ago with them.....This is as close as you get to police daveklepper! Neither (1) or (2) wants to discourage commerce, and they try to persuade the industry to straighten out, but I have seen them pull the plug on rare occasion. (3) Chicken solution, you forbid (by sign and superintendents notice) to spot cars or have employees go past a certain point on a track where it is known to be safe and in compliance, force the industry to come get the cars. more bellyaching to be heard from the industry I personally have done (1), (2) and (3)....sometimes at the risk of getting called on the carpet by a superintendent (most understanding, some witless "Odies") after the 'supe gets his butt chewed by the shipper. [soapbox][soapbox][soapbox] Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 8, 2005 10:15 AM Well my world today is clicking on A/trade to see what is going on with my investments. However, as I said I do miss the battle of wits with the shippers. In the steamship world whatever the shipper described his shipment as was how it was rated. For guidance they were also required to furnish us with a US Customs form call a "shippers export declaration" which had a schedule "B" number. By checking that number in the schedule "B" book you would know if the shipper descripition was correct as the presumption was the shipper would not lie to the US Customs. For me it was easier as I had the authority to fix a rate without have to go to a bureau for approval as the FMC rules were so long as the rate agreed upon was lower then the filed rate. So we would file a really super hi rate & then be able to barter with the shipper for a rate that they would accept that would be lower then the filed rate. Thats what made it such fun was that the shipper wanted to pay 1/2 a widget we wanted him to pay 10 widgets. [:o)][:D][:p] Originally posted by MP173 Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Friday, April 8, 2005 9:59 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 spbed: I was a "rate man" myself....in LTL trucking. Before it was computerized, it was quite a world. Everyday there would be new tariffs and supplements from the bureaus. All to be filed away. We had the classification guide with 15 factors to determine the "class" of freight. It was pretty interesting. Today, I am in a different world, it is "what the market will bear." I like this a lot better than the old regulated days. ed MP173-I remember the joys of rating a mixed shipment only to discover the operating authority was not there on one of the commodities. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,918 posts Posted by MP173 on Friday, April 8, 2005 8:57 AM spbed: I was a "rate man" myself....in LTL trucking. Before it was computerized, it was quite a world. Everyday there would be new tariffs and supplements from the bureaus. All to be filed away. We had the classification guide with 15 factors to determine the "class" of freight. It was pretty interesting. Today, I am in a different world, it is "what the market will bear." I like this a lot better than the old regulated days. ed Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 8, 2005 8:34 AM Good luck in my very early days I used to file our rates with the FMC & attend rate meetings. I sought of enjoyed it. The best was dealing with the shippers who wonder why used newspapers pays $0.01 & photo equipment cost $100.00 a ton as a example. The battle of wits with shippers was very enjoyable to say the least. [:D][:o)][:p] Originally posted by MP173 [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,918 posts Posted by MP173 on Friday, April 8, 2005 8:29 AM Thanks spbed....should have done that. I guess it is time to enter the wonderful world of rates and tariffs again. ed Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 8, 2005 7:46 AM No maybe at the NS site they have a calculator of freight charges you can use to get the number? [:o)][:)][:D] Originally posted by spbed Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,918 posts Posted by MP173 on Friday, April 8, 2005 7:43 AM My favorite train is NS 177 which is a Chicago - Ft Wayne/Cincinnati manifest. When I hear it on the scanner, I go watch it. It almost always has at least 40 cars of scrap metal. Something sort of neat, as an economic railfan, after watching train after train of containers and auto racks to watch a REAL train with boxcars, tanks, covered hoppers, and gons loaded to the brim with scrap metal. I look at it this way...NS177 usually has 100+ cars. If 40 of those are scrap metal, then that is still a very profitable train. Anyone know where rates can be found on scrap? What would a load from Chicago to Ft. Wayne pay? ed Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 8, 2005 7:31 AM Yes heard that word a whole bunch in the S/ship industry "discrimination" used every day by shippers of low paying cargo. They use to complain to the Federal Maritime Commision. There were investigations yada, yada, yada but in the end PROFITS always was the end product of everything. Never any fines. In the S/ship industry no matter if the container was low paying cargo or high paying container it cost the same to load & unload it. I'm sure lets say from NYC to CHIC via CSX the costs to move a car of low paying freight & high paying freight is more or less the same. Again I have not been employed in the RR biz just worked very closely with them & if the RRs are not interested in making mega bucks then oh well to them. [:o)][:p][:D][:)] Originally posted by PNWRMNM SPBED Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,048 posts Posted by daveklepper on Friday, April 8, 2005 3:15 AM Normal safety inspections by the local government authorities would solve the problem. Why don't they do it? Are they being bought off? But there is no reason why you railroaders reading this post cannot call the police after subjecting yourselves to some horror at a scrapmetal siding and report all the safety violations. If all railroaders did this consistantly would not the jobs for all be a lot safer? Sure it takes time. But time you take may prevent future injury! Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 8, 2005 1:43 AM You know what? Forget the rail service to these scrap yards. Foundrys should be built nearby to melt the scrap down to pig iron or whatever we call them today. Then these loads can be shipped out of the foundry on trucks or train as revenue. Reply Edit 12 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Originally posted by corwinda Originally posted by Junctionfan Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply corwinda Member sinceJune 2001 From: US 389 posts Posted by corwinda on Friday, April 8, 2005 4:03 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan As far as scrap metal trains, I believe CSX runs a few K500 series as required. Not sure what kind of customer has that much scrap metal for a steel mill. Perhaps a yard that dismantles old ships. Or from pier to mill. Reply Junctionfan Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: St.Catharines, Ontario 3,770 posts Posted by Junctionfan on Friday, April 8, 2005 1:12 PM Movement of empty cars is a "necessary evil" in railroad profit means. The good thing is that 3 locomotives can haul 180 cars no problem as long as the grade isn't to steep. The interesting thing is that unit trains don't usually need to change cars often so it saves money on buying more railcars to replenish industries with shipping means. That is likely why railroads prefer unit trains. I know CN at one point was in preference to running unit trains. I suspect that the "Tank Train" cars of GATX was built for that kind of purpose. As far as scrap metal trains, I believe CSX runs a few K500 series as required. Not sure what kind of customer has that much scrap metal for a steel mill. Andrew Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Friday, April 8, 2005 12:13 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Bob, perhaps you can help with other accessorial charges. Typically, what other charges can a shipper expect.? Is there a charge for switching into an industry? Or is that part of the rate? Lets say NS hands off to a short line for final delivery...does NS split their rate with the short line or does that carrier also bill the customer? What about return of empty private cars? If a customer ships food oil in a private tank car...ADM, Bunge, AGP, Cargill, etc...what is the charge to return the mt tank car? Is there a mileage allowance. In general, based on loose car movements. The most common added charges are for weighing and demurage. One switch in and out of an industry is included in the rate. However, you will see caps on this because some carriers have tried to limit access with very high switching charges. Shortlines either have a contract with the connecting Class I for a fixed fee per car or they take a percentage of the through rate. The fixed fee approach is the most common with the shortline not appearing in the route on the bill of lading. Shipper owned cars are returned empty to the loading point without charge. However, if you shipped a load from TX to PA and went to send the empty out to WA there will probably be a charge in cents per mile for the extra distance. Prior to Staggers the railroads paid a feee in cents per mile to use shipper cars. It was a rate the ICC perscribed. However, in an effort to save the accounting expense, only about 10% of the traffic still moves on this basis. The rest move on so called zero mileage payout rates where the equipment cost is backed out of the rate. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,918 posts Posted by MP173 on Friday, April 8, 2005 10:42 AM I just spent a wonderful hour in the world of railroad tariffs. NS does not have published tariffs for scrap available to the general public. You must register in order to get access. In order to register, you must have an NS employee (probably sales person) sponser you. However, there were some public rates out there... But, it was interesting looking at lumber, grain, and fertilizer rates!!!! A 500 mile haul of food oil yiels about $1985 in a shipper supplied car. A 500 mile haul of grain in a greater than 5000 cf cover hopper is $2033. Joint line lumber rates for NS and CSX are in effect. The 500 mile rate is $2585 to be split between the two carriers for a big flatcar. Proportionate rates coming from another carrier at either Chicago or Streator yield $2277 for a big flat car for 500 miles. All of that revenue goes to NS. It appears that a hefty fuel surcharge is in affect. Their tariff states .4% of line haul for every $1 above $23.00 for west Texas crude. That is about 13% today. Bob, perhaps you can help with other accessorial charges. Typically, what other charges can a shipper expect.? Is there a charge for switching into an industry? Or is that part of the rate? Lets say NS hands off to a short line for final delivery...does NS split their rate with the short line or does that carrier also bill the customer? What about return of empty private cars? If a customer ships food oil in a private tank car...ADM, Bunge, AGP, Cargill, etc...what is the charge to return the mt tank car? Is there a mileage allowance. Back in the day, I worked for a small LTL carrier and we interlined with the major carriers. We would split revenue based on an old book of railroad rates. It had been published sometime in the 20's and there were "factors" for interline points such as Chicago, Indianaplis, etc. I wish I would have kept a copy. ed Reply mudchicken Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Denver / La Junta 10,794 posts Posted by mudchicken on Friday, April 8, 2005 10:16 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper Normal safety inspections by the local government authorities would solve the problem. Why don't they do it? Are they being bought off? But there is no reason why you railroaders reading this post cannot call the police after subjecting yourselves to some horror at a scrapmetal siding and report all the safety violations. If all railroaders did this consistantly would not the jobs for all be a lot safer? Sure it takes time. But time you take may prevent future injury! (1) FRA is hard stretched to inspect trackage on the common carriers, much less trackage owned by individual industries. They will come if called on a case by case basis and talk to an individual track owner (who usually feigns ignorance.) (1a) Railroads are bound to inspect only the track that they own, not neccessarilly operate over. It's up to the operating supervision to bring in a track department person to inspect out of bounds if they see something wrong. Track guys will look beyond the line where they can to spot trouble, but they cannot go out of their way. (If the forum could only see the finger pointing that goes on after a track caused derailment on industry owned track. The industry rarely wants to pay for anything, cannot justify regular maintenance and inspection costs, thinks track lasts forever and is outraged when the railroad sends it a track repair bill after a derailment or when the track deteriorates to the point the train cannot get over it and they need cars) (2) The State PUC or Railroad Commission will come out and inspect and order a track removed from service if it violates a state statute (usually road crossing or clearance issue).....there is no longer a qualified individual in Colorado to do this since the last PUC Railroad Engineer retired (he was VERY good and is now sorely missed)[V] ... again the industry feigns ignorance even though you beat them over the head with the facts after giving up on gentile persuasion long ago with them.....This is as close as you get to police daveklepper! Neither (1) or (2) wants to discourage commerce, and they try to persuade the industry to straighten out, but I have seen them pull the plug on rare occasion. (3) Chicken solution, you forbid (by sign and superintendents notice) to spot cars or have employees go past a certain point on a track where it is known to be safe and in compliance, force the industry to come get the cars. more bellyaching to be heard from the industry I personally have done (1), (2) and (3)....sometimes at the risk of getting called on the carpet by a superintendent (most understanding, some witless "Odies") after the 'supe gets his butt chewed by the shipper. [soapbox][soapbox][soapbox] Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 8, 2005 10:15 AM Well my world today is clicking on A/trade to see what is going on with my investments. However, as I said I do miss the battle of wits with the shippers. In the steamship world whatever the shipper described his shipment as was how it was rated. For guidance they were also required to furnish us with a US Customs form call a "shippers export declaration" which had a schedule "B" number. By checking that number in the schedule "B" book you would know if the shipper descripition was correct as the presumption was the shipper would not lie to the US Customs. For me it was easier as I had the authority to fix a rate without have to go to a bureau for approval as the FMC rules were so long as the rate agreed upon was lower then the filed rate. So we would file a really super hi rate & then be able to barter with the shipper for a rate that they would accept that would be lower then the filed rate. Thats what made it such fun was that the shipper wanted to pay 1/2 a widget we wanted him to pay 10 widgets. [:o)][:D][:p] Originally posted by MP173 Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Friday, April 8, 2005 9:59 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 spbed: I was a "rate man" myself....in LTL trucking. Before it was computerized, it was quite a world. Everyday there would be new tariffs and supplements from the bureaus. All to be filed away. We had the classification guide with 15 factors to determine the "class" of freight. It was pretty interesting. Today, I am in a different world, it is "what the market will bear." I like this a lot better than the old regulated days. ed MP173-I remember the joys of rating a mixed shipment only to discover the operating authority was not there on one of the commodities. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,918 posts Posted by MP173 on Friday, April 8, 2005 8:57 AM spbed: I was a "rate man" myself....in LTL trucking. Before it was computerized, it was quite a world. Everyday there would be new tariffs and supplements from the bureaus. All to be filed away. We had the classification guide with 15 factors to determine the "class" of freight. It was pretty interesting. Today, I am in a different world, it is "what the market will bear." I like this a lot better than the old regulated days. ed Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 8, 2005 8:34 AM Good luck in my very early days I used to file our rates with the FMC & attend rate meetings. I sought of enjoyed it. The best was dealing with the shippers who wonder why used newspapers pays $0.01 & photo equipment cost $100.00 a ton as a example. The battle of wits with shippers was very enjoyable to say the least. [:D][:o)][:p] Originally posted by MP173 [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,918 posts Posted by MP173 on Friday, April 8, 2005 8:29 AM Thanks spbed....should have done that. I guess it is time to enter the wonderful world of rates and tariffs again. ed Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 8, 2005 7:46 AM No maybe at the NS site they have a calculator of freight charges you can use to get the number? [:o)][:)][:D] Originally posted by spbed Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,918 posts Posted by MP173 on Friday, April 8, 2005 7:43 AM My favorite train is NS 177 which is a Chicago - Ft Wayne/Cincinnati manifest. When I hear it on the scanner, I go watch it. It almost always has at least 40 cars of scrap metal. Something sort of neat, as an economic railfan, after watching train after train of containers and auto racks to watch a REAL train with boxcars, tanks, covered hoppers, and gons loaded to the brim with scrap metal. I look at it this way...NS177 usually has 100+ cars. If 40 of those are scrap metal, then that is still a very profitable train. Anyone know where rates can be found on scrap? What would a load from Chicago to Ft. Wayne pay? ed Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 8, 2005 7:31 AM Yes heard that word a whole bunch in the S/ship industry "discrimination" used every day by shippers of low paying cargo. They use to complain to the Federal Maritime Commision. There were investigations yada, yada, yada but in the end PROFITS always was the end product of everything. Never any fines. In the S/ship industry no matter if the container was low paying cargo or high paying container it cost the same to load & unload it. I'm sure lets say from NYC to CHIC via CSX the costs to move a car of low paying freight & high paying freight is more or less the same. Again I have not been employed in the RR biz just worked very closely with them & if the RRs are not interested in making mega bucks then oh well to them. [:o)][:p][:D][:)] Originally posted by PNWRMNM SPBED Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,048 posts Posted by daveklepper on Friday, April 8, 2005 3:15 AM Normal safety inspections by the local government authorities would solve the problem. Why don't they do it? Are they being bought off? But there is no reason why you railroaders reading this post cannot call the police after subjecting yourselves to some horror at a scrapmetal siding and report all the safety violations. If all railroaders did this consistantly would not the jobs for all be a lot safer? Sure it takes time. But time you take may prevent future injury! Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 8, 2005 1:43 AM You know what? Forget the rail service to these scrap yards. Foundrys should be built nearby to melt the scrap down to pig iron or whatever we call them today. Then these loads can be shipped out of the foundry on trucks or train as revenue. Reply Edit 12 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Originally posted by Junctionfan Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply corwinda Member sinceJune 2001 From: US 389 posts Posted by corwinda on Friday, April 8, 2005 4:03 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan As far as scrap metal trains, I believe CSX runs a few K500 series as required. Not sure what kind of customer has that much scrap metal for a steel mill. Perhaps a yard that dismantles old ships. Or from pier to mill. Reply Junctionfan Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: St.Catharines, Ontario 3,770 posts Posted by Junctionfan on Friday, April 8, 2005 1:12 PM Movement of empty cars is a "necessary evil" in railroad profit means. The good thing is that 3 locomotives can haul 180 cars no problem as long as the grade isn't to steep. The interesting thing is that unit trains don't usually need to change cars often so it saves money on buying more railcars to replenish industries with shipping means. That is likely why railroads prefer unit trains. I know CN at one point was in preference to running unit trains. I suspect that the "Tank Train" cars of GATX was built for that kind of purpose. As far as scrap metal trains, I believe CSX runs a few K500 series as required. Not sure what kind of customer has that much scrap metal for a steel mill. Andrew Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Friday, April 8, 2005 12:13 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Bob, perhaps you can help with other accessorial charges. Typically, what other charges can a shipper expect.? Is there a charge for switching into an industry? Or is that part of the rate? Lets say NS hands off to a short line for final delivery...does NS split their rate with the short line or does that carrier also bill the customer? What about return of empty private cars? If a customer ships food oil in a private tank car...ADM, Bunge, AGP, Cargill, etc...what is the charge to return the mt tank car? Is there a mileage allowance. In general, based on loose car movements. The most common added charges are for weighing and demurage. One switch in and out of an industry is included in the rate. However, you will see caps on this because some carriers have tried to limit access with very high switching charges. Shortlines either have a contract with the connecting Class I for a fixed fee per car or they take a percentage of the through rate. The fixed fee approach is the most common with the shortline not appearing in the route on the bill of lading. Shipper owned cars are returned empty to the loading point without charge. However, if you shipped a load from TX to PA and went to send the empty out to WA there will probably be a charge in cents per mile for the extra distance. Prior to Staggers the railroads paid a feee in cents per mile to use shipper cars. It was a rate the ICC perscribed. However, in an effort to save the accounting expense, only about 10% of the traffic still moves on this basis. The rest move on so called zero mileage payout rates where the equipment cost is backed out of the rate. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,918 posts Posted by MP173 on Friday, April 8, 2005 10:42 AM I just spent a wonderful hour in the world of railroad tariffs. NS does not have published tariffs for scrap available to the general public. You must register in order to get access. In order to register, you must have an NS employee (probably sales person) sponser you. However, there were some public rates out there... But, it was interesting looking at lumber, grain, and fertilizer rates!!!! A 500 mile haul of food oil yiels about $1985 in a shipper supplied car. A 500 mile haul of grain in a greater than 5000 cf cover hopper is $2033. Joint line lumber rates for NS and CSX are in effect. The 500 mile rate is $2585 to be split between the two carriers for a big flatcar. Proportionate rates coming from another carrier at either Chicago or Streator yield $2277 for a big flat car for 500 miles. All of that revenue goes to NS. It appears that a hefty fuel surcharge is in affect. Their tariff states .4% of line haul for every $1 above $23.00 for west Texas crude. That is about 13% today. Bob, perhaps you can help with other accessorial charges. Typically, what other charges can a shipper expect.? Is there a charge for switching into an industry? Or is that part of the rate? Lets say NS hands off to a short line for final delivery...does NS split their rate with the short line or does that carrier also bill the customer? What about return of empty private cars? If a customer ships food oil in a private tank car...ADM, Bunge, AGP, Cargill, etc...what is the charge to return the mt tank car? Is there a mileage allowance. Back in the day, I worked for a small LTL carrier and we interlined with the major carriers. We would split revenue based on an old book of railroad rates. It had been published sometime in the 20's and there were "factors" for interline points such as Chicago, Indianaplis, etc. I wish I would have kept a copy. ed Reply mudchicken Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Denver / La Junta 10,794 posts Posted by mudchicken on Friday, April 8, 2005 10:16 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper Normal safety inspections by the local government authorities would solve the problem. Why don't they do it? Are they being bought off? But there is no reason why you railroaders reading this post cannot call the police after subjecting yourselves to some horror at a scrapmetal siding and report all the safety violations. If all railroaders did this consistantly would not the jobs for all be a lot safer? Sure it takes time. But time you take may prevent future injury! (1) FRA is hard stretched to inspect trackage on the common carriers, much less trackage owned by individual industries. They will come if called on a case by case basis and talk to an individual track owner (who usually feigns ignorance.) (1a) Railroads are bound to inspect only the track that they own, not neccessarilly operate over. It's up to the operating supervision to bring in a track department person to inspect out of bounds if they see something wrong. Track guys will look beyond the line where they can to spot trouble, but they cannot go out of their way. (If the forum could only see the finger pointing that goes on after a track caused derailment on industry owned track. The industry rarely wants to pay for anything, cannot justify regular maintenance and inspection costs, thinks track lasts forever and is outraged when the railroad sends it a track repair bill after a derailment or when the track deteriorates to the point the train cannot get over it and they need cars) (2) The State PUC or Railroad Commission will come out and inspect and order a track removed from service if it violates a state statute (usually road crossing or clearance issue).....there is no longer a qualified individual in Colorado to do this since the last PUC Railroad Engineer retired (he was VERY good and is now sorely missed)[V] ... again the industry feigns ignorance even though you beat them over the head with the facts after giving up on gentile persuasion long ago with them.....This is as close as you get to police daveklepper! Neither (1) or (2) wants to discourage commerce, and they try to persuade the industry to straighten out, but I have seen them pull the plug on rare occasion. (3) Chicken solution, you forbid (by sign and superintendents notice) to spot cars or have employees go past a certain point on a track where it is known to be safe and in compliance, force the industry to come get the cars. more bellyaching to be heard from the industry I personally have done (1), (2) and (3)....sometimes at the risk of getting called on the carpet by a superintendent (most understanding, some witless "Odies") after the 'supe gets his butt chewed by the shipper. [soapbox][soapbox][soapbox] Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 8, 2005 10:15 AM Well my world today is clicking on A/trade to see what is going on with my investments. However, as I said I do miss the battle of wits with the shippers. In the steamship world whatever the shipper described his shipment as was how it was rated. For guidance they were also required to furnish us with a US Customs form call a "shippers export declaration" which had a schedule "B" number. By checking that number in the schedule "B" book you would know if the shipper descripition was correct as the presumption was the shipper would not lie to the US Customs. For me it was easier as I had the authority to fix a rate without have to go to a bureau for approval as the FMC rules were so long as the rate agreed upon was lower then the filed rate. So we would file a really super hi rate & then be able to barter with the shipper for a rate that they would accept that would be lower then the filed rate. Thats what made it such fun was that the shipper wanted to pay 1/2 a widget we wanted him to pay 10 widgets. [:o)][:D][:p] Originally posted by MP173 Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Friday, April 8, 2005 9:59 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 spbed: I was a "rate man" myself....in LTL trucking. Before it was computerized, it was quite a world. Everyday there would be new tariffs and supplements from the bureaus. All to be filed away. We had the classification guide with 15 factors to determine the "class" of freight. It was pretty interesting. Today, I am in a different world, it is "what the market will bear." I like this a lot better than the old regulated days. ed MP173-I remember the joys of rating a mixed shipment only to discover the operating authority was not there on one of the commodities. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,918 posts Posted by MP173 on Friday, April 8, 2005 8:57 AM spbed: I was a "rate man" myself....in LTL trucking. Before it was computerized, it was quite a world. Everyday there would be new tariffs and supplements from the bureaus. All to be filed away. We had the classification guide with 15 factors to determine the "class" of freight. It was pretty interesting. Today, I am in a different world, it is "what the market will bear." I like this a lot better than the old regulated days. ed Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 8, 2005 8:34 AM Good luck in my very early days I used to file our rates with the FMC & attend rate meetings. I sought of enjoyed it. The best was dealing with the shippers who wonder why used newspapers pays $0.01 & photo equipment cost $100.00 a ton as a example. The battle of wits with shippers was very enjoyable to say the least. [:D][:o)][:p] Originally posted by MP173 [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,918 posts Posted by MP173 on Friday, April 8, 2005 8:29 AM Thanks spbed....should have done that. I guess it is time to enter the wonderful world of rates and tariffs again. ed Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 8, 2005 7:46 AM No maybe at the NS site they have a calculator of freight charges you can use to get the number? [:o)][:)][:D] Originally posted by spbed Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,918 posts Posted by MP173 on Friday, April 8, 2005 7:43 AM My favorite train is NS 177 which is a Chicago - Ft Wayne/Cincinnati manifest. When I hear it on the scanner, I go watch it. It almost always has at least 40 cars of scrap metal. Something sort of neat, as an economic railfan, after watching train after train of containers and auto racks to watch a REAL train with boxcars, tanks, covered hoppers, and gons loaded to the brim with scrap metal. I look at it this way...NS177 usually has 100+ cars. If 40 of those are scrap metal, then that is still a very profitable train. Anyone know where rates can be found on scrap? What would a load from Chicago to Ft. Wayne pay? ed Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 8, 2005 7:31 AM Yes heard that word a whole bunch in the S/ship industry "discrimination" used every day by shippers of low paying cargo. They use to complain to the Federal Maritime Commision. There were investigations yada, yada, yada but in the end PROFITS always was the end product of everything. Never any fines. In the S/ship industry no matter if the container was low paying cargo or high paying container it cost the same to load & unload it. I'm sure lets say from NYC to CHIC via CSX the costs to move a car of low paying freight & high paying freight is more or less the same. Again I have not been employed in the RR biz just worked very closely with them & if the RRs are not interested in making mega bucks then oh well to them. [:o)][:p][:D][:)] Originally posted by PNWRMNM SPBED Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,048 posts Posted by daveklepper on Friday, April 8, 2005 3:15 AM Normal safety inspections by the local government authorities would solve the problem. Why don't they do it? Are they being bought off? But there is no reason why you railroaders reading this post cannot call the police after subjecting yourselves to some horror at a scrapmetal siding and report all the safety violations. If all railroaders did this consistantly would not the jobs for all be a lot safer? Sure it takes time. But time you take may prevent future injury! Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 8, 2005 1:43 AM You know what? Forget the rail service to these scrap yards. Foundrys should be built nearby to melt the scrap down to pig iron or whatever we call them today. Then these loads can be shipped out of the foundry on trucks or train as revenue. Reply Edit 12 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan As far as scrap metal trains, I believe CSX runs a few K500 series as required. Not sure what kind of customer has that much scrap metal for a steel mill.
QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Bob, perhaps you can help with other accessorial charges. Typically, what other charges can a shipper expect.? Is there a charge for switching into an industry? Or is that part of the rate? Lets say NS hands off to a short line for final delivery...does NS split their rate with the short line or does that carrier also bill the customer? What about return of empty private cars? If a customer ships food oil in a private tank car...ADM, Bunge, AGP, Cargill, etc...what is the charge to return the mt tank car? Is there a mileage allowance.
QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper Normal safety inspections by the local government authorities would solve the problem. Why don't they do it? Are they being bought off? But there is no reason why you railroaders reading this post cannot call the police after subjecting yourselves to some horror at a scrapmetal siding and report all the safety violations. If all railroaders did this consistantly would not the jobs for all be a lot safer? Sure it takes time. But time you take may prevent future injury!
Originally posted by MP173 Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Friday, April 8, 2005 9:59 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 spbed: I was a "rate man" myself....in LTL trucking. Before it was computerized, it was quite a world. Everyday there would be new tariffs and supplements from the bureaus. All to be filed away. We had the classification guide with 15 factors to determine the "class" of freight. It was pretty interesting. Today, I am in a different world, it is "what the market will bear." I like this a lot better than the old regulated days. ed MP173-I remember the joys of rating a mixed shipment only to discover the operating authority was not there on one of the commodities. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,918 posts Posted by MP173 on Friday, April 8, 2005 8:57 AM spbed: I was a "rate man" myself....in LTL trucking. Before it was computerized, it was quite a world. Everyday there would be new tariffs and supplements from the bureaus. All to be filed away. We had the classification guide with 15 factors to determine the "class" of freight. It was pretty interesting. Today, I am in a different world, it is "what the market will bear." I like this a lot better than the old regulated days. ed Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 8, 2005 8:34 AM Good luck in my very early days I used to file our rates with the FMC & attend rate meetings. I sought of enjoyed it. The best was dealing with the shippers who wonder why used newspapers pays $0.01 & photo equipment cost $100.00 a ton as a example. The battle of wits with shippers was very enjoyable to say the least. [:D][:o)][:p] Originally posted by MP173 [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,918 posts Posted by MP173 on Friday, April 8, 2005 8:29 AM Thanks spbed....should have done that. I guess it is time to enter the wonderful world of rates and tariffs again. ed Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 8, 2005 7:46 AM No maybe at the NS site they have a calculator of freight charges you can use to get the number? [:o)][:)][:D] Originally posted by spbed Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,918 posts Posted by MP173 on Friday, April 8, 2005 7:43 AM My favorite train is NS 177 which is a Chicago - Ft Wayne/Cincinnati manifest. When I hear it on the scanner, I go watch it. It almost always has at least 40 cars of scrap metal. Something sort of neat, as an economic railfan, after watching train after train of containers and auto racks to watch a REAL train with boxcars, tanks, covered hoppers, and gons loaded to the brim with scrap metal. I look at it this way...NS177 usually has 100+ cars. If 40 of those are scrap metal, then that is still a very profitable train. Anyone know where rates can be found on scrap? What would a load from Chicago to Ft. Wayne pay? ed Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 8, 2005 7:31 AM Yes heard that word a whole bunch in the S/ship industry "discrimination" used every day by shippers of low paying cargo. They use to complain to the Federal Maritime Commision. There were investigations yada, yada, yada but in the end PROFITS always was the end product of everything. Never any fines. In the S/ship industry no matter if the container was low paying cargo or high paying container it cost the same to load & unload it. I'm sure lets say from NYC to CHIC via CSX the costs to move a car of low paying freight & high paying freight is more or less the same. Again I have not been employed in the RR biz just worked very closely with them & if the RRs are not interested in making mega bucks then oh well to them. [:o)][:p][:D][:)] Originally posted by PNWRMNM SPBED Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,048 posts Posted by daveklepper on Friday, April 8, 2005 3:15 AM Normal safety inspections by the local government authorities would solve the problem. Why don't they do it? Are they being bought off? But there is no reason why you railroaders reading this post cannot call the police after subjecting yourselves to some horror at a scrapmetal siding and report all the safety violations. If all railroaders did this consistantly would not the jobs for all be a lot safer? Sure it takes time. But time you take may prevent future injury! Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 8, 2005 1:43 AM You know what? Forget the rail service to these scrap yards. Foundrys should be built nearby to melt the scrap down to pig iron or whatever we call them today. Then these loads can be shipped out of the foundry on trucks or train as revenue. Reply Edit 12 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 spbed: I was a "rate man" myself....in LTL trucking. Before it was computerized, it was quite a world. Everyday there would be new tariffs and supplements from the bureaus. All to be filed away. We had the classification guide with 15 factors to determine the "class" of freight. It was pretty interesting. Today, I am in a different world, it is "what the market will bear." I like this a lot better than the old regulated days. ed
Originally posted by MP173 [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,918 posts Posted by MP173 on Friday, April 8, 2005 8:29 AM Thanks spbed....should have done that. I guess it is time to enter the wonderful world of rates and tariffs again. ed Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 8, 2005 7:46 AM No maybe at the NS site they have a calculator of freight charges you can use to get the number? [:o)][:)][:D] Originally posted by spbed Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,918 posts Posted by MP173 on Friday, April 8, 2005 7:43 AM My favorite train is NS 177 which is a Chicago - Ft Wayne/Cincinnati manifest. When I hear it on the scanner, I go watch it. It almost always has at least 40 cars of scrap metal. Something sort of neat, as an economic railfan, after watching train after train of containers and auto racks to watch a REAL train with boxcars, tanks, covered hoppers, and gons loaded to the brim with scrap metal. I look at it this way...NS177 usually has 100+ cars. If 40 of those are scrap metal, then that is still a very profitable train. Anyone know where rates can be found on scrap? What would a load from Chicago to Ft. Wayne pay? ed Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 8, 2005 7:31 AM Yes heard that word a whole bunch in the S/ship industry "discrimination" used every day by shippers of low paying cargo. They use to complain to the Federal Maritime Commision. There were investigations yada, yada, yada but in the end PROFITS always was the end product of everything. Never any fines. In the S/ship industry no matter if the container was low paying cargo or high paying container it cost the same to load & unload it. I'm sure lets say from NYC to CHIC via CSX the costs to move a car of low paying freight & high paying freight is more or less the same. Again I have not been employed in the RR biz just worked very closely with them & if the RRs are not interested in making mega bucks then oh well to them. [:o)][:p][:D][:)] Originally posted by PNWRMNM SPBED Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,048 posts Posted by daveklepper on Friday, April 8, 2005 3:15 AM Normal safety inspections by the local government authorities would solve the problem. Why don't they do it? Are they being bought off? But there is no reason why you railroaders reading this post cannot call the police after subjecting yourselves to some horror at a scrapmetal siding and report all the safety violations. If all railroaders did this consistantly would not the jobs for all be a lot safer? Sure it takes time. But time you take may prevent future injury! Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 8, 2005 1:43 AM You know what? Forget the rail service to these scrap yards. Foundrys should be built nearby to melt the scrap down to pig iron or whatever we call them today. Then these loads can be shipped out of the foundry on trucks or train as revenue. Reply Edit 12 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Originally posted by spbed Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,918 posts Posted by MP173 on Friday, April 8, 2005 7:43 AM My favorite train is NS 177 which is a Chicago - Ft Wayne/Cincinnati manifest. When I hear it on the scanner, I go watch it. It almost always has at least 40 cars of scrap metal. Something sort of neat, as an economic railfan, after watching train after train of containers and auto racks to watch a REAL train with boxcars, tanks, covered hoppers, and gons loaded to the brim with scrap metal. I look at it this way...NS177 usually has 100+ cars. If 40 of those are scrap metal, then that is still a very profitable train. Anyone know where rates can be found on scrap? What would a load from Chicago to Ft. Wayne pay? ed Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, April 8, 2005 7:31 AM Yes heard that word a whole bunch in the S/ship industry "discrimination" used every day by shippers of low paying cargo. They use to complain to the Federal Maritime Commision. There were investigations yada, yada, yada but in the end PROFITS always was the end product of everything. Never any fines. In the S/ship industry no matter if the container was low paying cargo or high paying container it cost the same to load & unload it. I'm sure lets say from NYC to CHIC via CSX the costs to move a car of low paying freight & high paying freight is more or less the same. Again I have not been employed in the RR biz just worked very closely with them & if the RRs are not interested in making mega bucks then oh well to them. [:o)][:p][:D][:)] Originally posted by PNWRMNM SPBED Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,048 posts Posted by daveklepper on Friday, April 8, 2005 3:15 AM Normal safety inspections by the local government authorities would solve the problem. Why don't they do it? Are they being bought off? But there is no reason why you railroaders reading this post cannot call the police after subjecting yourselves to some horror at a scrapmetal siding and report all the safety violations. If all railroaders did this consistantly would not the jobs for all be a lot safer? Sure it takes time. But time you take may prevent future injury! Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 8, 2005 1:43 AM You know what? Forget the rail service to these scrap yards. Foundrys should be built nearby to melt the scrap down to pig iron or whatever we call them today. Then these loads can be shipped out of the foundry on trucks or train as revenue. Reply Edit 12 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Originally posted by PNWRMNM SPBED Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,048 posts Posted by daveklepper on Friday, April 8, 2005 3:15 AM Normal safety inspections by the local government authorities would solve the problem. Why don't they do it? Are they being bought off? But there is no reason why you railroaders reading this post cannot call the police after subjecting yourselves to some horror at a scrapmetal siding and report all the safety violations. If all railroaders did this consistantly would not the jobs for all be a lot safer? Sure it takes time. But time you take may prevent future injury! Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 8, 2005 1:43 AM You know what? Forget the rail service to these scrap yards. Foundrys should be built nearby to melt the scrap down to pig iron or whatever we call them today. Then these loads can be shipped out of the foundry on trucks or train as revenue. Reply Edit 12 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.