QUOTE: Originally posted by gfjwilmde It I'm sure all of you neo-facist ultra-Christian right-wing Republicans hypocrits will excited to know this. GLENN A R E A L AND D E V O T E D RAILROADER!!!! A R E A L AND D E V O T E D AMTRAKER A R E A L L Y A N G R Y AND D I S G U S T E D AMERICAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
QUOTE: Originally posted by gfjwilmde It just goes to show that the priorities of our government are misguided. They are the puppets of the corporations that are carried on and break the backs of all the working classes of the world. I hope when they go to sleep at night, that their beds aren't to full with all the money they have stolen from us or they may not get a good night's sleep. In a few months, there will be approximently 20,000 more employees out on the street. I'm sure all of you neo-facist ultra-Christian right-wing Republicans hypocrits will excited to know this. GLENN A R E A L AND D E V O T E D RAILROADER!!!! A R E A L AND D E V O T E D AMTRAKER A R E A L L Y A N G R Y AND D I S G U S T E D AMERICAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
QUOTE: Originally posted by gfjwilmde It I'm sure all of you neo-facist ultra-Christian right-wing Republicans hypocrits will excited to know this.
QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. www.yahoo.com News. Then type in Amtrak.
Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98 figers...i expect comments like this from someone that has a mental disorder called LIBERALIZIM....... just get over it...you lost...4 more years...love it or hate it...its time for you to get over it... and if you dont like it....do like the rest of your brothern have been doing..and move to the northern neighbor then..... for you to call eveyone that donst agree with you a neo conservitive or what ever you called us is a typical responce too...your party clames to be liberal and freedoms for eveyone... but yet your people pass the most laws telling us what we can and cant do..and what we can and cant say...you all have the same mentality.... we can say and do what ever we want..as long as it is what you want us to say and do....and that is not america... you might not agree with what im saying and thats fine..that is your right to....just as it is MY RIGHT to say it.... america voted and bush won.... regardless if you agree or dissagree with him...to call eveyone that belives in what america stands for..and not what you want america to be neo christions or what ever...is total BS....you dont like this country..then get out..and dont let the door hit you in the a$$..... csx engineer
QUOTE: Originally posted by SteamerFan QUOTE: Originally posted by gfjwilmde It I'm sure all of you neo-facist ultra-Christian right-wing Republicans hypocrits will excited to know this. Let's see, considering that my Congressman is a so called "neo-facist ultra-Christian right-wing Republicans hypocrit" and is fighting to save Amtrak, while my 2 Democrate Senators are fighting to kill it, doesn't mean a thing to you. You probably better start learning more than "republicans bad, democrates good" because that will just screw you more in the end. There are many, and i mean many ideas on how to save Amtrak on the table, there is talk of scrapping the current system, except the NEC and slowely rebuilding in in a system similar to the NEC throughout the country. there is talk of building high speed independent rails for amtrak, to cut down on time lost due to sharing with the private railways. There is even talk of (and in some areas construction of) high speed maglev service. Belive me, the president has again pointed to a rpoblem, raised public awareness and has gotten the people involved to get congress to act and fix the problem. Funny how people blame a sitting president for all the ills of the world, when in reality, it's congress that has all the power.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45 Fellas! Why are railfans ripping up on each other? Regardless of political leanings we're all on the same boat! Come on! Let's turn off the blow torches and not let emotions control our keyboard strokes! Glen, your comment did help ignite this and I find it saddening. Conservative and Liberal views both have positive points. It's the "extremists" that give both sides a bad name. It's likely that most of us here lean more one way or the other, but are closer to the "middle of the road", agreeing with the best points of both. We can discuss these Amtrak issues like cool minded adults and still "agree to disagree". Some of us here support Amtrak, some of us say kill it, others say restructure it. Let's continue along those points.
QUOTE: Originally posted by SP9033 QUOTE: Originally posted by SteamerFan QUOTE: Originally posted by gfjwilmde It I'm sure all of you neo-facist ultra-Christian right-wing Republicans hypocrits will excited to know this. Let's see, considering that my Congressman is a so called "neo-facist ultra-Christian right-wing Republicans hypocrit" and is fighting to save Amtrak, while my 2 Democrate Senators are fighting to kill it, doesn't mean a thing to you. You probably better start learning more than "republicans bad, democrates good" because that will just screw you more in the end. There are many, and i mean many ideas on how to save Amtrak on the table, there is talk of scrapping the current system, except the NEC and slowely rebuilding in in a system similar to the NEC throughout the country. there is talk of building high speed independent rails for amtrak, to cut down on time lost due to sharing with the private railways. There is even talk of (and in some areas construction of) high speed maglev service. Belive me, the president has again pointed to a rpoblem, raised public awareness and has gotten the people involved to get congress to act and fix the problem. Funny how people blame a sitting president for all the ills of the world, when in reality, it's congress that has all the power. Here we have so much spin...tell me the state and the names of the two demarcated senators that are opposing Amtrak funding. You can't, lies more lies. I find it amusing, the more Christian, the less likely of sharing prosperity with poverty! What a shame, Christ sure would have a different take on this, and it would have nothing to with Wall Street and the moneyed and making more money Jim
QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45 Guys, We're going nowhere very fast! Looks like topic may wind up being deleted.[V][V][V]
QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed H'mm how did religion ever enter a thread about A/trak[?][?][?][?] QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45 Guys, We're going nowhere very fast! Looks like topic may wind up being deleted.[V][V][V]
QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed H'mm how did religion ever enter a thread about A/trak[?][?][?][?] QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45 Guys, We're going nowhere very fast! Looks like topic may wind up being deleted.[V][V][V] I start a topic about Amtrak a they start a war about Politics&Christianty.[V]
QUOTE: Originally posted by SteamerFan QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed H'mm how did religion ever enter a thread about A/trak[?][?][?][?] QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45 Guys, We're going nowhere very fast! Looks like topic may wind up being deleted.[V][V][V] I start a topic about Amtrak a they start a war about Politics&Christianty.[V] you can't talk about Amtrak without talking about the Political aspect, but sure as heck don't know how Christianity falls into all this mess.
QUOTE: Originally posted by tomtrain That congressman also worked hard to save the machine tool industry in his district in the US, machines that make machines. Machines that make machines that make locomotives. Alas...
Have fun with your trains
Quentin
QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar Believe there is budget money until the end of this fiscal year for Amtrak, and if no more is forth coming I hope the first stretch Pres. Gunn shuts down is the NEC. Then we'll listen to the politicans howl.
-ChrisWest Chicago, ILChristopher May Fine Art Photography"In wisdom gathered over time I have found that every experience is a form of exploration." ~Ansel Adams
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
QUOTE: Originally posted by conrailman Amtrak needs alot of New Things like 30 Billion for the Northeast Corridor to get it in A- Shape Again, 500 Fresh Superliners Brand New from the Factory, The Superliners 1 are 26 Years Old and the 2 are going on 10 plus Years Old, 350 New Coaches for the Northeast Corridor Service, 60 New Diners and Crew Dorms for the Single level Trains, and 50 more Viewliners Sleeping Cars. [:)][:D]
QUOTE: Originally posted by Paul Milenkovic donclark: On the highway congestion relief from the NEC, you have some data on the required expansion of highways to replace the NEC? These guys (http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-266.html) claim that Amtrak replaces a car in each lane every 80 seconds (peak) on Amtrak's heaviest NY-Philly segment. Maybe they are not also including the commuter train traffic, which may be part of the Amtrak equation. Do you have some numbers on rail traffic and how many extra highway lanes are required to handle it?
Originally posted by kevinstheRRman Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Saturday, March 19, 2005 7:27 AM ..Well we have plenty of "tax spenders"...whatever side of the aisle they are on { just check our balance sheet}, it just seems too much of it is going to places other than our own needs here in this country. Quentin Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, March 19, 2005 9:46 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by kevinstheRRman HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHHAAH!!!!!!!!! I LOVE IT!! here we go again, Right Vs. Left. That solves a lot of problems. Instead of Debating the actual issue, we come short and insult each other because somebody doesn't believe the exact same thing you do. GOLD! this is GOLD! KEEP IT UP~!! popcorn is almost done! [#ditto][#wstupid].....LOL,The average Railfan seeing some stupid topic on Trains Forums. BNSFrailfan. Reply Edit conrailman Member sinceDecember 2001 From: NS Main Line at MP12 Blairsville,Pa 830 posts Posted by conrailman on Saturday, March 19, 2005 11:04 AM Maybe Rob Krebs from the BNSF could do better job than Dave Gunn? Mr.Krebs made the BNSF the top Railroad in the U.S. Just Maybe he could Make Amtrak a World Class System?[:D][8D] Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Saturday, March 19, 2005 12:27 PM ....From all I have read and witnessed on TV...I'd say Amtrak has about as good a leader in Mr. Gunn as could be desired. Quentin Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, March 19, 2005 9:59 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by conrailman Maybe Rob Krebs from the BNSF could do better job than Dave Gunn? Mr.Krebs made the BNSF the top Railroad in the U.S. Just Maybe he could Make Amtrak a World Class System?[:D][8D] Ya mabe in the year 2050,When the rest of us are dead and gone. BNSFrailfan. Reply Edit MP57313 Member sinceJune 2001 From: L A County, CA, US 1,009 posts Posted by MP57313 on Sunday, March 20, 2005 12:32 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by gfjwilmde If you think it's better to spend more money overseas, rebuilding the infastructures of foriegn countries, than to rebuild the ones in your country, then you need a 'check up from the neck up'. Hmmm. Maybe if we fold Amtrak under the Department of Defense it would be on more solid footing? Seriously, though, you have a good point. The overseas rebuilding is being done by private contractors performing on DoD contracts. These contractors are corporations, but the funding is primarily US taxpayer monies. Reply gfjwilmde Member sinceNovember 2004 65 posts Posted by gfjwilmde on Sunday, March 20, 2005 4:47 PM To all you railroaders and railfans in these forums...I apologize...again. I'm not one who can truely hide their emotions well, especially when I come to something that affects them personally...like loosing my job(again) because someone can't make a buck off of it. To MP57313, that may sound like a solution, but consider this, out nation's Coast Guard actually falls under the Department of Transportation, eventhough they are sometimes included in the Defense Department's affairs from time to time. I found this out when I served in our nation's Army. I think however, the government needs to reform itself first, before it can suggest that concept to some other government entity. I remember reading a Jane's reference book on all the world's railroads, and in it I remember reading that the French government owns its nation's right of ways and has usage aggrements with the various operating companies. That could be a concept that can be tried here in the areas that have high density corridors. However, the French government still finances its nation's railroads, so it's not such a 'free market capitalistic society after all. However Amtrak if saved or not, the fact is some people will/may loose their jobs. I've made some friends here in my twelve years, and I would hate to see someone I know get laid off all because of someone's unrealistic concepts. It's hard to explain this to anyone if you've never had to experience it for yourself. I've lived it and I've seen it for myself and it's a hard bitter pill to swallow. So once again, for all of those in these forums that are true and honest railroaders or railfans, please accept this, my humblest apologies for any of the comments that I've writtien or will write in the future. However, do me(and yourselves) this one favor . . ."THINK"! ! ! Have a blessed day!!! GLENN A R E A L AND D E V O T E D RAILROADER!!!! A R E A L AND D E V O T E D AMTRAKER!!!! the sophisticated hobo Reply MP57313 Member sinceJune 2001 From: L A County, CA, US 1,009 posts Posted by MP57313 on Sunday, March 20, 2005 5:33 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by gfjwilmde To MP57313, that may sound like a solution, but consider this, out nation's Coast Guard actually falls under the Department of Transportation, eventhough they are sometimes included in the Defense Department's affairs from time to time. GLENN Glenn, Actually that was just a 'point to discuss' and not a recommendation. But I do work with folks who manage government contracts. Most of them lean conservative, but are not opposed to Amtrak per se. There are some pro-Armageddon types but most are just ordinary folks making a living. [#offtopic]The porous border between the US and Mexico, and the inability of government folks to grasp the compliance burdens of the laws they pass are much bigger issues that funding for rail service. If a government employee working overseas chooses to fly a "non-US flag airline" no harm no foul. If a US government contractor flies the same foreign airline, all sorts of justification is needed (to prove that there were no US flag carriers available, etc.). Corporations are required to balance their financial books and records, but large government agencies, including the DoD, are unable to (and will not be able to for the forseeable future). It is these inequities that are aggravating! End [soapbox] MP Reply gvdobler Member sinceNovember 2014 595 posts Posted by gvdobler on Sunday, March 20, 2005 6:42 PM Remember that the government has zero money. The government has no income. The only money they have, they took out of someone's pocket. How much of your check this week should we keep out to give to support AMTRAK? Before you step on your bottom lip, don't say we should make the corporations pay or the rich. They already pay the lion's share of taxes. They also pay your paycheck or your retirement check. The question is, how much more are you willing to pay? Reply conrailman Member sinceDecember 2001 From: NS Main Line at MP12 Blairsville,Pa 830 posts Posted by conrailman on Sunday, March 20, 2005 8:33 PM This isn't a Fair System we give the Highways 35 Billion and Airlines 16 Billion, and Amtrak just 360 Million is just not Fair this year? Congress Should Give Amtrak 5 cents of the Gas Taxes we pay in Federal Taxes, I think the Federal taxes 18 cent. off of 18 cents we give amtrak 5 cents of that instead of giving at 5 cent to the Government to give it to Amtrak.[:D][8D] Reply jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Sunday, March 20, 2005 8:49 PM gvdobler, As I have noted several times before, the per capita tax load for Amtrak is is about $4.00 per year. It you want to see just how big a tax bite that makes for you, multiply the number on the "Total Tax" line on your federal income tax return for 2004 by .00142. If you don't want to do that, a word of caution. If the there is no subsidy for Amtrak and the money is promised to go back as tax refund, I'd wait to get the check before you put money down on the Mecerdes. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply gvdobler Member sinceNovember 2014 595 posts Posted by gvdobler on Sunday, March 20, 2005 9:22 PM Spoken by a true tax advocate. The per capita doesn't pay taxes. Add up all those small taxes and that's why the tax burden is so high. Everyone thinks someone else pays it. If you ask a direct question you get nonsense. How much of the money you make in a year should be taken from you. You are already paying over 50% in various taxes. If you don't believe that you're just not very well informed. Reply jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Sunday, March 20, 2005 10:55 PM I happen to know exactly what I pay in federal and state income taxes, property taxes, social security and medicare taxes, gas taxes and sales taxes. It is quite a bit short of 50% of my income. When adding them all up, the portion going for my share of the Amtrak subsidy drops to something like .00071 times the total. Because of a business service I perform, over 1000 taxpayers with incomes ranging from four figures to six figures allow me to see their income and tax information and I can assure you that none of them pay 50% of their income for various taxes. The only cirumstance I know where a person may pay 50% or more of income for taxes is when all sources of income have been cut off and they have had to pay a property tax bill on a home that they have been able to continue to own. That is very rare, but when it happens none of their tax money is going to support Amtrak. Yes, it is true that per capita doesn't pay taxes. However, persons do. If this works better for you, the average cost of the Amtrak subsidy per person living in the United States is $4.00 per year. As far as not being well informed, perhaps I don't read or listen enough to the popular media or some politicians when they are speaking about taxes. Maybe that is because all too often the are not presenting the whole truth of the matter. And then some are not providing any truth. "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply bbrant Member sinceFebruary 2001 415 posts Posted by bbrant on Monday, March 21, 2005 5:10 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by conrailman This isn't a Fair System we give the Highways 35 Billion and Airlines 16 Billion, and Amtrak just 360 Million is just not Fair this year? Congress Should Give Amtrak 5 cents of the Gas Taxes we pay in Federal Taxes, I think the Federal taxes 18 cent. off of 18 cents we give amtrak 5 cents of that instead of giving at 5 cent to the Government to give it to Amtrak.[:D][8D] Good point. Let's treat Amtrak like a welfare recipient. That way they never need to worry about trying to make money because Uncle Sam will always be there to help them out. Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,025 posts Posted by daveklepper on Monday, March 21, 2005 5:17 AM I'd rather treat them like the fire department, the police, the armed services, the street clearners, the local symphiny orchestra ,and the school system, all performng necessary services. Including the symphony orchestra. Reply bbrant Member sinceFebruary 2001 415 posts Posted by bbrant on Monday, March 21, 2005 5:44 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper I'd rather treat them like the fire department, the police, the armed services, the street clearners, the local symphiny orchestra ,and the school system, all performng necessary services. Including the symphony orchestra. You mentioned organizations which aren't expected to make a profit. Amtrak is a business that needs to be concerned about making money. Reply jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Monday, March 21, 2005 6:30 AM Yes Dave, just like all the other modern railroad passenger services in developed nations that never get any monetary support from their governments and make a profit. LOL. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Monday, March 21, 2005 7:35 AM ....Aren't these "modern passenger services in developed nations"...that make a profit really very rare if in fact overall they do at all.... And for us tax payers paying about 4 dollars each to support Amtrak a year....Let's figure what it cost's each of us to continue this Iraqi {war}, operations and it being one of the leading oil producing nations in the world and Uncle Sam still has to "pay"...for their recovery....!! And on top of that with all this mess in the mid east....among other reasons, our gasoline prices are skyrocketing out of sight. Quentin Reply jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Monday, March 21, 2005 8:44 AM Modelcar You got it. Think hens teeth. Iraq is said to have run up a bill of about 200 billion. That's roughly $665 per person. With three in my family, that starts to get a little serious. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply bbrant Member sinceFebruary 2001 415 posts Posted by bbrant on Monday, March 21, 2005 9:07 AM jeaton - So you're saying you'd rather see cuts to our troops who are fighting a war so we can give that money to a faltering passanger service? Reply jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Monday, March 21, 2005 9:48 AM Oh sure, especially since a member of my immediate family and several close friends are are in military service. I mean, after all that is their problem. I only want the government to spend money on things that I want. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply gvdobler Member sinceNovember 2014 595 posts Posted by gvdobler on Monday, March 21, 2005 10:49 AM The 50 % tax I referred to includes much more than the taxes mentioned. You pay tax built into to many things. Look at your phone bill for the "Gore" tax or federal subscriber tax. If you research it enough, you will find that out of every dollar you make, over 50% goes to a tax of some kind. The $4.00 per person would be correct if everyone paid the same, but as I mentioned over 80% of taxes are paid by about 20% of tax payers. Stating that $4.00 per person nonsense is a typical tax double talk. The entire population does not pay taxes, only tax payers pay taxes. When we send income tax refunds to people that did not pay any income taxes, guess who pays that bill. I think that we should adopt a $ 1,000 per vote rule. For every $1,000 you pay in taxes you get 1 vote. That should allow me to counter 50-60 people that want to spend my money. [:D] I'll let you have the last word, albeit may incorrect. Reply Junctionfan Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: St.Catharines, Ontario 3,770 posts Posted by Junctionfan on Monday, March 21, 2005 11:04 AM So for so far am I right to assume that the biggest problem next to lack of funding is too much passenger trains and not enough ridership to support it and its operating costs? Does a Great Lakes Corridor seem like a good strategy and good direction to follow? Andrew Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Monday, March 21, 2005 11:30 AM ....A comment on supplying our troops. I don't want them to go without where ever they are...! The big promise was that "oil" money {plenty of it}, was going to finance all that needed to be done over there...Saddam is gone and we're still there and no end in sight....and still paying billions to be there...with our tax money. American troops must have supplies of what they need wherever they are...I have a bit of insite on that as I was one of them 50 some years ago way over there.... Quentin Reply jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Monday, March 21, 2005 12:21 PM gvdobler It is obvious that you have enjoyed a reasonably good level of financial success and most likly that has come as a result of your own hard work. Good for you. Using the factors that I have worked out, your share of the Amtrak subsidy would come to about $43 bucks. So maybe I am off and it is $100.00. I know, you have to watch the dollars. Modlecar I'm with you. My service was about 40 years ago. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply conrailman Member sinceDecember 2001 From: NS Main Line at MP12 Blairsville,Pa 830 posts Posted by conrailman on Monday, March 21, 2005 1:13 PM The War just Toped 300 Billion Dollars, last week. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, March 21, 2005 1:43 PM Greeting everyone, I'm new to this forum. I think the point you're missing about susbidizing Amtrak (or other utilities) is that unprofitable does not mean uneconomic. Non-users benefit form rail services to, due to things like reduced road congestion and other amenities. For instance I spend a week a year working on a tourist railway in Scotland. The guy who runs the post office by one of our stations admits that without the trade our railway brings him, he'd go out of business. Thus the village benefits from having the railway. In the 1980's it was calculated that one of the biggest lost making lines in Britain, The Cambrian Coast line in Mid-Wales was losing £900,000 per year, but the economic benefits it brought to the area were worth about £2.5 million a year. So although unprofitable it was certainly not uneconomic. Reply Edit Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Monday, March 21, 2005 3:17 PM ....Reasonable point. {unprofitable and not uneconomic}. ...And Yes Jay, we needed to keep having those c-rations coming...Ha. Quentin Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, March 21, 2005 3:39 PM i find it appalling that the caption says AMTRAK is dead it is not ihave worked for more than thirty years in thr railroad industry and the best way to find out if congress and oue senators and mr.bush is to asked each member of congress hae yo ever taken amtrak in your life ,i would like to here there reply. Reply Edit bbrant Member sinceFebruary 2001 415 posts Posted by bbrant on Monday, March 21, 2005 3:49 PM I have to agree with skydome in that I can't see Amtrak as completely going away. No matter if you are or aren't in favor of budget cuts, I still can't see a total shutdown of the only national passenger rail system in our country. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, March 21, 2005 6:01 PM I still wonder why some haven't jumped all over the idea about the U.S. shelling out $10 Billion for the Iraqi RR, in the same light "those" are grilling Amtrak. Is that Ok, while letting Amtrak die? And, all of the foreign aid we give to other nations, I say, indirectly supports those foreign railroads. Because, most foreign railroads are subsidized by their gov't. that receives "foreign aid" from the good 'ol USA. Why has it always been we have plenty of $$$ for everyone else outside of our borders, but, not for those inside our borders?? How about more "USA aid" and less "foreign aid"? Plus, I still don't understand all of the negative aspects about Amtrak on a train fan's bulletin board. Why is Amtrak an "evil" mode of transportation, but, it's Ok for the airlines and the highways to receive the biggest chunks of the transportation budget? We have tunnels that date back to the Civil War, catenary poles that were placed in the 1930's, etc. But, then again, I know there are some states who say we don't benefit from Amtrak, so, why should "our" tax dollars go into that? And, as before, I've stated, I'm sure some of my federal tax dollars over the years have been spent in states that in no way Maryland would benefit from. Amtrak wasn't setup to succeed - at least not by what has been granted in the past years, and, what needs to be done now after years and years of postponed repairs. Plus, I don't think anyone on the Pres. Bush's Amtrak committee is pro-Amtrak. The deck is stacked against Amtrak. But, still, I don't want to lose my job, but, if the gov't. feels they want to do away with Amtrak, ok, do it. Let the northeasterners, and, the rail commuters in the other states across the country jump into their cars and take to the highways, burn more gasoline, drive the prices of gas up even more, add to the highway congestion, and make your drive that much longer going to and from work. Either pull this nagging toothache, or, do a little drilling to save the tooth. But, keep in mind, "our" tax dollars will still be going outside of our borders to support foreign railroads, as their riders may say "thank you America". Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, March 21, 2005 7:12 PM I've heard rumors here and there over the years that Amtrak was in financial trouble. They use to run through a couple of times a day down here in south Texas where I live back in the early 90s, but it didn't last long due to lack of public interest. If it does finally go belly up, I hope there will at least be some form of passenger rail service to take its place. You would think Union Pacific or BNSF would jump at the chance seeing as how they've swallowed up everything else... Reply Edit Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Monday, March 21, 2005 9:02 PM ....I believe Mr. Gunn said over a year ago if he doesn't have the funds he indicated was needed to run the system safely and properly, less budget money would mean shut down time. He had structured the system about as lean as he could and still run it safely. I believe he was speaking of the complete system. Quentin Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,025 posts Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 2:31 AM Comment: We are not fighting the Iraqi people. We are fighting for the Iraqi people against terrrorists. The Euorpeans seem to have worked out a deal with the terrorists and Hezbolah legally operates businesses in all ECM countries! Thanks to French President Charac. But the deal is: We will let you raise money and operate business if you direct your terrorism only against Israel . Not against Jews in our country but only against Israel. Problem is: All the terrorist organizations are connected, all the Arab Fundamentalist organizations, and support for terror against Israel is also support for terror against USA and Briti***roops in Iraq. All are against democracy and for Islamic fundamentalist states. (Not the comparitively mild Islam of Egypt or Turkey or Jordan or Morroco, which allows Christians to build churches.) And the goal of all these terrorists organizations is an Islam Fundamentalist State, like Saudi Arabia's where Mecca is located. If there were RELIGIOUS FREEDOM in Saudi Arabia, the sources of terrorism would dry up pretty quickly and our troops could come home, and the PLO could finally make peace with Israel. And there would be more money for governent aid to raise freight capacity and for passenger and transit services. That is the truth. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 3:44 AM AMEN !!! AMEN !!! Brother Dave, AMEN!!! AMEN!!! And that is the Truth! Reply Edit bbrant Member sinceFebruary 2001 415 posts Posted by bbrant on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 4:54 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar ....I believe Mr. Gunn said over a year ago if he doesn't have the funds he indicated was needed to run the system safely and properly, less budget money would mean shut down time. He had structured the system about as lean as he could and still run it safely. I believe he was speaking of the complete system. Sounds like Mr. Gunn is acting like the little kid who will take his ball and go home if the other kids won't play by his rules. There's the problem. If Amtrak shuts down, and I doubt seriously that it will, we'll know why. Not because of the funding but because Gunn said the hell with it. Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,025 posts Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 5:16 AM O do not agree at all. When Amtrak lays off people, it is responsible for severance pay . So reducing the number of trains and routes does not save much money if any. Not right away. And David Gunn is not about to compromise safety. So he is forced to do exactly what he says he will. It isn't his choice, it would be the circumstances. I doubt it will shut down because even President Bush will probably come to see the light, that a significant portion of the American public, inluding the majority who don't have immediate plans to use it, still regard it as an ESSENTIAL service that is probide most ECOMICALLY under the present arrangement. Reply bbrant Member sinceFebruary 2001 415 posts Posted by bbrant on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 5:29 AM Where there's a will there's a way. If Mr. Gunn wants to keep Amtrak going, he can and will find a way. I'm also certain that President Bush is very aware of the economic ramifications of a full Amtrak shutdown. This is why it won't happen. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 6:38 AM I have read nothing on this news item, but wouldn't the government help these guys out the way they help the airlines when they're in trouble? Reply Edit Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 7:44 AM ....In my opinion, Mr. Gunn has ALREADY found the only way to keep it going and has implemented it....We're looking at it in the daily operations. Any reduced funding than what is keeping the system going as we now have it....will simply be the word to stop operations because for many reasons {some included above in Dave's post}, and it won't be because Mr. Gunn wants to act like "a little kid"....It simply will be reality...! Quentin Reply bbrant Member sinceFebruary 2001 415 posts Posted by bbrant on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 8:40 AM Then at what point will Amtrak be fully funded? Give them X amount now and they'll still come back again saying they couldn't operate due to a lack of funding. I said it before and I said it again, at some point you have to take the training wheels off the bike. Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 1:31 PM ...Brian: If Amtrak wouldn't have found such an experienced transit and railway person some years ago when he was then installed as president we'd probably be seeing the last remnants of Amtrak being hauled into the Junk yard by now... If we want to retain passenger rail service...you and I believe all of us know it costs money to perform that service....just like it costs money to do anything else so to retain the level of service we have or better yet had a year or so ago, before the last train off's....it requires what Mr. Gunn has requested or the trains don't run...I believe it's just as simple as that....We pay or they don't run. The price of 4 dollars or so a tax payer isn't too bad, even for a retiree like me, so it's a matter whether our administration is going to hold to it's word of {no funding}, or fund as requested....We either stop the trains or pay and allow to run them. I believe If Pres. Bush has his way, they will stop....And if that is the case, {I will say it again}, stop them all...! All this transportation business costs money....Just today in a national article in the paper relates how the airline business {now}, is awash in red ink...! Quentin Reply oltmannd Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: Atlanta 11,968 posts Posted by oltmannd on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 3:06 PM Here are a couple of observations: 1. Amtrak had a pretty good RR manager at the top for while. Remember Graham Claytor? Gunn is very similar to him. Between them we had Downs and Warrington - who were just terrible (as hindsight shows). Downs did that "yield mgt" scheme to try to improve the economic perf. of the LD trains. It just made it worse! Warrington just kept saying what Congress wanted to hear about a "glide slope", just to survive another year. In retrospect - a huge blunder. 2. Amtrak has a "poison pill" labor deal. You can't just scale back the system - you wind up paying a bunch of folks for not working - the same as if they were working - and have no revenue. Someone posted that Congress forced this deal on Amtrak. I don't remember it that way. I thought it was a clever managment protection scheme - Amtrak's mgt bought in with hardly a whimper. But, I've been wrong before. So, it isn't that Gunn is acting on a personal level - he is very professional and always has been. The "all or nothing" doesn't appear to be based on feels, just facts. -Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/) Reply bbrant Member sinceFebruary 2001 415 posts Posted by bbrant on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 5:18 PM Quentin - I still don't see that President Bush wants to put Amtrak out of business. It would be political and economic suicide. I still say he wants to see Amtrak survive without as much funding from the government and more from the private sector. Personally, I support that. $4 may not seem like a lot but if I can keep it, I'm keeping it. I could be wrong but the way I see it, right now David Gunn and Pres. Bush are in a starring contest to see who will blink first. Gunn says he'll shut down and Bush is saying no funding. I have every confidence that the two will compromise and this will be over. Reply jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 12:52 AM Don I am pretty sure that Congress had some hand in the labor protection agreements. Recall reading something about it somewhere. (How is that for an authority.) I'll admit I don't remember the details. It is sort of moot now, because it is part of the contract, and I don't think it is possible for Amtrak to unilaterally back out of the deal, so long as it is a continuing operation. Fat chance that the unions would even let that item get on the table. It is unfortunate, but the business world is full of managers who either cannot or will not provide employees with the resources necessary to get a job done. These managers will use words like "It's your job, I don't care how you do it, just get it done." If not direct, it is implied that a career or employment is on the line. Dave Gunn has never done ego trips and he is not doing one now. As has been mentioned before, Gunn had to be talked into coming out of retirement to take the Amtrak job and there is no way any threats of career or employment conditions could cause him any concern. Like the news or not, Gunn is merely stating what has to happen at the point when there is no longer sufficient ca***o continue operations. If you look carefully, you will see that Gunn is not saying that he will shut down Amtrak if government funds are not budgeted or for that matter if the second step, the appropriation of funds (the actual authority to distribute the funds) fails. What he is saying is that when Amtrak's cash reaches a certain level, it will not be able to continue operations. It should be noted that Gunn probably does not have the authority to shut down Amtrak. That kind of authority rest with the Amtrak Board of Directors and of the board members, Gunn is the only director that was not appointed by the President Bush. "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 7:56 AM ...No, I see no compromise between Mr. Gunn and ANY authority no matter who it will be....For several reasons stated above Mr. Gunn will when the point is reached that he can not send out trains to transport passengers that he feels can operate safely, that is the conditions under his control....are still operating...he will at that time begin to organize the orderly shut down and storage of all the equipment and that will be it ...unless or until conditions change to provide that safety that the system can operate. And of course that is just one aspect of it. And I'm sure we all understand that so no use to beat through that again. If it continues to go as it is now....Mr. Gunn will shut it down for many of the reasons several of us are stating here... Mr. Gunn has no career to protect...That's already been indicated above...He was practically dragged out of retirement and perhaps at times wonders why he is where he is fighting such non winnable battles. Brian, as for the 4 dollars....I've stated my thoughts on that above but on the other side, since I've retired I rarely use any airline and if we could have the amount that figure might be out of my income in tax....It probably would be many times that of Amtrak. That really doesn't bother me much, it's the uneveness we {our leaders}, apply these monies to in our transportation systems. Quentin Reply bbrant Member sinceFebruary 2001 415 posts Posted by bbrant on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 8:27 AM I still see the "shutdown" as a scare technique being used by David Gunn to get Federal funding. As for the uneveness...I don't see it that way. Anytime money is given out, there are always complaints about never getting enough. I'm sure those in the other parts of the transportation system are crying the blues too. Which leads me to my earlier question, when will any transportation system ever be fully funded? Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 9:13 AM Brian: Don't know how you can think of Mr. Gunn as operating in such a matter....I'm sure you have read articles of his career and history of rail management qualities as I have, etc....and I haven't been informed through that means of any trait as you seem to be laying on him. Why can't the facts speak for themselves....There is so much evidence sitting around such as viewliner, and other passenger cars dormant at locations like Beechgrove..{repair facility here in Indiana}, needing repair or refurbishing so they can be put back into operation and hence be able to furnish make up cars for routes now not having cars to do so...and the list goes on....The funds are not available to the Amtrak system to do these repairs and now the President wants to cut the funds to "0".....How can we expect the system to continue at all....! I've just touched on pieces of perhaps what needs done to continue to run a viable system....And as you state above "always complaints about never getting enough"....Well, is "none" enough....Come on lets get real.... We both know rail transportation is not favorved by the President and I think we both know he is strong minded and I believe we both realize the time has come...{in his mind}, he is going to end it...And perhaps he will get it done this time. Quentin Reply oltmannd Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: Atlanta 11,968 posts Posted by oltmannd on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 9:50 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton Don I am pretty sure that Congress had some hand in the labor protection agreements. Recall reading something about it somewhere. (How is that for an authority.) I'll admit I don't remember the details. It is sort of moot now, because it is part of the contract, and I don't think it is possible for Amtrak to unilaterally back out of the deal, so long as it is a continuing operation. Fat chance that the unions would even let that item get on the table. It is unfortunate, but the business world is full of managers who either cannot or will not provide employees with the resources necessary to get a job done. These managers will use words like "It's your job, I don't care how you do it, just get it done." If not direct, it is implied that a career or employment is on the line. Dave Gunn has never done ego trips and he is not doing one now. As has been mentioned before, Gunn had to be talked into coming out of retirement to take the Amtrak job and there is no way any threats of career or employment conditions could cause him any concern. Like the news or not, Gunn is merely stating what has to happen at the point when there is no longer sufficient ca***o continue operations. If you look carefully, you will see that Gunn is not saying that he will shut down Amtrak if government funds are not budgeted or for that matter if the second step, the appropriation of funds (the actual authority to distribute the funds) fails. What he is saying is that when Amtrak's cash reaches a certain level, it will not be able to continue operations. It should be noted that Gunn probably does not have the authority to shut down Amtrak. That kind of authority rest with the Amtrak Board of Directors and of the board members, Gunn is the only director that was not appointed by the President Bush. If Congress had a hand in the labor protection in the labor agreement, then shame on them if they use bankruptcy as an "end-run" on the deal they helped create! I think Gunn COULD shut down the system in an orderly fashion if the money ran out - without the board's approval. He does have direct charge of protecting the company's assets. The board could demand otherwise, but without any change in direction from above, it is clear Gunn will run everything or nothing. Although, I think that Gunn is a supporter of the LD trains in general, I don't think he lets his business decisions for Amtrak be driven to any real extent by his personal beliefs. They may have motivated him to take the job, but that's about the end of it. Someday, when he retires again, we may hear from him directly, but now all we can do is guess at it. -Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/) Reply trains61 Member sinceDecember 2002 From: US 12 posts Posted by trains61 on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 10:08 AM Mr. Gunn is not a person to cry wolf. As stated previously in this post, " He is a factual person". In the mean time President Bush operates on business principles," Show me the profit". However, there are very few transit systems out there that operate solely from the income from the fare box. They mostly all lose money. What needs to be considered is the intangibles such as providing MASS transit and removing cars from the highways, when reliable,speedy and convenient transit is availiable. On behalf of south central Arizona, Mr Gunns predessesors did`nt make any friends when they decided after the derailment west of Phoenix, On the west Phoenix line, that they would not pay any of the cost to repair and maintain the trackage. UP/SP then said,"O.K. we will just make that line dormant." Now the 6th largest city in the U.S. has no direct Amtrak service. No bus service from the nearest Amtrak station in Maricopa approx. 40 miles from Phoenix. Hence the apathy. Subsequently people could care less about the plight of Amtrak down here. Its the same story with other rural areas that Amtrak serves or used to serve. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 10:22 AM Thats funny stuff, just a bigger version of what is happening to the amtrack lines across the Missouri Sedalia Sub and River Route....course if Amtrak could try and make some money....oh well Reply Edit jockellis Member sinceMay 2002 From: Just outside Atlanta 422 posts Posted by jockellis on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 10:51 AM The smart Congressmen we have will not let AMTRAK die for purely personal reasons. They would all have to get new jobs after the next elections because their opponents would jump all over the fact that they allowed an American tradition to die and stuck in the knives. The next round of elections would be like Kerry and his Vietnam service; there would be no other issue because the current Congressmen would never have a chance to put an end to their opponents' jabs at this sore spot. Now, it might be a good idea for members of this forum who live in the various states to point this out to the staffs of their representatives by calling their regional offices. You would be doing everyone concerned a big favor. Of course, if you are planning to run for office next time, call them and say you want AMTRAK killed. Jock Ellis Jock Ellis Cumming, GA US of A Georgia Association of Railroad Passengers Reply rich747us Member sinceJanuary 2002 124 posts Posted by rich747us on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 11:49 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by gfjwilmde It just goes to show that the priorities of our government are misguided. They are the puppets of the corporations that are carried on and break the backs of all the working classes of the world. I hope when they go to sleep at night, that their beds aren't to full with all the money they have stolen from us or they may not get a good night's sleep. In a few months, there will be approximently 20,000 more employees out on the street. I'm sure all of you neo-facist ultra-Christian right-wing Republicans hypocrits will excited to know this. GLENN A R E A L AND D E V O T E D RAILROADER!!!! A R E A L AND D E V O T E D AMTRAKER A R E A L L Y A N G R Y AND D I S G U S T E D AMERICAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Excuse me, but just for the record..... 1.) I am a Christian 2.) I am a Republican 3.) I SUPPORT AMTRAK! It's not fair to assume that someone is opposed to Amtrak on the basis that they are Christian and Republican. Just because I'm a Republican does not mean I agree 100% with my party. Please think before you speak. Thank you. When there's a tie at the crossing.....YOU LOOSE! STOP, LOOK, LISTEN, AND LIVE! GOD BLESS CONRAIL!</font id="blue"> 1976-1999 (R.I.P.) Reply trainboyH16-44 Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: Mile 7.5 Laggan Sub., Great White North 4,201 posts Posted by trainboyH16-44 on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 12:46 PM No...NO...NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO[V][tdn][tdn][tdn]WHY JEEBUS, WHY?! I was planning to take the Empire Builder next time I'm down south from the great white north. At least there are SOME profitale trains running, right? Please tell me I'm right! Trainboy Go here for my rail shots! http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=9296 Building the CPR Kootenay division in N scale, blog here: http://kootenaymodelrailway.wordpress.com/ Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 3:43 PM I love trains and believe people will ride them. I've always been pro-Amtrak, but after the last several years I'm about ready to say let it go. Once moving people on trains is not known by the AMTRAK name any more as someone said some train system to move people will hopefully come about in its place, maybe somthing even better. But if it doesn't, well it's sad but I guess it's not the end of the world. I wonder who will get all of this passenger motive power and rolling stock if that happens. Reply Edit RudyRockvilleMD Member sinceSeptember 2001 From: US 1,015 posts Posted by RudyRockvilleMD on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 9:46 PM This is for Jock Ellis. I doubt if too many people care one way or the other what happens to Amtrak or to railroad passenger service in general. How many Representatives or Senators have been defeated because they failed to back Amtrak? Reply oltmannd Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: Atlanta 11,968 posts Posted by oltmannd on Thursday, March 24, 2005 7:13 AM I wonder if Amtrak isn't isn't viewed as a "middle class entitlement" and, as such, it would be very dangerous for Congress to mess with it to any great extent. Middle class entitlement programs can prove to be very difficult to mess with. In GA, there is a HOPE college scholarship program that pays college tuition for any student with a B avg or better. Most of it goes to middle class students. Attempts to change it or add a means test have met fierce resistance, so far. -Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/) Reply jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Friday, March 25, 2005 12:23 AM One more thing for those who complain about paying taxes. If you think the subsidy is bad, wait until you get the bill for post shut-down expenses. The government will be on the hook for an amount about double the cost of catching up on the deferred maintenance "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply bbrant Member sinceFebruary 2001 415 posts Posted by bbrant on Friday, March 25, 2005 5:21 AM If Amtrak goes into full shutdown I won't complain a bit about paying taxes because it's not going to happen. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, March 25, 2005 6:18 AM If A/Trak is "dying" why are they talking of rebuilding the NE corridor? Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Friday, March 25, 2005 7:51 AM ....I often wonder how the authorities in Amtrak "plan" ahead of ANY maintenance work or even try to make improvements since the threat of no or less government suport has prevailed for years and years each funding period. I don't see how it has been maintained as well as it has under such "working" conditions....How they planned for anything new is beyond me. I hope it does continue and I would like to see major improvements in so doing as well. Fact remains the proposed funding level of "0" doesn't present very good possibilities of that happening. Quentin Reply CANADIANPACIFIC2816 Member sinceMarch 2005 From: SIOUX FALLS, SOUTH DAKOTA 2,483 posts Posted by CANADIANPACIFIC2816 on Friday, March 25, 2005 1:30 PM Since the very beginning, Amtrak has never turned a profit. And I don't think it ever will, not as long as it is funded by the Federal Government. And WHEN has the Federal Government ever managed anything properly without screwing things up? I believe that private enterprise could manage Amtrak a lot better than the govenment..............a LOT better, and earn a profit at the same time. I am PROUD to be a Right Wing, Christian, Conservative Republican!! Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, March 25, 2005 1:39 PM The Federal government did a pretty good job with World War II, the landing on the moon, the building of the Panama Canal, the Interstate HIghway System, cleaning up the nation's food supply, developing the atomic bomb and a couple of other little projects. True, it is not as efficient and well-run as, say, Enron, but it is amazing what it can do. Reply Edit Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Friday, March 25, 2005 2:13 PM ....Rail passenger transportation in this country running a profit.... a pipe dream. Won't happen. Priviate or as it is managed now. It is a service not a business that is going to make a profit. Would be nice but just won't happen. Doesn't happen very many places in the free world....if any. Quentin Reply Junctionfan Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: St.Catharines, Ontario 3,770 posts Posted by Junctionfan on Friday, March 25, 2005 3:25 PM I don't know why people think the solution for Amtrak is private enterprise. If private enterprise really wanted to do passenger service, the railroads would still be running passenger trains and you can't tell me the railroads aren't private enterprise. Let the government continue to do it. Eventually it will learn to fund things and run things better provide that the voters/taxpayers a.k.a shareholders/investors makes sure the board of directors and the CEO a,k,a Congress and the President do there job right in that aspect. You can't expect the government to do anything unless you the people appear to really care and make it a political nightmare on their part. Being voters for some time now, I would have thought you would have realized that by now and adjusted tachtics accordingly. Andrew Reply bbrant Member sinceFebruary 2001 415 posts Posted by bbrant on Friday, March 25, 2005 3:26 PM Pipe dream or not, I have to agree with CanadianPacific2816. Reply CANADIANPACIFIC2816 Member sinceMarch 2005 From: SIOUX FALLS, SOUTH DAKOTA 2,483 posts Posted by CANADIANPACIFIC2816 on Friday, March 25, 2005 4:44 PM When it comes to private enterprise running Amtrak, I have to agree with junctionfan. The private carriers do not want to mess with passenger trains because they can not compete with the Interstate highway system in this country, people having two cars in their garages, the airlines, etc. They got out of the passenger business for the plain and simple reason that they were losing too much money. And even if a few of the class 1 carriers wanted to go back to offering passenger service, they would have a tough time doing it because the infrastructure, such as passenger car fleets, is not there anymore. Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Friday, March 25, 2005 4:59 PM Fellows.....I will discuss the situation of trying to create, manage, fund and run our rail passenger system but I really do not care to thrash politics with it back and forth...Really no point in that. We won't change any opinions from this end and the same will not happen coming towards us. Fair enough. Quentin Reply klahm Member sinceDecember 2001 52 posts Posted by klahm on Friday, March 25, 2005 9:39 PM The universalists will object, but I, an intermittent Amtrak patron over the past 4 years, think that it's time to try another way. Rail makes sense and has a chance to make a reasonable, tho not 100%, farebox return where the density of cities is high, public transportation infrastructure within cities is significant, or scenery justifies "cruise trains". Elsewhere, it can't possibly compete with cars and Southwest without a monumental cash infusion into infrastructure that will never be recovered in fares. But a better way cannot be legislated as a step-change. Give David Gunn the money to put the infrastructure into "a state of good repair", while commencing state consortium pilot projects to operate trains differently (contract out, public/private partnerships, etc.) in several regions. Learn from them and add more every two years for ten. Then rationalize Amtrak as we know it today into something else, whether devolved to the states, an infrastructure provider, or facilitating contractor, based upon real-world experience and conceptual experiments, not political dogma. To take a rational approach to Amtrak reform is too much to ask for politicians who seek simplistic, sound-bite answers to all issues. But, if enough folks urge rationality, perhaps something other than maintenance of the dreary status quo will result when Congress engages in the sausage-stuffing that is the Federal budget process. Had a graduated approach been initiated 10 years ago, we would now be reaching a permanent solution, without the years wasted with imaginary "glide slopes" and "mixed" trains including fault-prone rolling stock. Reply bbrant Member sinceFebruary 2001 415 posts Posted by bbrant on Saturday, March 26, 2005 10:49 AM Quentin - You mentioned that a profitable Amtrak is a pipedream. I'm trying to understand why. My thinking is that any business should have at least two basic goals: 1. Provide a good product and 2. turn a profit. I look at it this way, if I were to open my own business I would do it for those reasons. If I fail to provide a good product the result is a profit loss and evetually I'd be out of businees. Likewise, if I mismanage my business I'd end up taking a loss and have to close shop. This is the approach I believe Amtrak should take. If they could turn a profit on their own they wouldn't need to rely on gov. funding that may or not be available and could avoid the headaches of worrying about it. Just my two cents worth. Reply Junctionfan Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: St.Catharines, Ontario 3,770 posts Posted by Junctionfan on Saturday, March 26, 2005 11:51 AM You can't make a profit if the people don't like what you are selling. That is a major problem for Amtrak-the service stinks either schedule wise or gereral service wise and until it improves, people won't use it unless they have to. Amtrak has become a last resort; a back-up plan of travel. Andrew Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Saturday, March 26, 2005 1:00 PM ... Brian....I subscribe to running a business for a profit. And as you relate, if it doesn't produce that profit it will be eliminated in a certain amount of time. For sure no argument with those generally accepted facts.....Turn back the clock and we find the railroads of this country running passenger trains thousands of miles across this great country...for years, providing a service but with a few exceptions not turning a profit...Under federal conditions it was somewhat difficult for these railroads just to up and abandon these services and the situation finally got to a point the losses {operating expenses}, added up to make or break some roads...Fast forward to the folks that created the NARP and got the movement going that eventually {the government}, took over a smaller network of our national rail passenger service with the exception of a few railroads not choosing to join....Fast forward farther yet and we find this rail passenger service now labeled AMTRAK and it is structured to haul passengers as a service to our country and not necessarly a {business}, structure that is going to make money...It is a SERVICE say similar to what the Post Office does...conduct a service for us citizens of our great country...Don't think it makes much of a profit but we surely benefit from it...So if enough of our citizens want this service it makes sense for a country as affluent as it is to figure out a way to fund this system. Of course improvements should always be used where they make sense no matter what we do....No different with Amtrak...{Improvements, that is}....We sure seem to fund "services" for other parts of this world so why not a few along the way for our own folks... Quentin Reply bbrant Member sinceFebruary 2001 415 posts Posted by bbrant on Saturday, March 26, 2005 8:49 PM Do you think there could or would ever be a profitable rail passenger in the country. Take, for example, your post office analogy. When it comes to the day-to-day stuff, they're the ones most people turn to. However, they have viable competition from non-government companies such as Fed-Ex, UPS and Airborne for priorty/overnight shipments. Do you think there could ever be a rail passenger version of Fed-Ex, UPS, etc...? Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, March 26, 2005 10:07 PM Just a layman's view, but I think since our economic vitality today is based on auto/highway culture, our political structure quite naturally will continue to support that. To have a genuinely profitable rail service I think would take a major economic development that incorporates rail service as an integral part of it that in effect "guarantees" profitability. Reply Edit Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Saturday, March 26, 2005 10:14 PM ...Never say never...but no, I think hauling passengers via rail {by priviate business}, in this country with an exception here and there a possibility, not probability...at some time. But doubtful. By it's design of business it is really not a structure to make money. Quentin Reply AntonioFP45 Member sinceDecember 2003 From: Good ol' USA 9,633 posts Posted by AntonioFP45 on Saturday, March 26, 2005 10:18 PM If gasoline prices continue to climb over the next several years, more citizens may pressure the government for a greater investment in rail. Bullet trains would be practical in dense population centers but "high speed" conventional long and short distance trains that run 90 to 110 mph would be cheaper and more practical between most cities. We had them years ago running on 2 and 3 track mainlines!! Passing freight trains wasn't too much of a problem then. It's just too bad that due to high taxes and maintenance that the railroads reduced double track mainlines to single track. "I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!" Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Sunday, March 27, 2005 9:25 AM ...It is a great loss that as mentioned above...we once had massive capacity on many main lines making passenger traffic fluid for the most part being largly separated. Example, the east - west main of the Pennsylvania RR from the NY area to Chicago area had this capacity....One could stand at a station and watch lumbering heavy freights pass and on another track a pasenger train slip by at a very respectable speed without delay...Guess we have made progress....Sure we have airlines...Much faster, but this conversation on these pages has been of rail transportation systims...and perhaps it is still viable for sections of our country and mileages to be determined in lengths and other corridors as well. Quentin Reply Paul Milenkovic Member sinceJuly 2004 2,741 posts Posted by Paul Milenkovic on Sunday, March 27, 2005 3:55 PM QUOTE: If gasoline prices continue to climb over the next several years, more citizens may pressure the government for a greater investment in rail. How much fuel saving can we expect from substitution for rail or autos in intercity transport? Do you have any numbers based on Amtrak operations or European train operations? If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks? Reply Valleyline Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: US 71 posts Posted by Valleyline on Monday, March 28, 2005 7:29 AM Amtrak may be dead but high density corridor services will live on and grow, probably under other management. Amtrak has been unable to break out of its one train per day mentality on long distance routes since it was formed in 1971. This, coupled with a lack of passenger related infrastructure and inconvenient or non existant passenger amenities in all but the major stops, is as much of a problem for potential passengers as is Amtrak's inability to provide reliable service. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Monday, March 28, 2005 7:43 AM Europeans use trains because there price gallon for gas makes ours look cheap, cheap cheap even at $2.50 to a gallon. To compare them to us in my opinion is like comparing a apple & a orange. [:D][:p] Originally posted by Paul Milenkovic Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply 12345 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. 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QUOTE: Originally posted by kevinstheRRman HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHHAAH!!!!!!!!! I LOVE IT!! here we go again, Right Vs. Left. That solves a lot of problems. Instead of Debating the actual issue, we come short and insult each other because somebody doesn't believe the exact same thing you do. GOLD! this is GOLD! KEEP IT UP~!! popcorn is almost done!
QUOTE: Originally posted by conrailman Maybe Rob Krebs from the BNSF could do better job than Dave Gunn? Mr.Krebs made the BNSF the top Railroad in the U.S. Just Maybe he could Make Amtrak a World Class System?[:D][8D]
QUOTE: Originally posted by gfjwilmde If you think it's better to spend more money overseas, rebuilding the infastructures of foriegn countries, than to rebuild the ones in your country, then you need a 'check up from the neck up'.
QUOTE: Originally posted by gfjwilmde To MP57313, that may sound like a solution, but consider this, out nation's Coast Guard actually falls under the Department of Transportation, eventhough they are sometimes included in the Defense Department's affairs from time to time. GLENN
QUOTE: Originally posted by conrailman This isn't a Fair System we give the Highways 35 Billion and Airlines 16 Billion, and Amtrak just 360 Million is just not Fair this year? Congress Should Give Amtrak 5 cents of the Gas Taxes we pay in Federal Taxes, I think the Federal taxes 18 cent. off of 18 cents we give amtrak 5 cents of that instead of giving at 5 cent to the Government to give it to Amtrak.[:D][8D]
QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper I'd rather treat them like the fire department, the police, the armed services, the street clearners, the local symphiny orchestra ,and the school system, all performng necessary services. Including the symphony orchestra.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar ....I believe Mr. Gunn said over a year ago if he doesn't have the funds he indicated was needed to run the system safely and properly, less budget money would mean shut down time. He had structured the system about as lean as he could and still run it safely. I believe he was speaking of the complete system.
QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton Don I am pretty sure that Congress had some hand in the labor protection agreements. Recall reading something about it somewhere. (How is that for an authority.) I'll admit I don't remember the details. It is sort of moot now, because it is part of the contract, and I don't think it is possible for Amtrak to unilaterally back out of the deal, so long as it is a continuing operation. Fat chance that the unions would even let that item get on the table. It is unfortunate, but the business world is full of managers who either cannot or will not provide employees with the resources necessary to get a job done. These managers will use words like "It's your job, I don't care how you do it, just get it done." If not direct, it is implied that a career or employment is on the line. Dave Gunn has never done ego trips and he is not doing one now. As has been mentioned before, Gunn had to be talked into coming out of retirement to take the Amtrak job and there is no way any threats of career or employment conditions could cause him any concern. Like the news or not, Gunn is merely stating what has to happen at the point when there is no longer sufficient ca***o continue operations. If you look carefully, you will see that Gunn is not saying that he will shut down Amtrak if government funds are not budgeted or for that matter if the second step, the appropriation of funds (the actual authority to distribute the funds) fails. What he is saying is that when Amtrak's cash reaches a certain level, it will not be able to continue operations. It should be noted that Gunn probably does not have the authority to shut down Amtrak. That kind of authority rest with the Amtrak Board of Directors and of the board members, Gunn is the only director that was not appointed by the President Bush.
Jock Ellis Cumming, GA US of A Georgia Association of Railroad Passengers
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QUOTE: If gasoline prices continue to climb over the next several years, more citizens may pressure the government for a greater investment in rail.
Originally posted by Paul Milenkovic Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply 12345 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.